madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[GREG1292]

Thanks for a great build. GTX770 has never been so happy
with latest Nvidia drivers. Everything works great lancos 8,lancos8,
needi 64,smooth motion on. Have every option I can turn on and
flawless playback. I will wait for the next official build and from
the looks of your hard work won't be needed anytime soon:)

[madshi]

I have noticed as well that LAV Video detects interlaced video better than madVR.
Why didn't you report that as a madVR bug/problem then?

http://madVR.bugs.madshi.net

Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be working for me.

MPC-HC reports that video deinterlacing is being used, but I have to toggle film/video deinterlacing for the combing artifacts to disappear.

In JRiver MC19, deinterlacing isn't being activated at all
Please don't discuss the same issue in both the bug tracker *and* the forum, because doing so costs me extra time. Discussions related to bugs listed in the bug tracker should be done in the bug tracker, not in the forum.

As far as the refresh rate downshifting / dinterlacing combo being forced on: couldn't that potentially cause the system to do more work in case like:
Wouldn't a monitor with a 60hz and 59hz refresh force it back up to 59/60 when it determines said monitor can't support displaying video at 24hz?
Might quality of a progressive video degrade if interlacing was forced on it?
To answer your questions: No. And no. The last "no" only applies if madVR detects the cadence correctly, though.

is this ONLY working with 720p60/50 source (the 720p TV and BD spec)so not with 1080p60?
It should work for 50p and 60p files with any resolution.

i tried a 1080p30i source with constant 4:2:2:2 content this was not working at all. but this should work if i resize this source to 720p30i and treat it as progressive and now double the frame rate so the cadence is 8:4:4:4 right?
No. Currently 50p/60p decimation is limited to 6:4 and 4:4 cadences. Which is how the IVTC algorithm sees the typical 3:2 and 2:2 cadences used in 99.9% of all content, when playing progressive 50p/60p files.

I'm aware of that forced film mode currently has some limitations. But hey, madVR is not at v1.0 yet.

[Knight77]

So now I'm quite confused: to use needi 32 (at least) for image doubling 720P to 1080P and "tomorrow" 1080P to 4K what is a good choice? AMD or nVidia? And which card...with a "human" budget? GTX 750ti looks intersting with a great ratio price/performances but not good enough.

Last question: would it be better to wait for videocard with 2.0 HDMI?

P.S. I just need it for HTPC not gaming at all...

[huhn]

wait till you got an 4k TV.

there is no real 4K source no 4k BD so this will still take his time be for this is a good idea...

[Knight77]

wait till you got an 4k TV.

there is no real 4K source no 4k BD so this will still take his time be for this is a good idea...

Yep ok but assuming that I got a 4K TV next month...what is a good idea?

Ah I just watch Bluray Remux and 1080P WEB serial, with a minimum part of 720P not-web serial...

[Farfie]

So now I'm quite confused: to use needi 32 (at least) for image doubling 720P to 1080P and "tomorrow" 1080P to 4K what is the best choice? AMD or nVidia? And which card...with a "human" budget? GTX 750ti looks intersting with a great ratio price/performances but not good enough.

Last question: would it be better to wait for videocard with 2.0 HDMI?

P.S. I just need it for HTPC not gaming at all...

As huhn said, we should wait for 4k content to be more mainstream. After that, who knows where the industry will be GPU-wise, so we can hold "bang for your buck" contests at that point.

Personally though, with G-Sync right around the corner, the answer for me is obvious. In a perfect world, 4k media would become mainstream around the time I can purchase a 4k, g-sync enabled, wide-gamut (I believe they are naturally wide gamut?) 120hz OLED monitor around 24-30 inches. Hopefully everything ends up coming together really nicely like that.

[Asmodian]

So now I'm quite confused: to use needi 32 (at least) for image doubling 720P to 1080P and "tomorrow" 1080P to 4K what is the best choice? AMD or nVidia? And which card...with a "human" budget? GTX 750ti looks intersting with a great ratio price/performances but not good enough.

Last question: would it be better to wait for videocard with 2.0 HDMI?

P.S. I just need it for HTPC not gaming at all...

I am not sure there is a good option for this, anything that can do it will be expensive right now. My Titan hits 25.6 ms rendering times using Bicubic75AR chroma, Bicubic75AR image, Catmull-Rom AR+LL downscaling, and NNEDI3 32 doubling, no smooth motion, no debanding, ordered dithering when watching 1080p24 -> 1440@72Hz. That doesn't leave a lot of room for 1080p30 content and these are fairly minimal settings.

Personally I am waiting for HDMI 2.0 for my next card. 4K isn't very interesting if it maxes out at 30p and it looks like a lot of the new 4K TVs do not have DP.

