madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[huhn]

Yes, of course it is work for madshi that does not improve the quality in any ideal scenarios. This is the best reason for it not to exist.
the point is it even possible?
it you want to do that using chrono you have to write a new rendering path using that...
However, as it is now I need to manually turn off VRR when I switch from gaming to watching video. :p

that's odd this is happening fully automatic on my system with AMD and nvidia.

alternatively use the manage 3D settings to automate it.

[Asmodian]

the point is it even possible?

Of course it is possible, all you need to do is not present it until you want it displayed, like any game with a frame rate limit would. This is why your timing wouldn't be that accurate but we don't know that it would be bad enough to be annoying. A lot of people seem OK with frames being displayed for +/- 8 ms (3:2 judder) and it would likely be possible to get it much better than that.

that's odd this is happening fully automatic on my system with AMD and nvidia.

Fully automatic disable? How does it know to turn off?

alternatively use the manage 3D settings to automate it.

I tested this a bunch in the past but it does work now!

At least with 441.20 setting Zoom Player to a fixed refresh rate works perfectly, my player stays at a solid 60 Hz instead of drifting about. Thanks! :)

On my Samsung I notice only 1 issue in PC mode: if the frequency of the HDMI input is not 29/30/59/60Hz, then the TV switches to 422 mode.

What?! Why?!? The way TVs handle various inputs is totally bizarre. I wonder how the engineers make decisions.

[huhn]

Of course it is possible, all you need to do is not present it until you want it displayed, like any game with a frame rate limit would. This is why your timing wouldn't be that accurate but we don't know that it would be bad enough to be annoying. A lot of people seem OK with frames being displayed for +/- 16 ms (3:2 judder) and it would likely be possible to get it much better than that.

you say that so easy. games are designed differently with bad design choices like physics been coupled with frame rate.
the needs for frame rate capper which in turn kind of do the same.

Fully automatic disable? How does it know to turn off?

it's supposed to detect video playback and blocking it looks like your player didn't make it on that list.
i never even got free sync to trigger with mpc-hc.
disabling free sync is planned or even already part of the nvidia driver for fixed frame rate games.
What?! Why?!? The way TVs handle various inputs is totally bizarre. I wonder how the engineers make decisions.
that's an upgrade in the past it was only 60 hz followed by the addition of 30 hz. that was well known for samsung TVs.
only sony and phillips are well known to support PC mode at all refreshrates without dumb things like forcing 3:2 judder that's a panasonic classic.

[Asmodian]

you say that so easy. games are designed differently with bad design choices like physics been coupled with frame rate.

I only say that I think it would still be useful/interesting, not that it is necessarily worth it for madshi to implement. He has definitely said he is not interested in trying to do the presentation timing in madVR, but might use a D3D API if available. :o

disabling free sync is planned or even already part of the nvidia driver for fixed frame rate games.

That makes sense, Zoom Player probably has a pretty small user base today. People don't like paying for a player when the open source alternatives are so good. I am just happy manually assigning it works. Is that because of a newer driver or software VRR instead of the Gsync module? I didn't test it with the TV before, only on monitors with a module.

only sony and phillips are well known to support PC mode at all refreshrates without dumb things like forcing 3:2 judder that's a panasonic classic.

It is interesting that Sony seems to generally do a good job at video processing, historically as well. I believe their engineers have a different viewpoint or something.

[tyguy]

Yes, Home Theatre is the same as the default, it subsamples the chroma.







Windows is not converting YCbCr to RGB. :confused:



The GPU driver is converting the RGB from both Windows and madVR to YCbCr. Do NOT use YCbCr 422! That would be subsampling the chroma in the GPU driver instead of the TV. :p



f. :(

So if pc mode is full Chroma 444, and everything but game mode and pc is 422, then what pixel format is game mode?

I just see tons of conflicting information. Like this here:

“Only use RGB 8-bit for everything on a PC, including HDR games and movies, even when connected to a HDR TV over HDMI. The GPU does dithering for 10-bit content and there will be no banding.

