madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Mark_A_W]

madshi, I've found similar results with Zoom Player. The key is whether the display AR of the the video matches the display AR of the screen or not.

I'm using a 1920x1080 TV so 16x9 video triggers exclusive mode but anything else doesn't (although MPC HC seems to work as expected with non-16x9 material).

I should say that flipping in and out of exclusive mode is fast on my PC. Not quite instant but not far off - certainly a small fraction of a second. I'm running Windows 7 32bit with an Nvidia 8600GT 512MB, and using CoreAVC in CUDA mode to decode.

But aside from ZP not always switching to exclusive it's looking very good - thanks for the new version!



Yes, you are right, it is the aspect ratio, not the resolution.

[andybkma]

your GPU is most likely not fast enough. i have an 8500 GT(16 vs your 32 shader cores). And it drops frames like crazy if i enable resizers like lanczos or spline. Softcubic, Bicubic, and those work just fine.

Best tip i can give you is to overclock your GPU. Programs such as EVGA Precision or RivaTuner will let you do that. note that only shader clock actually makes any difference. The rest can be left alone.

So even though these 1280x720 high fps videos play fine with madVR's default settings on my other monitors with screen resolution 1280x720 and 1280x800, it's because I'm trying to watch them fullscreen on a monitor with 1600x900 native resolution my gpu can't keep up? Is this the case and why? I'm just trying to learn here...

[leeperry]

my gpu can't keep up?
you can always check your GPU load using GPU-Z

[Mark_A_W]

Honestly, madVR is a high end renderer, under development - it's not for people on their learners permit.


I'm sure madshi is after some feedback on low end PC performance, but in my opinion, if you don't have a decent PC, don't bother (most laptops fall into this category). If you don't have the understanding of filters, and how to set YV12, and what levels are, what exclusive mode is, etc...don't bother.

Go install VLC or something, and it will just work. When it's all refined and working, it will be more suitable for entry-level users.

[Mangix]

So even though these 1280x720 high fps videos play fine with madVR's default settings on my other monitors with screen resolution 1280x720 and 1280x800, it's because I'm trying to watch them fullscreen on a monitor with 1600x900 native resolution my gpu can't keep up? Is this the case and why? I'm just trying to learn here...

resizing takes a lot of GPU resources in madVR. a 1280x720 video will not get resized at fullscreen on your first two monitors but will be on a 1600x900 monitor. like i said, i have an 8500 GT and i can't play videos smoothly even when i overclock at stock resizers on a 1680x1050 screen. Switching to Bicubic and Bilinear solves the problem nicely.

edit: since you have an 8600 which is more powerful than my GPU, try overclocking. It won't hurt to do a 50Hz or even 100Hz overclock on your GPU and your problems might go away.

[andybkma]

Thank you guys for helping me out and teaching me why I have this problem. Next laptop I will get will have a better video card but in the meantime lower rez vids play fine with madVR's default settings which is what I mostly play on my projector. Thanks again...

[lych_necross]

In what way does that surprise you?

mad* home cinema network -> madHcNet.dll

I thought that much was obvious! Let me state again that madHcNet.dll does *NOT* contact the internet, or "dial home" or anything of that sort. I've seen speculation about that in another forum. So in order to put that fear to rest, let me say that much, that madHcNet.dll allows madVR instances on the local LAN to see and communicate with each other. This functionality is not actually used yet, though. And I won't say (yet) which purpose it will be used for.
I didn't mean to suggest that madvr or madhcnet.dll is malicious in any way. Quite the opposite. This is just some friendly speculation. I, along with other people, noticed something new and I'm curious to see what it does when your ready to release it officially. :)


That's the most logical explanation but I don't see the point to that..as most processing is done in the GPU anyway?
Well, just have to wait and see.

[Grmpf]

So even though these 1280x720 high fps videos play fine with madVR's default settings on my other monitors with screen resolution 1280x720 and 1280x800, it's because I'm trying to watch them fullscreen on a monitor with 1600x900 native resolution my gpu can't keep up? Is this the case and why? I'm just trying to learn here...

madVR takes GPU Power to do the resizing and from my experience it is that way:

- If inpput = output resolution -> madVR needs alot less power (only chroma info is resized)
- the higher the input resolution the more power it needs
- the higher the output resolution the more power it needs
- the more advanced the scaling algorithm is the more power it needs (bicubic/etc. < spline/lanczos)
- more fps = more power needed (23.976hz material on a 23.976 display will use less power than 59.940hz material on a 59.940hz display)

So in your case if you play a 720p content on a 720p display madVR will need a LOT less power than playing it back in a higher resolution (which 1600x900 is). On the other hand you could playback normal SD material in 1600x900 stutterfree because the input resolution is lower, or you can use a not so advanced scaling algorithm (like bicubic).

[iSeries]

Hi,

I have a small problem using the new version of MadVR with Reclock. I only use Reclock as a WASAPI audio renderer and do not use any of its other bells and whistles and 'Slave to reference clock' is ticked, and it is locked to playing the media at its original speed. With the new version of MadVR, every time I start a movie Reclock starts with these options unticked, which means its, erm, doing what it was designed to do :)

I am not sure why it is starting up with these options unticked as it should remember its previous state. I'd say it was a Reclock issue - except I didn't have this issue with 0.23.

Anyone got any ideas?

[watchman]

Hello madshi,
first of all thank you for such a great job with madVR . I think that it's going to be the best playback solution ever :)

I was doing some tests which render has best PQ and I found that Overlay Mixer produces far less banding than madVR (well I think that Ovelay doesn't produce any banding at all). madVR can easily beat any other render in terms of banding, but Overlay is even better.

In mpc-hc i found this tooltip about Overlay: "Generally only YUV formats are allowed, but they are presented directly without any color conversion to RGB", so maybe this can be an answer?

Also Andy o wrote few pages back: "Using Overlay and YCC I don't have to expand anywhere so I don't get banding" (reason why he is using Overlay instead of madVR).