[GCRaistlin]

Why the mode is being changed between "windowed" and "exclusive" on Ctrl+Win press? Can this be disabled? I use Ctrl+Win+Up/Down to change sound volume globally...

[huhn]

decimation test:

720p59 (6:4)= 6:4 fine playback at 23 hz no SM trigger
720p50(4:4)= detected as 4:4 SM trigger at 25 hz and a mass of ghosting so not working still 50fps
720p47(4:4)= detected as 4:4 SM trigger at 23 hz and mass of ghosting so not working still 48 fps and not supported in your release post.
720p60>i<(5:5)=detected as 5:5 decimated to 48 hz X-) and no SM trigger at 59 hz works way better than planned.

detection works fine but 4:4 is not decimated.

with 59i i mean true 59i so 120 fields

i use these display modes: 1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60 and MadVR is not switching to 23 with force film mode and a 720p60 6:4 source normaly is always force 23.

[turbojet]

Same issue as huhn with ivtc p59 source, it stays on 60hz display and turns on smooth motion. Also I'm seeing random glitches on seeking and starting playback with it.

I haven't watched any shows yet but with a quick test found a troublesome show, it jumps between 6:4, unknown and 3:3, expect it to be 6:4 only. Here's a clip http://www.mediafire.com/download/r41e19scbe5ze73/cadence+deint%3Dfilm.mpg

[Nachbar]

Hey madshi, just got this at work:

OpenDNS has blocked madshi.net due to a security threat that was discovered by the Umbrella Labs. If you think this shouldn't be blocked, please contact your network administrator.

Not sure what security level we are using with OpenDNS but thought you should know.

[shimaflarex]

Hey madshi, just got this at work:

OpenDNS has blocked madshi.net due to a security threat that was discovered by the Umbrella Labs. If you think this shouldn't be blocked, please contact your network administrator.

Not sure what security level we are using with OpenDNS but thought you should know.

I've got a similar message trying to download the latest version, but in my case it was Comodo Firewall which was blocking. I had to disable its website "malware" filter (and I'll likely never enable it again).

[huhn]

Same issue as huhn with ivtc p59 source, it stays on 60hz display and turns on smooth motion. Also I'm seeing random glitches on seeking and starting playback with it.

I haven't watched any shows yet but with a quick test found a troublesome show, it jumps between 6:4, unknown and 3:3, expect it to be 6:4 only. Here's a clip http://www.mediafire.com/download/r41e19scbe5ze73/cadence+deint%3Dfilm.mpg

the logo is true 60 fps and there is a lot of very very low motion but the main film is 6:4. as long as logos like this are still there it is not possible to decimated this 100% correct. btw SM plus ivtc is a good thing in this case and is simply save.

[seiyafan]

So now I'm quite confused: to use needi 32 (at least) for image doubling 720P to 1080P and "tomorrow" 1080P to 4K what is the best choice? AMD or nVidia? And which card...with a "human" budget? GTX 750ti looks intersting with a great ratio price/performances but not good enough.

Last question: would it be better to wait for videocard with 2.0 HDMI?

P.S. I just need it for HTPC not gaming at all...

You can try 270x, it's faster than 750Ti.

[turbojet]

That p59 clip in my previous post is time compressed so it can't be ivtc'd correctly as far as I know. There's a few shows that have this crap, fortunately p59 hides it, too bad i29->p47/p59 does not. Filenames in profiles will be useful for this but how are they used? The "profile post" hasn't been updated to include it.

I watched a p59 show that wasn't time compressed and it worked well, gpu load went from 70-75 to 35-38. However I wished it switched to 48hz instead of staying at 60hz and turning on SM, it's a noticeable difference and I always prefer the former. I can understand the latter can be helpful for mixed content, any chance of a setting to control what you want?

[Knight77]

As huhn said, we should wait for 4k content to be more mainstream. After that, who knows where the industry will be GPU-wise, so we can hold "bang for your buck" contests at that point.

Personally though, with G-Sync right around the corner, the answer for me is obvious. In a perfect world, 4k media would become mainstream around the time I can purchase a 4k, g-sync enabled, wide-gamut (I believe they are naturally wide gamut?) 120hz OLED monitor around 24-30 inches. Hopefully everything ends up coming together really nicely like that.

Thanks for the reply, but let me inderstan : watching a 1080p on a 4K TV, I should use image doubling right?

[truexfan81]

between these two cards which would be better for madvr?

[THX-UltraII]

Someone knows if it s already possible to remove the OSD message 'EXCLUSIVE' when I start a movie? This is the last visual aspect of my 'cinema HTPC' I dislike.

[ryrynz]

You can't remove that, yet. My recommendation would be to just use the new windowed mode, it's most excellent.

