madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Damien147]

right click on your TV/AVR name -> create profile group with calibration only -> profile 1 "duplicate profile" -> name one SDR one HDR -> click on "Profile Group 1" - add in profile auto select rules:

if (HDR = true) "HDR"
else "SDR"

load the SDR 3D LUT in SDR and the 2.2 in HDR.

Thanks for helping me out.Can it be done without using profiles?
In the calibration tab one bt.709 3dlut with bt.1886 for SDR and one bt.2020 3dlut with 2.2 gamma for pixel shaders.Will it be correct like that?



BTW. why bt 1886?

From reading around in the past bt.1886 was the suggested if you are watching during the night.I like what I see.

[huhn]

yes but the tone mapping is not doing the conversation in this case. but if you want that sure.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Try a different key combination. Windows reserves Ctrl+C for the "copy" part of cut, copy, paste operations. You can't override that.

@huhn or @jkauff Ok tried a different key combination (Ctrl+T) and I can toggle now, but it only switches between two profiles and not others. What else should I put in the "profile auto select rules". Here is what I have currently to automatically use Soulnight's Mirror by default for 4K material:

if (srcWidth > 1921) "Soulnight's Mirror"

[huhn]

i don't know how many profiles you have wand here they differ and when you want to sue them.

[Asmodian]

Ok tried a different key combination (Ctrl+T) and I can toggle now, but it only switches between two profiles and not others. What else should I put in the "profile auto select rules".

You have to get the logic correct. If you want it to use a specific profile you need the logic to evaluate as false for all of the if statements before the one you want to activate.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

You have to get the logic correct. If you want it to use a specific profile you need the logic to evaluate as false for all of the if statements before the one you want to activate.

What I'm trying to do is use Soulnight's Mirror by default but have the ability to toggle through a few other options I've created using Ctrl-T (instead of having to assign a separate shortcut for each one):

Soulnight's Mirror (Default)
Manni's L80
Log Conservative (Neo-XP)
Disabled

[Asmodian]

Just place it as the top profile and don't have any rules setup.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Just place it as the top profile and don't have any rules setup.

Tried that, doesn't toggle through them.

[Asmodian]

It does when I do it? I set the profile shortcut to Ctrl+Alt+F and it cycles though all the available profiles, and auto.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd496/asmodian3/Profile_Shortcut_Key.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

[mrbinky]

I am building a zen 3 system, and planning on getting either a Radeon RX 6800 XT or a Nvidia RTX 3080.

Will Madvr gain any performance benefit from direct memory in the Radeon GPU, or should I just stick with Nvidia (I've read here that Nvidia is better for Madvr, all else being equal?)

[ryrynz]

There would be a benefit, how much remains to be seen. We'll be awaiting results from the kind person who tests and reports on it.

[huhn]

in the past memory was "never" interesting for madVR.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

It does when I do it? I set the profile shortcut to Ctrl+Alt+F and it cycles though all the available profiles, and auto.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd496/asmodian3/Profile_Shortcut_Key.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

I'm using KODI 17.7 DSPlayer on my HTPC in the theater and can't get this to work unfortunately. Are you using MPC-HC / BE?

[Asmodian]

I am actually using Zoom Player.

The best player. ;)

[tp4tissue]

Does NE1 know if Madvr's Dithering works a the subpixel lvl to require RGB pixel layout. :scared:

[tp4tissue]

Will Madvr gain any performance benefit from direct memory in the Radeon GPU, or should I just stick with Nvidia (I've read here that Nvidia is better for Madvr, all else being equal?)

That's the wrong question, the right question is will Madshi SUPPORT the latest cards.

He is the maker.

The element of our salvation.

[tp4tissue]

So basically with AMD cards using Madvr tone mapping, I will always see with BT.709 color space, despite having loaded a 3dlut in SDR DCI-P3 is that you saying?

The color space of the TV can operate independently of Madvr.

