madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[seiyafan]

Can someone provide a picture comparison between ordered dithering and ED? I can't seem to notice any difference but maybe I wasn't looking hard enough.

[flashmozzg]

Can someone provide a picture comparison between ordered dithering and ED? I can't seem to notice any difference but maybe I wasn't looking hard enough.

In 8+ bit content the difference is very small and even less obvious to the eye. The only way to see it clearly is to use special patterns and high contrast.

[Andy o]

All the Kuros support 0-255.


Edit: Actually, I'm not 100% certain if the US consumer models do - they were stripped down compared to the ones sold elsewhere, to sell people on the "Elite" models.
Outside USA there was only one range of consumer sets, equivalent to the "Elite" without the branding, if I remember correctly.

The KRP-600M, being the pro monitor, absolutely does though.
I got the 500M, and it does indeed. AFAIK the "A" models sold elsewhere were proper TVs though with tuners, though apparently the speakers were still optional.

[tjcinnamon]

Is there a method where MadVR can determine what type of video it is and select the settings based off of that?

Example: If I am running 1080p video then I know I won't use Luma Image Doubling and therefore can put more GPU processing power into the Chroma Upscaling. However, if my source video has lower resolution I can reduce the Chroma Upscaling because I know I will be putting more processing power into Image Doubling.

Hope that exists and my description makes sense.

[nevcairiel]

madVR has profiles just for that. Check the first couple posts in this thread, madshi has a small guide there how to use them.

[tjcinnamon]

Sweet! I created the profile groups no problem. I read the post a few times but can't figure out where to put the script.

Any ideas?

never mind

http://i.imgur.com/7lFvOsn.jpg

[tjcinnamon]

I'm having issues scouring the forums trying to find out the difference between Chroma Upscaling, Image Upscaling, and Image doubling.

If I have a 1080p video with a 1080p display I can leave Image Doubling off correct?

If I have a 720p video with a 1080p display, should I set my Image doubling to 2.0, 1.5, 1.2, or Always? How many neurons (32?)

What will give me the most "bang for my (GPU) buck"? Image Upscaling or Chroma Uplscaling? Do I need Image upscaling with 1080p? I'm trying to set up profiles.

Thanks,
JOe K.

[pie1394]

I'm having issues scouring the forums trying to find out the difference between Chroma Upscaling, Image Upscaling, and Image doubling.

If I have a 1080p video with a 1080p display I can leave Image Doubling off correct?

It does not matter since no such scaling is actually performed...


If I have a 720p video with a 1080p display, should I set my Image doubling to 2.0, 1.5, 1.2, or Always? How many neurons (32?)

1280 (source) * 1.5 = 1920 (target) ... so the answer should have been very clear. :D

64 is somewhat better if the GPU power is affordable w/o crazy noise. Otherwise 32 is indeed recommended for Luma. I also set the Chroma Upscaling with NNEDI3_16 regardless of contents. For 720 content to 1080, Image Upscaling is set the Lanczos4AR, and Image Down-scaling is set to Spline3AR_LL -- according to some discussion about the negative text border effect of Lanczos3LL or Lanczos3AR.


What will give me the most "bang for my (GPU) buck"? Image Upscaling or Chroma Uplscaling? Do I need Image upscaling with 1080p? I'm trying to set up profiles.

Thanks,
JOe K.

In my memory, the HD7970 GPU's upper limit is the Debanding_angle_detection + NoDithering + Chroma Upscaling NNEDI3_128 for 1080p24 content to 1080p24 output signal.

If you want to run 1080p24 content's Chroma Upscaling with NNEDI3_256, I guess R9 290X or GTX Titan might be required...

ps: Don't forget the workload of 1080p resolution is exponential times of 720p, and again for 480p / 360p . For the 50i / 60i interlaced contents, it makes the GPU work-load about 2.2 ~ 2.5x times of 24fps film contents with vector-based-pixel-adaptive + frame-doubling deinterlacing.

[Anime Viewer]

I'm having issues scouring the forums trying to find out the difference between Chroma Upscaling, Image Upscaling, and Image doubling.

