madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[brazen1]

I've been using W10 20H2 for about a month on my workstation/HTPC with MadVR, etc. All is well. Everything is updated to the latest, Kodi 19 nightly, LAV, various players, nVidia, etc. etc. One thing stands out on my setup after upgrading to 20H2 - Windows desktop color saturation.

Video has always been as spot on as it can be and still is after the upgrade. Nothing changed. What changed drastically is the Windows desktop. It's always looked a bit drab when it comes to colors and blacks. I could compensate by changing some settings in my panel to make Windows look more vibrant and blacker without crushing but then it destroys the video playback and who wants to toggle settings video vs desktop, so I always lived with it. Not that it was terrible or anything.

Now with 20H2, the colors and the blacks have come alive. I notice it in web video. I first noticed it in the start menu. All the yellow folders and the pinned icons look so much better. Many things including GUI's of different apps look so much better. No settings anywhere were changed and it isn't coincidence. I even reverted back to 1909 (toggling from 1909 vs 20H2 in essence) without upgrading or downgrading anything and compared. Considering I've done many, many O/S versions throughout time, this 20H2 is something special imo... at least for me.

The only way I can describe it is - You know when you enable Windows HDR... and you navigate things throughout Windows, apps, etc. Some things look sort of overly saturated but appealing. Other things look horrible. What I see now is appealing and nothing horrible. This with Windows HDR OFF of course.

Maybe it just likes my old GTX 960 or something? Has anyone else noticed this?

[tp4tissue]

Based on experience, it's not the frequency of updates but their timing. I play it very safe on my HTPC and only update about 6 months after a Windows release and I've never had any problems even though I'm not using LTSC (I will very soon update to 20H2, as now the H1 and H2 builds share the same core).
Most of the time the problems are with GPU drivers or the OS itself and get resolved after a few weeks.
IIRC I've only seen one issue with Windows 10 where a change was needed in madVR itself, and it was resolved by madshi after some months.I was comparing the performance with "scale chroma separately" (in trade quality for performance options) checked and unchecked, with 4K video on a 1440 display. I thought that didn't work but it was a misguided assumption from when I was using NGU for chroma (you can't use a doubling scaler for it to work, as huhn mentioned).
Of course the case with an even bigger performance gain is where display def = exact half of video def.

That's pretty neat. Buhhhh.. it's blasphemous to watch 4K on NON-4K screens. A War-Crime..

You will be tried and found guilty of Treason, Madshi himself will sentence you to 10 years of rock breaking. :eek:

[VBB]

@brazen1 - As you know, we both have almost the same exact rig, but I can't say that I've noticed anything different when I upgraded last month. I did a clean install, though, and I use a black background and never really access the start menu. I'm also mismatching levels intentionally by having the video card set to full and the TV to limited. Perhaps that's why I can't tell a difference ;)

And speaking of outdated/unsupported hardware... brazen and I both run 12-year old CPUs and mobos! No issue with any of the five! major OS's I've had installed throughout the years :)

[brazen1]

I too use a black background along with all the apps that offer 'dark themes' such as MPC. Mismatching levels is the cure for desktop in the setting changes I mentioned but not for video for me. Full, Full, Full here and I understand the panel differences require it. It really is a testament how significant the GPU role is in relationship to our other ancient hardware and even our GPU's are outdated.

That said, I, and perhaps you have little reason to upgrade assuming you also passthrough... and why wouldn't you. I do admit the 960 does not have enough oomph to use MadVR denoising with 2160p HDR and I'd like to have that for older titles that were remastered from film that contained a lot of grain to begin with. Newer digital titles are fine without it though. Even HDR 2160p 60Hz Gemini Man. Probably one of the best cameras used. Aircraft Carrier is another. I've had denoising mapped to my remote so when a noisy title is played I can simply toggle it on and repeat through the intensities until it cleans up. Only on non-HDR titles though. It's probably the most go to fine adjustment I make in real time playback and I'm so, so happy madshi created it for us. Big thank you if you're still monitoring this thread.

