madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) [Archive] - Page 533

nevcairiel

7th June 2014, 15:22

I remember some years ago even with AMD's 2000HD or 5000HD series, my Pioneer plasma was changing its mode to 30bit and 36bit (when 4:2:2 was selected the plasma would change to 36bit).
Now I am using Nvidia Quadro and it can't do that, strange, apparently AMD used this dithering long time ago also ,without an option to change manually the bitdepth :\

My Sony TV shows 12-bit input (or 36 in your numbers) from my NVIDIA card. Obviously Windows only outputs 8-bit, since all you deal with in Windows is 8-bit RGB, but the HDMI link still uses 36-bit (12 per component).
Its entirely unclear if that bitdepth is actually used for any in-GPU processing steps, and unless someone can actually analyze the data on a binary level leaving the GPU, or has incredibly fine eyes to spot it somehow on the screen, all we can really do is guess.

pie1394

7th June 2014, 15:40

When did you notice this? Dithering has changed a lot in recent builds. The new default (ordered dithering) should avoid problems with deep black performance. Maybe you should try again?

Sorry! I shouldn't use this reason since I don't usually watch the TV in the pitch-black dark doom like 6233638.

Instead I should say I don't want the dithering function at the input signal side to affect the HX920's super-resolution engine's processing efficiency.

Now the latest AMD version seemingly has added dithering capability - which is very nice improvement!! My interpretation of the different bitdepth settings is as follows:

12bit: AMD stretches from 0-255 to 16-235 and dithers to 12bit.
10bit: AMD stretches from 0-255 to 16-235 and dithers to 10bit.
8bit: AMD stretches from 0-255 to 16-235 and dithers to 8bit.
6bit: AMD stretches from 0-255 to 16-235 and dithers to 6bit.

Practically this means that the 10bit and 12bit settings may be beneficial (lower noise level) *if* your display supports 10bit/12bit correctly. For most users probably 8bit is the appropriate setting in the AMD control panel.

I think you are right! If the actual panel color depth capability is less than the input signal's, the TV side still needs the dithering processing just like what it is done in madVR...

There is no need to say, less and less new TV sets are installed with the true 10-bit panel. Sony even uses the cheap S-LCD 6-bit + A-FRC S-PVA panel on the 40W6xxB model this year.

Just wonder if the 12-bit deep-color-depth signal input is really useful -- when it is not native 12-bit content shown on a 10-bit panel TV set?

Sony 65HX920's SBM (Super-Bit-Mapping) function extends the color bit processing depth to 14-bit --- which looks similar to madVR (16-bit). But the the panel iteself is still native 8-bit + A-FRC to accept 10-bit 1920x1080 240Hz signal. so I guess it also does the dithering processing before the final output to panel.

As I know XCA7 engine + its panel-driving circuit allows the partial sub-pixel control to create more half-toned colors. But this is not a very common design on most TV sets --- too costly and too complex design to show effective results w/o visual bugs. Its local dimming system also affects very bright and very dark area's color output.

Stereodude

7th June 2014, 19:32

I don't remember: Which value does deintFps have if you activate forced film mode for 60i telecined movie content? Is it 24fps? I guess it would make sense and should then also apply to decimated 60p content.

24fps is what I've seen in my testing if I activate forced film mode for 60i telecined movie content.

Plutotype

7th June 2014, 20:32

Dodgexander

8th June 2014, 03:06

Hi guys,
I have a weird problem on my Win7 x64 HTPC. Installed X86 MPC-HC and madVR ( install.bat ), but although I see madvr in the list available renderers ( output section ) and I can select it, the renderer I see later in the list during the playback is the default "video renderer" of MPC-HC. MadVR wont load..tried to reinstall everything, but Im done. What could be the cuprit please?
Thanks

Really sounds like somehow you are opening a 64bit player. Have you double checked? Did you install to Program Files 86 and not Program Files?

----

Forgive me for the questions, I've searched far and wide but either couldn't find what I was looking for, or haven't been able to find an answer anywhere.