If you set your TV to native, it will use its full gamut. Madvr can then accept a map of that from the colorimeter and adjust accordingly.

OR , Madvr can send the color's native values in 10bit limited range, and you'd rely on your TV to be in-tune.

The problem is, UNLESS your TV has a custom 3dlut feature, It's ALSO BLIND to its own output. You would need to use either a Lut-box, OR pay for the Calman license if your TV supports their tools.


The Cheapest way to get the colors tuned is to use madvr's 3dlut function for the whole pipe.

[Asmodian]

It does not. I am not sure how colored noise interacts with subpixel structure but even then madVR is not trying to preserve sharpness or something using subpixel rendering.

You can also easily check by setting the output bitdepth to 1 or 2.

[tp4tissue]

AMD 444 FULL RGB - MADVR 0-255 - LG OLED HIGH - gives corrects results
AMD 444 FULL RGB - MADVR 0-255 - LG OLED LOW - gives crushed results

AMD 444 FULL RGB - MADVR 16-235 - LG OLED HIGH - gives correct results
AMD 444 FULL RGB - MADVR 16-235 - LG OLED LOW - gives crushed results

can anyone make sense of this?

@ Mclingo, buy a colorimeter. You won't have to ask us, you'll know, because you can measure it.

Especially with Oled, eyeballing these things is hard unless you already own a colorimeter and know exactly what to look for.

Using those gamma charts is unreliable, because alot of settings can get in the way unless you have a measurement tool.

[tp4tissue]

It does not. I am not sure how colored noise interacts with subpixel structure but even then madVR is not trying to preserve sharpness or something using subpixel rendering.

You can also easily check by setting the output bitdepth to 1 or 2.

Nice, kewl, thx Asmodian. :D

[tp4tissue]

In PC mode my CX seems to round >8 bit to 8 bit internally (or something). I see much worse banding using 10 bit from madVR compared to 8 bit.

I agree YCbCr 444 limited is ideal for LG's OLEDs. I see worse near black banding when using full range RGB compared to limited range 444. It might just be the extra dithering but I think the display simply does better with limited range input.


Does that happen even after adjusting LG's new near black Gamma correction values ?

[Asmodian]

What are these new near black Gamma correction values?

They aren't going to change 10 bit v.s. 8 bit at all but it would be excellent to get better performance with full range RGB. I used Calman Video Pro to calibrate the TV so most of the calibration options in the UI are disabled but I do not see any new gamma correction options.

[tp4tissue]

What are these new near black Gamma correction values?

They aren't going to change 10 bit v.s. 8 bit at all but it would be excellent to get better performance with full range RGB. I used Calman Video Pro to calibrate the TV so most of the calibration options in the UI are disabled but I do not see any new gamma correction options.

I think with the Calman it's automatic, but i remember in the circular, they said they were the first to introduce 1-3% gamma controls, sumtin,sumtin.

[Asmodian]

Ah, yes, there is a mode specifically for these TVs in Calman that uses a lot of near black steps. My i1d3 has trouble measuring the lowest step sometimes, even with near black read times turned way up.

[Greenhorn]

Anybody know if there's a severe disadvantage to adjusting gamma in madVR (with the Gamma Processing dropdown) vs creating separate 3DLUTs for multiple targets? I like to switch between targets based on content or viewing conditions sometimes, and the dropdown is just a lot less fussy ...

[Asmodian]

No, that is a good use case for the gamma processing drop down.

[Greenhorn]

No, that is a good use case for the gamma processing drop down.

Thanks.

[huhn]

make sure the loaded 3D LUT is 2.2 in this case so you will get the gamma you select not "something".
but this should be as accurate as creating a new 3D LUT with the same gamma.

ignore bt 709/601 in there that seems to be a sRGB transfer function. if someone know what it really does feel free to tell us.