That said, I can't justify upgrading my 960 basically just for that - Not at todays rip-off pricing nor last years, nor the year before that. And what owners are selling their used units for... another complete joke. They can keep them or let some other thrifty nut job buy my share.

[VBB]

I'm a purist and a masochist, apparently, so I don't mind grain or stutter. Gives me even less of a reason to upgrade in the near future, although the 960 has been showing signs of aging lately (occasional freezes followed by hard reset). I can live with it for now. Next year might be the time to build a new PC from scratch along with getting a replacement for the trusty C7.

[brazen1]

Personally, I'm waiting for a Windows MadVR update that will force me to upgrade. (crosses fingers) That or 8k down the road when releases are abundant. Until then, I remain perfectly happy as is.

[tp4tissue]

Has anyone else noticed that 60hz kind of smears 24fps content.. Whereas if you have matched refresh, the frames look more stochastic but also more clear.

[huhn]

I meant minus 55% performance with the option unchecked, so it does indeed saves performance. Or, if you prefer to phrase it another way, more than 2x the rendering time if the save performance option is not checked.

my point is that you have to disable 2x chroma scaler for 1420p+ output for an UHD source.

[ryrynz]

Has anyone else noticed that 60hz kind of smears 24fps content.. Whereas if you have matched refresh, the frames look more stochastic but also more clear.

You have Smooth Motion enabled I assume. Yes at 60Hz frame blending gives a noticeable reduction of clarity in motion. At 120Hz it's much less of an issue. Ideally match the refresh at 60Hz.

[el Filou]

That's pretty neat. Buhhhh.. it's blasphemous to watch 4K on NON-4K screens. A War-Crime..Yeah but it's on my desktop, I don't really watch movies on it and don't plan on getting a 4K display for it. :)my point is that you have to disable 2x chroma scaler for 1420p+ output for an UHD source.Yes, I understood that, and I confirm that it works if you do that. I must have been using NGU chroma when I tested that option a long time ago which is why I had wrongly concluded that it didn't work in that scenario, but now I'm using ReconSoft and it works.

[tp4tissue]

You have Smooth Motion enabled I assume. Yes at 60Hz frame blending gives a noticeable reduction of clarity in motion. At 120Hz it's much less of an issue. Ideally match the refresh at 60Hz.

I do not have smooth motion enabled. :eek:

I think it has to do with the frame hold times of the TV.

[ryrynz]

I do not have smooth motion enabled. :eek:

I think it has to do with the frame hold times of the TV.Sounds like it.

[petran79]

Still using w10 1803 and madvr works fine,though I use It on desktop. On laptop where performance suffers, MPC vidéo decoder offers also good quality without heating the GPU too much.

[mrmarioman]

is there a way for madvr to change to 10-12 bit automatically when it detects a hdr movie? kinda annoying having to change it every time in nvidia control panel.

[ang3l]

recently bought a panasonic hz1000, connected with an amd rx480, windows 10 1909, latest amd driver 20.11.2

I have a problem with the sdr black levels, when windows recognizes the display as compatible with hdr it darkens the black level, in the black clipping test practically nothing flashes, but also has effect also on the desktop

but if in the tv settings I turn off an hdr option that make to appear the tv as not compatible for hdr in windows the black levels then are perfect

so what it can be?, what does windows when it recognizes an hdr tv even if the use hdr option is off?

[VBB]

@mrmarioman - madVR has no control over the driver settings. Depending on the display, 8-bit can actually be better. You didn't give us any info on your setup. Assuming you are running the desktop at 60Hz 8-bit, the video driver will switch to a higher bit rate automatically when going to a lower refresh rate, if you set it manually once.

[VBB]

@ang3l - since you are using madVR, you should not be switching Windows into HDR mode manually. Windows shouldn't do anything differently. Sounds like the AMD driver is doing something.