Almost everything you read on this topic is misinformation.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/b9l7v1/for_movies_rgb_8_bpcfull_or_ycbcr422_12_bpclimited/

“A 10-bit signal to the display is only required when the source doesn't perform dithering (PS4 , Blu-ray player, etc.). If the PS4 did dithering, it could run RGB 8-bit 60 Hz instead of subsampling at YCbCr420 10-bit 60 Hz because there isn't enough bandwidth for RGB 10-bit 60 Hz over HDMI 2.0.

If the display is 8-bit + FRC, the 10-bit signal is dithered internally by the display anyway. A true 10-bit panel is pointless since the quantization noise on 8-bit + dithering is invisible.

On Windows, HDR apps render to a 10-bit surface and the GPU does dithering automatically if the signal is 8-bit. So you should just use 8-bit RGB for maximum quality.”

[huhn]

So if pc mode is full Chroma 444, and everything but game mode and pc is 422, then what pixel format is game mode? a game mode should be 4:4:4 if you ask me but that doesn't mean it is may just be low latency. sony doesn't even have a PC mode they just have game mode or graphic both are 4:4:4 with all the processing you want to ruin the image.

I just see tons of conflicting information. Like this here:

Limited. All movies and TV shows are transmitted/streamed in limited color range (including Blu-ray’s)
this didn't even got corrected this obvious flaw. reddit there are simply not enough people that understand this topic to run after those that spread blind misinformation which is only wrong in this context.

sending limited or full range RGB should only depends on if the TV excepts full range or limited range. if the end device can be set up to except full range error free. full range is better because that is what the windows desktop runs at that's the output of the video renderer else limited range RGB in the GPU output would never ever be correct.

rendering 10 bit on a WFS surface with the nvidia GPU at 8 bit has a history of terrible banding. this was such a bad setup that i didn't recheck it if this issue is still present. but i guess this could affect other software then madVR.
edit: nvidia 441.08 win 1809 issue still present. test with 1909 tomorrow. edit2: same issue.

[Asmodian]

“Only use RGB 8-bit for everything on a PC, including HDR games and movies, even when connected to a HDR TV over HDMI. The GPU does dithering for 10-bit content and there will be no banding.

Is this on a recent LG OLED? I would agree with that advice unless using a display that has banding when sent full range RGB but doesn't when sent limited range YCbCr. :p

I would read that as saying 10 bit is unimportant, arguing against sending YCbCr 422 10 bit instead of 444 or RGB 8 bit, which some think sounds good because they know what 10 bit means but do not know what YCbCr 422 means.

The topic is super complicated once you bring the failings of individual displays into it. It is important to differentiate advice about a particular display from general advice.

[Stef2]

Hi. Could someone with a RTX 2080 card (no matter the version) and a projector (no matter which one) do this quick test for me: compare the rendering time of your usual, every day settings for 4K UHD video with the anamorphic stretch disabled vs enabled (no need for an anamorphic lens in place). I would like to know how much of a jump does the anamorphic stretch causes in the rendering time, everything else untouched.

Thank you!
Stef

[huhn]

this depends on your up/downscale settings so it ranges from close to nothing to impossible for a 2080 ti.

[ashlar42]

I'd wait and see if anyone will test the GTX 1650 Super launching today, it's cheaper than GTX 1060's original US$249 MSRP at US$159 and Turing is certainly better than Pascal at compute workloads.
The complete silence from Nvidia on HDMI 2.1 is quite unnerving. :angry:

[tp4tissue]

only sony and phillips are well known to support PC mode at all refreshrates without dumb things like forcing 3:2 judder that's a panasonic classic.


Cough.. also all Roku TVs support 23/24/30/60 w/ 4:4:4, RGB FULL. :D

[tp4tissue]

The complete silence from Nvidia on HDMI 2.1 is quite unnerving. :angry:

For movies, it's not very useful.

