madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[KoKlusz]

WHY did he recommend RTX, that's important. What did he say in the other thread ?

IIRC he didn't want to go into details, only said that it's always better to go with the newer architecture. But I image that hardware acceleration for AI upscaling might be also a reason.

[tp4tissue]

Dunno what anyone else is using but I use Beyond Compare https://www.scootersoftware.com/download.php

I believe madshi's recommendedation was mostly down to future proofing. If there is going to be any tensor core code it's probably a year or two away if not more...

txxxx :D

[huhn]

WHY did he recommend RTX, that's important. What did he say in the other thread ?

tensor cores?
or with other words the new feature these card bring which are currently not used by madVR.

and that's why game comparison to the 1080 are flawed newer games already use some of the newer features.

the newer the game the better the 2060 looks. i wonder what this has to do with a new architecture that can do a lot of new unusual stuff and i'm not even talking about tensor cores here.
https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3446-nvidia-gtx-780-ti-revisit-in-2019-benchmarks

[griffind]

Did this month's windows 10 update (Feb 12th KB4487044 (OS Build 17763.316)) break refresh rates for anyone else?

After the 'forced' update (FU MicroSoft) some system instability started creeping in and then I started seeing crazy motion blur issues. On inspecting the MadVR info I saw my display reporting at 62.25xxxxxHz and 24.354xxxxHz with a clock deviation of approx 4%. Up until this point my display always registered at 60hz/24Hz, it's so bad with the motion blur that I've had to disable motion smoothing along with refresh rate matching.

[KoKlusz]

tensor cores?
or with other words the new feature these card bring which are currently not used by madVR.

and that's why game comparison to the 1080 are flawed newer games already use some of the newer features.

the newer the game the better the 2060 looks. i wonder what this has to do with a new architecture that can do a lot of new unusual stuff and i'm not even talking about tensor cores here.
https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3446-nvidia-gtx-780-ti-revisit-in-2019-benchmarks

1080 will pull ahead especially in legacy titles that are memory and bandwidth hungry, but in others (like The Witcher 3) it runs almost the same. All and all, the difference is small enough that I don't see a reason to be getting 1080 over 2060, unless you can find used one in similar price, but than again 2060 might end up being better in the long run if madshi can tap into tensor cores potential.

[huhn]

Did this month's windows 10 update (Feb 12th KB4487044 (OS Build 17763.316)) break refresh rates for anyone else?

After the 'forced' update (FU MicroSoft) some system instability started creeping in and then I started seeing crazy motion blur issues. On inspecting the MadVR info I saw my display reporting at 62.25xxxxxHz and 24.354xxxxHz with a clock deviation of approx 4%. Up until this point my display always registered at 60hz/24Hz, it's so bad with the motion blur that I've had to disable motion smoothing along with refresh rate matching.

that a refreshrate mismatch and a wrong detection in one a win 10 classic.
reinstall the driver and try overlay rendering.

@KoKlusz
the 2060 has higher bandwidth compare to the normal 1080 and you should know he has a 1080 so you see it in context.
the witcher is CPU heavy atleast compare to other games so not the greatest GPU test and there are test where the 1080 move quite ahead i'm not even aware of a single title where the 2060 is clearly ahead.

[iSeries]

Did this month's windows 10 update (Feb 12th KB4487044 (OS Build 17763.316)) break refresh rates for anyone else?

After the 'forced' update (FU MicroSoft) some system instability started creeping in and then I started seeing crazy motion blur issues. On inspecting the MadVR info I saw my display reporting at 62.25xxxxxHz and 24.354xxxxHz with a clock deviation of approx 4%. Up until this point my display always registered at 60hz/24Hz, it's so bad with the motion blur that I've had to disable motion smoothing along with refresh rate matching.

Broke things for me, clock jumping around, presentation glitches, audio dropouts. So did a clean install, no problems. All good again.

[griffind]

that a refreshrate mismatch and a wrong detection in one a win 10 classic.
reinstall the driver and try overlay rendering.