[LordX2]

Hopefully one of my last questions:

Since I am using the HDR to SDR tone mapping with MadVR - my PJ is in SDR mode with BT.709 color settings.

Should I set the display to being calibrated for BT.709 in MadVR settings? Or is this redundant?

[VBB]

Yes, you should. Match gamma as well. The more madVR knows about your setup, the better.

[ang3l]

@ang3l - since you are using madVR, you should not be switching Windows into HDR mode manually. Windows shouldn't do anything differently. Sounds like the AMD driver is doing something.

yes, windows is in sdr mode, "play hdr game and apps" turned off and also the tv recognize the input signal as sdr

I forgot to report that the skin tones are way too reddish, so it may also be related to wide color gamut in some way, but in the amd radeon settings panel there is nothing about it, I tried to switch between rgb full range, limited, YcbCr 4:4:4 etc, but there is no effect, always darkened blacklevels and oversaturated colors

on the tv I tried to change all the settings, but the only one that works is that "setup hdmi hdr", which turn off the hdr functionality for the selected hdmi port

p.s.

another thing, if I leave that option on the tv on, so the hdmi on the tv is able to receive hdr metadata, but I connect the pc to the tv through my avr that is limited to 1080p with no uhd funciontality the black levels are correct

just to dimostrate that is not that option on the tv that turn wcg on for the incoming signal

I also tried to output the desktop at 1920x1080 connecting the pc directly to the tv, but nothing, windows recognize an hdr capable display and black levels/colors are wrongs

[VBB]

Sounds like your gamut and black levels are wrong. I don't know about Panasonic's, but if there's an AUTO setting for gamut, use that. For black levels, it depends on what you set for the video card, but the display needs to match that. If blacks are crushed, then there's a mismatch.

[mrmarioman]

@mrmarioman - madVR has no control over the driver settings. Depending on the display, 8-bit can actually be better. You didn't give us any info on your setup. Assuming you are running the desktop at 60Hz 8-bit, the video driver will switch to a higher bit rate automatically when going to a lower refresh rate, if you set it manually once.

I have a Sony X900F TV connected to my PC.
Madvr allows you to automatically change the resolution and refresh rate of the display depending on the movie source you play, but not the bit depth. Which is a bit of a nuisance having to manually change from 8 bit to 10 depending on the movie. I was hoping there was a way.

[LordX2]

Yes, you should. Match gamma as well. The more madVR knows about your setup, the better.

My PJ is set on 'gamma 7' - which I believe is a SONY thing - not to one of the numbers like 2.2 or 2.4.

[VBB]

@mrmarioman - if your display doesn't have any issues with 10/12-bit, why not just keep it at that for everything? I don't understand why you would want to switch depending on the movie.

[VBB]

@LordX2 - According to Sony "Gamma 7: Produces a sharper picture by emphasizing darker parts". Seems to be the darkest out of the available special modes, but unclear if it targets 2.2 or 2.4. Since you tonemap with madVR, it would be good if you entered the correct value there.

[mrmarioman]

@mrmarioman - if your display doesn't have any issues with 10/12-bit, why not just keep it at that for everything? I don't understand why you would want to switch depending on the movie.

Well, my TV at 10 bit only allows for 4:2:2. And I use it for gaming etc. So full RGB is needed sometimes. I guess with HDMI 2.1 TV's this will be a non-issue.

[VBB]

Yeah, there's no automatic way to switch between color spaces, but again, you could simply leave the driver at RGB all the time and then auto-switch between 8 and 12-bit automatically depending on refresh rate. RGB should be superior to YCbCr 4:2:2 anyway.

