madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[tp4tissue]

Any suggestions how I would go about diagnosing and hopefully correcting the problem?

Buy a colorimeter, then you SEE ALL. Buy calibrite, do not buy datacolor. Datacolor = trash.

[tp4tissue]

ask tp4tissue just because we finally have a gamma for bt 709 doesn't mean everything before that is mastered at that gamma or even today. i don't have a solution obviously...

So what you're effectively saying is huhn, that calibration is a lie, and we're all complicit in this duplicitous scheme which autistic persons such as ourselves have self-imposed.

Mother always said I should go outside and get a girlfriend. But no, I stay in the house, play with the colorimeter and complain about gamma tracking with strangers on the internet. :rolleyes:

[Manni]

So what you're effectively saying is huhn, that calibration is a lie, and we're all complicit in this duplicitous scheme which autistic persons such as ourselves have self-imposed.

Mother always said I should go outside and get a girlfriend. But no, I stay in the house, play with the colorimeter and complain about gamma tracking with strangers on the internet. :rolleyes:

Calibration isn’t a lie, but Huhn is correct, there is no gamma standard for rec-709 / HD content. Most recent Blurays are mastered to BT-1886, so as long as your meter is good enough the read the true black level of your display and calculate the correct targets for the power 2.4 modified curve (which will be specific to your display), you can get an accurate calibration for these, but unfortunately not all blurays are mastered to BT1886.

They can be mastered to anything from power gamma 2.2 to 2.5, which means that if you don’t adjust gamma on a per-title basis until you find the (calibrated) gamma curve that LOOKS the most correct to your eyes for each title, you can crush blacks (significantly) or raise them on a per title basis.

With HDR it’s a bit better because all consumer content use PQ and a BT2020 container, but you have plenty of other issues.

Bottom line is that you definitely need more than one gamma curve for HD content if you want to see each title accurately, and there is no way to guarantee that your pick will be correct one. So yes, there are established calibration practices but no, there is no standard.

[tp4tissue]

Calibration isn’t a lie, but Huhn is correct, there is no gamma standard for rec-709 / HD content. Most recent Blurays are mastered to BT-1886, so as long as your meter is good enough the read the true black level of your display


Here's the thing, the i1d3 Can supposedly read 0.003 nits. However, I've been told it can only do that in pro software like ColorSpace which most of us are too cheapskate to buy.

From what I can tell the i1d3 in argyll + displaycal, it starts to get wonky around 0.03nits. So, near-true-black readings don't seem that accurate, you can clearly see a slight color cast in the darkest tones, if you stare at them in the dark at night. :sly:

I'm not saying this is THAT important, just want to mention that calibration has its limits.

The other issue is dithering. My oled is supposed to have a 14bit processing pipe, and I would agree, it does dither those very low blacks. However I've noticed that in order to achieve very dark draws, it can not address per pixel, so it has to raise around 50pixels width of dithering patches around a single pixel element.

What this means is, true black is kind of A LIE for oleds, because outside of test patterns, only large black patches can be "true black", anything with an ounce of noise in it, will get dithered brighter than black. So for example black hair, NONE of it can be true black, because you have elements which are not black, and it takes 50 pixels of non-black dithering to draw any of those elements.

So the way they tout, perfect black detail, the reality is, other than those black bars, almost nothing on screen is TRUE BLACK.

The contrast ratio of Oleds is therefore effectively not Infinity:1 in real content. It's more like 100,000:1 in HDR, 10,000:1 in SDR, and that's being extreeemely generous.

[Amuat]

Yeah, I've come to understand that as much as I would like to use only one monitor profile for SDR and one for HDR, the truth is that individual videos seem to require individual settings to look good (or individual "batches" of videos, like a TV series or a season of one from the same source), without there being anything inherently "wrong" with some videos (of course there is actually something wrong in certain poor quality ones, but you know what I mean), your settings, your software/hardware or your monitor. Do correct me if I'm wrong here, you who have more knowledge and experience.