The only uptick will be 4K120 and 8K60 for games. Buhh that's really far away GPU wise, so having 2.1 even in next generation isn't going to be critical.

[jkauff]

Cough.. also all Roku TVs support 23/24/30/60 w/ 4:4:4, RGB FULL. :D
I have a TCL Series 6 Roku TV. It's an excellent display for madVR custom resolutions.

[nevcairiel]

The complete silence from Nvidia on HDMI 2.1 is quite unnerving. :angry:

Such changes don't typically happen on minor card releases, those are just minor varients on boards they made years ago.

If anything you'll need to wait for the 3000 series for that.



The only uptick will be 4K120 and 8K60 for games. Buhh that's really far away GPU wise, so having 2.1 even in next generation isn't going to be critical.

We already have cases today where games need to use 4:2:0 chroma or such nonsense to be able to bring their content to a screen, since not even 4K@60 10-bit HDR is possible right now. And higher refresh rates on 4K would finally make an argument for serious gamers to consider it.

So the next generation either needs the new DisplayPort, or HDMI 2.1, or ideally both.

[el Filou]

What I'm afraid of is, seeing some display manufacturers right now don't even support the same processing quality when you go above 4:2:2, this is not going to get better soon if they have even more bandwidth to handle.
I'd certainly be happy if at one point we can just set RGB 10-bit for every refresh rate, but the graphics cards supporting this is only half of the problem.

[Grimsdyke]

Just a quick question ... I have only just noticed that MadVR, although the player was closed, is still loaded in RAM. Is this the way it is designed to run ? Is there switch in the UI to change that ? Thx.

[el Filou]

Do you mean madHcCtrl.exe?
You can avoid that by clicking the tray icon => Edit Tray Icon Settings => "show tray icon when madVR is running" or "don't show tray icon" instead of "always show tray icon"

[Magik Mark]

Use the suggested settings of madVR for custom refresh rate and create it with CRU:
https://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-Custom-Resolution-Utility-CRU



Hi Klause!

The forum is more than 400 pages long. Do you happen to know which page? Better yet, maybe you can share it here? Thanks again


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[Klaus1189]

I think, i must be more precise:
In the past madVR was able to create custom reolutions and made them save in the driver, but newer drivers don‘t allow this anymore. But you can still use madVR to calculate the best custom resolution by playing a movie for at least 30 Minutes and then look up the suggested resolution specs. Then you use CRU to create the custom resolution with exactly that spec with CRU.

[chros]

I think, i must be more precise:
In the past madVR was able to create custom reolutions and made them save in the driver, but newer drivers don‘t allow this anymore. But you can still use madVR to calculate the best custom resolution by playing a movie for at least 30 Minutes and then look up the suggested resolution specs. Then you use CRU to create the custom resolution with exactly that spec with CRU.
Here's an example with driver 385.28 (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998).

[mclingo]

Hi Klause!

The forum is more than 400 pages long. Do you happen to know which page? Better yet, maybe you can share it here? Thanks again


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page 1 would be a good start...


"custom mode tutorial"


:)

[RealSnoopyDog]

I have one question regarding the custom video modes on a nVidia card. I successully created a custom mode for 2160p and 23.976 Hz and got rid of frame drops / repeats. But when I look into the nVidia control panel, I can not switch the color depth to 12 bpc anymore - I need this for my 4k Blu-Rays. madvr also didn't switch automatically to this mode. Is this a limitation on madVR side or a problem with the nvidia driver? I use an older one currently 417.58

[huhn]

just use 8 and move on.

madVR should be able to switch to that mode but hard to see way this is not working on your side.

[mkl]

Hi, everyone.
Would you kindly tell me if the TV black level for HDR playback using madvr should be Full or Limited if madvr is set to 0-255?
For sdr content I have RGB full everywhere in the chain (PC, madvr, TV), like someone posted in this thread at some point, but I'm not sure if HDR content needs Limited Range.
Thank you!

[huhn]

same things for HDR and SDR.