[claw]

yes, windows is in sdr mode, "play hdr game and apps" turned off and also the tv recognize the input signal as sdr

I forgot to report that the skin tones are way too reddish, so it may also be related to wide color gamut in some way, but in the amd radeon settings panel there is nothing about it, I tried to switch between rgb full range, limited, YcbCr 4:4:4 etc, but there is no effect, always darkened blacklevels and oversaturated colors

on the tv I tried to change all the settings, but the only one that works is that "setup hdmi hdr", which turn off the hdr functionality for the selected hdmi port

p.s.

another thing, if I leave that option on the tv on, so the hdmi on the tv is able to receive hdr metadata, but I connect the pc to the tv through my avr that is limited to 1080p with no uhd funciontality the black levels are correct

just to dimostrate that is not that option on the tv that turn wcg on for the incoming signal

I also tried to output the desktop at 1920x1080 connecting the pc directly to the tv, but nothing, windows recognize an hdr capable display and black levels/colors are wrongs

Do you have Report BT2020 to Display set in MadVR? Try turning it off. I believe that this option will send HDR metadata even if MadVR is tone mapping to SDR. A dark overly red picture could be a sign that your TV is switching to its HDR picture mode.

[ang3l]

Do you have Report BT2020 to Display set in MadVR? Try turning it off. I believe that this option will send HDR metadata even if MadVR is tone mapping to SDR. A dark overly red picture could be a sign that your TV is switching to its HDR picture mode.

the problem is that even the desktop is darkened, I have a wallpaper with some gray shades, that with thease wrongs blacklevels are all black

the only things that works is to turn off on the tv that option "setup hdmi hdr", that basically tell to connected device that is not able to receive hdr metadata

the level of this option are, "dynamic" (to accept hdr10+ e dolby vision metadata), "static" (to accept only static metadata), off

when this option on the tv is off windows works with correct color gamma e blacklevels, because recognize the tv as not capable hdr display

when the option is on, the tv remain in sdr, but blacklevels and colors are wrong

all other options on the tv related to hdmi, rgb/ycbcr range etc are useless, without any effect

anyway i tried another pc with a rtx2060, and everythings works correctly and I don't have to force the tv to appear to windows as not hdr display

so it's an amd driver/settings problem but i don't see any settings that could fix this issue

the only solution is to switch on and off the option on the tv when i have to play any hdr content :|

[QBhd]

What driver version are you on?

QB

[oldpainlesskodi]

If it's of any help, try win10-radeon-pro-software-enterprise-20.q3.1-sep11.

Installs fine for my RX, and has correct black levels for SDR and HDR (other drivers versions I have tried crushes the blacks slightly, as where, on my set up, this driver passes the Mehanik HDR10 black level test).

I would also recommend a clean install (using amdcleanuputility or ddu).

[huhn]

there where no known issues with AMD card regarding to black levels. did i miss something?

[oldpainlesskodi]

Might be just my setup, but with the latest lot of drivers I lose about 2-3 bars on the black levels running the Mehanik HDR10 black level test, but using 20.q3.1 they show correctly.

I should add, now running full-full-full chain.

[traykov77]

Hi, is it normal to have 50-70 dropped frames when watching whole movie? My videocard is Nvidia 1070 , potplayer, whatever settings to put in madvr and tried custorm resolution always have 50-70 droped frames. MAdvr change resolution to 2160p23 automatically when play movie.

[ang3l]

ok i solved the issue upgrading to windows 20h2

still has the same problem in YCbCr 4:4:4 but now changing the rx480 to RGB FULL and the tv to FULL range everything works as it should

with windows 1909 there was no way, it wasn't working at RGB FULL nor in YCbCr 4:4:4

with the rtx nvidia 2060 was working in every mode also with windows 1909

anyway just seen 1917 with madvr perfect automatic switching in amd hdr, great shadows details, wooowww :)

[tp4tissue]

Hopefully one of my last questions:

Since I am using the HDR to SDR tone mapping with MadVR - my PJ is in SDR mode with BT.709 color settings.

Should I set the display to being calibrated for BT.709 in MadVR settings? Or is this redundant?

That would definitely be wrong.

The projector should not clamp its gamut, it should use full gamut at all times.

Without a colorimeter, Even in the case of SDR, it may as well use wide gamut as long as gamma tracking/grey balance is good.

