madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[chrisssj2]

Did you try both passthrough HDR to display and tone map HDR using pixel shaders with output video in HDR format checked?

Those are your two best options for HDR with an LG OLED display. There is no magic.

If you are talking about chroma upscaling or dithering, try NGU Anti-Alias or NGU Sharp combined with Error Diffusion option 1 or 2.

That should give you the "best quality" HDR.

Also, set the GPU to RGB rather YCbCr. That will actually lower image quality on a PC.

I use default settings. So upon checking this:
---HDR: "where left to decide by madvr" So changed it like you said to "passthrough to display" but you say use passthrough or HDR using pixelshaders..? which one to choose?
Or did you mean just put the HDR option on pixelshader? If so. what to put @Target peak nits? and tone mapping curve?
---Put error Diffusion on Option 2.
---Put chroma on NGU sharp very high. What about image downscale and image upscale?
---And what about the trade quality for performance tab?
---Tried changing ycbr to rgb but nvidia only allows me to choose 8 bit RGB. So can't choose 10 bit.. I think personally I found ycbr 10/12 bit to look better then 8 bit RGB..? The blacks were more black and colours more vibrant?

[Warner306]

I use default settings. So upon checking this:
---HDR: "where left to decide by madvr" So changed it like you said to "passthrough to display" but you say use passthrough or HDR using pixelshaders..? which one to choose?

Try pixel shaders with HDR output checked. You may or may not prefer it to passthrough. To send the correct metadata to the display, however, the latest Nvidia driver is needed. So playback may stutter with an RTX 2080 due to conflicts with that driver. In that case, go back to 418.91 and stick with passthrough.

Set the target peak nits to 700-1,000 nits;
Tone mapping curve to BT.2390;
Leave color tweaks for fire & explosions at balanced;
Set highlight recovery strength to medium-high.

---Put chroma on NGU sharp very high. What about image downscale and image upscale?

high is a better choice, as very high is a waste of resources for chroma upscaling.


What about image downscale and image upscale?

Neither is required with 4K output.


---And what about the trade quality for performance tab?

Leave them all unchecked.


---Tried changing ycbr to rgb but nvidia only allows me to choose 8 bit RGB. So can't choose 10 bit.. I think personally I found ycbr 10/12 bit to look better then 8 bit RGB..? The blacks were more black and colours more vibrant?

See here:

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=223175&pid=2739438#pid2739438

[tp4tissue]

the i1d3 is notable faster which pretty important for 3D LUT creation.

The speed increases the accuracy by getting more samples in the stability window, but in this case, because TVs and non-Pro monitors are highly unstable to begin with, it's not going to make much of a difference.

For example, my samsung tv's white point algorithm doesn't always arrive at precisely the same gains between backlight setting changes.

The room temperature also greatly affects LED temperature, and white led has +/- 10-20% luminance difference between operable temps

Things like this will add to the delta E far greater than what the meter can improve with measurement speed.

If you catch the i1d3 at sale price, then that's one thing, but facing non-sale prices, There's no reason not to choose Cmunki instead.

$140? if I had known that I would've got one.. Uhh.. Someone should've posted here. T_T

Yea, it was sold by adorama camera on Rakuten during rakuten's 20% off black friday promotion. So, $165 (sale price) * 0.8 = $132 + Tax ~$140

[SirMaster]

What do you guys think about this?

https://www.amazon.com/Wacom-EODIS3-DCWA-Color-Manager/dp/B01B96L2QE

It's just a i1d3 right?

Any reason to get the official brand over this? I'm only going to use it with open source software and drivers anyways like ArgyllCMS, DisplayCal, HCFR, madVR.

[tp4tissue]

At the difference of $15 , y risk it ? if it was the difference of $50, yea, I'd give it a go.

[SirMaster]

At the difference of $15 , y risk it ?

Becasue the x-rite was $259 earlier when I just looked for these :P

All the websites are starting to sync the current $201 price now. First Amazon, now B&H.

[tp4tissue]

u could wait for Bk Fri, should be $165 ish

[huhn]

how can you make sure the room temperature doesn't change to much in a measurement with speed even through it doesn't matter anyway heating the screen(and meter) by simply running has far more effects on temperature and is a default calibration part anyway. the number of patches is just defined by the time you are willing to spend on it and the speed of the meter.