So can help if you add option to present image without any YV12->RGB conversations (hope it's not hard work)? I'm really not an expert in field of color reproduction and I don't know how Overlay works so maybe i'm totally wrong, but it would be nice to have no banding at all with all other features providing by madVR.

Something about my configuration (in case it can have some impact to what i wrote): nvidia 9600gt (257.21), win vista, aero off (finally, thanks to exclusive FS :) ), samsung b650 hdtv, using dvi->hdmi.

Oh, I almost forgot. I found that if I set output to RGB or YCbCr444, PQ doesn't change (well maybe it's not weird, but some guys wrote here that it has impact to PQ, but for me it doesn't matter which output I set - tested with 3 renders and PQ wasn't changing).

[namaiki]

If you see any banding, then I get the feeling that you might not be using madVR (check that madVR's 'don't use dither' option is not ticked).

Make sure that you have not moved the madVR folder after you installed it.

Be sure to feed madVR YV12 or a fallback video renderer will load instead of madVR.

If you are using Media Player Classic Homecinema, you can check if madVR is loaded by checking the menu: Play-> Filters, after you have loaded a video.

Also, make sure that you have disabled any dynamic contrast features that your LCD TV may have, as those may cause further banding that may or may not be present in your video.

Overlay isn't horrible, depending on the graphics card.

[janos666]

In what way does that surprise you?

mad* home cinema network -> madHcNet.dll

I thought that much was obvious! Let me state again that madHcNet.dll does *NOT* contact the internet, or "dial home" or anything of that sort. I've seen speculation about that in another forum. So in order to put that fear to rest, let me say that much, that madHcNet.dll allows madVR instances on the local LAN to see and communicate with each other. This functionality is not actually used yet, though. And I won't say (yet) which purpose it will be used for.

You won't be pleased if you would like to steal my non-existing porn movie collection anyway. :p

Yes, it was obvious (the name, the LAN and the remote control abilities):

mad*home cinema network
Please enter the IP address of the computer
computerName userName
Please make sure that madVR is running on the target computer
check if it's turned on and connected to the LAN
But there are lot of trade-names in the file as well. I don't think they are all listed because you used their licensed code segments for madVR. Did you? :cool:
My first thought was that it will display your device list. But there are no model names, they are only single trade-names.
EDIT: Yes, my imagination went to far. :)

[watchman]

@namaiki:
Well, i'm really using madVR and I'm sure of it. Decoder (ffdshow) is also set up correctly. 'don't use dither' is unchecked of course and all the image "enhancement" options in my TV are set to off as well.

It's probably my bad when i wrote that Overlay produces "far less" banding, so it may looks like madVR is producing some horrible banding, but that's not true. Like i said: madVR can beat any other render in terms of banding. With madVR i can see just few horizontal lines (most noticable somewhere around 20IRE - b650 has there a little push to red), but they are really hard to notice (it's nothing to compare with EVR lol and Haali is worse as well). It's just overlay is a litter better and i can't see any horizontal lines at all.

For testing i'm using test patterns from AVForums (Section-A.mp4) and smallramp.ytp, which is shipped with madVR.

[janos666]

@watchman
Is it an ATI or NV card? Because the overlay renderer uses "nearest neighbourhood" resize with my Radeon HD5850. I heard that the new Geforce cards work very well.
So, 720p sources are terrible (yes, I usually watch real Blu-Rays, but sometimes...) with the overlay renderer and madVR is much better for 1080p material as well.

[watchman]

@janos666:
Like i wrote in my first post, it's NV 9600GT (drivers are 257.21 whql, card is MSI OC version).

I tried to play some SD source and i can say that Overlay is definetly not using Nearest Neighbor for me (maybe bilinear or bicubic, dunno how to find it, but picture is really nice).

I'm using madVR all the time as well because there is no way to play movie that smooth with any other render (maybe with EVR and excluse FS in mpc, but EVR has terrible PQ and Overlay produce horrible judder). New exclusive FS is just awesome. No tearing, no juddering, no dropped frames at all.

I just found that there is possibility (at least for me) to have less banding with Overlay, so i'm reporting my feedback to help madshi improve madVR. I think that i'm not the only one who love this render :)

[yesgrey]

Well, i'm really using madVR and I'm sure of it. Decoder (ffdshow) is also set up correctly. 'don't use dither' is unchecked of course and all the image "enhancement" options in my TV are set to off as well.
Are you using 3DLUTs?

[BeNooL]

Oh ok. Then yes, there is no such issue in previous version.

Just finished watching a movie with 0.25 FS Exclusive disabled and no hiccups all along.

So for me, FS exclusive mode is worse than normal/windowed mode.:confused:

I forgot to mention the other bug I experience with FS exclusive mode.

- Right clicking on video playing in FS exclusive mode draws the context menu but it disappears immediately again. Have to go into media player windowed to get it to draw and stay visible.

[6233638]

The new madVR is incredible. I haven't been able to do the extensive testing I said I would back around 0.21 because life got in the way and I have missed most releases until now.

With fullscreen exclusive I have gone from being able to use Bicubic 75 without dropped/delayed frames (already an improvement from when it was only Bilinear) to being able to run Lanczos 4 or Spline 64 on everything without drops. Lanczos 8 still runs slow even if it is only working on one of luma/chroma and the other set to Bilinear.

Switching to FS exclusive is slow on my 9400M though, it take a good second or two to switch, and you get a quick flash of the frame it was on when you last switched to FS exclusive. So if you went into the menus leaving FS exclusive at the studio logos at the start of the movie and then left FS exclusive halfway into the movie you would see the studio logos flash when it goes into fullscreen windowed.

The seek bar does not work initially for me. I have to pause and resume the film for it to start showing up when I mouse over the bottom of the screen. Every time I leave FS exclusive and go back I have to do the same thing.
Also, could you make it so that you can grab the seek bar at the very bottom of the screen, rather than having to mouse to the bottom then move up slightly. You can't seek either, you can only click on a specific spot in the movie.