[mkl]

same things for HDR and SDR.

Thank you for the prompt reply.
I'll probably have to decrease the brightness by 1 on my oled while watching HDR content since my blacks seem a bit elevated with the default 50 and RGB full.

[huhn]

if you have an nvidia card make sure you have the newest driver some older driver have risen black levels with hdr output

[RealSnoopyDog]

@huhn: I only need a confirmation if this is normal or not. As far as I can interpret your answer, madVR should be also able to switch automatically to 12 bpc on a custom video mode when needed. On my side this does not work.
So again my question: is madVR normally able to switch automatically between 8 and 12 bpc when neccessary on a custom video mode with a nVidia graphic card? The word "should" in an answer does not help btw. because it means that the person who answers also doesn't know. I also thought that it "should" do this but it doesn't on my side. ;)

[Klaus1189]

I use an older one currently 417.58

https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4758/~/geforce-hotfix-driver-version-417.58

This is only a Hotfix driver, try latest driver 441.41.

[RealSnoopyDog]

Thank you Klaus, I know this. But do you have a madVR setup with a custom video mode for 23.976 Hz and does madVR automatically switch between 8 and 12 bpc on your system when this custom mode is used?

[Klaus1189]

Not now, but try out the new driver first. Be sure to make a screenshot of your custom reolution specs before installing the new driver.

[RealSnoopyDog]

I think you use an ATI card, Klaus ;)

But it would be great if someone who uses this szenario or has the knowledge about madVR internals could answer my one and only question:
"is madVR able to switch automatically between 8 and 12 bpc when neccessary on a custom video mode with a nVidia graphic card?"

huhn and me both "think" that it "should".

When I find the time, I will also upgrade to the latest nVidia driver. Maybe it will work then. I will let you know.

[huhn]

@huhn: I only need a confirmation if this is normal or not. As far as I can interpret your answer, madVR should be also able to switch automatically to 12 bpc on a custom video mode when needed. On my side this does not work.
So again my question: is madVR normally able to switch automatically between 8 and 12 bpc when neccessary on a custom video mode with a nVidia graphic card? The word "should" in an answer does not help btw. because it means that the person who answers also doesn't know. I also thought that it "should" do this but it doesn't on my side. ;)

nothing is absulote in computers there are to many variables.

custom resolution and 12 bit are not good friends and it is pretty much not worse the hassle anyway.

[Klaus1189]

<smartass>
<correction>worth the hassle</correction>
</smartass>
;)

[thewildsun]

I think you use an ATI card, Klaus ;)

But it would be great if someone who uses this szenario or has the knowledge about madVR internals could answer my one and only question:
"is madVR able to switch automatically between 8 and 12 bpc when neccessary on a custom video mode with a nVidia graphic card?"

huhn and me both "think" that it "should".

When I find the time, I will also upgrade to the latest nVidia driver. Maybe it will work then. I will let you know.

I do have this working on my setup, but I'm not sure how I got it working, I just got lucky and I didn't want to touch anything after getting it to work because it might just break later.

But I think it might have to do with the fact that I'm using a 4K e-shift projector which I use at 1080p60hz by default, and then switch to 4k24hz 12bpc when watching videos in madVR. Before, I had been switching from 4k60hz 8bpc, and with this setup I was not able to get NVidia to switch to 12bpc. My workaround might not be useful to those that need to run more than 1080p outside of madVR but I thought it was worth mentioning for anyone that this would work for.

Also, I have found that enabling 12bpc color is worth it and visibly better than 8bpc when using madVR debanding on animated content that has banding. If not using debanding I'm not sure there would be a noticeable difference on most SDR content.

[HillieSan]

@thewildsun

Check your projector's manual. I think it may not support 12bpc in 4k60 mode. Only 4:4:4 in 8bpc.