This has also made me think as an amateur videographer how much sense it really makes to preview my videos in filmmaker mode as opposed to my custom profile for SDR. I mean how many will actually watch them (if at all, maybe my mother at least) with anything near the visual properties my OLED happens to present them with in filmmaker mode and within the same external environment in regards to lighting and such (FWIW, all my lights outside the bathroom are Philips Hue, so I use the built-in Ambilight extension system provided by my Philips monitor)? Even though neutrality is such an elusive thing, does it still make more sense to review them in this manner, or should I just let go and enjoy them more with my regular settings, and also with madVR's compression artifact reducer as I do with all other videos? I just don't know. I guess I'm having a sort of visual fidelity existential crisis here...

[tp4tissue]

preview my videos in filmmaker mode as opposed to my custom profile for SDR. I mean how many will actually watch them (if at all, maybe my mother at least) with anything near the visual properties my OLED happens to present them with in filmmaker mode and within the same external environment

In application terms, it seems more useful to think of the rec709/dcip3 colorspace limits as safety boundaries. A middle ground where regardless of what the consumer uses, squeeze or expand, it won't look "completely" wrong.

I never watch SDR clamped to rec709 boundaries, it looks extremely washed out to me, I just don't enjoy it. I let big gamut of modern displays take over for SDR. I calibrate whitepoint and gamma, that's it. 3DLut in saturation intent is also good if I want to reign in the colors a little, or if the display has a weird looking hue twist.

Madvr has inbuilt gamma transform, so it's really convenient, you only need 1x 2.4 or 2.6 profile for SDR.. Just hotkey up and down.

I wish Madvr had an SRGB curve built in, that would be useful for the "other" category of SDR content, old blueray/dvds.

HDR, there's nothing anyone cna do gamut wise because of ABL, so white point and eotf-curve is again all you can effectively modify.

[Amuat]

I never watch SDR clamped to rec709 boundaries, it looks extremely washed out to me, I just don't enjoy it. I let big gamut of modern displays take over for SDR.

I don't know if this is what you mean, but I do have HDR constantly on now that I have HDMI 2.1 connection and can keep both 10 bit color depth and YCbCr 4:4:4 on without having to sacrifice refresh rate. Some say that SDR content looks wrong with HDR on, and perhaps there might be some subtle color distortion, but all I can tell is that it just looks clearly better to me on the whole.

P. S. Just realized yesterday while watching videos I had shot at night and had used gain to up the brightness (this was before I realized how ugly it looks) that the resulting noisy pixellated grey mess is exactly what I see on some videos in place of proper black.

[tp4tissue]

I don't know if this is what you mean, but I do have HDR constantly on now that I have HDMI 2.1 connection and can keep both 10 bit color depth and YCbCr 4:4:4 on without having to sacrifice refresh rate. Some say that SDR content looks wrong with HDR on, and perhaps there might be some subtle color distortion, but all I can tell is that it just looks clearly better to me on the whole.


Uh..... HAHA, this would be the first I've heard of anyone doing that.

That is pretty extreme Amuat. I would advise against watching videos like this.

But let's clarify things a bit, By HDR-On, do you mean you're using the HDR windows 10 option? 444ycbcr 10bit doesn't have to be HDR, it can do the output in SDR. HDR is separate flag, that the TV must recognize.

[Siso]

Is there a way to make madvr save the setting "source black level - decrease" I've added?

[Amuat]

But let's clarify things a bit, By HDR-On, do you mean you're using the HDR windows 10 option? 444ycbcr 10bit doesn't have to be HDR, it can do the output in SDR. HDR is separate flag, that the TV must recognize.

Yeah, I know, but I figured why not just keep HDR always on instead of constantly changing back and forth. And yes, Windows 11 option(s), which means my monitor is constantly on HDR mode with its own specific profiles and whatnot. Why is it extreme to do this?

[huhn]

because it will use the wrong transfer function for sdr.

you can calibrate that out using a 3d lut but without you just get trash on the screen.

[tp4tissue]

Everything in windows will still look a bit dim and wrong.

[huhn]

if you overcome the sRGB part you can set the brightness of SDR inw in 11 and match it with SDR brightness.

or with other word if your display is calibrated to sRGB which windows assume you to do it will already look pretty much the same.

[tp4tissue]

You can calibrate it out if the display is well behaved. For example cheaper, low end displays that do effectively no active contrast/ tonemapping on its own.

On most newer displays, when you go into HDR, they invariably start doing funky things that make a mess of calibration.