Also looks like its only using three buffers now even though I have 8 set in the options.

Very impressed though. That said, it doesn't improve image quality any for me because I still think SoftCubic 50 is the best option for Luma upscaling and Bicubic 75 is best for chroma, which ran smooth before. Lanczos 4 looks great for downsampling HD but I don't have a need for it.

Now that FS exclusive is in, is there a chance of those EMEDI (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1342203#post1342203) or ICBI (http://www.andreagiachetti.it/icbi/) scaling options talked about ages ago? I think thats what it was called. I will buy a faster GPU if the image quality is worth it. Improved algorithms are one thing, but that doesn't guarantee it will actually look better with real content. In theory SoftCubic 50 shouldn't be the best option for upscaling DVD but it is in the real world.

Any word on deep color output as well? I seem to recall you saying that FS exclusive mode would enable that possibility a while back. The only thing holding madVR back compared to some of the better standalone Blu-ray players is that it's limited to 8-bit output. (though its still better in some ways despite that)

[littleD]

@watchman
Is it an ATI or NV card? Because the overlay renderer uses "nearest neighbourhood" resize with my Radeon HD5850. I heard that the new Geforce cards work very well.
So, 720p sources are terrible (yes, I usually watch real Blu-Rays, but sometimes...) with the overlay renderer and madVR is much better for 1080p material as well.

Anyone with radeon suffering on "nearest neighbour" scaling in drivers may try to use modded drivers from here (http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=322616) That guy make wonders when it comes to games, but he enabled any video processing as well. Try 3.50 as most stable and tested. Dont know if it will works for you janos666 but may be worth installing.

[watchman]

Are you using 3DLUTs?
No, i'm not. I tried to create one with latest version of yCMS, but result was same with or without using 3dlut. I didn't notice any change.

When I was testing madVR vs. Overlay, I was quickly switching between 2 windows so it's also not some placebo effect. Too bad that i can't take screenshot from Overlay (pic always disappear after i close player and also it's never FS - I was trying to quickly google something but didn't find any solution, just few topics that it's not possible).

It looks like that even HQ YV12->RGB conversation from madVR produce some banding for me - hardly noticeable, but it is there. So maybe send YV12 at output without RGB conversion like with Overlay (according to mpc tooltip Overlay works this way if i understand it correctly) can solve this problem (dunno if TV need RGB at the end, but if it does, maybe it's doing it better than madVR).

[racerxnet]

Madvr .025 crashes after a few minutes of playing a SD dvd from the HD. I rebooted after the crash and tried again and had the same issue; black screen after crash.

Asus P5W-DH MB
E8200 dual core stock speeds.
2 gigs of quality ram
XP SP3
ATI 3870 card.
MPC set to full screen output.
Nvidia Purevideo decoder and audio decoder.

Output resolution 1366 x 768 x 60 .hz as that is the native resolution of the LCD. Not sure if this is related to the crash. Tried with and without LUT file enabled, no difference. Went back to .022 and have no issues.

Any ideas why it crashes.

MAK

[leeperry]

i can't take screenshot from Overlay
Hypersnap DX can do it AFAIK, otherwise you can lower the windows graphic hardware acceleration a few notches.

[madshi]

When you invoke it manually, I mean.
Don't know why that happens. Maybe it will be fixed with the next build, or maybe not. If not, there's probably not much I can do about it...

Firstly I confirm the problem on full-screen on secondary monitor that jump back to the main monitor on my configuration.
That happens when you start your media player on the primary *and* load the video on the primary and only afterwards move the media player to the secondary monitor. Try loading the video file on the secondary monitor, that should fix it.

btw at the moment madVR switch to full-screen on primary, the second monitor also blink at the same time as the primary, is it needed?
I have no control over that.

May I propose an option to use the exclusive mode immediately when going to full-screen?
Yes, that makes sense.

Last question, is it possible to see no improvement compared to windowed, Meaning that windowed mode is (for me) is already perfectly smooth? Or am I tolerant to bad playback?
Yes, that's perfectly possible. Exclusive mode should give you a bit more performance reserves for future algorithms, though, and a reliability safety net (at least in its final version).

@madshi: so do you think there's a chance you could retrieve the current refresh rate info from XP at all?
No chance. Not much of a problem, though, because in a future version madVR will manage refresh rates, anyway, depending on the source framerate. When that feature is implemented, madVR will no longer need to know the current refresh rate, instead madVR will activate the "right" refresh rate.

Having more thoughts about it, Reclock simply asks GDI for the current resolution...if D3D is clueless, GDI's got to know :)
GDI knows the resolution, but not the refresh rate.

And Reclock doesn't just "pull the strings behind mVR's back", it also does 23.976 and 25@24fps adaptations so anyone can enjoy his movies at the proper speed...and w/o any audible glitch at that. Some ppl seem to prefer a dropped frame from time to time over resampled audio...each to his own, personally dropped frames ruin the whole thing for me..just like gappy audio playback.
I was talking about video rendering. Let ReClock do its audio related stuff like kernel streaming and resampling etc, that's fine with me. But ReClock should not try to "help" madVR with video rendering. That's none of ReClock's business. And I consider GPU refresh rates to be part of video rendering.

BTW, you said: "If the PotPlayer coder wants to have an interface to ask madVR whether it's in fullscreen exclusive mode or not, I can add that"

He told me that he would need it, as he currently has no way to know whether mVR is running in FS. :thanks:
Ok, no problem, I will add that to the next build.

And back to high rendering time...
FS Exl
Playing 1080p23 file at 1080p23 monitor aver rendering time is 32 dec queue 7-8/8 up queue 4-5/8 rend queue 3-4/8
Playing the same 1080p23 file at 1080p50 monitor aver rendering time is 17 dec queue 7-8/8 up queue 7-8/8 rend queue 7-8/8
Playing 1080p23 file at 1080p59 monitor aver rendering time is 13 dec queue 7-8/8 up queue 7-8/8 rend queue 7-8/8

And aver rendering time is slowly going up!
It's a bit weird. May have to do with the timing model I'm currently using for exclusive mode rendering.