If I have a 1080p video with a 1080p display I can leave Image Doubling off correct?

If I have a 720p video with a 1080p display, should I set my Image doubling to 2.0, 1.5, 1.2, or Always? How many neurons (32?)

What will give me the most "bang for my (GPU) buck"? Image Upscaling or Chroma Uplscaling? Do I need Image upscaling with 1080p? I'm trying to set up profiles.

Thanks,
JOe K.

Contrary to what some people have told you Image Doubling can still be active when playing a 1080p video on a 1080p monitor (even thought it technically shouldn't be). Your best off having a 1080 profile and disabling it there like you mentioned.
With the resources you free up disabling Image doubling you could enable Error diffusion or up neurons in upscaling (if you choose to use NNEDI3 for that).

Most people have said they don't see significant (if any) benefit from using image doubling with hd content going from 720->1080. My suggestion is experiment by playing part of a 720p video with it enabled, and then play that same part with it disabled. If you notice a difference that is beneficial with it enabled then use it, but if you do not then disable it to free up those resources.

Unlike Image Doubling which can be unchecked there is no way to disable either of the upscaling configurations in madVR. Most people here would probably recommend setting it to Jinc 3 taps if your system can handle it, and keep low render numbers. It depends on your graphics card/chip, but most people (with decent gpu(s)) will see the lowest render times with good quality selecting DXVA2 for image upscaling. My recommendation would be to make a profile for 1080 Image Upscaling, and try DXVA2. If you see pixelation or a drop in perceived image quality then you could switch back to Jinc, but DXVA2 would be the closest you'll get to disabling it.

[Meulen92]

From first hand experience I can say I can see a significant improvement in image doubled 720p content over upscaled 720p content when watching on a 1080p display. I use 128 neurons. For example hair on peoples arms is rendered much sharper in my opinion.
My settings are: chroma upscaling: nnedi3 128 neurons, image downscaling: cr ar ll, image upscaling: jinc3ar, dithering: ED2 + both options.

[tjcinnamon]

WOW! Thanks for the in-depth responses everyone!

So Image-Doubling simply increases the resolution. If that's the case, what does Image-Upscaling do? Is that more for brightness (because chroma handles color)?

[huhn]

Chroma resizing in MadVr is only use to turn not 4:4:4 YCbCr into 4:4:4 YCbCr nothing else.
image upscaling/downscaling is used for image upscaling/downscaling(i'm so genius i know) it takes the image after image doubling and scales it to the target resolution.

read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

all BD and DVD are subsampled to 4:2:0

[Anime Viewer]

From first hand experience I can say I can see a significant improvement in image doubled 720p content over upscaled 720p content when watching on a 1080p display. I use 128 neurons. For example hair on peoples arms is rendered much sharper in my opinion.
My settings are: chroma upscaling: nnedi3 128 neurons, image downscaling: cr ar ll, image upscaling: jinc3ar, dithering: ED2 + both options.

128 seems unnecessary to me. The linked image shows luma image doubling with 32 neurons enabled on the left side, and image doubling off on the right side. With it off the aliasing on the lips, teeth, and circles are noticeable, but I don't notice any difference between the 32 shown in the left picture and any other image double setting be it 16 or 256. Simply enabling it at 16 neurons seems like enough.
Image Doubling on vs off (http://haruhichan.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=554&d=1403564856)

On the topic of wasted resources. I did some experimenting, and it seems like a waste to use Jinc for Image Upscaling. The image on the left (below) uses bilinear image upscaling while the one on the right (below) uses jinc image upscaling. I don't see a significant difference, and going with bilinear drops the render times by around 10ms.
Bilinear vs Jinc image upscaling (http://haruhichan.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=555&d=1403565807)

[michkrol]

128 seems unnecessary to me. The linked image shows luma image doubling with 32 neurons enabled on the left side, and image doubling off on the right side. With it off the aliasing on the lips, teeth, and circles are noticeable, but I don't notice any difference between the 32 shown in the left picture and any other image double setting be it 16 or 256. Simply enabling it at 16 neurons seems like enough.
Image Doubling on vs off (http://haruhichan.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=554&d=1403564856)
As always with these tests, the results can and will vary based on source material type, resolution and quality. For anime with thick contours, like in your example just enabling NNEDI works wonders, but live-action imagery can benefit from more neurons.