[toki]

I do it for quality. I don't care how long it takes. I always go for the most amount of patches. With that said, this is where the rabbit hole part comes in, if you're anything like me you'll always be looking at it thinking you can squeeze just that little bit more out of your display.

[huhn]

you know there is no real limited to the number of patches. there are theoretically enough patches to measurer for over 10 years or was it 100?

[tp4tissue]

You guys are overthinking this. The TV and Sensor are unstable over 1.5-2 hours.

Measurements you take exceeding 1.5 to 2 hours (has a probability) of being NON relevant to the data within that 2 hours.

A very good human eye on a person who's trained to know precisely what to look for can discern quality up to ~2-3000 patches. Any more than that is purely academic. again, if anything more patches will increase the average error.

The only time where EXCESSIVELY many patches may outperform fewer is if the monitor has some really weird behavior. The error will still be higher than fewer patches, but it may fix the busted spot.

[el Filou]

What do you mean "the TV [...] is unstable over 1.5-2 hours"?
Is this only valid for LCDs with local dimming as the LEDs can vary in temperature depending on content displayed?
Once a display is warmed up it should be stable in its responses.

[tp4tissue]

No it absolutely is not. Daily temperature can vary quite alot. even 2 degrees difference changes the backlight characteristics.

The meter also heats up as the photons hit the sensor surface.

There's a very specific reason you should not calibrate for more than 1-2 hours.

Even 2 hours is asking a bit much.

Y'all can relax on this , cuz the outcome colors are Interpolated, it's not a 1:1 matching game where the accuracy increases linearly with ever more patches.

It just needs to define the general shape of the monitor's behavior.

[Asmodian]

madVR, not calibration in general. We do have a good Calibration Thread (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172783).

[chrisssj2]

Try pixel shaders with HDR output checked. You may or may not prefer it to passthrough. To send the correct metadata to the display, however, the latest Nvidia driver is needed. So playback may stutter with an RTX 2080 due to conflicts with that driver. In that case, go back to 418.91 and stick with passthrough.

Set the target peak nits to 700-1,000 nits;
Tone mapping curve to BT.2390;
Leave color tweaks for fire & explosions at balanced;
Set highlight recovery strength to medium-high.


high is a better choice, as very high is a waste of resources for chroma upscaling.



Neither is required with 4K output.



Leave them all unchecked.



See here:

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=223175&pid=2739438#pid2739438

Done checked them all.
As for the link it says recommended:
(madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Full Range RGB 0-255 -> (Display) Output as RGB 0-255

I understand MadVR part, And the GPU is set in Nvidia control panel. but as for the display part I don't remember seeing a 0-255 option.

As to why I can't select RGB 10 bit is because I need to put it at 30 hz.. lol ok so I need to switch this manually each time i watch a movie.. Got it.

I created an nvidia profile for kodi with anisoptric filtering off etc. everything as close to nvidia defaults. And "adaptive power" and "Vsync" on. Pre-render frames @default (3) Did the same for MPC-BE.

Will report back on how it runs!

[el Filou]

In displays, the RGB range setting is sometimes called "HDMI black level" and sometimes the values are called Low/High or Standard/Extended.

You could also just leave the graphics card output on 8-bit for all refresh rates and trust madVR's dithering, it's that good.

[svengun]

If you catch the i1d3 at sale price, then that's one thing, but facing non-sale prices, There's no reason not to choose Cmunki instead.

yeah, I should have opted for that one too, didn't know it existed, would have saved me 120 euro's

any suggestions for which software to use, I have the softw that came with it and SpectraCal Ultimate for Business v 5.6.1

[Warner306]

In displays, the RGB range setting is sometimes called "HDMI black level" and sometimes the values are called Low/High or Standard/Extended.

You could also just leave the graphics card output on 8-bit for all refresh rates and trust madVR's dithering, it's that good.

I think that is joke. It is spelled out in the link provided above, "LG: Black Level - High."