One minor petition. It would be posible to low the screen OSD vertical position in order that the text were inside a 2.35:1 screen?
I have a CIH screen myself, so I know exactly what you're talking about. However, although CIH specific features are on my to do list, they're not top priority right now.

it would be FANFRIGGINTASTIC if you could negotiate the madVR/Reclock interaction with James at Slysoft. He is still actively developing Reclock, and as madVR is the best video renderer, Reclock is the best audio renderer (even if you don't want resampling - it still has WASAPI and all sorts of good stuff).
Well, I'm not really sure if any active communication between Reclock and madVR is necessary. Right now I don't really see a need for that.

What does the new fullscreen exclusive mode do?
Fullscreen exclusive mode is a special Direct3D rendering mode which has a number of advantages over windowed mode.

Just finished watching a movie with 0.25 FS Exclusive disabled and no hiccups all along.

So for me, FS exclusive mode is worse than normal/windowed mode.:confused:
Not sure why. Might be the timing model. I'm going to make use of the timing model tweak option for exclusive mode rendering in the next build. That will probably fix the problem for you...

madshi, I think you missed my point. I'm not talking about changing the name of the .ax file - I'm talking about the file version (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms646981%28VS.85%29.aspx) (right click - properties - Details in Win7 or right click - properties - Version in WinXP)
I'm confused. madVR has always had the file version resource set properly!

I'm not sure why do you think there will be flickering. DVBViewer is using fullscreen exclusive mode and there is no flickering at all.
Exclusive mode in itself does not flicker. But if another window is covering the rendering window, then flickering can occur.

With the new version of MadVR, every time I start a movie Reclock starts with these options unticked, which means its, erm, doing what it was designed to do :)
No idea why that is happening.

I was doing some tests which render has best PQ and I found that Overlay Mixer produces far less banding than madVR (well I think that Ovelay doesn't produce any banding at all). madVR can easily beat any other render in terms of banding, but Overlay is even better.
I've done some checks and I can confirm banding on my HTPC if I use one of the resolutions in the nVidia control panel's "SD/HD" section. If I use a custom resolution or a "PC" resolution, the banding is gone. It seems to me that when using an SD/HD resolution, the nVidia driver is doing violence to the madVR rendered video. So my suggestion would be to create custom resolutions for all the refresh rates you're using. That should take care of the banding problem.

But there are lot of trade-names in the file as well. I don't think they are all listed because you used their licensed code segments for madVR. Did you? :cool:
I'm not using any of their licensed code segments, no. The trade-names are in there for future use, just for GUI/text purposes.

could you make it so that you can grab the seek bar at the very bottom of the screen, rather than having to mouse to the bottom then move up slightly.
I can't do that currently without hurting rendering performance. I might do it in a future version together with some other rendering related changes.

You can't seek either, you can only click on a specific spot in the movie.
What do you mean with that? Seeking seems to work just fine for everybody else?

Also looks like its only using three buffers now even though I have 8 set in the options.
That's the way it is right now, it has technical reasons. Will be "fixed" in a future version.

Now that FS exclusive is in, is there a chance of those EMEDI (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1342203#post1342203) or ICBI (http://www.andreagiachetti.it/icbi/) scaling options talked about ages ago?
Not anytime soon. There are still many many things on my to do list which are more important.

Any word on deep color output as well? I seem to recall you saying that FS exclusive mode would enable that possibility a while back. The only thing holding madVR back compared to some of the better standalone Blu-ray players is that it's limited to 8-bit output.
I don't think that deep color will make much of a difference, if any at all. I will probably still try to implement it sooner or later, but it's not a top priority for me.

Madvr .025 crashes after a few minutes of playing a SD dvd from the HD. I rebooted after the crash and tried again and had the same issue; black screen after crash.
Can you create a log file for me? It seems that you're the only one with this problem, though, so it might also be hardware related? Maybe your CPU or GPU are getting too hot?

[madshi]

Fix for ZoomPlayer not going into fullscreen exclusive mode:

Activate the option "Playback -> Video -> Video Renderer Settings -> Overlay covers entire video area".

[mark0077]

Hi madshi, Should the new exclusive mode handle resolution / refresh rate changes from an outside source, eg reclock vb script.. For me this makes madVR display a blank screen. Posted this a long while back so just mentioning it again incase you wern't aware of it. Thanks.

[yesgrey]

in a future version madVR will manage refresh rates, anyway, depending on the source framerate. When that feature is implemented, madVR will no longer need to know the current refresh rate, instead madVR will activate the "right" refresh rate.
Please don't remove the current method completely, at least keep it as an option, because I need to have full control of the refresh rate being used...

[madshi]

Hi madshi, Should the new exclusive mode handle resolution / refresh rate changes from an outside source, eg reclock vb script.. For me this makes madVR display a blank screen. Posted this a long while back so just mentioning it again incase you wern't aware of it. Thanks.
I already replied to that.

Please don't remove the current method completely, at least keep it as an option, because I need to have full control of the refresh rate being used...
Why?

[madshi]

banding problems

Here's a test image you can use to test for banding:

http://madshi.net/banding.png

On my dev machine / computer monitor, this is perfectly smooth. On my HTPC / projector, depending on some things, there's either heavy banding, or very mild banding. I think the mild banding is due to internal processing in my projector. The heavy banding is due to the nVidia driver doing BAD things.

I'd suggest that you double check whether you have banding with this test image (use any image editor/viewer for checking this, doesn't matter which you use). Please make sure that you watch that image 1:1 unscaled. If you have banding problems, you have to work on that. With nVidia it seems that creating a custom resolution / refresh mode helps working around the problem. With ATI/AMD make sure the Pixel Format is set to "RGB (Full Range)". If you don't have this option, try going over a standard HDMI -> DVI adapter, that seems to help, but might kill off audio.