[Soukyuu]

Did anything change with respect to smooth motion with the latest build? I am noticing weird "jumps" on fades now, as if it rewinds a few frames then plays them back at 2x speed to sync back. Wasn't present with the last stable build.

edit: definitely smooth motion. turning it off makes it choppier overall, but no jumps anymore. The jumps are also kind of hard to reproduce (two-three tries), but they always appear at the same fades between two scenes.

[Ver Greeneyes]

Did anything change with respect to smooth motion with the latest build? I am noticing weird "jumps" on fades now, as if it rewinds a few frames then plays them back at 2x speed to sync back. Wasn't present with the last stable build.
This sounds like the result of fade in/out detection for artifact removal. As a workaround, try checking "don't rerender frames when fade in/out is detected" in the trade quality for performance tab. Odd that it regressed, though.

[Telion]

Hello, madshi!
Can you please display effective scaling factors somewhere in the OSD? Something like this: "movie resolution X, Y (scaled: coefX, coefY)". I think it'd be rather convenient e.g. for easy estimation of involved scaling algorithms.

[StinDaWg]

madVR isn't switching to 23hz when IVTC 6:4 720p59.94 files for me on the latest build.

[seiyafan]

Thanks for the reply, but let me inderstan : watching a 1080p on a 4K TV, I should use image doubling right?

Yes, it's highly recommended.

[huhn]

between these two cards which would be better for madvr?

the 660 ti is a lot faster than the 660.

[madshi]

to use needi 32 (at least) for image doubling 720P to 1080P and "tomorrow" 1080P to 4K what is the best choice?
wait till you got an 4k TV.

there is no real 4K source no 4k BD so this will still take his time be for this is a good idea...
As huhn said, we should wait for 4k content to be more mainstream.
Knight77 was asking which GPU to use for playing back 1080p content on a 4K monitor. Doesn't make much sense IMHO to reply with saying that 4K content is missing. That's not what he was asking about at all. Playing back 1080p content on a 4K display absolutely makes sense, if you sit close enough to the screen to resolve significantly more than 2K resolution. In that situation using a 1080p screen would be similar to upscaling Blu-Rays to 4K by using Nearest Neighbor sampling.

@Knight77, unfortunately NNEDI3 image doubling is quite power hungry, so a high-end GPU will be needed for 1080p24 luma doubling with 32bit neurons. However, if you can live with 16 neurons for the time being, a much more modest GPU should do. E.g. my HD7770 can do luma doubling with 16 neurons for 1080p24 content with render times of 27.5ms. So there's even still some headroom left.

Whether today is a good day to buy a 4K display is another question, though, because most of today's 4K displays still have HDMI chips built in which are too slow. Only very few display have high speed (18 Gbps) HDMI 2.0 chips built in already.

I am not sure there is a good option for this, anything that can do it will be expensive right now. My Titan hits 25.6 ms rendering times using Bicubic75AR chroma, Bicubic75AR image, Catmull-Rom AR+LL downscaling, and NNEDI3 32 doubling, no smooth motion, no debanding, ordered dithering when watching 1080p24 -> 1440@72Hz. That doesn't leave a lot of room for 1080p30 content and these are fairly minimal settings.
25.6ms is good. With 24fps playback the sky is at about 40ms. So you have enough headroom left for things like debanding.

There is no 1080p30 content out there. 99.99% of all content is (after deinterlacing) either 24fps, 25fps, 50fps or 60fps. Maybe there are a few odd 30p video files out there, but that should really be extremely rare and not something you would pick a GPU for.

Personally I am waiting for HDMI 2.0 for my next card. 4K isn't very interesting if it maxes out at 30p and it looks like a lot of the new 4K TVs do not have DP.
Please be aware of that there are HDMI 2.0 chips with 2 different bandwidths: 10.2 Gbps or 18 Gbps. You want 18 Gbps.

Why the mode is being changed between "windowed" and "exclusive" on Ctrl+Win press? Can this be disabled? I use Ctrl+Win+Up/Down to change sound volume globally...
madVR does not react to specific Ctrl+Win key presses. It reacts only to other windows covering the madVR rendering window. My best guess would be that either your media player or your OS shows some kind of OSD/GUI when you change the sound volume and that OSD/GUI can only be shown properly in madVR "windowed" mode.