[YukonTrooper]

you could start with a screen of the OSD (control+j).Of course. Should have posted initially. Thought it might be a common problem. Note the screenshot is using my monitor but the same thing happens on my C9. Also, the OSD states RGB 8-bit full but I get the same results when using correct output for HDR files.

https://imgur.com/a/HpzcK4E

[Klaus1189]

Please upload on external file hoster like google drive, we can not watch the screenshot for now.

[YukonTrooper]

Thanks. I updated my post with image link.

[Magik Mark]

May I ask the reasons why "Full Screen Exclusive" may not activate successfully? How do we address it as well?

[Klaus1189]

@YukonTrooper: What graphics card and what TV, more likely PC-monitor do you use? 165 Hz!!
@Magik Mark: What happens instead of successfully activating? Black screen, crash, ...

[RealSnoopyDog]

@thewildsun @Klauss1189 @huhn : Thank you :) So I will install the latest nVidia driver and hope that it works then... You are right thewildsun, for 4k / HDR Blu-Rays, the picture quality is much better with 12 bpc

[DMU]

Which leads to an unsaturated color in the "AMD HDR" mode with Vega iGPU.
Screenshot. (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qxpyw-UzKljUSquEqk0dRT8_OEme5lDQ)

[Magik Mark]

@YukonTrooper: What graphics card and what TV, more likely PC-monitor do you use? 165 Hz!!
@Magik Mark: What happens instead of successfully activating? Black screen, crash, ...

It simply goes to full screen window mode in dsplayer. In MPC BE, the app stalls and sometimes blank screen

[el Filou]

@YukonTrooper: even though the pixel count of your video gives an aspect ratio of 2.39:1, the aspect ratio is reported to madVR as 1.78:1 by whatever is playing/decoding it (line "movie 3840x1608, 16:9") so madVR stretches it to that aspect ratio as instructed.
This is probably a metadata mistake in the source. If this is a MKV, try to open it with MKVToolNix or some other tool and change/remove the 16:9 aspect ratio tag.
Edit: often this happens because a MKV has both 'aspect ratio' and 'original aspect ratio' tags, the second one indicating what it was before cropping i.e. 16:9 if the source was a Blu-ray with black bars, and the decoder passing the original aspect ratio to madVR instead of the actual one.

[mclingo]

Hi, anyone else running a AMD RX 5700* in a ageing PCI express 2.0, assuming the PCIe 4.0 will work in the slot I might be getting my hands on one soon, just wondering if anyone has any issues with MADVR in this area, or whether anyone thinks I might see any problems with 2.0/4.0 compatability and MADVR.

[Klaus1189]

It simply goes to full screen window mode in dsplayer. In MPC BE, the app stalls and sometimes blank screen

Use Display Driver Uninstaller (DDU) (safe mode) to remove stuff of all drivers already installed like registry entries, .. then install newest driver clean.

Also AMD is providing an uninstaller which restarts pc in safe mode uninstall all stuff then you can install the new driver completely fresh. Link is in the first post here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013

[huhn]

@thewildsun @Klauss1189 @huhn : Thank you :) So I will install the latest nVidia driver and hope that it works then... You are right thewildsun, for 4k / HDR Blu-Rays, the picture quality is much better with 12 bpc

the only difference between 8 and 10 bit is the noise floor it is unable to do anything else.

[oldpainlesskodi]

Hi, anyone else running a AMD RX 5700* in a ageing PCI express 2.0, assuming the PCIe 4.0 will work in the slot I might be getting my hands on one soon, just wondering if anyone has any issues with MADVR in this area, or whether anyone thinks I might see any problems with 2.0/4.0 compatability and MADVR.

Pretty sure it needs a PCIe 4.0 board. Mine would not post using my old PCIe 2.0 mobo, so I upgraded, but that could have been just my setup.

[Magik Mark]

Use Display Driver Uninstaller (DDU) (safe mode) to remove stuff of all drivers already installed like registry entries, .. then install newest driver clean.

Also AMD is providing an uninstaller which restarts pc in safe mode uninstall all stuff then you can install the new driver completely fresh. Link is in the first post here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013



I've done that ever since. Same problem


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