[mark0077]

I already replied to that.


Why?

Ah I see now, will be great to see madVR controlling refresh rates but it wouldn't do any harm to allow external sources change the refresh rate if they are found to be more configurable than madVR :) I always felt it was best for the renderer to control it, will it be configurable like can users decide whether to use 24hz or 48hz for example for a 24fps movie... as things like this may have an impact on the what the user sees (with various tv interpolation techniques depending on the rate of input they are given to delivery the best interpolation). In the long run being able to configure things like this (with a good default I suppose) will be fantastic.

And when you ask am I using two screens when having the issue with right clicking the madVR window, no I only have one monitor. Right clicking just produces a flicker and no menu appears for me. I'll retest with future versions.

Thanks as always

[TinTime]

Please don't remove the current method completely, at least keep it as an option, because I need to have full control of the refresh rate being used...

I was just about to request the same thing.

I launch all my videos via a batch script that changes the refresh rate and then launches the player. The refresh rate is set according to the framerate of the source file. However if my source file is named "film 25to24.mkv" then my script would set the refresh rate to 24Hz despite the source being 25fps. Then Reclock can handle the slowdown. If madVR overrides this then my display would be set to the wrong refresh rate.

BTW that tip about Zoom Player works (thank you!), although I get the same problem with madVR then as with some other renderers - I've set the background colour in ZP to be grey to help prevent screen burn on my TV. However with madVR in exclusive mode I only get black borders. As I say though this happens with some other renderers too. It's not specific to madVR.

[neb1236]

That happens when you start your media player on the primary *and* load the video on the primary and only afterwards move the media player to the secondary monitor. Try loading the video file on the secondary monitor, that should fix it.
Indeed yes, thank you, but well since I often move my player around, I will stick with windowed mode due to my other remark until things change.

I might Have a small things to say, I do perceive non-fluidness on some video; Anime source (progressive), in travelling moment, but this is not the cause of the Renderer, but due to the combination of the screen (LCD) and low framerate (24, yes it is low! Anime source don’t use motion blur that is naturally present in non-anime footage)
Since I have two screens I can perfectly compare it with cloning.
Old screen seems smoother than the new one (definitely!)
Same result by using my other laptop and testing both screens one by one.

I'm just saying that so people don't confuse thing, using LCD designed for games or standard office use won't be good.
New screen have very low respond time that will increases the effect, the only solution is doubling framerate by blending next and previous frames (The opposite of Overdrive, sort of), there is a great benefit from it (I used ffdshow filter), but cumulated on 1080p + vsfilter such thing is barely possible even on recent computers. And let’s not talk about advance things like motion morphing, maybe in a couple of years. Maybe bringing back an old request for having this implemented in the renderer... Like madVR... Maybe...

[madshi]

will it be configurable like can users decide whether to use 24hz or 48hz for example for a 24fps movie...
I'm not ready to talk about that yet.

I launch all my videos via a batch script that changes the refresh rate and then launches the player. The refresh rate is set according to the framerate of the source file. However if my source file is named "film 25to24.mkv" then my script would set the refresh rate to 24Hz despite the source being 25fps. Then Reclock can handle the slowdown. If madVR overrides this then my display would be set to the wrong refresh rate.
Does Reclock not change the media type to reflect the modified frame rate? Anyway, don't worry, we'll find a solution...

Maybe bringing back an old request for having this implemented in the renderer... Like madVR... Maybe...
As I've always said: I don't think so.

[TinTime]

Does Reclock not change the media type to reflect the modified frame rate?

That's well outside my level of expertise so it's safe to say I don't know :)

If it's any help madVR's OSD reports "movie 25.000 fps (says source filter)" even when the video is slowed down to 24fps.

Anyway, don't worry, we'll find a solution...

If you've got other ideas I'm more than happy to use your solution.

[leeperry]

GDI knows the resolution, but not the refresh rate.
Oh? because Reclock does seem to get the refresh rate info from GDI...isn't it linked w/ DirectDraw somehow?

You can see this kind of infos in Reclock reg under HKCU\Software\ReClock\GdiTimings\: http://thumbnails29.imagebam.com/9201/ff48fc92003235.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/ff48fc92003235)

It can also retrieve them from pstrip if it's running.
I was talking about video rendering. Let ReClock do its audio related stuff like kernel streaming and resampling etc, that's fine with me. But ReClock should not try to "help" madVR with video rendering. That's none of ReClock's business. And I consider GPU refresh rates to be part of video rendering.
To be honest, as long as you don't enable VSYNC Correction *in* Reclock, it doesn't try to influence the VR AFAIK. It's only measuring the refresh rate to resample the audio accordingly. The major problem w/ Reclock is that it's an unstoppable train, it doesn't give a damn about the VR...it's got high standards when it comes to timestamps, and most VR's fail achieving them after a while. The reason why so many ppl resorted to D3D exclusive EVR, because the hardware VSYNC control is far more accurate than in windowed mode from my understanding.

The major issue and the reason why automatic refresh rate switching cannot work is that:
-some 25fps content needs to be displayed in a 25Hz multiple if it's genuine PAL, but you will need to slow down to 24Hz if it's sped up Film material
-I use 89.91/96/100Hz on the CRT, but 48/50/59.94 on the DLP pj...so it would also require different settings depending on the display, please be so kind as to still allow a manual mode.
Well, I'm not really sure if any active communication between Reclock and madVR is necessary. Right now I don't really see a need for that.
Me neither, everything works like a charm so far here.
What do you mean with that? Seeking seems to work just fine for everybody else?
He prolly wants to drag the seeking locator.

[madshi]

If it's any help madVR's OSD reports "movie 25.000 fps (says source filter)" even when the video is slowed down to 24fps.
Well, that's not so good.