I recently found out from Onkyo support, that my SR-608 receiver does not pass a 4:4:4 chroma signal to my television, even when my television itself supports 4:4:4. I can confirm this by using test images when connected via the receiver and also when connected directly.

So I have a few questions, perhaps someone can explain, or at least point me to the information in dummy terms, so I can understand myself.

If my receiver is not passing 4:4:4 from my Radeon 5450 too my display, then I gather setting 4:4:4 in the AMD CCC is useless?
When choosing between the options in the CCC given my situation, why is there no 4:2:2 RGB setting?
I learnt from reading on here that madVR works by converting Y'CbCr very well to RGB and RGB therefore should always be selected in the video card driver. But if I can't accept 4:4:4 on my display because of my receiver, is setting the CCC to Y'CbCr 4:2:2 a better option?
On my Samsung t.v how can I make sure I am not expecting to receive a 4:4:4 chroma signal? There is an option for Colour Space (AUTO/WIDE). Does this have anything to do with Chroma, or is this only related too limited/full range.
HDMI Black level on my t.v is only available to change when I output Y'CbCr 4:2:2 and not Y'CbCr/RGB 4:4:4. Why is this? If I understand correctly it is this setting that assumes you will be receiving blacks darker than 16, but does it also dictate receiving whites greater than 235?
Can anyone explain the difference between limited range and chroma? I don't understand why there is no Y'CbCr limited range option in CCC yet there is no 4:2:2 RGB Option.
How does all of this relate to bit-depth? When I have Y'CbCr 4:4:2 or RGB 4:4:4 Limited in CCC my receiver shows its receiving a 30bit signal and is outputting 24bit to my display. With 4:4:4 it shows receiving and outputing 30bit.
When I connect my laptop, or my PVR the receiver instead shows an input of 24bit, why does my laptop/PVR show this but not my PC with the radeon?

Its all very confusing for me and I'm trying my best to make sense of it. Reading through many posts (including my own previously) trying to make sense of this. But since I found I'm incapable of chroma 4:4:4 this has just added more complication. I've accepted that I can't view 4:4:4 any-more, but that doesn't really matter. The PC is mainly used for Video, rarely for web browsing.

Thanks for any help.

ikakun

8th June 2014, 04:56

you can try to output unlimited rgb and set MadVR to 16-235 TV. this way the gpu shouldn't touch the image and no banding should be added.
try it with 8 bit.

of cause everything else doesn't look nice anymore like games and the browser.

I still recommend to set the GPU to 0-255 output, though, because madVR has to dither, too. And if both madVR and the GPU driver dither, the noise level will increase. And madVR's dithering quality is probably higher than AMD's. But anyway, as mentioned above, it's a nice improvement on AMD's side...

Already tried PC standard(full RGB) on GPU output & 16-135 on madVR output, and yeah, doesn't look nice on games and others. I also notice that black levels & grayscale ramp is a bit off the way it should look.

On the other hand, going Studio(limited RGB) on GPU output & 0-255 on madVR output makes other application look proper. Black levels is also spot on(16 is black and 17 to 235 is visible) & grayscale ramp looks nicer with only few improper gray steps.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but from what I know on Catalyst Panel settings is PC standard(full RGB) is 0-255 & Studio(limited RGB) is 16-235. Is that right?

but maybe this can be fixed with a ICM? if a ICM with limited RGB is added shouldn't that fix a ton of problems? I know about ICM but... is that possible?

huhn

8th June 2014, 05:05

If my receiver is not passing 4:4:4 from my Radeon 5450 too my display, then I gather setting 4:4:4 in the AMD CCC is useless?
no one know if the gpu or the AVR does a better 4:4:4 -> 4:2:2 conversation so there is no real answer. try it out
When choosing between the options in the CCC given my situation, why is there no 4:2:2 RGB setting?
because it is impossible to subsample RGB
I learnt from reading on here that madVR works by converting Y'CbCr very well to RGB and RGB therefore should always be selected in the video card driver. But if I can't accept 4:4:4 on my display because of my receiver, is setting the CCC to Y'CbCr 4:2:2 a better option?

again no real answer is possible. no one knows if your tv or your gpu did a better rgb -> YCbCr 4:2:2 conversation. both is bad...