On the topic of wasted resources. I did some experimenting, and it seems like a waste to use Jinc for Image Upscaling. The image on the left (below) uses bilinear image upscaling while the one on the right (below) uses jinc image upscaling. I don't see a significant difference, and going with bilinear drops the render times by around 10ms.
Bilinear vs Jinc image upscaling (http://haruhichan.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=555&d=1403565807)
The difference depends mostly on scaling factor, so let me ask, are you using NNEDI doubling for that comparison? If yes, then the scaling factor is ~1.11x meaning you'll only notice switching upscaling to nearest neighbor.
Sometimes, depending on the source, you can get a (subjectively) better image by using cheaper algorithms, because they blur details and hide noise that shouldn't be there in the first place.

All in all, for your example you're right, but you can't say your findings are true for every video out there ;)

[mindbomb]

I think I may have found a bug - the "use opencl to process dxva nv12 surfaces" option is active when film deinterlacing is used, and not just for video deinterlacing.

[Asmodian]

Why is that a bug? That option should be active anytime DXVA decoding is used.

[magnusr]

Hi

I have panasonic vt50 (16-235) plasma. Windows 8 using ATI 280x with latest driver. Using mphc, lav and madvr.

Is the correct settings:
ATI CCC: pixel format: RGB 4:4:4 (Limited RGB)
ATI CCC: Video: Dymanic range not selected
LAV Video Decoder: RGB output leves: untouched
madvr: RGB output leves: TV levels (16-235)

Is this correct? Thx in advance

[huhn]

this setting is right if you only care for MadVR use.
just test it with a black clipping file.

can't those tv do 0-255.

[magnusr]

this setting is right if you only care for MadVR use.
just test it with a black clipping file.

can't those tv do 0-255.

Thanks :) So I guess its correct for my mkvs then.

But what do you mean if it's only for madvr use? You mean bad for desktop usage?

[DarkSpace]

ATI CCC: pixel format: RGB 4:4:4 (Limited RGB)
[...]
madvr: RGB output leves: TV levels (16-235)
This looks wrong. Assuming that your TV can't handle fullrange RGB, you should set it to either
ATI CCC: pixel format: RGB 4:4:4 (Limited RGB)
madvr: RGB output leves: PC levels (0-255)
(which is the general-purpose solution), or to
ATI CCC: pixel format: RGB 4:4:4 (Full RGB)
madvr: RGB output leves: TV levels (16-235)
(which is probably the preferred solution if you care only about your videos displaying correctly - be warned: anything other than madVR will display incorrectly, with clipped colors).

In your current setup, madVR squeezes the 0-255 RGB data into the 16-235 range, and later, your video driver squeezes that 16-235 data, which it thinks is 0-255 data, into 16-235 again!

[QBhd]

I just did a quick little search for the VT50... I am sure it can handle 0-255 as well as 4:4:4... delve deeper into your manual and settings to find out how to make it happen.

QB

[Neet009]

Hi

I have panasonic vt50 (16-235) plasma. Windows 8 using ATI 280x with latest driver. Using mphc, lav and madvr.

Is the correct settings:
ATI CCC: pixel format: RGB 4:4:4 (Limited RGB)
ATI CCC: Video: Dymanic range not selected
LAV Video Decoder: RGB output leves: untouched
madvr: RGB output leves: TV levels (16-235)

Is this correct? Thx in advance

AFAIK VT50 can handle 0-255.
You could change the option "HDMI/DVI RGB Range" to "Non-standard",and then set everything to 0-255.