Oh? because Reclock does seem to get the refresh rate info from GDI...
Anyway, as you can see in the madVR OSD, madVR is able to detect the refresh rate very reliably. But that's the "real" refresh rate, not the one which is needed to activate a GPU output mode. Anyway, this is too technical, and discussing this in the forum doesn't really help anybody.

He prolly wants to drag the seeking locator.
Ok, that doesn't work, and I don't plan to implement that...

[leeperry]

Anyway, as you can see in the madVR OSD, madVR is able to detect the refresh rate very reliably. But that's the "real" refresh rate, not the one which is needed to activate a GPU output mode. Anyway, this is too technical, and discussing this in the forum doesn't really help anybody.
Reclock does 2 things when it's initialized:
-ask GDI/pstrip what time it is, instead of reinventing the wheel and measure the refresh rate/resolution "by hand"
-check whether any adaptation is possible, and if so do its work

James first started to ask Pstrip, and then decided to allow asking GDI for the non-pstrip ppl.

AFAIK the data I just showed comes straight from GDI(it shows 48/60/90/100Hz, it's not "measured")...anyway, you're the coder...I'm just repeating what I see and read from James discussions.
Well, that's not so good.
why not? you get the graph filter infos, all my movies in 96Hz show 96.00000xx Hz and 23.976fps in mVR's OSD

[Grmpf]

Okay i finally got a little bit of time to play with the new exclusive mode. Here are my findings with this system:

Intel Q9550 + ATi4770 + JVC DLA HD100
Windows XP SP3 + CCC10.6 + PowerStrip (latest) + ZoomPlayer (latest non beta) + ReClock (latest) + coreAVC/ffdshow + madVR 0.25

a) If i start Zoomplayer in Fullscreen and then open a file i first get this:

http://img3.imagebanana.com/img/jq0zwbt9/thumb/zp_madvr_fullscreen_start01.jpg (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/jq0zwbt9/zp_madvr_fullscreen_start01.jpg)

and if i ALT+Enter (=Fullscreen) i get this:

http://img3.imagebanana.com/img/iaja4ekz/thumb/zp_madvr_fullscreen_start02.jpg (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/iaja4ekz/zp_madvr_fullscreen_start02.jpg)

I can change Windowed to Fullscreen mode as often as i want i always get this result. The "Playback -> Video -> Video Renderer Settings -> Overlay covers entire video area" Option is enabled btw.

If i start ZP and go to windowed mode and *then* load a file everything works well and first i get the normal windowed mode and later i can change to fullscreen exclusive mode (takes a quarter of a second or less btw). Its just that i can not load anything if i am in fullscreen mode already.

b) If i got exclusive mode runing i can not change the aspect ratio... if i do ZP completly hangs and i have to kill it via taskmanager.

I am using 2 custom AR presets atm (i am using a ISCO lens, thats why):

http://img3.imagebanana.com/img/8fkovgum/thumb/zp_aspectratio.jpg (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/8fkovgum/zp_aspectratio.jpg)
http://img3.imagebanana.com/img/cghc14ou/thumb/zp_presets.jpg (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/cghc14ou/zp_presets.jpg)

c) I am using some custom Powerstrip resolutions with very special timings to eleminate the drift between video and audio clock, this only works with exactly the right timings. I am talking about front porches/back porches/etc. to adjust the hz close enough to make this work. So if madVR just adjusts the timing to standard windows timings i will get drops/repeats of audiopakets again, or have reclock let resample everything - i do not want that...

Here is a quick screenshot of my 50.000hz timings and how they differ in just a few points (23.976/24.000/59.940 timings work the same way):

Normal Windows/CCC timings:
http://img3.imagebanana.com/img/5muedyuk/thumb/PowerStrip_50_000hz_normal.jpg (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/5muedyuk/PowerStrip_50_000hz_normal.jpg)

My special timings for my system:
http://img3.imagebanana.com/img/tp522ooj/thumb/PowerStrip_50_000hz_custom.jpg (http://www.imagebanana.com/view/tp522ooj/PowerStrip_50_000hz_custom.jpg)

Here is the description (http://www.d65.de/wiki/HTPC_Bildfrequenz_Optimierung) (beware german) how and why this is working and there is a little tool, from the author of eventghost, too to get the right timings (if you use powerstrip).

Ohhh and madshi i want to thank you very much for all the effort and time you spend to make us unknown strangers using HTPCs a little (hm i should say a LOT) happier - Thanks !

[Mark_A_W]

Fix for ZoomPlayer not going into fullscreen exclusive mode:

Activate the option "Playback -> Video -> Video Renderer Settings -> Overlay covers entire video area".

Works for me.

[Mark_A_W]

Oh? because Reclock does seem to get the refresh rate info from GDI...isn't it linked w/ DirectDraw somehow?

You can see this kind of infos in Reclock reg under HKCU\Software\ReClock\GdiTimings\: http://thumbnails29.imagebam.com/9201/ff48fc92003235.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/ff48fc92003235)

It can also retrieve them from pstrip if it's running.

To be honest, as long as you don't enable VSYNC Correction *in* Reclock, it doesn't try to influence the VR AFAIK. It's only measuring the refresh rate to resample the audio accordingly. The major problem w/ Reclock is that it's an unstoppable train, it doesn't give a damn about the VR...it's got high standards when it comes to timestamps, and most VR's fail achieving them after a while. The reason why so many ppl resorted to D3D exclusive EVR, because the hardware VSYNC control is far more accurate than in windowed mode from my understanding.

The major issue and the reason why automatic refresh rate switching cannot work is that:
-some 25fps content needs to be displayed in a 25Hz multiple if it's genuine PAL, but you will need to slow down to 24Hz if it's sped up Film material
-I use 89.91/96/100Hz on the CRT, but 48/50/59.94 on the DLP pj...so it would also require different settings depending on the display, please be so kind as to still allow a manual mode.

Me neither, everything works like a charm so far here.

He prolly wants to drag the seeking locator.