Thanks for this tip, I'm glad that I'm not the only one that has come across this issue. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling a slightly older driver release (416.94) but I'm still seeing the incorrect detection of the refresh rate although the mismatch is indeed way down now to -0.0006% so a huge improvement, still a bit concerning to see my display reporting as 62.95254Hz though.

Are there known reliable Nvdia driver releases that I should be looking at? I'm running a 1070ti on Win 10 x64 if that matters.

Thank you for your time and help.

[Asmodian]

I do not have any issues with refresh rate detection (4K, HDMI) and I do have KB4487044 installed (build shows 17763.316 too), I also recently did a clean install of 419.17 (2080 Ti).

[mkohman]

Guys I apologise if this has already been covered several times but I have just confused the hell out of myself with DXVA2 native and D3D11 native.. Basically with DXVA2 native I am able to get anti alias high on my 4K movie titles and with D3D11 I can get medium if I select high the rendering increases and stutters..

With DXVA2 native anti alias high render times are 35ms and with D3D11 native anti alias medium its the same but when I select high it is unwatchable.. Also with DXVA2 the CPU is very low but with D3D11 the CPU percentage increases.

I want the best possible video quality I can get with my 1080p to 4K upscales and my 4K HDR movies on my projector. I am using madvr tone mapping so what's the best option to select please.. D3D11 native or DXVA2 native or even copy back on either??

I have a Sapphire Nitro + RX 580 4GB..would appreciate your help and advice.. Thank you guys..

[KoKlusz]

the 2060 has higher bandwidth compare to the normal 1080
1080 has only marginally lower bandwidth (320GB/s vs 336GB/s), but on the other hand it has 2GB more VRAM, which can get useful even on 1080p.
the witcher is CPU heavy atleast compare to other games so not the greatest GPU test and there are test where the 1080 move quite ahead i'm not even aware of a single title where the 2060 is clearly ahead.
2060 on stock clocks beats 1080 in Wolfenstein 2, but that's more of a exception.
you should know he has a 1080 so you see it in context.Yeah, if you already have 1080 (or any other 10xx card for that matter), that there's no point bothering with RTX, at least until 7nm cards will come out.

Overall all that's just, like, my opinion, maan, so I'm done going off topic for now.

[tp4tissue]

Guys I apologise if this has already been covered several times but I have just confused the hell out of myself with DXVA2 native and D3D11 native.. Basically with DXVA2 native I am able to get anti alias high on my 4K movie titles and with D3D11 I can get medium if I select high the rendering increases and stutters..

With DXVA2 native anti alias high render times are 35ms and with D3D11 native anti alias medium its the same but when I select high it is unwatchable.. Also with DXVA2 the CPU is very low but with D3D11 the CPU percentage increases.

I want the best possible video quality I can get with my 1080p to 4K upscales and my 4K HDR movies on my projector. I am using madvr tone mapping so what's the best option to select please.. D3D11 native or DXVA2 native or even copy back on either??

I have a Sapphire Nitro + RX 580 4GB..would appreciate your help and advice.. Thank you guys..

Don't use dxva2 native.

Use either Dxva2 copyback, or DX11 copyback

[mkohman]

Don't use dxva2 native.

Use either Dxva2 copyback, or DX11 copyback
So you mean I should use DXVA2 copyback or D3D11 Copyback? Why is this? why not Native? Also whats better DXVA 2 or D3D11? Thanks

[ryrynz]

Use search.

[Manni]

Just to say that I've reported another bug to JVC, as some of you are asking me via PMs about using 12bits with the JVCs.

When in 12bits, with any driver version, if you set the nVidia CP to RGB Full the JVC will report RGB 12bits input in its info screen, but internally it switches to YCC422, which is of course very bad for chroma as it happens entirely behind madVR's back.