720p50(4:4)= detected as 4:4 SM trigger at 25 hz and a mass of ghosting so not working still 50fps [...]

i use these display modes: 1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60
First you say 25Hz, but your display mode list does not contain 1080p25. Now I'm confused. Did you use 1080p25 for this test or 1080p50 or something else?

i use these display modes: 1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60 and MadVR is not switching to 23 with force film mode and a 720p60 6:4 source
Same issue as huhn with ivtc p59 source, it stays on 60hz display and turns on smooth motion.
madVR isn't switching to 23hz when IVTC 6:4 720p59.94 files for me on the latest build.
I've only just implemented decimation and wanted to get your feedback on whether it's working correctly or not. I'm not actually sure whether madVR should be switching to a 23Hz display mode when decimating 60p content. More see below:

the logo is true 60 fps and there is a lot of very very low motion but the main film is 6:4. as long as logos like this are still there it is not possible to decimated this 100% correct. btw SM plus ivtc is a good thing in this case and is simply save.
50p/60p decimation is a bit different to 50i/60i IVTC. With 50i/60i content, if you turn on madVR film mode, you will only get correct results if the content is actually a movie. Practically that means that madVR relies on your decision to turn on film mode. As a result it can safely switch to 23Hz, because the content must be film, otherwise playback would be full of combing artifacts. So there's no way 60Hz would be correct. So switching to 23Hz is a safe decision.

With 50p/60p decimation the situation is very different: If you force on film mode, madVR will still produce a "good" output even if the content isn't film. So basically you could turn on film mode for all 50p/60p content, even for sports and music concerts. madVR should detect that and should only throw away duplicate frames if the source is really a movie. This means that 50p/60p decimation is actually better than 50i/60i IVTC, in that it more or less already contains a film vs video detection. That, however, means that it suddenly isn't sure, anymore, which refresh rate is the right one to switch to. If the content is film, switching to 23Hz would make sense. But if it isn't film, switching to 60Hz would be more appropriate. In theory madVR could switch back and forth between 23Hz and 60Hz, depending on the current state of the film vs video detection. But this could result in display modes switching back and forth e.g. if there are TV station video mode overlays over film mode content, which would not be cool. Because of that currently I think madVR should probably stay at 60Hz, because thanks to Smooth Motion FRC 60Hz works ok for both film and video content, and for mixed content, too.

Also I'm seeing random glitches on seeking and starting playback with it.
What kind of glitches? Are the glitches the same with the same video file? If so, having a sample would help.

I watched a p59 show that wasn't time compressed and it worked well, gpu load went from 70-75 to 35-38. However I wished it switched to 48hz instead of staying at 60hz and turning on SM, it's a noticeable difference and I always prefer the former. I can understand the latter can be helpful for mixed content, any chance of a setting to control what you want?
Not sure if I want to add further controls at this point. Before even thinking about that I'd like to know whether 50p/60p decimation by itself works correctly. Meaning: If you manually make sure that smooth motion FRC and the refresh rate are set to the correct values, is playback "perfect" then? If that's the case, maybe we can talk about which refresh rate madVR should use and whether we need options for that.

Filenames in profiles will be useful for this but how are they used?
Like any other variable, except that wild cards are supported. E.g. you could do "if (fileName = "*blabla*")".

Did anything change with respect to smooth motion with the latest build?
No. At least not intentionally. Please double check with older versions to make sure it's really a new issue which only occurs with the latest madVR build.


Hey madshi, just got this at work:

OpenDNS has blocked madshi.net due to a security threat that was discovered by the Umbrella Labs. If you think this shouldn't be blocked, please contact your network administrator.

Not sure what security level we are using with OpenDNS but thought you should know.
I've got a similar message trying to download the latest version, but in my case it was Comodo Firewall which was blocking. I had to disable its website "malware" filter (and I'll likely never enable it again).
Can you guys please complain to OpenDNS/Comodo, so that they remove the false alarm? That would be great - thanks!

Hello, madshi!
Can you please display effective scaling factors somewhere in the OSD? Something like this: "movie resolution X, Y (scaled: coefX, coefY)". I think it'd be rather convenient e.g. for easy estimation of involved scaling algorithms.
A lot of things would be nice to have in the OSD. However, if I had added everything any user has asked for in the past, the OSD would already cover 5 pages. So I have to say "no" to things I don't consider crucial. You can calculate the scaling factor by looking at the movie resolution and the target rectangle, both of which are already listed in the OSD. So adding the scaling factors would be more or less duplicate information. So no, at this point I don't want to add that, sorry.

[Knight77]

You can't remove that, yet. My recommendation would be to just use the new windowed mode, it's most excellent.

So you're saying that the new windowed mode (what's new?) is better than exclusive one? Why? Can you tell me more about it?

[madshi]

No, exclusive mode is and will remain the best mode to use. But for many people the new windowed mode may just be "good enough" in that sense that playback is already perfect.