Hmm...I think active communication between Reclock and madVR could be really useful - but maybe it's not the best way.

What I want to achieve is this:

Assume madVR exclusive does give perfect playback. Therefore Reclock resampling when rates match is not required (perhaps fixed upsampling, but not the dynamic resampling to get smooth playback).

I'd like Reclock to "turn off" it's active part in this case. (This would also suit those obsessed with bitstreaming).

But for 25p material, I'd like Reclock to turn back on and resample it to 24p. I'm ok with this, I don't watch TV shows with my ZP/madVR/Reclock setup, it's for movies only on the projector.

But Leeperry would not like this to be so locked in.


Perhaps this is a Reclock request, but what I'm trying to get at is I don't want madVR and Reclock to "fight each other", and I don't want Reclock to resample if it doesn't need to.


And at this stage, I'd like a recommendation for using madVR with Reclock - even if it's only to standardise things for your testing.
If we use Reclock, should we have it set to "slave" and "original speed" "locked"?


Thanks

Mark

PS. Anything you can do about exclusive on an interlaced res would be much appreciated. But I do realise that I am the only one active in this thread with an interlaced res.

[leeperry]

Having Reclock doing fixed resampling or following the refresh rate won't make much of an audible difference AFAIK. Some ppl report success when using Reclock w/o resampling(bitstream/RME and Lynx users), you can easily use Reclock w/o resampling...just be prepared for possible "catch up" audio glitches once in a while, and no more adaptation whatsoever(the GPU 27MHz PLL is quite jittery IMHO). Anyway, it's possible. Going bit-perfect and then all of a sudden resample will glitch up, as a minimum of 75ms buffering is required.

Well, I've got some native PAL and some sped up cinema content...unlike BT.601/709, this cannot be automated. I've got DisplayChanger batches in my start menu, this is perfect.

If you can make the automatic mode optional like in Reclock(using its .vbs script), everyone will be happy...which is all that truly matters ;)

I thought Reclock would need to talk to the VR so skipping wouldn't crap out like it always has in the past!!! :devil: but the latest mVR builds have put an end to this most annoying problem and never miss the VSYNC fliptime anymore IME, just like Beliyaal's EVR CP. If there's no way to detect the refresh rate on XP for exclusive mode switching, then mVR already has everything I need at this point. Well, except for PS gamut mapping, but I'm doomed to be eternally dissatisfied anyway(j/k :p)

[6233638]

I've done some checks and I can confirm banding on my HTPC if I use one of the resolutions in the nVidia control panel's "SD/HD" section. If I use a custom resolution or a "PC" resolution, the banding is gone. It seems to me that when using an SD/HD resolution, the nVidia driver is doing violence to the madVR rendered video. So my suggestion would be to create custom resolutions for all the refresh rates you're using. That should take care of the banding problem.Nvidia will be compressing the levels from 256 levels to 220 when outputting "SD/HD" which will introduce banding.

The smallramp.ytp test pattern is great for testing displays because there's no banding on a high quality device like a CRT. Everything else I have tried it on has banding.

What do you mean with that? Seeking seems to work just fine for everybody else?I can't grab the progress bar and scrub through a video when looking for something specific, I need to keep clicking on different points in the timeline.

I don't think that deep color will make much of a difference, if any at all. I will probably still try to implement it sooner or later, but it's not a top priority for me.There should be less dithering required and the image quality will hold up to further processing better. All digital displays must reprocess the image to display it. (white balance, gamma, gamut adjustments..)

[Hypernova]

(5) Currently madVR only supports windowed mode, which is not ideal for smooth motion playback. Fullscreen exclusive mode will be added in a future version which should allow nearly perfect smooth motion playback.


You might want to update this madshi :)

Also, may I suggest an option so that madVR won't go out of exclusive mode unless the player going off fullscreen? I love the current behavior, but someone may want nothing interupting the video (eg. various noticfication). It would be best if you could somehow differentiate between the player trying to show a UI and any other application/process though. :thanks:

[odie5533]

I am using a PC monitor with MPC-HC, CoreAVC, and madVR, generally playing x264 encoded videos but also DVDs through ffdshow. CoreAVC has settings for input and output levels (TV or PC for both) and output format (YV12, etc), and madVR has the output settings to choose levels too (TV/PC). I am wondering, what should I set each of these to? And in ffdshow, what options should be set for Output? Thanks!

[watchman]

banding problems
I've done some checks and I can confirm banding on my HTPC if I use one of the resolutions in the nVidia control panel's "SD/HD" section. If I use a custom resolution or a "PC" resolution, the banding is gone. It seems to me that when using an SD/HD resolution, the nVidia driver is doing violence to the madVR rendered video. So my suggestion would be to create custom resolutions for all the refresh rates you're using. That should take care of the banding problem.

Ok, I tried to create custom resolutions and i can confirm that banding is gone. Picture with madVR is now as good as expected.

When i was testing, i tried to change a lot of settings in nVidia control panel, but never thought that they are hiding some options behind our backs in resolution table. :confused:

[Luv]

Fix for ZoomPlayer not going into fullscreen exclusive mode:

Activate the option "Playback -> Video -> Video Renderer Settings -> Overlay covers entire video area"

Indeed! madvr 0.25 is a milestone,fellows.Now fully functional on my rig (And switch WM<->FSEM is immediate,I can loose 2-3 frames and that's all)

Just two tiny cosmetic OSD considerations:
-dvds and only dvds :still the "unknow movie fps"
-still can't see the "Seek bar",and it's checked.Update :works fine.Go to FSEM,move the mouse to make the ZP bar appear,and the seek bar follows immediately.Leave the ZP bar disappear and the seek bar remains (If checked in madVR settings).Does not work for dvds.

PS:

sorry,just one other thing: is it fine if the rendering time ms value gets very close to vsync value ?

[namaiki]

has settings for input and output levels (TV or PC for both) and output format (YV12, etc), and madVR has the output settings to choose levels too (TV/PC).