[hotripper]

yeah, I should have opted for that one too, didn't know it existed, would have saved me 120 euro's

any suggestions for which software to use, I have the softw that came with it and SpectraCal Ultimate for Business v 5.6.1

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172783

[tp4tissue]

In displays, the RGB range setting is sometimes called "HDMI black level" and sometimes the values are called Low/High or Standard/Extended.

You could also just leave the graphics card output on 8-bit for all refresh rates and trust madVR's dithering, it's that good.

You gotta double check this setting. Not super sure on LG

But on Samsung, it's either Normal or Low.

On PC mode, normal is 0-255, on low it's 16-235

On OTHER inputs, normal is 16-235, low is 0-255

WTH righ?

[HelmedHorror]

How will Ultra HD Blu-ray content be handled by a monitor like the LG 34GK950F (https://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/lg_34gk950f.htm), which supports up DisplayHDR 400 (https://displayhdr.org/performance-criteria/) and uses 8-bit+FRC (as I understand it , it's 8-bit plus dithering to simulate 10-bit)?

My gut tells me that it will be handled similarly to how SDR monitors handle it. That is, poorly.

Unsurprisingly, I found it impossible to Google this question because I think very few people watch Blu-ray content (i.e., literally Blu-ray discs or rips thereof, not merely Netflix) on a computer monitor. Buuuut I knew just the place to ask! :)

[huhn]

pretty much the same as a TV with 400 nits.

[HelmedHorror]

pretty much the same as a TV with 400 nits.

I don't have a TV and haven't watched a movie on one in over a decade, so I'm not sure what that means :(

[tp4tissue]

@ HelmedHorror

Well, the main issue to work around is that it's ips with a contrast ratio of 1000:1

So , @ the peak 400cd, the black lvl is 0.4cd.

Before worrying about peak brightness, what you need to understand is that the image loses alot of depth without at least a VA-panel. VA has ~2000-3000:1 contrast on pc monitors. On va-Televisions, it goes from 4000:1 to 6000:1

The 10bit SHOULD give you smoother gradient than on 8bit.

But in most cases, Madvr does just as well with 8bit, because it has its own dithering capability.


You may even consider using 144hz w/ LG's Motion blur reduction turned ON.

The MBR cuts the brightness to 234.53cd, but that might actually be better depending on your room stimulus light.

Overall, in a bright room, it should look pretty decent. the high black lvl will however eat most of the dark details.

If you're using this monitor Long term for HDR movies, I recommend getting a colorimeter, so you can adjust blackoutput offset to tease out a just little more black detail, while still maintaining the more contrasty look.

Boo @ 75%
https://imgur.com/XAdPuib

Boo @ 100% (more contrast, but too black for IPS)
https://imgur.com/fjmHt4t

[huhn]

you don't lose dark details with a low CR displays. they just get less dark...

the screen simply has a similar if not better HDR as an entry level LG IPS UHD TV the total majority they sell but this is a gaming screen on top of it.

[el Filou]

@HelmedHorror the last paragraph from the TFTCentral article you linked tells all you need to know about that monitor's HDR mode: basically, it's even worse than in SDR mode.
Setting madVR to tone map using 400 as peak nits and outputting SDR with the display backlight at maximum would give you the best quality IMO.
The monitor still has a larger colour gamut than most SDR screens so you'll still benefit from that.

[tp4tissue]

If by similar HDR you mean lacking contrast. then Yes. hahaha.

IPS blk lvl is too high.

If the image has any dark noise, it can grey cast and fade the entire image.

Had they graded the film FOR IPS, things would be different.

Having high blk lvl is the same as having Missing gamut. Director intent is lost to some degree.

[tp4tissue]

Setting madVR to tone map using 400 as peak nits and outputting SDR with the display backlight at maximum would give you the best quality IMO.


He should try out the 10bit too. Might look nice.

I really don't think 400cd is a good idea here, but yea, try it, keep the room very bright to offset blacks. For 0.4cd to look black or even 0.2 cd, the room basically needs to be as bright as morning sunlight.

[chrisssj2]

Try pixel shaders with HDR output checked. You may or may not prefer it to passthrough. To send the correct metadata to the display, however, the latest Nvidia driver is needed. So playback may stutter with an RTX 2080 due to conflicts with that driver. In that case, go back to 418.91 and stick with passthrough.