[Amuat]

Thing is, it looks identical, if not better, on HDR (just checked this to be sure). I mean doesn't the fact that the monitor is on HDR mean that it displays wider dynamic range and color gamut no matter the content? Isn't that the whole point of having the option to play SDR games on HDR?

"Though many newer games are developed for HDR, some older games are SDR only, such as games that use DirectX 11 or DirectX 12. But with Auto HDR, that changes. When you turn on Auto HDR, the color range and brightness is automatically increased to HDR. It’s a feature that lets you play and see your older games in a new light with HDR on your HDR-capable display."

Might very well be that it's just a placebo that all videos seem to look slightly better with HDR, but if I don't have some serious visual impairment, I can say with complete certainty that they absolutely do not look worse.

[huhn]

Thing is, it looks identical, if not better, on HDR (just checked this to be sure). I mean doesn't the fact that the monitor is on HDR mean that it displays wider dynamic range and color gamut no matter the content? Isn't that the whole point of having the option to play SDR games on HDR?
no. you can not do that and it does not do that.
it put sRGB in HDR not using the wider gamut at all.

"Though many newer games are developed for HDR, some older games are SDR only, such as games that use DirectX 11 or DirectX 12. But with Auto HDR, that changes. When you turn on Auto HDR, the color range and brightness is automatically increased to HDR. It’s a feature that lets you play and see your older games in a new light with HDR on your HDR-capable display."
a marketing...
just get an old samsung TV they have 2000 HZ+.

Might very well be that it's just a placebo that all videos seem to look slightly better with HDR, but if I don't have some serious visual impairment, I can say with complete certainty that they absolutely do not look worse.
sad to hear

[Sunspark]

One thing I wonder about, and I don't know where it is getting the data from, in the f.lux options>driver info where it lists chromaticities, etc. it says I have an sRGB gamut of 100% and an AdobeRGB gamut of 93%. Is it really getting those values from the display, or from the displayport to hdmi adapter I have?

[Asmodian]

No. It is simply assuming the Windows default color space of sRGB, which is 93% of AdobeRGB. Nothing to do with your display or adapter.

[tp4tissue]

No. It is simply assuming the Windows default color space of sRGB, which is 93% of AdobeRGB. Nothing to do with your display or adapter.

So it's a transfer function mapping SRGB tone curve into 2084 ?

Is that the correct understanding, Smodian? :scared:

[huhn]

it assumes sRGB.
so it does sRGB to linear and then to PQ which will ruin the tonecurve for stuff that doesn't have a sRGB curve which is pretty much every video.

[tp4tissue]

Does it do that outside of the HDR mode? Assumes SRGB?

In HDR, if it's assuming srgb, will it compress gamut as well.

[huhn]

yes it assumes sRGB but is does nothing in sdr mode.

[Sunspark]

I wondered because some people with laptops had a reading lower than 100%. I would need a calibrator to verify the reading but thought if someone has it installed it might be interesting for them to look in that location to see what it says their display is.

[huhn]

why wouldn't it be?
the steam decks screen is so bad it's like 70%

[Amuat]

Do all of you people really see only "trash on the screen" when watching SDR content with HDR on? I compared them again multiple times to be absolutely sure, but there simply is no difference. This is reality for me no matter what the theory predicts, no sense arguing about it. Makes me wonder though what could be the reason for this if it actually is radically different for other people.

And what is it exactly that you see? Is it like trying to watch DV content without the proper software, washed out and extremely distorted colors? That could legitimately be called trash on the screen.

[Charky]

If it looks good to your eyes and you enjoy it, where is the problem?

Personally, I appreciate a moderate level of motion interpolation (around 4/10 on an LG OLED). Surprisingly, certain self-proclaimed purists seem to take offense at this preference and think I should be murdered. Who cares? Fuck them: it's my setup.

[Amuat]

That is exactly my attitude, but I'm still quite curious what is going on here from a technical point of view. And regarding motion interpolation, hell, I have completely maximized it. It felt immediately completely natural to me (unlike madVR's smooth motion, which I find extremely jarring), and when watching a video without it it feels what I imagine reality would look like if its "fps" suddenly took a nosedive. But to each their own.

[QBhd]

If it looks good to your eyes and you enjoy it, where is the problem?