You can see this if you set the levels to standard in the JVCs, as you have to set them to 0-255 in MadVR given that there are no levels in YCC, which is an incorrect setting. However, if you set both levels and colorspace to auto in the JVC and have madVR set to 0-255 anyway, then you won't see any problem as everything will happen behind your back (and madVR's back). madVR sends RGB 0-255 12bits, the GPU is set to 0-255 12bits, the JVC displays an RGB 12bits input, but in fact the GPU is forced to send YCC 422 by the JVC.

You can see this if you set colorspace to RGB (what it should be according to the GPU settings): you get the wrong colors. The only way to get correct colors in 12bits is to set the JVC to 422 or auto. This has been reported to JVC so hopefully will be fixed by f/w in the new models.

To avoid this happening behind madVR's back, you either have to select YCC422 in the nVidia CP (not recommended) or select RGB 8bits. Given the issues in 12bits with calibration and refresh rates, I still recommend to select 8bits both in the nVidia CP and in madVR properties. There is no banding even with 10bits content with this setting as madVR's dithering is excellent (ordered or above). There might be a very slightly higher noise level near black, but that's invisible from a sitting position (even at 1 screen width). Even 7bits does very well. You have to go down to 6bits to start seeing more noise, and even then banding is minimal. That's testing with pixel shader tonemapping. I haven't tested with HDR passthrough.

Unfortunately selecting 8bits isn't an option with the older models (at least it was the case for my rs500) due to the magenta bug, in all refresh rates in 4K with recent drivers, and at 4K60 in 385.28. The only way to get rid of the magenta is to not send HDR metadata, both in SDR and HDR, and even that doesn't work for everyone.

[sneaker_ger]

So you mean I should use DXVA2 copyback or D3D11 Copyback? Why is this? why not Native? Also whats better DXVA 2 or D3D11? Thanks
DXVA2 native can reduce picture quality on some GPU/Driver (mainly Nvidia, IIRC).

DXVA2 copy-back, D3D11 copy-back, D3D11 native and software decoding have perfect picture quality. But D3D11 native doesn't support deinterlacing nor black bar detection. If you don't need those you can use D3D11 native.

https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1866277&postcount=54943

[Manni]

DXVA2 native can reduce picture quality on some GPU/Driver (mainly Nvidia, IIRC).

DXVA2 copy-back, D3D11 copy-back, D3D11 native and software decoding have perfect picture quality. But D3D11 native doesn't support deinterlacing nor black bar detection. If you don't need those you can use D3D11 native.

https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1866277&postcount=54943

UHD BD Menus in jRiver also need copyback (they don't work with native).

So it's not just for black bar detection that we need copyback.

Also D3D11 native is the fastest mode to measure files with madMeasureHDR for many.

So there might be some frequent switching involved between native and copyback, at least if you use measurements files...

[mkohman]

DXVA2 native can reduce picture quality on some GPU/Driver (mainly Nvidia, IIRC).

DXVA2 copy-back, D3D11 copy-back, D3D11 native and software decoding have perfect picture quality. But D3D11 native doesn't support deinterlacing nor black bar detection. If you don't need those you can use D3D11 native.

https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1866277&postcount=54943

UHD BD Menus in jRiver also need copyback (they don't work with native).

So it's not just for black bar detection that we need copyback.

Also D3D11 native is the fastest mode to measure files with madMeasureHDR for many.

So there might be some frequent switching involved between native and copyback, at least if you use measurements files...

Thank you so much guys.. So what I take from this is to use D3D11 copyback as I use masking within my jvc on my scope screen.. What I was wondering is are they're any difference in quality between D3D11 native and copyback or are they the same in terms of quality? Thank you.

By the way I have a RX 580 and currently use ngu anti alias (medium) on my 4K titles. I was looking to change to the vega 64 card but madshi recommend the rtx 2060 or 2070 any thoughts on this as I thought the vega was a stronger card? Or shall I just stick with my RX 580 for now and see what the future holds. Tbh I am not sure about nvidia drivers and all the bugs they've had. AMD card's have aways worked a treat for me..:sly:

[sneaker_ger]

What I was wondering is are they're any difference in quality between D3D11 native and copyback or are they the same in terms of quality?
Same quality. All decoders except sometimes DXVA2 native have the same quality.