Set the target peak nits to 700-1,000 nits;
Tone mapping curve to BT.2390;
Leave color tweaks for fire & explosions at balanced;
Set highlight recovery strength to medium-high.


high is a better choice, as very high is a waste of resources for chroma upscaling.



Neither is required with 4K output.



Leave them all unchecked.



See here:

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=223175&pid=2739438#pid2739438

Just tried your settings. The movie played back fine.
First I was afraid of micro stutters. But I don't think I have any.
Perhaps only when starting the movie/pausing/resuming it.

http://prntscr.com/nkcq5v

Image of the stats on kodi.
Using 12 RGB BIT here.. Don't rly see difference at first glance to ybcr

Tried putting the TV on low blacks during mission impossible 2015 movie. And it looked better in my own personal opinion.
With blacks on high it looked too bright and grey IMO. The blacks low make the blacks rly nice.

Also RTings guide suggest to use Low black levels for my tv.

EDIT:
Just put up the mission impossible 2018 movie.
And im getting stutters all over the place. Whereas 2015 mission impossible was fine today!

http://prntscr.com/nkdc6g

Lots of occasional glitches and frame drops. Any idea?
Most of it is watchable but every minute or so something happens. sometimes a second only and sometimes several seconds.

[leeperry]

Long shot or not but if I want to zoom a 1080p60 video by 30%, why does mVR still does all its processing even on portions of the video that aren't shown? Wouldn't it be possible to only post-process(SSIM/NGU/etc) what's visible after zoom is applied? It's a waste of ressources and I might get away with higher quality picture if that was doable.

[hotripper]

EDIT:
Just put up the mission impossible 2018 movie.
And im getting stutters all over the place. Whereas 2015 mission impossible was fine today!

http://prntscr.com/nkdc6g

Lots of occasional glitches and frame drops. Any idea?
Most of it is watchable but every minute or so something happens. sometimes a second only and sometimes several seconds.

Yeah thats high and high renders and cues arent filling. What driver are you on? Latest or 418.91? You aren,t display matching...? Check Task Manager see if you have anything hogging resources. Maybe you have the high cpu bug for nvidia.

[chrisssj2]

Yeah thats high and high renders and cues arent filling. What driver are you on? Latest or 418.91? You aren,t display matching...? Check Task Manager see if you have anything hogging resources. Maybe you have the high cpu bug for nvidia.

No idea what that means what you just said but im on latest nvidia drivers. Nothing running on the computer. And I can't exactly pullup task manager while playing exlusive fulscreen movie.

Anyway I undid the suggested changed in the "Trade quality for performance" tab and set them to default. also changed back from RGB to YBCR.
I don't actually know what caused it.
But after changing those things the movie playbackked flawlessly.

[Asmodian]

Wouldn't it be possible to only post-process(SSIM/NGU/etc) what's visible after zoom is applied?

No, the player is doing the zoom and it does it by telling madVR to render to a larger size, madVR does not know exactly what part of the image is off the screen. That is also a pretty rare use case for a dedicated feature but a simple manual crop could do it (with more work) and be useful in other ways too.

[leeperry]

No, the player is doing the zoom and it does it by telling madVR to render to a larger size, madVR does not know exactly what part of the image is off the screen. That is also a pretty rare use case for a dedicated feature but a simple manual crop could do it (with more work) and be useful in other ways too.
mVR is told by the player what portion to zoom in, I don't see why invisible portions are being processed at all....especially with 4K content for instance.

Manual crop? With Avisynth in ffdshow in 8bit? No thanks :D

[Asmodian]

I meant a new feature for madVR, a manual crop, not resurrecting ffdshow. :p
I used to think that madVR would never have those kind of features but we got denoising, deblocking, sharpening, etc. A crop does not seem inappropriate.

Is madVR told by the player what portion to zoom into or is it simply told to render to a specific rectangle? I am pretty sure madVR simply gets told a target rectangle. It could assume (0,0) is the top left most visible pixel, and the display is a specific resolution, but I am not sure that would be true in all situations.

[Siso]

I meant a new feature for madVR, a manual crop, not resurrecting ffdshow. :p
I used to think that madVR would never have those kind of features but we got denoising, deblocking, sharpening, etc. A crop does not seem inappropriate.