In CoreAVC, have both options set to TV or there will be banding. In madVR, you would generally have the option set to PC. Have the YV12 option selected.

And in ffdshow, what options should be set for Output? Thanks!
You can set whatever you want as long as YV12 is also selected.

[madshi]

a) If i start Zoomplayer in Fullscreen and then open a file i first get this [...]

If i start ZP and go to windowed mode and *then* load a file everything works well and first i get the normal windowed mode and later i can change to fullscreen exclusive mode (takes a quarter of a second or less btw). Its just that i can not load anything if i am in fullscreen mode already.
Yes, I'm aware of the issue. Funny thing is that madVR behaves no different in both cases. So it seems that ZP behaves differently if you load the video in fullscreen mode. I'll try to fix that problem, but I'm not sure if I can. It's possible that Blight might have to change something. But don't contact him about that just yet. Let me first try to fix it in madVR.

c) I am using some custom Powerstrip resolutions with very special timings to eleminate the drift between video and audio clock, this only works with exactly the right timings. I am talking about front porches/back porches/etc. to adjust the hz close enough to make this work. So if madVR just adjusts the timing to standard windows timings i will get drops/repeats of audiopakets again, or have reclock let resample everything - i do not want that...
JFMI: Why do you use Powerstrip instead of defining custom timings? With nVidia at least you should be able to define a custom output mode which exactly matches your Powerstrip timings. Not sure if it's possible with ATI, though.

What I want to achieve is this:

Assume madVR exclusive does give perfect playback. Therefore Reclock resampling when rates match is not required (perhaps fixed upsampling, but not the dynamic resampling to get smooth playback).

I'd like Reclock to "turn off" it's active part in this case. (This would also suit those obsessed with bitstreaming).

But for 25p material, I'd like Reclock to turn back on and resample it to 24p. I'm ok with this, I don't watch TV shows with my ZP/madVR/Reclock setup, it's for movies only on the projector.
Exclusive vs. windowed mode does not matter much here. If madVR does not need any help in exclusive mode, then Reclock can't help in windowed mode, either.

What might be a useful feature is to have Reclock disable its resampling as long as you don't change the movie framerate (e.g. 25 -> 24). But that's a Reclock specific feature, without needing any information from (or communication with) madVR.

And at this stage, I'd like a recommendation for using madVR with Reclock - even if it's only to standardise things for your testing.
If we use Reclock, should we have it set to "slave" and "original speed" "locked"?
IMHO, every HTPC user should try to get audio and video clocks as near as possible. If you manage to do that well enough, madVR should be able to breeze through a movie with 0 delayed or dropped frames (at least in exclusive mode, and if your GPU is fast enough). So Reclock resampling would only be needed when changing movie framerate.

If, however, you can't get clocks matched well enough, then probably Reclock's resampling still make sense for every movie.

PS. Anything you can do about exclusive on an interlaced res would be much appreciated. But I do realise that I am the only one active in this thread with an interlaced res.
Let's talk about this later when I implement support for automatic refresh rate changes etc...

the latest mVR builds have put an end to this most annoying problem and never miss the VSYNC fliptime anymore IME
@Jong, do you hear that? :p

Nvidia will be compressing the levels from 256 levels to 220 when outputting "SD/HD" which will introduce banding.
Yeah, shame on them.

I can't grab the progress bar and scrub through a video when looking for something specific, I need to keep clicking on different points in the timeline.
Yeah, I don't plan to support dragging right now.

image quality will hold up to further processing better.
Ok, that is a fair agument.

Also, may I suggest an option so that madVR won't go out of exclusive mode unless the player going off fullscreen? I love the current behavior, but someone may want nothing interupting the video (eg. various noticfication). It would be best if you could somehow differentiate between the player trying to show a UI and any other application/process though. :thanks:
As said before, if another window is covering madVR, there would probably be flickering, if I don't go out of exclusive mode.

Ok, I tried to create custom resolutions and i can confirm that banding is gone. Picture with madVR is now as good as expected.
Glad to hear that! Now let us just hope that nVidia won't "fix" this in a future driver version, so that we get the benefit of added banding with custom resolutions, too... :rolleyes:

-dvds and only dvds :still the "unknow movie fps"
That is most probably a fault of the splitter or decoder you're using. Try switching to a different splitter and/or decoder.

sorry,just one other thing: is it fine if the rendering time ms value gets very close to vsync value ?
I don't know what's up with that, but as long as playback is smooth there's nothing to worry about...

[Grmpf]

JFMI: Why do you use Powerstrip instead of defining custom timings? With nVidia at least you should be able to define a custom output mode which exactly matches your Powerstrip timings. Not sure if it's possible with ATI, though.

Because i am using a ATi card (4770) ;-) Its fast, its quiet, powerstrip works (i am used to it), i do not need HD-Audio (my preamp is not capable of) and i am used to use ATi cards for my HTPC... but if madVR in the future would allow me to get rid of all the scripting/etc. to have the right timings with perfect settings i would be tempted to use a nvidia card...

[madshi]

Because i am using a ATi card (4770) ;-) Its fast, its quiet, powerstrip works (i am used to it), i do not need HD-Audio (my preamp is not capable of) and i am used to use ATi cards for my HTPC... but if madVR in the future would allow me to get rid of all the scripting/etc. to have the right timings with perfect settings i would be tempted to use a nvidia card...
I don't think you need to go nVidia to achieve that. Nough said (for now)...

[Nevilne]

madshi, big thanks for such an awesome renderer. Just want to report strange bug:

I have 8600m card on dell laptop. I'm able to select either 59 or 60 hz refresh rate in nvidia control panel.
When I use 60hz madvr produces a lot of dropped/delayed frames on videos with high framerate, but there are no drops/delays at 59 hz.
The osd shows around 59.75 hz at both settings. This is on any player with or without reclock. Any idea what could have caused this?

Also, is there a need to use reclock with madvr if I don't do playback speed change in reclock?