[grendelrt]

Just to say that I've reported another bug to JVC, as some of you are asking me via PMs about using 12bits with the JVCs.

When in 12bits, with any driver version, if you set the nVidia CP to RGB Full the JVC will report RGB 12bits input in its info screen, but internally it switches to YCC422, which is of course very bad for chroma as it happens entirely behind madVR's back.

You can see this if you set the levels to standard in the JVCs, as you have to set them to 0-255 in MadVR given that there are no levels in YCC, which is an incorrect setting. However, if you set both levels and colorspace to auto in the JVC and have madVR set to 0-255 anyway, then you won't see any problem as everything will happen behind your back (and madVR's back). madVR sends RGB 0-255 12bits, the GPU is set to 0-255 12bits, the JVC displays an RGB 12bits input, but in fact the GPU is forced to send YCC 422 by the JVC.

You can see this if you set colorspace to RGB (what it should be according to the GPU settings): you get the wrong colors. The only way to get correct colors in 12bits is to set the JVC to 422 or auto. This has been reported to JVC so hopefully will be fixed by f/w in the new models.

To avoid this happening behind madVR's back, you either have to select YCC444 in the nVidia CP (not recommended) or select RGB 8bits. Given the issues in 12bits with calibration and refresh rates, I still recommend to select 8bits both in the nVidia CP and in madVR properties. There is no banding even with 10bits content with this setting as madVR's dithering is excellent (ordered or above). There might be a very slightly higher noise level near black, but that's invisible from a sitting position (even at 1 screen width). Even 7bits does very well. You have to go down to 6bits to start seeing more noise, and even then banding is minimal. That's testing with pixel shader tonemapping. I haven't tested with HDR passthrough.

Unfortunately selecting 8bits isn't an option with the older models (at least it was the case for my rs500) due to the magenta bug, in all refresh rates in 4K with recent drivers, and at 4K60 in 385.28. The only way to get rid of the magenta is to not send HDR metadata, both in SDR and HDR, and even that doesn't work for everyone.

Thanks Mani for the post. I will move to RGB 8bit in both Nvidia and the native display bitdepth setting for the time being. For your last sentence though, why would you be sending HDR metadata (I am assuming you are using tonemapping in Madvr and sending the mapped data to the JVC and would not need it?).

[Manni]

Thanks Mani for the post. I will move to RGB 8bit in both Nvidia and the native display bitdepth setting for the time being. For your last sentence though, why would you be sending HDR metadata (I am assuming you are using tonemapping on the JVC and would not need it?).

I need to send metadata even in SDR passthrough when I want to force the BT2020 colorspace. I also use the BT2020 flag in the calibration tab to switch calibration automatically with the HD Fury Maestro between my rec-709 and my DCI-P3 calibration. That's using pixel shader tonemapping.

[griffind]

Welp I spoke too soon, I'm still getting 4.9% or so of clock deviation on every file I play, 1080p or 4k. I did a clean install of NVidia 416.95 drivers and my refresh rate is still reporting as 62.95254Hz for my Sony projector.

My hardware setup is PC>Denon 6300H>Projector so I can't really change that, also nuking Windows and shotgunning the whole install is not an option really either.

Surely there is a more surgical approach I can take to chasing down this issue????

Windows 10 x64
1070ti 416.95
Kodi 17 DSPlayer
MadVR 0.92.17
LAV 0.70.2.81-git
Passthru audio
No reclock

[maxkill]

Just wanted to write this to thank Madshi for all the work. I finally found the optimal settings for 4k and started using a 3dlut file which I ramdomly found in a guide which works fantastically well for shadows.
It really looks amazing and I am very thankful for this renderer, it's superbly done.
Idling about 65% with a 2070 rtx.