Converting HDR to SDR does not mean you should use a lower gamut.

Without a colorimeter, madvr just needs to know what gamut your Device is, and approximately how bright it can get.

[tp4tissue]

Might be just my setup, but with the latest lot of drivers I lose about 2-3 bars on the black levels running the Mehanik HDR10 black level test, but using 20.q3.1 they show correctly.

I should add, now running full-full-full chain.

You're losing them on the TV, The drivers are almost certainly doing it right.

[tp4tissue]

I have a Sony X900F TV connected to my PC.
Madvr allows you to automatically change the resolution and refresh rate of the display depending on the movie source you play, but not the bit depth. Which is a bit of a nuisance having to manually change from 8 bit to 10 depending on the movie. I was hoping there was a way.

you need to test if 10/12bit actually works right on the TV, if it doesn't produce smoother gradients, (it could very well produce WORSE gradients) you're better off going to 8bit 444 full.

[Asmodian]

Should I set the display to being calibrated for BT.709 in MadVR settings? Or is this redundant?

I agree with VBB, yes you should. And trying to get an accurate gamma is a good idea too.

Without a colorimeter, Even in the case of SDR, it may as well use wide gamut as long as gamma tracking/grey balance is good.

This is bad advice.

That projector does not have an accurate wide gamut. Without a colorimeter you cannot get accurate colors displayed on the screen using its wide color gamut but you can using BT.709. It is pretty undersaturated for DCI-P3 so any setting in madVR that thought it was outputting to wide gamut would result in undersaturated colors. Or very oversaturated colors if madVR thinks the display is BT.709 while it is actually using a wide gamut.

Without a colorimeter, madvr just needs to know what gamut your Device is, and approximately how bright it can get.

So what should they set in madVR for the gamut of their device? I agree madVR "just needs to know what gamut your device is" but if you cannot measure it and it does not match a spec there is no way to tell madVR what the gamut is with any accuracy.

If you don't have a colorimeter use the most accurate mode your device has. That projector has a lot of curve in its DCI-P3 saturation sweeps too, I wouldn't expect you to approve. :p

[tp4tissue]

I don't approve, but if lx2 isn't buying the probe, he might as well get his money's worth on color.

The stretch from rec709 to p3 isn't very big, at worst the most saturated color areas could lose some highlight detail while making the Blind stretch. The middling colors arn't that far off you'd be within dE-4 for the lightly saturated colors. Black people might look a little too red, but white people will just look a little bit pink. It's really not a big deal.

In most cases if you let the projector do its r709 clamp, it's very likely to undersaturate. And the r709 red isn't very inspiring to look at , and it basically has no orange. You can bet in most cases where these peaks are used, the grader Would've used a more saturated red had they had it in 709.

Greyscale and whitepoint accuracy is absolute, the other stuff, ABSENT a measuring device is negotiable, because you're NOT going to get any semblance of accuracy by just clamping, that's only a best guess.

I'd wager, Letting madvr assume SDR P3 gamut with the projector set to its full color space is going to be more accurate with less color compression faults between the 2 different maps.

[Asmodian]

Black people might look a little too red, but white people will just look a little bit pink. It's really not a big deal.

Why use a mode where skin tones look a bit off when we have one where they would look correct? :(

In most cases if you let the projector do its r709 clamp, it's very likely to undersaturate.

This one seems to slightly oversaturate in its BT.709 mode:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd496/asmodian3/Sony_VPL_VW285ES_Reference_Mode_CIE_Chart_Pre_Calibration.jpg (https://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/sony-vpl-vw285es-4k-home-theater-projector-calibration-settings/#brightestmodecalibrationfor1080pandrec709%E2%80%93cinemafilm1)

The DCI-P3 mode is a bit wonky. I am not sure reds change much. It looks like it is stretching the mids in DCI-P3 rather than clamping the max in BT.709:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd496/asmodian3/Sony_VPL_VW285ES_Cinema_Film_2_Mode_CIE_Chart_Pre_Calibration.jpg (https://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/sony-vpl-vw285es-4k-home-theater-projector-calibration-settings/#brightestmodecalibrationfor1080pandrec709%E2%80%93cinemafilm1)

I'd wager, Letting madvr assume SDR P3 gamut with the projector set to its full color space is going to be more accurate with less color compression faults between the 2 different maps.