[n3w813]

Received my EVGA GTX 750Ti SuperClock yesterday and was able to achieve the following MadVR settings without frame drops in my environment

HTPC Specs
Intel i3-2120T
8GB
EVGA GTX 750Ti 2GB
Windows 7 SP1 32bit
Nvidia drivers 335.23 WHQL
1920x1080@59p resolution output to TV

MadVR Global Settings
Image Downscaling: Catmull-Rom AR LL
Deband: Low/High
Dithering: ED1, colored noise, change every frame
SmoothMotion: Always
3DLUT: Enabled
All ‘trade quality for performance’ unchecked

MadVR Profiles
720p24
Image Doubling: NNEDI luma doubling 32 neurons
Image Upscaling: Jinc3 AR
Chroma Upscaling: Jinc3 AR
720p30
Image Doubling: NNEDI luma doubling 16 neurons
Image Upscaling: Jinc3 AR
Chroma Upscaling: Jinc3 AR
1080p24
Image Doubling: Off
Image Upscaling: Jinc4 AR
Chroma Upscaling: Jinc4 AR

[Stereodude]

Whether today is a good day to buy a 4K display is another question, though, because most of today's 4K displays still have HDMI chips built in which are too slow. Only very few display have high speed (18 Gbps) HDMI 2.0 chips built in already.
I think the video card side of it is the bigger issue. Some of the new 2014 4K TVs are promising full 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 and there are upgrades in the works for the older models. However, I haven't seen any video cards advertising HDMI 2.0 support.

[madshi]

I think the video card side of it is the bigger issue. Some of the new 2014 4K TVs are promising full 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 and there are upgrades in the works for the older models. However, I haven't seen any video cards advertising HDMI 2.0 support.
I'm not sure about how this works in relation to GPUs. Many GPUs already support DisplayPort 1.2 which has a bandwidth of 17.28 Gbps, which is almost the same as the higher speed HDMI 2.0 bandwidth. There are DisplayPort <-> HDMI adapters available, I think. So in theory it might be possible that a GPU with DisplayPort 1.2 support could drive an HDMI 2.0 display with near 18 Gbps. But I don't know if it works this way in real life. My overall impression is that GPU outputs are somewhat more flexible than standard CE HDMI chips. Which could mean that some features could be added through new drivers. But most of what I'm writing here is pure speculation. Haven't read anything specific about this yet.

In any case, from my point of view changing GPUs is something we do rather often and is not that much of a problem. Selling a GPU from last year via Ebay is also not a big problem. Changing displays is much more problematic. At least that's my point of view. So personally, my display buying decisions would not depend in any way on GPU stuff, because the GPU is so easy to replace/upgrade.

Edit: Actually, DisplayPort 1.2 has already *more* bandwidth than the fastest HDMI 2.0 variant.

[huhn]

First you say 25Hz, but your display mode list does not contain 1080p25. Now I'm confused. Did you use 1080p25 for this test or 1080p50 or something else?

i set it up manual after madvr was entering 59 fps with a 720p60 file.

so 4:4 does nothing but doesn't harm too. an easy way to check this is by pressing control + arrow key right if this work you don't get a repeated frame like with a 6:4 source.

..., because thanks to Smooth Motion FRC 60Hz works ok for both film and video content, and for mixed content, too.

SM doesn't always trigger if IVTC is used and goes "wrong" if force..

for example the 720 60i sample i created with 5:5 cadence doesn't trigger SM at 60 hz and forcing it doesn't work well too, but IVTC looks totally fine. of cause i have to double check this with a viable file.


There is no 1080p30 content out there. 99.99% of all content is (after deinterlacing) either 24fps, 25fps, 50fps or 60fps. Maybe there are a few odd 30p video files out there, but that should really be extremely rare and not something you would pick a GPU for.

nearly all toei animations are hybrid with 2:2 and 3:2/4:2:2:2 contend. they do for example one piece, this is a pretty big deal world wide and they do a lot more.

2:2 is maybe not that unusual as you think. and to add 1080p30 to a disc there is no way around 1080p30i.

[truexfan81]

i am having a strange issue with madvr today, 1080i29 video using madvr's dxva deinterlace its constantly dropping frames, gpu usage is at 60% all queues are full, smooth motion is turned off

edit: seems to do it with LAV cuvid deinterlace also

and progressive 59.94fps videos, only seems to do it when monitor is set to 59.94Hz when set to 60Hz it doesn't have this problem

[madshi]

so 4:4 does nothing but doesn't harm too. an easy way to check this is by pressing control + arrow key right if this work you don't get a repeated frame like with a 6:4 source.
You're right, ctrl+arrow proves that 50p decimation doesn't really work atm. Could you please create a bug tracker entry for this?