[Greenhorn]

make sure the loaded 3D LUT is 2.2 in this case so you will get the gamma you select not "something".
but this should be as accurate as creating a new 3D LUT with the same gamma.

ignore bt 709/601 in there that seems to be a sRGB transfer function. if someone know what it really does feel free to tell us.

I have.

I'd be wary of making any hard statements about what madVR is doing, but-- while there's no actual BT.709/601 electro-optical transfer function (gamma), the inverse of their optical-electrical transfer function is apparently quite similar to the sRGB EOTF/gamma. (You can even calibrate to this hypothetical curve in DisplayCAL if you really really really want to check this.)

So that option resembling sRGB makes visual sense, even if exactly what's being done under the hood is unclear.

[el Filou]

That's the wrong question, the right question is will Madshi SUPPORT the latest cards.I guess if Smart Access Memory will provide any performance enhancement depends on whether you're using software/copyback or native decoding, as decoded frames is the only thing that uses a lot of bandwidth between CPU and GPU in madVR. It's not clear how much devs need to add manual optimisations, AMD said you should get some benefits automatically. But if this needs manual optimisations to get the most out of it, maybe LAV is where the changes are needed and not madVR itself.

[huhn]

i don't except much from smart access video player.

currently you can address close to 256 mb at a time that's bigger then a 8K 16 bit image and i just assume it's fine to send each frame individual because if you have one ready send it i guess?

does this mean it will not add anything obviously not they are assumes.

[flaviowolff]

Guys, I would appreciate very much if someone could answer these questions regarding HDR reproduction, as this is a very big thread:

When using madVR's tonemapping (pixel shader), what is recommended to adjust on the TV side? Should I set it to full brightness - backlight full, contrast 100 etc - and gamma 2.2 (which I believe "hdr mode" fixes to on LG OLEDs) Also, should I change the TV's color gamut to extended/wide etc, or Auto is enough for it to correctly display colors when using madvr's hdr-to-sdr tonemapping?

Thanks!

[VBB]

You can use the tone mapping, but you should enable HDR in madVR and set nits to 700. Leave everything as it is on the TV (100, 100, 50, AUTO). Make sure Dynamic Contrast/Tone-mapping (whatever it's called on newer models) is off.

[flaviowolff]

You can use the tone mapping, but you should enable HDR in madVR and set nits to 700. Leave everything as it is on the TV (100, 100, 50, AUTO). Make sure Dynamic Contrast/Tone-mapping (whatever it's called on newer models) is off.

Thanks. I'll do that for the LG.
But I also have a Sony X900F. How would you suggest me to set it if not passing HDR signal trough?

My PC is kind of bugging and hdr signal passthough is a lottery. sometimes it will just dull the entire picture.

[VBB]

I would do the same for the Sony, which can get a little brighter than the OLED. So, maybe set nits at 800 or higher. HDR to SDR tone-mapping is really meant for projectors.

If your HDR picture is dull, that could be due to the current Nvidia drivers. Once you go full screen without any OSD/GUI, it should be fine.

[flaviowolff]

I would do the same for the Sony, which can get a little brighter than the OLED. So, maybe set nits at 800 or higher. HDR to SDR tone-mapping is really meant for projectors.

If your HDR picture is dull, that could be due to the current Nvidia drivers. Once you go full screen without any OSD/GUI, it should be fine.

Good to know. My GPU is amd (5700xt). I'll try to figure out what the issue is, maybe install some old drivers.

So, when using madvr with televisions, we should still send the hdr metadata to put the tv in the appropriate brightness/gamma/color gamut mode? And since we are limiting the nits, the TV wont apply significant double-tonemapping?

Thanks once again

[VBB]

That's the point, yes. You want to make the best use of your HDR-capable display.