Personally, I appreciate a moderate level of motion interpolation (around 4/10 on an LG OLED). Surprisingly, certain self-proclaimed purists seem to take offense at this preference and think I should be murdered. Who cares? Fuck them: it's my setup.

You actually kind of need a little because OLED suffers from "stutter", which I think is because of the sample and hold effect or something along those lines... Mainly noticeable in high contrast motion scenes. I prefer a setting of 2/10.... played around with 3/10, but it started to veer too close to the soap-opera-effect.

edit: Found this explanation
What is an OLED stutter?
This is different from Judder. The cause is playing back low frame rate content, such as 24p, with a very fast response time display. Because an OLED shows the frame so quickly, the time between the frames, about 42ms for 24p, is significant and it stutters.Jan 30, 2024

QB

[mclingo]

Agreed I also used a little bit of interpolation as the refresh rate of the pixels on oled is so quick there is no blurring between frames like lcd which can make low frame rate movies look jarring on panning shots. However I've turned all mine off now because I decided to try using smooth motion in MadVR, I always hated it but I thought I would try it again recently and it seemed to be better. I've now been using it for a couple of weeks and I'm completely used to it now my much prefer this to frame rate matching as I often find with some videos at 30 and 50 Hertz I get skips and judders even though madvr is showing no frame skips or repeats,it's probably my tv or my receiver but I've never found a fix for this beyond using Smooth motion.

Smooth motion is definitely not for everyone though, I absolutely hated it back in the day I don't know whether it's been updated or changed with recent updates, it was absolutely unwatchable for me before it seems pretty decent now.

[tp4tissue]

I thought smooth motion is only for non integer multiples of 23.976/24fps. Does it do anything in integer multiples?

I use 119.88 and 120hz on my oled for movies for near-perfect-cadence.

[huhn]

it fixes frame repeats and drops from sync issues.

[QBhd]

...I've turned all mine off now because I decided to try using smooth motion in MadVR, I always hated it but I thought I would try it again recently and it seemed to be better. ...

I tried the SM... but it's not very good, it blurs too many frames together. WASAPI audio render to get rid of any judder... and a slight interpolation in the LG (2/10) to reduce any stutter.

QB

[mclingo]

i'm already using WASAPI and still get judder, it only happens in 4k movies though so It could be an issue with my TV, its a first GEN 4k LG 3D OLED EF950v, yes its still working like new incredibly, no burn in, bought it way back in 2015, might have had some bugs with 30p and 50p that never got picked up or fixed.

I've got used to Smooth motion now, did take a couple of weeks before I stopped noticing the slight blurring on fast movement, just looks normal now, perfect panning shots all round.

[QBhd]

Judder has nothing to do with the TV... Judder is from frame rates not matching. If it only happens in 4k, it sounds like your system is not pumping out the frames fast enough.

QB

[whitestar999]

Judder has nothing to do with the TV... Judder is from frame rates not matching. If it only happens in 4k, it sounds like your system is not pumping out the frames fast enough.

QB

I saw the Monster HTPC sig so would you still suggest getting something from AMD like RX6600 over RTX 2060/3050/3060 for madvr on win 11 nowadays for HDR videos playback or using NGU for image upscaling on non-HDR animated content?

[mclingo]

Judder has nothing to do with the TV... Judder is from frame rates not matching. If it only happens in 4k, it sounds like your system is not pumping out the frames fast enough.

QB

I'm only calling it Judder because I don't really know what to call it, yes it does look like the frames are skipping but it's not happening in Madvr because the frame rates are matching and i get no problems with 1080p material only 4K. madvr registers nothing at all no frame skips, no issues it's all.

[tp4tissue]

NGU is not worth the electricity expense.

As for HDR, I don't know how the newer Nvidia cards do in HDR, but my AMD 79xtx card pop in and out of HDR instantly, no blank screen. My older 1060 has a delay and goes blank screen when NV HDR triggers, and I get loading handshake circles on the TV, sometimes it crashes the mpchc application.

If you're just watching movies, consider going AMD.

Also if you use gamma table, AMD is bulletproof, Nvidia drops its dithering and it's a pain to keep it working consistently.

[QBhd]

I use NGU... I always liked the sharpness of it. I don't use Windows 11 so I can't say what is good for that or not.