On my Samsung t.v how can I make sure I am not expecting to receive a 4:4:4 chroma signal? There is an option for Colour Space (AUTO/WIDE). Does this have anything to do with Chroma, or is this only related too limited/full range.
not at all if the TV gets 4:4:4 it knows it gets 4:4:4 it can see it at the signal you can simply treated a 4:4:4 signal as 4:2:2 it will do a conversation
HDMI Black level on my t.v is only available to change when I output Y'CbCr 4:2:2 and not Y'CbCr/RGB 4:4:4. Why is this? If I understand correctly it is this setting that assumes you will be receiving blacks darker than 16, but does it also dictate receiving whites greater than 235?
in a YCbCr stream no value should be out of 16-235 it happens from tiem to time but we shouldn't see them.
Can anyone explain the difference between limited range and chroma? I don't understand why there is no Y'CbCr limited range option in CCC yet there is no 4:2:2 RGB Option.
YCbCr is or should be always 16-235 so the is no need to change this
How does all of this relate to bit-depth? When I have Y'CbCr 4:4:2 or RGB 4:4:4 Limited in CCC my receiver shows its receiving a 30bit signal and is outputting 24bit to my display. With 4:4:4 it shows receiving and outputing 30bit.
When I connect my laptop, or my PVR the receiver instead shows an input of 24bit, why does my laptop/PVR show this but not my PC with the radeon?

you should ignore this it shouldn't harm if a 8 bit stream is outputted as 10 bit. with the new beta 14.6 amd driver it is now possible to change this value from 8-12 outputting 8 bit with full range RGB should never harm but this is really really new option.

how to quote a list??

QBhd

8th June 2014, 05:15

huhn

8th June 2014, 05:42

I know about ICM but... is that possible?
i was able to fix clipped black with is so yes this should be possible but i'm not a pro for these things. someone with the knowable shouldn't have any problems to create a sRGB ICM with limited levels. i'm not the person with the knowable so i could be totally wrong.

Plutotype

8th June 2014, 08:20

Really sounds like somehow you are opening a 64bit player. Have you double checked? Did you install to Program Files 86 and not Program Files?

I have installed this version of MPC-HC:
http://nightly.mpc-hc.org/MPC-HC.1.7.5.146.x86.exe
and it created its own folder under Program Files (x86). Also madVR successfully registered the .ax file.

The madvr appears normally in MPC-HC, I can select it, but it never loads ( instead I see the basic "video renderer" ). Im a suspicious, that some windows issue (win7x64 home premium ) or missing software component causes madvr not to work correctly. I have installed the DirectX End-User Runtimes ( June 2010 ) and also there is XBMC 13.1 installed on the PC. I really dont know what other can cause madvr is not pulled into the directshow chain. Do I need any specific Visual C++ redistributable? Messed registry, antivirus setting...

Mangix

8th June 2014, 09:07

because it is impossible to subsample RGB

just downscale the red and green channels :D

Dodgexander

8th June 2014, 14:20

For testing 4:4:4 this image is great... it has to be viewed at native resolution and at 100% zoom

4:4:4 test pattern (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1640299&postcount=19843)

I personally open image up in MSPaint to be sure there is no funky business with IE in the image processing, probably not needed...

QB

Thanks for that, its the same image as in the OP right? Nonetheless the examples are useful. I can see 4:4:4, just nowhere near as good as on my laptop. I'm guessing this could be my display converting 4:2:2 too 4:4:4?

no one know if the gpu or the AVR does a better 4:4:4 -> 4:2:2 conversation so there is no real answer. try it out

because it is impossible to subsample RGB

again no real answer is possible. no one knows if your tv or your gpu did a better rgb -> YCbCr 4:2:2 conversation. both is bad...

not at all if the TV gets 4:4:4 it knows it gets 4:4:4 it can see it at the signal you can simply treated a 4:4:4 signal as 4:2:2 it will do a conversation

in a YCbCr stream no value should be out of 16-235 it happens from tiem to time but we shouldn't see them.