[tp4tissue]

Hi folks,
Win7 x64 ( Aero disabled ), madvr 0.87.10, MPC-HC nightly, Reclock, AMD HD7750 ( 14.4 WHQL ), Samsung UE65H8500 ( UHD TV ) connected directly per HDMI. 23.976fps movie played back on 3840x2160p24 resolution.
Playback in windowed mode works fine ( fullscreen as well ), but switching on fullscreen exclusive mode, when going fullscreen causes black screen and the playback stops there.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/59m39nf78tqqd5x/madVR_-_log.rar

Any hint please what blackscreens the FSE mode?
Thanks

in FSE settings.. lower the "how many frames shall be presented in advance" until a picture shows up.. http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/cool-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862496

some one helped me out with this before.. mine was set at 16 frames, and black screen, I had to put it down to 12.

[tp4tissue]

Question guys:

if I use windows classic theme without desktop composition on Win7.. there's tearing in windowed playback mode.

is there a fix for this?

[magnusr]

AFAIK VT50 can handle 0-255.
You could change the option "HDMI/DVI RGB Range" to "Non-standard",and then set everything to 0-255.

The option hdmi/dvi is not in the menu using a hdmi cable. Then you need to use a dvi>hdmi cable... Atm Im using a hdmi cable.

So there is no 0-255 wihtout dvi>hdmi...

[magnusr]

This looks wrong. Assuming that your TV can't handle fullrange RGB, you should set it to either
ATI CCC: pixel format: RGB 4:4:4 (Limited RGB)
madvr: RGB output leves: PC levels (0-255)
(which is the general-purpose solution), or to
ATI CCC: pixel format: RGB 4:4:4 (Full RGB)
madvr: RGB output leves: TV levels (16-235)
(which is probably the preferred solution if you care only about your videos displaying correctly - be warned: anything other than madVR will display incorrectly, with clipped colors).

In your current setup, madVR squeezes the 0-255 RGB data into the 16-235 range, and later, your video driver squeezes that 16-235 data, which it thinks is 0-255 data, into 16-235 again!

The only way to get the tv to display this jpg picture below correctly is to set pixel format 4:4:4 limited (16-235). So I dont think Full RGB is correct for desktop usage either.
http://www.nicolaspeople.com/ch3rokeesblog/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/fullrgb_test.jpg

If the pixel format in CCC is 4:4:4 full (0-255) I only see 14 of the black boxes. When pixel format in CCC is 4:4:4 limited (16-235) I see atleast 27 boxes

Also using totalmedia theater i can see 17-25 in the calibration video flash when CCC is set to pixel format limited.. If I set CCC to full pixel format I see no flashing in the calibration video.

And with CCC pixel format set to limited and madvr to tv 16-235 I can also see the blinking. If CCC pixel format is set to limited and madvr to pc 0-255 I cannot see the blinking.

Therefore I conclude that the following must be correct fort the VT50 using a hdmi cable from the 280x:

ATI CCC: pixel format: RGB 4:4:4 (Limited RGB)
ATI CCC: Video: Dymanic range not selected
LAV Video Decoder: RGB output leves: untouched
madvr: RGB output leves: TV levels (16-235)

[vivan]

The only way to get the tv to display this picture correctly is to set pixel format 4:4:4 limited (16-235). So I dont think Full RGB is correct for desktop usage either.Are you viewing that picture using some image viewer or your media player? Remember that be warned: anything other than madVR will display incorrectly, with clipped colors).

[magnusr]

Are you viewing that picture using some image viewer or your media player? Remember that

Acdsee image viewer and paint gives the same result. Im not viewing the image in the media player.

I use mphc+lav+ madvr and arcsoft totalmedia theatre 6 to see the blinking 17-25 in the calibration video.

[blu3wh0]

I'm using a GT50 and I have no problems with this, so your VT50 should support Full Range. Make sure you select Non-standard range on your TV options for 0-255. There are three options (Standard, Non-standard, and Auto), do NOT select Auto as it will not properly choose Non-standard when you feed it 4:4:4 RGB (Full Range). Also, madVR needs to be set to 0-255.

[Asmodian]

Question guys:

if I use windows classic theme without desktop composition on Win7.. there's tearing in windowed playback mode.

is there a fix for this?