QB

[whitestar999]

I use NGU... I always liked the sharpness of it. I don't use Windows 11 so I can't say what is good for that or not.

QB

Thanks for the info. What about windows 10 then? Is RX6600 good enough for madvr on windows 10 nowadays for HDR playback & NGU upscaling for animated non-HDR content? Any points I should keep in mind while getting amd card for madvr nowadays on win 10 compared to nvidia RTX series?

Edit: What about AMD driver issues mentioned here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013

[whitestar999]

NGU is not worth the electricity expense.

As for HDR, I don't know how the newer Nvidia cards do in HDR, but my AMD 79xtx card pop in and out of HDR instantly, no blank screen. My older 1060 has a delay and goes blank screen when NV HDR triggers, and I get loading handshake circles on the TV, sometimes it crashes the mpchc application.

If you're just watching movies, consider going AMD.

Also if you use gamma table, AMD is bulletproof, Nvidia drops its dithering and it's a pain to keep it working consistently.

Thanks! What about the AMD driver issues mentioned here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013

[Klaus1189]

Stay away from RX 5000 and 6000 cards. RX 7000 cards are fine but one issue could be bad also for 7000 series:
https://github.com/Aleksoid1978/VideoRenderer/issues/153#issuecomment-2097405066

But if you don't play interlaced content, no issue.

[QBhd]

I don't play interlaced content, so my 5700XT has been more than awesome... I'm not even sure if I have ever come across any interlaced content since I got the thing, LOL

QB

[Klaus1189]

The only thing which I can not test anymore, I sold my 5700XT some time ago, are the elevated blacks, so the 0-255 full vs. 16-235 limited are ignored.
But that is only in EVR but not in madVR. But I FULLY switched to MPC Video Renderer some time ago.

[tp4tissue]

The only thing which I can not test anymore, I sold my 5700XT some time ago, are the elevated blacks, so the 0-255 full vs. 16-235 limited are ignored.
But that is only in EVR but not in madVR. But I FULLY switched to MPC Video Renderer some time ago.

This is likely a TV bug. :scared:

Did you test with a meter on different screens Klaus.

[Klaus1189]

In this case sadly not a bug of a TV. It came with the 5700XT. Older AMD cards are also fine. And it went away with my rtx30 Nvidia back then.

[tp4tissue]

Thanks! What about the AMD driver issues mentioned here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013

I can confirm 100% with i1d3 measurements, that my 7900xtx does not have elevated blacks.

https://imgur.com/3GRjdTa
https://imgur.com/0ILtFD7
https://imgur.com/94BJN2f

[Klaus1189]

But perhaps fixed by AMD. I can not test anymore. But madVR is fine. Only using EVR shows this bug. If I remember correctly switching to D3D11 in MPC VR also fixed, I mean worked as a workaround. huhn also knows about this issue.

[Klaus1189]

I can confirm 100% that my 7900xtx does not have elevated blacks.

https://imgur.com/3GRjdTa
https://imgur.com/0ILtFD7
https://imgur.com/94BJN2f

Yes 7000 cards are fine.

[huhn]

NGU is not worth the electricity expense.

As for HDR, I don't know how the newer Nvidia cards do in HDR, but my AMD 79xtx card pop in and out of HDR instantly, no blank screen. My older 1060 has a delay and goes blank screen when NV HDR triggers, and I get loading handshake circles on the TV, sometimes it crashes the mpchc application.

If you're just watching movies, consider going AMD.

Also if you use gamma table, AMD is bulletproof, Nvidia drops its dithering and it's a pain to keep it working consistently.

typical:
https://github.com/Maassoft/ColorControl

I can confirm 100% with i1d3 measurements, that my 7900xtx does not have elevated blacks.

https://imgur.com/3GRjdTa
https://imgur.com/0ILtFD7
https://imgur.com/94BJN2f
he said with EVR are you sure you just read EVR.
BTW. why would anyone need a meter to see if the levels are wrong?

[tp4tissue]

typical:
https://github.com/Maassoft/ColorControl


That only proves my point huhn, why do I need or want to fiddle with this yet-another-loader, when AMD's thingie just works. :D

It's such a core thing to have working right. Nvidia has had this problem for 10 years, they haven't fixed it.