YCbCr is or should be always 16-235 so the is no need to change this

you should ignore this it shouldn't harm if a 8 bit stream is outputted as 10 bit. with the new beta 14.6 amd driver it is now possible to change this value from 8-12 outputting 8 bit with full range RGB should never harm but this is really really new option.

how to quote a list??

Thanks kindly for taking the time to answer my questions. I'm beginning to understand a lot better.

To understand the chain of events, am I right with this?

Input Video>LAV Decoder>MadVr>Driver Chroma Setting>Output to display?

So with this in mind, the choice for someone with a 4:2:2 display chain would be to feed the display/receiver with 4:4:4 and let it convert 4:4:4>4:2:2

or

Feed the display/receiver with YCbCr 4:2:2 and let the video card down-sample instead of the display/receiver.

In this case, if what most people suggest is true, the second option of outputting 4:2:2 YCbCr is not recommended since its highly possible the video card is converting RGB too YCbCr internally, rather than outputting it natively?

So where does MadVR come into this? Does anything change for MadVR if you choose 4:2:2 YCbCr in your display driver? Or does MadVR always feed the driver the same information?
Does MadVR always output 4:4:4 RGB to the driver?

I'm guessing the benefit of using MadVR is still prominent, even if converted down to 4:2:2?
I have installed this version of MPC-HC:
http://nightly.mpc-hc.org/MPC-HC.1.7.5.146.x86.exe
and it created its own folder under Program Files (x86). Also madVR successfully registered the .ax file.

The madvr appears normally in MPC-HC, I can select it, but it never loads ( instead I see the basic "video renderer" ). Im a suspicious, that some windows issue (win7x64 home premium ) or missing software component causes madvr not to work correctly. I have installed the DirectX End-User Runtimes ( June 2010 ) and also there is XBMC 13.1 installed on the PC. I really dont know what other can cause madvr is not pulled into the directshow chain. Do I need any specific Visual C++ redistributable? Messed registry, antivirus setting...

Could be a permission problem. Have you tried placing the madVR files elsewhere on your pc and then installing the filter?

What about running MPC-HC with admin rights?

I have had similar problems when tweaking with different codec packs...filters etc. Did you have a codec pack installed before by any chance?

This tool might be of help to you, maybe it gives you an idea of the priorities your PC is giving to each decoder?

huhn

8th June 2014, 15:55

Thanks for that, its the same image as in the OP right? Nonetheless the examples are useful. I can see 4:4:4, just nowhere near as good as on my laptop. I'm guessing this could be my display converting 4:2:2 too 4:4:4?
you have to watch that unscaled 100 % zoom on a 4:4:4 display you can easily see the blue pixel used in the 4:2:2. on a 4:2:2 display the hole color should change and the background has a color close to the 4:4:4 in the picture. so yes sound like your display is displaying 4:2:2 or maybe even 4:2:0.

you normally need a PC mode to get 4:4:4 with a TV is was very trick in the >past< with samsung and only worked at 60 HZ and for what ever reason very useful things like blackframe interpolation/ backlight scanning/strobing was or is still not possible...
To understand the chain of events, am I right with this?

Input Video>LAV Decoder>MadVr>Driver Chroma Setting>Output to display?
your AVR in in the line too and does something to the stream for what ever reason.
So with this in mind, the choice for someone with a 4:2:2 display chain would be to feed the display/receiver with 4:4:4 and let it convert 4:4:4>4:2:2

or

Feed the display/receiver with YCbCr 4:2:2 and let the video card down-sample instead of the display/receiver.