Is madVR told by the player what portion to zoom into or is it simply told to render to a specific rectangle? I am pretty sure madVR simply gets told a target rectangle, it could assume (0,0) is the top left most visible pixel pixel and a specific aspect ratio but I am not sure that would be true in all situations.

Manual crop or crop via AR, would be a very cool feature in madvr, just my two cents ;)

[leeperry]

Is madVR told by the player what portion to zoom into or is it simply told to render to a specific rectangle? I am pretty sure madVR simply gets told a target rectangle. It could assume (0,0) is the top left most visible pixel, and the display is a specific resolution, but I am not sure that would be true in all situations.
mVR gets told what portion to zoom in, let it do the math and only process what's visible then: http://thumbs2.imagebam.com/e6/bd/a8/36b73b1214157884.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/36b73b1214157884)

Code is kinda already there with black bars cropping and all so mostly a small change and we'd be good to go heh, sometimes I'd love to zoom in 1080p60 videos but it ends up in stutterland coz the 30/40% of picture that are invisible are being processed anyway.

[madjock]

No idea what that means what you just said but im on latest nvidia drivers. Nothing running on the computer. And I can't exactly pullup task manager while playing exlusive fulscreen movie.

Anyway I undid the suggested changed in the "Trade quality for performance" tab and set them to default. also changed back from RGB to YBCR.
I don't actually know what caused it.
But after changing those things the movie playbackked flawlessly.

Here is what I see from your OSD/s

Playing a 23.976 @30
You say you are 12 Bit, which you are with nVidia. but madVR is outputting in 8 Bit
you are at Limited should you be in Full ?
Looking at the 2nd screen the GPU cannot cope at all and the frame rates are still off ?

Unsure why you cannot see this, will it make a difference to the choppiness unsure. Ultimately madVR and nVidia are not in tune for the later cards, but the settings you are using will not help.

Read this this thread to understand what the OSD means etc...
https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188- 5. MEASURING PERFORMANCE & TROUBLESHOOTING

[chrisssj2]

Here is what I see from your OSD/s

Playing a 23.976 @30
You say you are 12 Bit, which you are with nVidia. but madVR is outputting in 8 Bit
you are at Limited should you be in Full ?
Looking at the 2nd screen the GPU cannot cope at all and the frame rates are still off ?

Unsure why you cannot see this, will it make a difference to the choppiness unsure. Ultimately madVR and nVidia are not in tune for the later cards, but the settings you are using will not help.

Read this this thread to understand what the OSD means etc...
https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188- 5. MEASURING PERFORMANCE & TROUBLESHOOTING

That maybe due to the fact I need to make it windowed to make a screenshot..? Unsure will check.
Yes like I said suddenly with that movie it was completely unwatchable. But with the other movie it was perfect. Sounds strange no?

So I should use nvidia's 24 hz setting? When playing RGB? or even if I choose to YCBR, always 24 hz rather then 60 hz?

[Klaus1189]

23 Hz for 23.976p
24 Hz for 24.000p
50 Hz for 25.000p, 50.000p and also interlaced 25.000i/50.000i (same thing)
59 Hz for 29.970p, 59.940p and also interlaced 29.970i/59.940i (again same thing)
60 Hz for 30.000p, 60.000p and also interlaced 30.000i/60.000i (and again same thing)

Please note:
23.976 is 24.000/1.001
29.970 is 30.000/1.001
59.940 is 60.000/1.001

[Charky]

Using 12 RGB BIT here.. Don't rly see difference at first glance to ybcr

Tried putting the TV on low blacks during mission impossible 2015 movie. And it looked better in my own personal opinion.
With blacks on high it looked too bright and grey IMO. The blacks low make the blacks rly nice.

Also RTings guide suggest to use Low black levels for my tv.
While many settings in madvr are about what looks nice to your eyes, black levels are NOT one of them : there are (several) right and (many) wrong settings.

Best advice (and madshi's own recommandation : https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271416#post1271416) is generally to set the whole chain (madvr + GPU driver + display) to Full, and check with a pattern to make sure your near blacks and near whites are correct.