SM doesn't always trigger if IVTC is used and goes "wrong" if force..

for example the 720 60i sample i created with 5:5 cadence doesn't trigger SM at 60 hz and forcing it doesn't work well too, but IVTC looks totally fine. of cause i have to double check this with a viable file.
I don't understand what you're saying. And talking about 5:5 60i samples doesn't make it any easier for me to understand. I've added 50p and 60p decimation support, not 5:5 60i decimation support.

nearly all toei animations are hybrid with 2:2 and 3:2/4:2:2:2 contend. they do for example one piece, this is a pretty big deal world wide and they do a lot more.

2:2 is maybe not that unusual as you think. and to add 1080p30 to a disc there is no way around 1080p30i.
I'm not familiar with the term "1080p30i". Google just finds 39 hits for that term, so it means pretty much nobody is using it. Blu-Ray either supports 1080p24 encoding or 1080i60 encoding. Nothing else, as far as I'm aware.

Ok, I know that some anime content is sometimes using 30fps for some scenes, but I've not seen this very often yet. Maybe I've just watched the "wrong" anime series so far... :)

So are toei Blu-Rays encoded as 1080i60 (= 1080i30)?

i am having a strange issue with madvr today, 1080i29 video using madvr's dxva deinterlace its constantly dropping frames, gpu usage is at 60% all queues are full, smooth motion is turned off

edit: seems to do it with LAV cuvid deinterlace also

and progressive 59.94fps videos, only seems to do it when monitor is set to 59.94Hz when set to 60Hz it doesn't have this problem
Maybe your 59.94Hz setting is too slow (e.g. 59.90Hz instead of 59.94Hz), which would mean madVR has to constantly drop frames to keep audio and video in sync.

[Soukyuu]

No. At least not intentionally. Please double check with older versions to make sure it's really a new issue which only occurs with the latest madVR build....you won't like the results :x
- 0.87.0 = no issue in both windowed and exclusive modes
- 0.87.1 .. 0.87.9 = no issue in windowed mode, jerky fades in exclusive.
- 0.87.10 = jerky fades in both windowed and exclusive.

I first thought it was the source, but once I watched some older series I knew there was definitely something wrong as there were no such skips previously. Also disabling fade detection fixes it. That, or disabling "present several frames in advance" in either windowed (no overlay) or fullscreen mode. The only reason I noticed it is that now we have "present several frames in advance" in windowed mode also... I find the exclusive switch flicker to be very annoying so I never test that mode. I have tried increasing GPU buffers, but it doesn't help, nor do I see any queues dropping to 0. Also no dropped frames. Not knowing the code, it seems like "present several frames in advance" clashes with "rerender if fade detected".

[madshi]

Can you please create a bug tracker entry for this? Ideally with a download link to a sample where the jerky motion is especially obvious. Thanks.

[Stereodude]

I'm not sure about how this works in relation to GPUs. Many GPUs already support DisplayPort 1.2 which has a bandwidth of 17.28 Gbps, which is almost the same as the higher speed HDMI 2.0 bandwidth. There are DisplayPort <-> HDMI adapters available, I think. So in theory it might be possible that a GPU with DisplayPort 1.2 support could drive an HDMI 2.0 display with near 18 Gbps. But I don't know if it works this way in real life. My overall impression is that GPU outputs are somewhat more flexible than standard CE HDMI chips. Which could mean that some features could be added through new drivers. But most of what I'm writing here is pure speculation. Haven't read anything specific about this yet.

In any case, from my point of view changing GPUs is something we do rather often and is not that much of a problem. Selling a GPU from last year via Ebay is also not a big problem. Changing displays is much more problematic. At least that's my point of view. So personally, my display buying decisions would not depend in any way on GPU stuff, because the GPU is so easy to replace/upgrade.

Edit: Actually, DisplayPort 1.2 has already *more* bandwidth than the fastest HDMI 2.0 variant.
You would need an active DP1.2 to HDMI2.0 adapter. DP1.2 requires multi-stream for UHD@60Hz RGB. It's beyond the specification for a single stream. That means a passive DP1.2 to HDMI2.0 adapter isn't possible.

[huhn]

I'm not familiar with the term "1080p30i". Google just finds 39 hits for that term, so it means pretty much nobody is using it. Blu-Ray either supports 1080p24 encoding or 1080i60 encoding. Nothing else, as far as I'm aware.

Ok, I know that some anime content is sometimes using 30fps for some scenes, but I've not seen this very often yet. Maybe I've just watched the "wrong" anime series so far...