In this case, if what most people suggest is true, the second option of outputting 4:2:2 YCbCr is not recommended since its highly possible the video card is converting RGB too YCbCr internally, rather than outputting it natively?

i would output unlimited RGb and MadVR set to TV level double check the result with a black clipping video!
So where does MadVR come into this? Does anything change for MadVR if you choose 4:2:2 YCbCr in your display driver? Or does MadVR always feed the driver the same information?
Does MadVR always output 4:4:4 RGB to the driver?
the current version of MadVR feeds always rgb there is a way to output YCbCr but it's not in the gui so ignore it.
I'm guessing the benefit of using MadVR is still prominent, even if converted down to 4:2:2?[/QUOTE]
chroma upscaling is not as useful as before.

you can try to use 2 hdmi connections one with the AVR and one without.

Plutotype

8th June 2014, 18:42

Could be a permission problem. Have you tried placing the madVR files elsewhere on your pc and then installing the filter?
yes, no change.

What about running MPC-HC with admin rights?
didnt try, but I have never had to run MPC-HC as admin

I have had similar problems when tweaking with different codec packs...filters etc. Did you have a codec pack installed before by any chance?
No, the user told me he has not installed anything on it, but I had to reinstall the GPU driver ( cleaned the old one with driver sweeper ) and now the PC is on 14.4 (HD7750 is there ).

This tool might be of help to you, maybe it gives you an idea of the priorities your PC is giving to each decoder?
you mean Win7DSFilterTweaker? I thought its for decoders, not for a video renderer.

Anyway, thanks for the help. This issue is apparently not madvr related, but windows/user related, so I will continue to look for a solution elsewhere.

truexfan81

8th June 2014, 22:16

i'm looking at a laptop, i'm wondering how madvr would do with Intel HD Graphics 4600. If i would be able to use Jinc3AR for everything that would be perfect.

jkauff

8th June 2014, 22:27

Anyway, thanks for the help. This issue is apparently not madvr related, but windows/user related, so I will continue to look for a solution elsewhere.
One more thing you could try is to uninstall madVR, delete the madVR folder, then search your computer for "madvr.ax". You may find that the file exists somewhere other than where you did the install.

nikola

8th June 2014, 22:49

i'm looking at a laptop, i'm wondering how madvr would do with Intel HD Graphics 4600. If i would be able to use Jinc3AR for everything that would be perfect.

No, with a 4600 you can't use Jinc3 for anything.

truexfan81

9th June 2014, 01:30

No, with a 4600 you can't use Jinc3 for anything.

ok forget jinc3, what about spline3 +smoothmotion?

huhn

9th June 2014, 01:39

shouldn't be a problem but only for 23p for 50 or 60 fps i'm not sure

truexfan81

9th June 2014, 02:11

shouldn't be a problem but only for 23p for 50 or 60 fps i'm not sure

$630 laptop and its that weak?, crazy, well to be able to use smoothmotion and debanding, i guess i could put up with bicubic or bilinnear

huhn

9th June 2014, 04:53

buy a laptop with a powerful gpu should be very easy with 630. or look for a laptop with ires pro this intel gpu should be ok.

ryrynz

9th June 2014, 07:06

shouldn't be a problem but only for 23p for 50 or 60 fps i'm not sure

Nope to 50/60.

StinDaWg

9th June 2014, 10:11

I tried the 14.6 beta drivers and with 720p24 videos I get 7ms higher rendering time and ~20% higher gpu usage on a 7850. Back to 13.12.

I've mentioned this before, but now have a sample to back it up. Using anti-ringing filter on any of the downscaling algorithms after NNEDI3 causes jagged/aliased text. With the AR filter off text looks much, much better. This happens on any video I play, and can most easily be seen at the beginning of tv shows where it shows the actors names.

Take a look at the ticker at the bottom. Any letter with a diagonal like W, N, X, M, ect looks terrible with AR on.
http://www44.zippyshare.com/v/62692648/file.html

tjcinnamon

10th June 2014, 16:22

I have two OC'd GTX670's in SLI. I'm fairly certain MadVR doesn't support SLI. Correct?

Also, I am dropping frames under certain settings I think the card (at least 1) should handle. I can either have:

Chroma + Image Upscaling @ Jinc4 +AR (should it be 3 or 4)
Then
Error Diffusion
OR
Luma Doubling @ 32 Nuerons
OR
Chroma Doubling @32 Nuerons.