I do not believe this is true with the SONY VPL-VW285ES projector.

Edit: I would agree with your advice if we didn't have any data on the display, it is better to be over saturated instead of undersaturated and using the native gamut is preferred. However, in this case I think the BT.709 mode is the better option for madVR, at least without a colorimeter to create a 3DLUT. I also agree that a colorimeter is much preferred, though even with one I might end up keeping that projector in BT.709 mode, its primaries look closer to BT.709.

[nsnhd]

Hi, is it normal to have 50-70 dropped frames when watching whole movie? My videocard is Nvidia 1070 , potplayer, whatever settings to put in madvr and tried custorm resolution always have 50-70 droped frames. MAdvr change resolution to 2160p23 automatically when play movie.
I got a gtx 1060, in PotPlayer I'm noticing when there is a mismatch between the display/composite rates then rendering times and dropped frames increase. I have to close PotPlayer for the desktop coming back to its set refresh rate before running PotPlayer again for another frame rates without that mismatch. Not sure what causes that issue.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

I've got the hot keys mapped to my Harmony ...
Hey RXP (and anyone else using a Harmony remote), what Harmony model are you using? I think I need a remote to rule them all, but it must also be able to map keyboard keys (eg. Control+J). I'd like to get something that doesn't need an IR for the HTPC

[oldpainlesskodi]

You're losing them on the TV, The drivers are almost certainly doing it right.

Bloody cables!.....when I was testing the new setting, I bypassed my amp so it was pc to tv........turns out it was the cable from the pc to the amp.

oh the joys of owning a HTPC.

[huhn]

broken cable is incapable of doing such a thing an AMP on the other hand clearly is.

[oldpainlesskodi]

I understand why you say that....hdmi should be binary - it works or not...but, there is difference, so it's a new one on me. Replaced the cable between the pc and the amp, and black levels are now as they should be - it's not a big difference, but its noticeable on the test clips.

[ryrynz]

works or not is such an inaccurate statement when it comes to binary data over cable.. lol.

[oldpainlesskodi]

lol :p

[tp4tissue]

works or not is such an inaccurate statement when it comes to binary data over cable.. lol.

The CABLE is a LIE. :eek:

[tp4tissue]

Why use a mode where skin tones look a bit off when we have one where they would look correct? :(

This one seems to slightly oversaturate in its BT.709 mode:

The DCI-P3 mode is a bit wonky. I am not sure reds change much. It looks like it is stretching the mids in DCI-P3 rather than clamping the max in BT.709:

I do not believe this is true with the SONY VPL-VW285ES projector.

Edit: I would agree with your advice if we didn't have any data on the display, it is better to be over saturated instead of undersaturated and using the native gamut is preferred. However, in this case I think the BT.709 mode is the better option for madVR, at least without a colorimeter to create a 3DLUT. I also agree that a colorimeter is much preferred, though even with one I might end up keeping that projector in BT.709 mode, its primaries look closer to BT.709.

And without a meter, neither the 709/p3 gamut are accurate So absent that dimension, I'm saying we may as well ensure we're getting that ferrari Red and lamborghini orange.

The goal of colorimetry isn't accurate color persay, it's good LOOKING colors.

Looking at those charts, the lower saturations look pretty close on both 709 and p3.

I'm still voting for p3. it's pretty close.

I also have great doubt that Lx2's output levels are setup properly. He's very likely fallen into the trap of gamma crush which <looks perceptually> more contrasty on some setups. Kind of like people who intentionally set their HDMI levels wrong on their Oleds.