So are toei Blu-Rays encoded as 1080i60 (= 1080i30)?

non toei animes are usual 23p. but toei does most of the mainstream program.

the Doki doki precure BD 1 is 1080i30 opening is constant 2:2 and the ed is constant 4:2:2:2. the main film is 2:2 all parts i checked so 2:2 in general. so very good deinterlacing with inverse telecine (like nvidia and amd good) should not harm the 2:2 parts but creates judder at 4:2:2:2 or 3:2 parts. and the impact on the gpu is very very high. i don't have all toei BD so i can't say all and i'm pretty sure there movies are 23p.

with 1080p30i i mean 60 fields and 1080pixel
the 1080(p)ixel not normally used but used for progressive. so i try to stick with 1080i30

I don't understand what you're saying. And talking about 5:5 60i samples doesn't make it any easier for me to understand. I've added 50p and 60p decimation support, not 5:5 60i decimation support.

i come back to this when i'm able to reproduce this with a 30i 60 field source not a 60i 120 field source.

[Ver Greeneyes]

I'm pretty sure the number after the i refers to the number of fields, so 1080i60 is 60 fields per second, or 30 full frames per second. Of course calling it 30 frames per second would be a misnomer since each field is temporally distinct from the next, and good quality deinterlacing would produce 60 frames per second to make use of the temporal information.

[nevcairiel]

Edit: Actually, DisplayPort 1.2 has already *more* bandwidth than the fastest HDMI 2.0 variant.

While that's technically correct, in practice a single DisplayPort 1.2 link cannot run 4k@60Hz. You need to use multistream, which essentially mimicks two streams and requires the GPU driver to piece it together properly. In short, it's a huge inconvenience and in practice I don't trust it to work properly.

As of today, there is no proper way to run 4k@60 on a consumer GPU. Sad but true.

Not to mention high bit depth or high frame rate.

[The 8472]

While that's technically correct, in practice a single DisplayPort 1.2 link cannot run 4k@60Hz. You need to use multistream, which essentially mimicks two streams and requires the GPU driver to piece it together properly. In short, it's a huge inconvenience and in practice I don't trust it to work properly.

As of today, there is no proper way to run 4k@60 on a consumer GPU. Sad but true.

Not to mention high bit depth or high frame rate.

The 4k samsung monitor due next month is supposed to be able to do single-stream transport 4k at 60Hz. Or so reviews claim.
http://techreport.com/news/26337/samsung-28-display-serves-up-single-tile-4k-at-60hz-for-800

And the marketing page mentions 1 billion colors, which generally means 10bit support.

[huhn]

While that's technically correct, in practice a single DisplayPort 1.2 link cannot run 4k@60Hz. You need to use multistream, which essentially mimicks two streams and requires the GPU driver to piece it together properly. In short, it's a huge inconvenience and in practice I don't trust it to work properly.

As of today, there is no proper way to run 4k@60 on a consumer GPU. Sad but true.

Not to mention high bit depth or high frame rate.
do you mean the used lane with this for 4k60 4 lanes are used with dp 1.2
or is this a GPU limitation not using the offical 4k60 support from display port.

the display port spec clearly says 3840 × 2160 × 30 bpp @ 60 Hz.

i have a 120 fps screen connected with dvi at the moment but with 120 fps DP support and only 60 fps hdmi support this need more then 1 lane too. i don't have a DP cable so i can't test it but problems with high-bandwidth should be well know. nvidia already supports surround 4k... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3wpgjM2Tic


I'm pretty sure the number after the i refers to the number of fields, so 1080i60 is 60 fields per second, or 30 full frames per second. Of course calling it 30 frames per second would be a misnomer since each field is temporally distinct from the next, and good quality deinterlacing would produce 60 frames per second to make use of the temporal information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080i
The frame rate can be implied by the context, while the field rate is generally specified after the letter i, such as "1080i60". In this case 1080i60 refers to 60 fields per second. The European Broadcasting Union (EBU) prefers to use the resolution and frame rate (not field rate) separated by a slash, as in 1080i/30 and 1080i/25, likewise 480i/30 and 576i/25.[2] Resolutions of 1080i60 or 1080i50 often refers to 1080i/30 or 1080i/25 in EBU notation.

why using fields if we can use for both frames??

[nevcairiel]

do you mean the used lane with this for 4k60 4 lanes are used with dp 1.2
or is this a GPU limitation not using the offical 4k60 support from display port.

the display port spec clearly says 3840 × 2160 × 30 bpp @ 60 Hz.

The final truth still is that as of today no released screen ever supported this.

For madVR for me its far more important to have a TV anyway, sitting in front of a small PC monitor isn't the same fun as relaxing on the couch.
And that'll need HDMI 2.0, and its doubtful active DP adapters are going to be a really big thing for that. Hopefully the next gen cards will support HDMI 2.0 (or maybe even older cards with driver updates!).


i have a 120 fps screen connected with dvi at the moment but with 120 fps DP support and only 60 fps hdmi support this need more then 1 lane too.
1080p at 120 fps is still only half the bandwidth of 2160p at 60Hz. The image is 4 times as large, afterall.