Given my setup I feel I should get a little more at least a combination of Diffusion+Luma or Chroma or Luma and Chroma.

Do these settings seem okay? What will give me the most bang for the buck (example: J3+AR with Luma32 and Error Diffusion, etc...)?

Thanks,
JOe K.

michkrol

10th June 2014, 17:14

I have two OC'd GTX670's in SLI. I'm fairly certain MadVR doesn't support SLI. Correct?

Also, I am dropping frames under certain settings I think the card (at least 1) should handle.
(...)
Given my setup I feel I should get a little more at least a combination of Diffusion+Luma or Chroma or Luma and Chroma.

Do these settings seem okay? What will give me the most bang for the buck (example: J3+AR with Luma32 and Error Diffusion, etc...)?

Thanks,
JOe K.

To compare performance we're missing a crucial info: source (movie's) resolution, FPS and target (display's) resolution.

I am not running an SLI config, but remember reports of problems with SLI/CF, also madVR doesn't have any special code for SLI, if I remember correctly.

Maybe try creating a profile for your video player's executable that forces single-GPU SLI mode to see if it helps? For instructions see http://www.nvidia.in/object/slizone-appprofile-in.html

SamKook

10th June 2014, 17:32

SLI is supported fine, but might be slower than simply running it on one card. I haven't read on it in a while, but I think they share their memory which isn't added up so there's probably moves there that slow things down instead of adding to the performance.

I don't watch much video on my SLI rig so I never actually compared performance(but others have reported it was slower), but I can run J3+AR fine for luma and chroma and error diffusion was making my 2 factory OC'd GTX 760 heat up quite a bit in fullscreen, but it was also working fine.
I'm using nvidia surround so that might not help when the resolution is 5760x1080, but I don't know if it only processes the movie rectangle or if some things also apply to the rest of the black sections.

Asmodian

10th June 2014, 20:21

Dodgexander

10th June 2014, 20:47

For those trying to get decent scaling algorithms on low range cards, I own a Radeon HD5450 and couldn't use anything for image upscaling apart from bilinear (chroma was fine apart from jinc). I think the default gpu queue size of 8 is too much for this little card. I reduced it to 6 and now I can use lanczos at also. 1 also works ok but I thought I'd raise a little higher to be on the safe side.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

mindbomb

11th June 2014, 00:34

Try using the disable desktop composition option. The 512MB on the 5450 might be the issue there.

tjcinnamon

12th June 2014, 01:01

After madshi's optimizations meant to improve AMD's interop cost Nvidia SLI has much less of a penalty but it is still a bit slower. I don't understand why as I have madVR set to only try to use one card, the reported memory usage on both cards is identical when SLI is enabled so I think SamKook is correct.

@tjcinnamon, Try with SLI disabled. Don't bother with chroma doubling but if you have extra GPU power you could try chroma scaling set to NNEDI3 16/32. Jinc 3 AR is better than Jinc 4, especially if you count cost; Jinc 4 is noticeably slower with no benefit.

(I am using SLI Titans, i7-3770K, Win 8.1)

Edit: Error Diffusion is more of a "what you like on your particular screen" setting. I like ED option 2 with both boxes unchecked the most but it is really hard to notice the difference between that and ordered dithering when watching on my 27" 2560x1440 monitor. On a larger 1080p display ED matters more (as long as you aren't too far away). The more you can see the pixels the more the dither setting matters but ordered dithering is already quite good so if you don't have enough performance ordered dithering is a good trade off IMO.

Yeah, I can confirm that. If I turn off SLI globally I can get ED2 and Luma 32 neurons with MadVR BUT if I try to turn it off by managing 3d settings with the driver, I get dropped frames and can have either ED2 OR Luma32n.

So I have posted a bunch of other places to ask why the drivers are not disabling SLI fully with MPC-HC + madvr.

Any advice?

This is on an HTPC so my monitor is 46" LED. I'm thinking ED2 and Luma are gonna get the most bang for the buck (as opposed to Chroma upscaling).

Thoughts on that?