[Anime Viewer]

Recently an Intel update ran that I think is responsible for breaking the Optimus (Nvidia+Intel selection for which video card to use with which program) in Windows 10. I can't launch Nvidia Control Panel (its missing from the right click selection on the desktop), and clicking on it in Windows Control Panel does nothing. Has anyone else with an Optimus system encountered this issue? If so, did you find a solution and what is it (are there particular driver versions for both Intel and Nvidia that are recommended?). Anyone find a different way to control which GPU is used to run specific programs. I wouldn't mind primarily using the Nvidia for most tasks, but I suspect some things are tied directly to the Intel GPU (like the HDMI) so not everything could be run through the Nvidia GPU if there was even a way to do so. I'm hoping there is still a way to get MPC and MadVR to play my videos using my Nvidia Geforce GTX 680M instead of the much weaker Intel HD graphics 4000 that can't handle mid to high level scaling, rendering, and processing settings that the Nvidia does.

[jkauff]

If you do a search in this thread, you'll find lots of posts about Optimus (mostly problems).

The Nvidia Control Panel is now a free download in the Microsoft Store. Try installing that way.

[chros]

When using madVR's tonemapping (pixel shader), what is recommended to adjust on the TV side? Should I set it to full brightness - backlight full, contrast 100 etc - and gamma 2.2 (which I believe "hdr mode" fixes to on LG OLEDs)?

...you should enable HDR in madVR and set nits to 700...

^This. If you have HDR capable display then you don't want to feed it with SDR content at all :)
On the B8 DV is even better (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1927703#post1927703) than HDR10.

So, when using madvr with televisions, we should still send the hdr metadata to put the tv in the appropriate brightness/gamma/color gamut mode? And since we are limiting the nits, the TV wont apply significant double-tonemapping?
Most of the TVs would still do additional tonemapping, you can't switch that off on most of them. But that's not an issue (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/page-179#post-58739264).
Normally you have to measure what nits your TV is capable of (B8 is around 700), or take values from rtings (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x900f).
The issue is that LG needs proper metadata sent, that certain driver versions can screw up (even with nvidia).
LG needs BT.2020 with HDR10, DV is a complete black box :)

You can take a look the the link in my signature for madvr config.

[chros]

Recently an Intel update ran that I think is responsible for breaking the Optimus (Nvidia+Intel selection for which video card to use with which program) in Windows 10.
...
I'm hoping there is still a way to get MPC and MadVR to play my videos using my Nvidia Geforce GTX 680M instead of the much weaker Intel HD graphics 4000...
I have a similar old MSI rig (intel HD4000 + nvidia 650m) around with a dying Win8.1, so I thougth I'll put Win10 (1607 or preferably 1809) on it, but I was hesitant about driver issues.
Can you specify the following?
- which Win10 version do you use
- can you name or link the good driver versions for all the hardware components?

Thanks

[el Filou]

HDR to SDR tone-mapping is really meant for projectors.It was designed and optimised for projectors, but really it works quite well on any SDR display (especially ones that can go higher than 100 nits without losing contrast), and the resulting picture is better than a 1080 Blu-ray.

[flaviowolff]

It was designed and optimised for projectors, but really it works quite well on any SDR display (especially ones that can go higher than 100 nits without losing contrast), and the resulting picture is better than a 1080 Blu-ray.

Just curious.. what would make it better than straight sdr? Making use of more nits for contrast and a bit of extra color gamut coverage (like some pc monitors)? This usage is very interesting.. kind of a middle ground between sdr and true hdr

[chros]

Well, you can't do much about it: e. g. ABL kicks in with Oled around 140 nits (with full white, depending on the model), plasmas were even worse in this.
So 140 vs e.g 700 is a huge difference. I haven't seen any HDR version of a given video that was worse then the SDR version.
On an SDR display it can result in sharper image but at that time it's better to buy an HDR capable TV than fool around with SDR convertion. :)

And since we are here, I don't understand projector users today, there is only 1 advantage and that is size (altough a 77 inch TV is quite big) but they have multiple disadvantages compared to e.g. an Oled.