What I love is the sharpness it's really astounding how crisp the quality is, the smoothness of light and shadows.
I have yet to fix full rgb since my reciever don't support it, but still looks incredible. Thanks man it's now very pleasing to watch 4k!

[Manni]

http://envy.madVR.com (http://envy.madVR.com)

This is so exciting! :D

[madshi]

http://madshi.net/icon_crazy.gif

[huhn]

maybe you should add a reason why a HTPC user should care?

[madshi]

Probably an HTPC user wouldn't care, unless the "any source" bit interests you. Anyway, just wanted to give you guys here the heads up on what I've been up to lately.

[griffind]

Probably an HTPC user wouldn't care, unless the "any source" bit interests you. Anyway, just wanted to give you guys here the heads up on what I've been up to lately.

"Any Source" <--- this is the magic unicorn sparkles, send content from anything and get MadVR tone mapping WITHOUT needing a HTPC, yes please with a cherry on top!!!

[sneaker_ger]

"Any Source"
My guess is "Any Source" is gonna be "Any HDMI Source". So it's gonna be a small box you put between your TV and an HDMI source and it's gonna tonemap.

OR

Re-encoding software that applies madvr's tonemapping and outputs to a file instead of the screen.

[cokeefe]

I know it's very early, but can anyone comment on 2160p upscaling performance with the new GTX 1660 Ti, using 720p and 1080p sources?

Suspect NGU is out of the question - is this card capable of 60FPS smoothmotion Lanczos/Jinc/XBR etc?

Building a second HTPC and don't want to break the bank with a 1080/2080 card. Thanks!

[foxyshadis]

Removed some posts about a wild mischaracterization of the newsletter signup and the optional user survey that follows.

[SamuriHL]

Thanks for the heads up, madshi. The prospect of being able to apply madvr tone mapping to any source is rather exciting!

[madshi]

Thank you, foxyshadis! :)

[jmone]

Nice - my guess is it is madVR in a standalone dongle/box/hw Thingie!

[foxyshadis]

If someone would like to offer a constructive idea for improvement, instead of accusing one of the most respected developers this forum's ever had of being a spammer and scammer (of what?), let's have it. Accusations, insults, and trolling are not welcome here (nor is trolling back, for some of you).

So let's take a moment to breathe, assume good faith, and approach this in a calmer manner.

Madshi, maybe redirecting to a page that says "Thank you for signing up for the newsletter; click here to take an optional short user survey so I can better understand how you use the software."

[70MM]

Just to say that I've reported another bug to JVC, as some of you are asking me via PMs about using 12bits with the JVCs.

You can see this if you set colorspace to RGB (what it should be according to the GPU settings): you get the wrong colors. The only way to get correct colors in 12bits is to set the JVC to 422 or auto. This has been reported to JVC so hopefully will be fixed by f/w in the new models.

.
Manni can you help me please as Im no expert on this...
Ive had the NX9 for about 3 weeks, I set the 1080Ti card to RGB 0-255 12bits and madvr to the same. I noticed weeks ago that my NX9 wouldnt display when I set it to RGB, however it only worked if I left it on Auto. I thought it was odd as in the past I had my X9900 set to RGB and everything was fine, I believe if all in the chain is set to RGB, the proj should be in RGB, is that correct?

I have a feeling now that since Im using 12bit and auto on the NX9 that Im now doing a conversion to 422 which I believe isnt good....

Am I ok with how I have the card/madvr/NX9 setup at the moment or should I be changing everything to 8bit until JVC fix this?

Thank you manni...

[griffind]

Still chewing on this refresh issue, is this normal for the display Hz to be different from the source and composition Hz?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2532516&d=1551388796

[el Filou]

I know it's very early, but can anyone comment on 2160p upscaling performance with the new GTX 1660 Ti, using 720p and 1080p sources?Based on the specs, it's going to be somewhere between a 1060 6G and a 1070 in performance, probably closer to a 1070.My guess is "Any Source" is gonna be "Any HDMI Source". So it's gonna be a small box you put between your TV and an HDMI source and it's gonna tonemap.I'm wondering about the HDCP implications for a device of that sort.