Asmodian

12th June 2014, 01:14

Yeah, I can confirm that. If I turn off SLI globally I can get ED2 and Luma 32 neurons with MadVR BUT if I try to turn it off by managing 3d settings with the driver, I get dropped frames and can have either ED2 OR Luma32n.

So I have posted a bunch of other places to ask why the drivers are not disabling SLI fully with MPC-HC + madvr.

Any advice?

I have tried really hard to get the drivers to really disable SLI for madVR, they cannot do it. I think there is something about SLI that is on no matter what the rendering mode is set to.

This is on an HTPC so my monitor is 46" LED. I'm thinking ED2 and Luma are gonna get the most bang for the buck (as opposed to Chroma upscaling).

Thoughts on that?

You are probably correct. :)

tjcinnamon

12th June 2014, 04:20

I have tried really hard to get the drivers to really disable SLI for madVR, they cannot do it. I think there is something about SLI that is on no matter what the rendering mode is set to.
You are probably correct. :)

I posted in 3 graphics cards forums with no response. I'm wondering if I can create two different logins and have different windows settings

Would Luma 64 nuerons without ED2 be better than Luma 32 + ED2 in madvr?

mysterix

12th June 2014, 07:19

What is the desktop composition? When an "Disable desktop composition" option is should to be used? Does it have any influence on performance?
(have win8)

vivan

12th June 2014, 09:51

It can't be disabled on win8, so this option should have no influence.

Asmodian

12th June 2014, 11:24

Would Luma 64 nuerons without ED2 be better than Luma 32 + ED2 in madvr?

Try and see, it would depend on if you can see/notice the ordered dither pattern.

The more neurons the better. :D

Nui

12th June 2014, 12:55

@ madvr
Small idea.
It could be helpful for evaluation of LUTs if one could set 2 LUTs and a shortcut for switching between them for A/B comparison.
Maybe even use both LUTs on one half of the image each.

Thank you for your work.
As as side note, I find it incredible how much information can be conveyed with 1bit dithering (or 8 colors) :D

G_M_C

12th June 2014, 15:09

Since a few weeks AMD has realased their new 14.6 beta driver. This driver adds a setting to set display color depth for displays that support it. See screenie below.

http://tweakers.net/ext/f/RI713MLnSSKhY8uYy92ipCPJ/full.jpg

I've installed the driver, and can set my TV to 10 bpc. When i then set MPC to D3D output, 10 bit out etc. etc. I actually can get 10 bit out (a2R10G10B10 output, CTRL-J stats screen, had to use EVR custom to confirm). So i can confirm this setting seems to work.

When madVR comes to the point that 10-bit or higher output is implemented, you can really get a player that supports deep-color for AMD users with the 14.6 driver and supported displays.

tjcinnamon

13th June 2014, 14:50

I have tried really hard to get the drivers to really disable SLI for madVR, they cannot do it. I think there is something about SLI that is on no matter what the rendering mode is set to.

I reported the bug to Nvidia. Next time, I'm gonna ditch my 670's and just get one 880 Ti (if and when they come out). That will have better madVR performance.

I wonder if the dual GPU/single card cards have the same SLI issue with madvr

Asmodian

13th June 2014, 19:18

I wonder if the dual GPU/single card cards have the same SLI issue with madvr

Yep, do not get dual GPU cards (AMD or Nvidia).

Dodgexander

14th June 2014, 03:52

Try using the disable desktop composition option. The 512MB on the 5450 might be the issue there.
I wish that would help me but I think on Windows 8 it has no affect. I'm not certain what's changed but I had to pull the buffer back down to min again (4) after playing a recent dvd. I expect you're right about the ram. I'm not sure what the downsides are running less of a gpu buffer but rendering times seem so high..30ms avg.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Asmodian

14th June 2014, 05:07

I wish that would help me but I think on Windows 8 it has no affect. I'm not certain what's changed but I had to pull the buffer back down to min again (4) after playing a recent dvd. I expect you're right about the ram. I'm not sure what the downsides are running less of a gpu buffer but rendering times seem so high..30ms avg.