There are two modes for Windowed besides Windowed Overlay (Present frames in advanced enabled or not). Which mode are you using? Try the other one. ;)

[Trib]

Just a quick question about SmoothMotion. When playing a 24fps film with tv at 60Hz the same applies as playing a 60fps film? As in keeping rendering time below vsync interval of <~17ms? Havent used SmoothMotion before, but I've gotten lazy and don't wanna add another filter in my chain(Reclock with 24fps-24Hz) and just use 60Hz with everything after a fresh Windows 8.1 install.

[Shiandow]

You should be able to use smoothmotion with higher rendering times; MadVR only needs to process the frames that are in the original film. The only exception to this is with dithering, but unless you're using one of the error diffusion algorithms that shouldn't be a problem.

[Anime Viewer]

Just a quick question about SmoothMotion. When playing a 24fps film with tv at 60Hz the same applies as playing a 60fps film? As in keeping rendering time below vsync interval of <~17ms? Havent used SmoothMotion before, but I've gotten lazy and don't wanna add another filter in my chain(Reclock with 24fps-24Hz) and just use 60Hz with everything after a fresh Windows 8.1 install.

SmoothMotion efficiency can vary depending on content. Videos with variable refresh rates can somethings be a problem for it, but then it can also be a problem without it. :o

Even though you say you don't want to use Reclock you might benefit from using them together. If you're planning on running everything on 60hz then you might find it beneficial to run Reclock at a forced divisible of that - namely 30fps or 60fps. (30fps would be closest to the original source, and less taxing on the system thus probably the best choice of the two). That should pretty much guarantee that you get smooth playback regardless of what video fps the source file may be.

[magnusr]

I'm using a GT50 and I have no problems with this, so your VT50 should support Full Range. Make sure you select Non-standard range on your TV options for 0-255. There are three options (Standard, Non-standard, and Auto), do NOT select Auto as it will not properly choose Non-standard when you feed it 4:4:4 RGB (Full Range). Also, madVR needs to be set to 0-255.

I don't seem to have this option on my european model vt50. Maybe it's not there. Exactly where on the tv menu did you find this?

[mysterix]

madshi, As a whole, is it possible to realise ability of MadVR to use all GPU's installed in the system simultaneously for processing ?

[huhn]

for none CF or SLI multi GPU system up it would slow MadVr down because you have to copy the datas from GPU to GPU this is pretty slow. so nothing to gain from intel IGPU and a normal one at the same time.

[mysterix]

for none CF or SLI multi GPU system up it would slow MadVr down because you have to copy the datas from GPU to GPU this is pretty slow. so nothing to gain from intel IGPU and a normal one at the same time.And what bandwidth does GPU-GPU FullHD 60fps stream copying take up?

[andybkma]

Hi, can I get a hand please with creating a profile?

Seems that whenever I play wmv files fullscreen I get dropped frames (while with other formats I don't) so I need to lower the Image Upscaling just for wmv files down to Lanczos while with H264 I can leave it at Jinc3. I have tried to create a profile to do this but it doesn't work (still have the red explanation point in mVR).

if (codec = wmv) then "wmv"
else "Rest"

AND tried this (also no work)

if (wwv) then "wmv"
else "Rest"

"wmv" is Image Upscaling set for Lanczos while "Rest" is Jinc3.

Any guidance is highly appreciated!

[huhn]

And what bandwidth does GPU-GPU FullHD 60fps stream copying take up?

it's 16 bit so a lot and it has a high impact on the general load too just look at AMD NNEDI3 copyback issue it's about the same issue and this is a very huge thing.
using a Intel igpu and a proper GPU at the same time is most likely slower else using only the discrete gpu.

and do you really think this is feature is worth time implementing? intel, nvidia and AMD behavior is not the same. intel and Nvidia are copyback with DXVA decoding (this is small data only 8 bit and it's subsampled too making it 12 bit compared to the 48 bit of 16 bit non subsampled)

but you can do the math if you like:
1920x1080x60x16x3 quiet some bits...

[mysterix]

but you can do the math if you like:
1920x1080x60x16x3 quiet some bits......and we have 5971968000 bits which is .../8/1024/1024=about 712 MB/s which is about 3x pci-e v.1 bandwidth and about 0,1 part of HD7770 memory bandwidth. So, 30 fps will be about 356 MB/s. But it is not necessarily to copy fullstream between GPU's if to use source stream splitting scheme where secondary GPU will be processing only a half of source stream (divided depending on specific implementation) and, thus, sending to the primary GPU (with connected monitor) a stream with a half bandwidth.
In addition, what about several discrete GPUs installed in the system but of the same vendor?

[nevcairiel]

madshi already commented before that there are no plans to try to support multiple GPUs anytime soon.

The overhead having to sync them would potentially destroy any advantages anyway. Its not as simple as calculating memory bandwidth and assuming it just works if you have enough...

[michkrol]

Hi, can I get a hand please with creating a profile?

Seems that whenever I play wmv files fullscreen I get dropped frames (while with other formats I don't) so I need to lower the Image Upscaling just for wmv files down to Lanczos while with H264 I can leave it at Jinc3. I have tried to create a profile to do this but it doesn't work (still have the red explanation point in mVR).
I don't think you can match the codec used, but you can match the file's extension, try:
if (fileExt="wmv") "wmv"
else "rest"
Your syntax is a little wrong, so read the help post carefully.

Also check the OSD to see if the problem really is the codec and not the file's resolution, fps or deinterlacing resulting in lower performance.

------------------------------

@madshi, the changelog for madVR v0.87.10 mentions added profile strings "filePath/Name/Ext", with wild char ("?", "*") support.
It would be useful if you updated the "How to configure profile rules" post accordingly at some point ;)

[Selur]

reading:
Note when testing H.265 playback, you should most definitely use 64-bit versions of the player and decoder, as they are up to 50-100% faster, especially on 4K content (at least for anything FFmpeg based, like LAV/MPC-HC/etc.)
A lot of the decoder assembly is not compatible with 32-bit due to its complexity (and because the developers didn't want to spend time making it even more complex by allowing 32-bit support). source: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1684639#post1684639
I was wondering if there is still hope for a 64bit MadVR version in the foreseeable future, at least I would be bummed if I had to drop MadVR to have better HEVC playback.

[blu3wh0]

This setting should be under HDMI settings, at least on the NA version.

HDMI/DVI RGB Range:
Automatic
Standard
Non-standard (0-255)

[Mangix]

madshi already commented before that there are no plans to try to support multiple GPUs anytime soon.

The overhead having to sync them would potentially destroy any advantages anyway. Its not as simple as calculating memory bandwidth and assuming it just works if you have enough...

There may be advantages in running OpenCL stuff on one GPU and the rest on the other.

[cyberbeing]

With the Panansonic EU model plasmas, I read somewhere that the RGB range override setting only appears when using a DVI over HDMI style connection, but not a standard HDMI connection.

[magnusr]

This setting should be under HDMI settings, at least on the NA version.

HDMI/DVI RGB Range:
Automatic
Standard
Non-standard (0-255)

I cant find any hdmi settings under "picture" or "setup" in the menu.

Are you under the setup menu then "link settings" or "other settings"?

[Guest]

Discussion of TVs and their settings is OT. Please take it to a new thread. Thank you.

[andybkma]

I don't think you can match the codec used, but you can match the file's extension, try:
if (fileExt="wmv") "wmv"
else "rest"
Your syntax is a little wrong, so read the help post carefully.



Thanks much for your help, your example script with fileExt= works.

Funny you should say read the help post carefully because it mentions no such supported value as fileExt= ...

[Plutotype]

in FSE settings.. lower the "how many frames shall be presented in advance" until a picture shows up.. http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/cool-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862496

some one helped me out with this before.. mine was set at 16 frames, and black screen, I had to put it down to 12.

Ok, I have lowered the number of "in advance" frames in FSE mode to 4 frames, picture appeared, but madvr crashes after couple of seconds and creates crashslog. The same behaviour with 4,3,2,1.

6+ frames blacks out the FSE mode.

Win7 x64 ( Aero disabled ), madvr 0.87.10, MPC-HC nightly, Reclock, AMD HD7750 ( 14.4 WHQL ), Samsung UE65H8500 ( UHD TV ) connected directly per HDMI. 23.976fps movie played back on 3840x2160p24 resolution. FSE mode issue.