[flaviowolff]

Well, you can't do much about it: e. g. ABL kicks in with Oled around 140 nits (with full white, depending on the model), plasmas were even worse in this.
So 140 vs e.g 700 is a huge difference. I haven't seen any HDR version of a given video that was worse then the SDR version.
On an SDR display it can result in sharper image but at that time it's better to buy an HDR capable TV than fool around with SDR convertion. :)

And since we are here, I don't understand projector users today, there is only 1 advantage and that is size (altough a 77 inch TV is quite big) but they have multiple disadvantages compared to e.g. an Oled.

Me neither.. maybe they are better at motion handling?
The cool factor is really there, tho.

[webbo]

Basically, the scenario described here (http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=553) happens to me, when playing back any 4K HDR file, the video plays back until it freezes / whole PC is frozen, not even CTRL-ALT-DEL work, only a hard-reset does the job

MadVR is set to tonemap using pixel shaders


Player used : PotPlayer
Also tried MPC-HC - same

Driver used for GPU : latest NVIDIA 457.09
Used DDU to uninstall (in safe mode) - did nothing to help

My actual madVR configured is set to high-software decoding ("none HW decoders selected)
Attached some screenshots for convenience.

Everything worked perfectly until a few days ago, when this suddenly happened. I think it coincided with upgrading to 457.09
I've reverted back to 442.74 but it happens all the same.

Any suggestions / courses of action on how to solve, this, please?
It's especially annoying

Extra info : Thought it's related to nVidia Drivers - also opened a similar query on this thread (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013&page=106)
But seems to appears to have to do with madVR, I've found it more reasonsable to ask here as well.

I've tested same 4K HDR files on VLC and nothing freezes there.
I would assume using a different renderer than madVR on PotPlayer would offer the same result, but i'm sworn on madVR, there is no alternative, we all know that.

Later Edit :

Tested also LAV Video Decoder with D3D11 and getting same result both on passthrough as well as HDR by pixel shaders - crashes / freezes



Thank you for your time & hopefully someone can help out with this :confused:

[el Filou]

Just curious.. what would make it better than straight sdr?If your SDR display is capable of higher peak brightness than 100 nits without losing contrast (meaning local-dimming LCDs, or self-emissive displays), then you can get a bigger dynamic range than with the SDR version of the same content.
Of course with plasmas and OLED there's ABL, but you still get a bit better range than with 100 nits max.
If your display has wider gamut than Bt.709 you can get better colours too but I think the dynamic range is more interesting.
Now of course I don't mean this is a serious alternative to buying a HDR display, but if you still have a high quality SDR display and don't want to/can't change yet, it's useful.And since we are here, I don't understand projector users today, there is only 1 advantage and that is size (altough a 77 inch TV is quite big) but they have multiple disadvantages compared to e.g. an Oled.I think it's mostly size, you can get even bigger than 77 inch, but also maybe for practical reasons: if you don't have a lot of space or a dedicated room, you can install a motorized screen and have a massive size projection for movies without using that wall space all the time for a massive TV.

[flaviowolff]

If your SDR display is capable of higher peak brightness than 100 nits without losing contrast (meaning local-dimming LCDs, or self-emissive displays), then you can get a bigger dynamic range than with the SDR version of the same content.

My AOC 24G2 pc monitor specs report 250 nits.. reviewers measured about 300. But it doesn't fit your description, as it's not local dimming. In this case, is it better with standard sdr content?

I know I can just test it and see what I like the most, but I like hearing opinions from the more experienced folks.

Thanks

[Asmodian]

The problem with simply turning up the brightness all the way on a standard IPS LCD is that the black level will increase at the same time. This keeps the dynamic range the same, or even worse, so it ends up not looking any better than an SDR image with the peak white set to 100-160 nits. The conversion will end up losing shadow detail in a gray mush as it preserves a little more highlight detail.

The extra brightness does not increase the dynamic range so it is better to use brightness to adjust for ambient light rather then getting more brightness for "HDR".

[huhn]

that's how flat screens work in general zone don't really fix this.