[huhn]

The final truth still is that as of today no released screen ever supported this.[quote]
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&sku=860-BBCD

it supports 10 bit input and is full 60 fps but it is a 8 bit display (it dithers the input to 8 bit)

[quote]1080p at 120 fps is still only half the bandwidth of 2160p at 60Hz. The image is 4 times as large, afterall.

but i'm still not sure if you are talking about 2 cables or 2 signals in the cable?

i can do 144 too, this should need 3 of 4 lanes but i don't know the spec in detail.

[The 8472]

The final truth still is that as of today no released screen ever supported this.
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&sku=860-BBCD

it supports 10 bit input and is full 60 fps but it is a 8 bit display (it dithers the input to 8 bit)

nevcairiel was talking about single stream transport I think. the UP2414Q uses MST for 4k.

See my previous post for a SST-capable 4k monitor. Should already be available in the US, here in the EU we still have to wait a few days.

but i'm still not sure if you are talking about 2 cables or 2 signals in the cable?

My understanding is that the data streams are not the same as the lanes in the cable. MST essentially emulates 2 separate monitors multiplexed over the 4 data lanes.

[nevcairiel]

Yeah, MST is just messy, it randomly freaks out various applications as they think you run two screens.
No idea why the vendors ever thought that was a good idea.

[leeperry]

Regarding picture files in PotP, its built-in splitter declares a 10fps frame rate:
Input type:RGB
Input size:2592 x 3872
Output type:
Output Size:0 x 0
Frame Rate:10.00

If I setup "1080p24, 1080p30, 1080p50, 1080p60" for mVR automatic rolling, 30Hz will be picked but then my 29.97fps movies will also run in 30Hz when I obviously prefer the smoother looking 60Hz mouse pointer...is there any way I could have mVR roll 60Hz for 10fps? I would thoroughly enjoy a "treat 10p still frames as 60p" checkbox :o

[nevcairiel]

If you prefer 60Hz for your 29.97fps movies, why even list 1080p30?

In any case, madVR picks the closest integer multiple, which in this case is simply 30 Hz. :)

[madshi]

the Doki doki precure BD 1 is 1080i30 opening is constant 2:2 and the ed is constant 4:2:2:2. the main film is 2:2 all parts i checked so 2:2 in general.
Can you create a sample for me with the opening and a part of the ed, so that madVR detects both 2:2 and 4:2:2:2? Maybe I can try getting 4:2:2:2 decimation to work properly, if it's used so often for anime. For that I'd need a sample which clearly demonstrates how decimation currently removes the wrong frames. Maybe you could make a bug entry in the bug tracker for this, too? If you want to keep the sample private, you can PM me the download link.

with 1080p30i i mean 60 fields and 1080pixel
the 1080(p)ixel not normally used but used for progressive. so i try to stick with 1080i30
The "p" doesn't stand for "pixel", it stands for "progressive". So it's either 1080p24 which means 1080progressive24, or it's 1080i60, which means 1080interlaced60. So you see, 1080p30i would mean 1080progressive30interlaced, which doesn't make much sense.

why using fields if we can use for both frames??
Some people prefer the term "1080i30", others prefer "1080i60". Both terms mean the same thing. And both make some sense.

The key reason why I personally prefer the term "1080i60" is that native video content (e.g. sports) consists of 60 different interlaced fields, which were all recorded at a different point in time. Interpreting that as 30 frames is just wrong IMHO, because none of these fields belong together. Maybe you'd prefer "1080i30" because you're thinking of telecined 2:2 Anime content, which originally was 30p. But after the telecine the 30 frames were converted into 60 interlaced fields. So while in this situation "1080i30" would make sense, "1080i60" still makes sense, too. At the same time, for native video content, "1080i60" fits much better, IMHO.

Anyway, let's not bother too much about terms. I've given up many years ago trying to convince other people to use "1080i60". If you prefer "1080i30", that's just fine with me. Please don't use "1080i60" if you mean 60 interlaced *frames* (= 120 interlaced fields), though, because that would be highly prone to misinterpretation.

[leeperry]

If you prefer 60Hz for your 29.97fps movies, why even list 1080p30?

In any case, madVR picks the closest integer multiple, which in this case is simply 30 Hz. :)
That's my point, if I don't put p30 then mVR will pick p50 for pictures and I'm not too fond of how my TV's BFI looks at 50Hz. It also forces my TV to resync whenever I want to open a JPG/PNG file.

Anyway, I guess it makes as little sense to ask PotP's coder to declare 30/60fps for pictures as to ask madshi to care about still frames at all, reading still frames in a media player is essentially a giant kludge..