This wiki page explains it all : https://kodi.wiki/view/Video_levels_and_color_space

[jorsan]

Maybe you could help: some of my music concerts are in 480. When the camera is moving (showing the uadice for example), I can see intervals of clear and blur images. how can I solve this issue?. I use Jriver/MAdvr/2070 gpu/i5/Windows 10. Thanks in advance

[el Filou]

We need more info:
- is it 480i (from a TV feed or a DVD for example) or 480p? If 480i, is deinterlacing active? What fps? Can you post the Video info section from MediaInfo?
- Are you sure it's not in the source? If you frame-step like with Ctrl+Right in MPC-HC, are the frames blurry?

[hotripper]

That maybe due to the fact I need to make it windowed to make a screenshot..? Unsure will check.
Yes like I said suddenly with that movie it was completely unwatchable. But with the other movie it was perfect. Sounds strange no?

So I should use nvidia's 24 hz setting? When playing RGB? or even if I choose to YCBR, always 24 hz rather then 60 hz?

You should be able to take a screenshot in FSE or windowed, use madvr settings f5 not windows prnt scrn, but both work for me I just prefer madvr screenshots.

No it does not sound strange as the new turing cards are giving completely random issues for video playback.

Go to nvidia cp set 24hz full rgb save, then you can repeat as necessary and finally go back to 60hz 8 full rgb if you want. Use madvr diplay matching and it will automatically switch to 12bit full rgb 24hz and back and forth as you change from desktop to fullscreen with madvr.

[chrisssj2]

You should be able to take a screenshot in FSE or windowed, use madvr settings f5 not windows prnt scrn, but both work for me I just prefer madvr screenshots.

No it does not sound strange as the new turing cards are giving completely random issues for video playback.

Go to nvidia cp set 24hz full rgb save, then you can repeat as necessary and finally go back to 60hz 8 full rgb if you want. Use madvr diplay matching and it will automatically switch to 12bit full rgb 24hz and back and forth as you change from desktop to fullscreen with madvr.

The post above says I should use 23hz for movies..?
Anyway I see forgot to put RGB limited to full. OSD shows full now with 10 bits. Not sure if it suppose to show 12 bits since that is what nvidia is set on. BUt that is what it shows.

where is this display matching setting located?

[jorsan]

thanks El Filou. Let mw get the info and let you know. Thanks again for your input

[hotripper]

The post above says I should use 23hz for movies..?
Anyway I see forgot to put RGB limited to full. OSD shows full now with 10 bits. Not sure if it suppose to show 12 bits since that is what nvidia is set on. BUt that is what it shows.

where is this display matching setting located?

Madvr>devices>display mode

Enable switch to matching and paste this in the box for 4k tv if 1080p tv then sub 1080:
2160p23, 2160p24, 2160p25, 2160p29, 2160p30, 2160p50, 2160p59, 2160p60

And go to display properties in windows, monitor tab, and make sure your display supports those values.

[Charky]

The post above says I should use 23hz for movies..?
Well, that depends too ;)

Some of us (Asmodian among them I believe) prefer to stick with a 60 Hz display and trust madvr frame blending (aka "smooth motion") to handle 3:2 judder.

Display matching comes with drawbacks, most notably the fact that, out of the box, most display can't perfectly reproduce 23,976 Hz and you will most likely experience frame drops/repeats (micro stutters) every few minutes, unless you create a custom resolution with madvr's integrated utility or another tool such as CRU. When they work, custom resolution are great, but if you're unlucky they can be excessively tricky to get right, depending on your GPU manufacturer, display brand, driver version, or a combination of these :D

[huhn]

you are mixing to different problems here.

a display that has a problem with 3:2 judder at 23p can't be fixed CRU and alike these displays are very common and just work with 60 hz internally.

the repeated dropped frame every couple mins comes from audio video clock deviations and the display has nothing with this.

[Charky]

you are mixing to different problems here.

a display that has a problem with 3:2 judder at 23p can't be fixed CRU and alike these displays are very common and just work with 60 hz internally.

the repeated dropped frame every couple mins comes from audio video clock deviations and the display has nothing with this.

My bad :o

Anyway, using 60 Hz + frame blending fixes both these issues, right ? :)