[madshi]

Madshi, maybe redirecting to a page that says "Thank you for signing up for the newsletter; click here to take an optional short user survey so I can better understand how you use the software."
Thanks for the suggestion (and your very nice words), I actually like your idea. But after thinking about it a bit more, I think I'd still prefer to keep things as they are right now, because I'm getting really high survey participation, and I fear adding another link in between might lower the participation rate a bit.

But in order to remove any reason for user complaints, I've decided to delete my earlier post which linked to the newsletter/survey. I think my target audience for the newsletter is probably reading other forums, anyway. So it's not a big loss for me to lose the post/links here. I'll keep this thread focused on the madVR software.

:thanks:

[tp4tissue]

Will the dongle only do dynamic tone-mapping ?

Is it going to support 3dLut and Calibration ?

ALSO, NGU ??, what's happening to that ??

[nevcairiel]

madshi has already stated that no further information is available at this point, so asking about every possible feature is not going to get you any further. Just wait until its officially revealed.

[tp4tissue]

madshi has already stated that no further information is available at this point, so asking about every possible feature is not going to get you any further. Just wait until its officially revealed.

Do you guys think this will be a custom asic or fpga ?

[jkauff]

Will the dongle only do dynamic tone-mapping ?

Is it going to support 3dLut and Calibration ?

ALSO, NGU ??, what's happening to that ??
Maybe it was in the post he deleted, but madshi earlier requested that we hold our questions about Edge until he has a chance to release more information.

[tp4tissue]

Maybe it was in the post he deleted, but madshi earlier requested that we hold our questions about Edge until he has a chance to release more information.

My mind is spinning.. It's all I can think about now..

fingers crossed, lutbox lutbox lutbox lutbox lutbox AFFORDABLE. :D

[Asmodian]

Not "Edge", it was "Envy". :)

[Warner306]

maybe you should add a reason why a HTPC user should care?

Oh, come on, huhn. I have been using madVR's tone mapping for some time now and it has been improving in a linear fashion every month and could still improve from this point forward.

You have no idea how limited HDR tone mapping can be for someone who owns a device like a projector. Like it or not, a lot of desired consumer media is moving to HDR and it can look great when using madVR's tone mapping. It is one of a kind in what it can do.

I support madshi in possibly obtaining some type of payback for all of the hours he put into this project. Why doesn't he deserve that? I don't know how large the demand may be, but people will drop money on good tone mapping when faced with the prospect of watching dark or badly tone mapped movies when they already invested in an HDR projector. It is not a big deal or a big expense to someone who owns an $8,000-$35,000 projector set up in a true home theater environment.

[huhn]

that was an honest question from me and i got an honest answer from him and quite some information about that product too.

[Warner306]

Ok, fair enough. I thought you were just trying to be a negative Nancy. Can't say you were ever dishonest...

[tp4tissue]

Ok, fair enough. I thought you were just trying to be a negative Nancy. Can't say you were ever dishonest...

The projector will always be there for nostalgia.

But without a custom graded movie designed FOR the very limited ANSI-contrast ratio, It's never going to look RIGHT, because the intent is so far mismatched.

Going forward with big tvs being so affordable, I don't think projection has much to give on standard HDR media, Unless they include a projector grading on the disc..

That is probably much more relevant a Pursuit/ ask from the Disc manufacturer by projector enthusiasts, than Madvr's dynamic tonemapping with regards to Projection.

You would demand this through the projector companies, who would then leverage industry to produce the grading.

[ryrynz]

Hopefully it takes off and he could maybe even license out the code to have it built in to a particular manufacturers product or bundled with it.. Just needs the right industry connections/cred. Time to put all those similar sorts of boxes to shame.