The only downside to running low GPU buffers is that you are more likely to drop frames if Windows decides to lock madVR for too long. With so little video memory dropping the buffers very low (1-4) is probably a good idea, certainly not a bad thing if you don't drop frames.

Is it possible your rendering times go up as you increase buffer sizes because AMD's drivers are doing some kind of swap with system memory?

huhn

14th June 2014, 06:16

you can cripple aero and see how much that helps: should be under system properties -> performence.

if you hit the VRAM cap you should get audio error and a slow down.
at least that was the case with my 6770.

so i don't think gpu use the system ram as pagefile or at least MadVr doesn't or it's so slow it doesn't matter.

Frechdachs

14th June 2014, 16:10

I've mentioned this before, but now have a sample to back it up. Using anti-ringing filter on any of the downscaling algorithms after NNEDI3 causes jagged/aliased text. With the AR filter off text looks much, much better. This happens on any video I play, and can most easily be seen at the beginning of tv shows where it shows the actors names.

Take a look at the ticker at the bottom. Any letter with a diagonal like W, N, X, M, ect looks terrible with AR on.
http://www44.zippyshare.com/v/62692648/file.html

I can confirm this problem, I just wanted to report this myself. But it isn't only AR, using NNEDI3 together with a downscaler in linear light gives you dark halos around text. This is very noticeable on softsubs that are rendered at video resolution and upscaled/downscaled with NNEDI3/Lanczos3.
I also get weird artifacts when I double 480p content with NNEDI3 and then upscale it to 1080p with AR enabled.

I made two comparisons of the sample video that StinDaWg provided.

The first image is doubled with NNEDI3 (64 neurons) and downscaled with Lanczos3 without AR. The second is with AR. Notice the aliasing on the text at the bottom:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/79026

Comparison with linear light disabled/enabled:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/79027
The dark halos are most visible on the "A" in "INDIANS".

I still prefer NNEDI3 over everything else, for now I just disabled AR and linear light.

tjcinnamon

14th June 2014, 18:05

GCRaistlin

14th June 2014, 21:07

I don't see pattern 254 in White Saturation test (http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/white.php). What upper level should I set as custom level in madVR?

huhn

14th June 2014, 21:12

254. don't forget this only works for madvr

Asmodian

14th June 2014, 22:37

Is there any advantage of running a 1:1 blu-ray rip through madvr and MPC?

If I were to have a 35GB rip at 1080p, and was going to output at 1080p would post-processing enhance or degrade the picture quality?

There are still several advantages to madVR even when displaying 1:1. Chroma scaling still needs to be done and dithering is still important. If the source has banding debanding might be nice. The queues and FSE mode should improve any judder. Smooth motion is great if your refresh rate is not set to an exact multiple of the frame rate.

The only thing I consider post-processing in madVR is debanding, everything else is simply trying to display the video as correctly as possible. There are no truly correct methods (all methods have tradeoffs), especially considering GPU performance, so there are lots of options.

leeperry

14th June 2014, 23:40

Is there any advantage of running a 1:1 blu-ray rip through madvr and MPC?
Well, at least mVR aligns MPEG2/H264 chroma properly as shown with this MPEG2 sample (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1622754&postcount=18186) and nev seems to be saying that EVR is always using the MPEG1 alignment (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1622757&postcount=18187). This might explain why I always found mVR sharper looking than EVR, OTOH mVR can't align MPEG1 properly AFAIK so you'll have to feed it RGB as LAV does provide the info but mVR doesn't care.

But this question is asked fairly often and this was madshi's latest take on that subject:
There are still differences in the following areas:

(1) Chroma upsampling (always needed!).
(2) Color conversion (always needed).
(3) Dithering (always needed).
(4) Smooth Motion FRC (you may or may not need this).
(5) Auto refresh rate switching (you may or may not need this).

Some of these differences can be minor, some can be major. It's possible you won't see/notice any difference. Or it could be a dramatic difference. So just compare yourself.
Of course for all this to matter a properly calibrated display helps and you might soon find out that the rabbit hole goes deeper :sly: