madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[imhh11]

Hi all,

I just upgraded my GTX 1070 to the new RTX 3070. I've been using madVR for many years without any issue (SDR or HDR). My htpc is an i7 7700K, 16 gb ram, nvme drive for windows 10 up to date, latest Nvidia drivers, MPC-BE 64bits. My TV is an LG OLED C8.

I'm having this very strange issue with SDR content only. The motion is not good at all, it feels like I'm dropping frames but madVR OSD does not report any dropped frames( nor repeated frames).
What is strange is that in HDR10 passthrough, the playback is perfectly smooth. it only happens with sdr content, how's that possible ? Playback is also perfectly fluid using EVR mpc or VLC.
Anyone have an idea why? everything worked fine on my gtx1070.

I tried:
-reinstalling driver many times
- tried reinstalling madvr
-tried different version of madvr
-older driver ( there is only 2 drivers yet)
-mpc-hc = same issue
-gpu usage does not go over 50%
-happens with 2160p sdr content as well (no upscaling)
- i think its worse with NGU but i still notice it with jinc and spline.
- again, HDR passthrough, no issue at all...

osd of files playing:
* hdr passthrough give black screenshot but the osd is accurate
https://extraimage.com/images/2020/11/22/1080p-HDR.th.png (https://extraimage.com/image/LaxT7H) https://extraimage.com/images/2020/11/22/1080p-SDR.th.png (https://extraimage.com/image/LaxV3r) https://extraimage.com/images/2020/11/22/2160p-HDR.th.png (https://extraimage.com/image/LaxodD) https://extraimage.com/images/2020/11/22/2160p-SDR.th.png (https://extraimage.com/image/LaxaMp)



settings:

https://extraimage.com/images/2020/11/22/general-settings.th.png (https://extraimage.com/image/Lax95t) https://extraimage.com/images/2020/11/22/image-upscaling.th.png (https://extraimage.com/image/LaxmTo) https://extraimage.com/images/2020/11/22/lav.th.png (https://extraimage.com/image/LaxyH5) https://extraimage.com/images/2020/11/22/trade.th.png (https://extraimage.com/image/LaxS4s) https://extraimage.com/images/2020/11/22/tv-properties.th.png (https://extraimage.com/image/Lax4xw) https://extraimage.com/images/2020/11/22/chroma-upscaling.th.png (https://extraimage.com/image/LaxAB1) https://extraimage.com/images/2020/11/22/dithering.th.png (https://extraimage.com/image/LaxOE8)

thanks for any help.

[LordX2]

Set your display to 8 bit, under devices->[display]->properties

madVR's dithering is very good, even ordered dithering which is very fast outputs great quality 8 bit video from HDR10 content. The high bit depth is important for the compressed source video (the compression does not preserve dithering) but not for the full bandwidth output of madVR.

I do prefer both the "use colored noise" and "change dither for every frame" disabled. I especially do not like "use colored noise". :o

Thank for the explanation once again.

So if I am using the 12bit setting on the Nvidia output, and the full windowed D3D11 shows 10 bit - that would mean that I am NOT using dithering correct? Just straight up 10bit output?

I have seen through random web searches that people say 10bit can show more banding than 8bit w/ dithering. Is that correct? Or source dependent?

I am using my reference movie LUCY to see the differences that I select. So, with 12bit RBG, the movie shows 10bit D3D11 in full screen (which has proper blacks now, dont ask - I have no idea what I clicked!)... but when I go down to the movie timer scroll bar, and hover the mouse there, CTRL+J shows that the movie changes to 8bit windowed. I notice no difference between the switch.

That being said, should I stick with the 12bit setting? Thereby getting true 10bit fullscreen windowed?

Is there a good 4K HDR Banding TEST video I could use to see the difference between the modes?

[tp4tissue]

In order to take advantage of the 12bit setting, your display must actually support 10bit input and have an appropriate frc engine to deal with it.

Alot of displays just fake it even though they list it on the box. They'll write 10bit on the box, but then the display itself just discards the data and doesn't dither.


To test it, Set 10 or 12bit in Nvidia panel, set 10bit in Madvr , set a hotkey in madvr to Toggle madvr's dithering.

Play this test pattern. it must be full screen, mouse cursor not ontop of menu, and the surface must say D3D11 fullscreen windowed (10bit), Then toggle the dithering button on and off. With dithering Disabled, The top gradient should be much smoother than the bottom gradient. With dithering Enabled, The top gradient should change yet again, and become EVEN MORE smooth. If the top gradient looks very similar with big blotches like the bottom gradient in both cases, either the screen is not 10-bit, or is just crappy.

With the cursor on the bottom seekbar/buttons poped up, the application will switch to the 8bit mode. In this mode, with the dithering Disabled, the top gradient should look almost like the bottom gradient, blocky. With it enabled, the top should be smooth/smoother.

It's also possible that the display has 10bit processing, but this aspect is disabled in 444 chroma modes/ PC modes. You can run the test in different modes, but you must also disable the smooth gradient filter on the tv, otherwise that could fool you.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B68jIlCvW85gWFp0NVUwTFdTNFE/view


The Gradient performance is a combination of many factors, and it may be difficult to tease out what's not right, but this should get you started.

[VBB]

The video driver also dithers. I don't know about AMD, but Nvidia dithers everything except RGB full.

[tp4tissue]

I assumed we're testing rgb full. yes.

[LordX2]

I assumed we're testing rgb full. yes.

Yes, Nvidia is RGB Full 12bit - MadVr is Limited - PJ (display) is limited.

How can I set the key to toggle dithering?

And it is a projector - Sony VPL-VW285es

[tp4tissue]

in madvr setting, there's a hotkey menu.

Set the projector to 444 full rgb if possible. you may need to go to 23 or 24 or 30hz.

[tp4tissue]

It is important to separate the concepts of HDR v.s. SDR from DCI-P3 v.s. BT.2020 v.s. BT.709 color gamuts. These are two independent concepts, though they are correlated in most consumer content. You can have SDR DCI-P3 or BT.2020 content and BT.709 HDR content.



@ Asmodian, do you know how madvr works with the primaries during its Tonemapping ?

Does it apply a transfer function to retarget ?

For example, the container is rec2020, the primary reported by the video is rec2020, does madvr do gamut compression by bending the axis, OR does it just send out the vanilla values along an assumed straight line towards the primaries.


The thing that confuses me is that IF it doesn't bend the axis, then it MUST require a rec2020 lut no ? without which it would send colors towards the rec709 primaries or p3 primaries of the display device, and that'd just be wrong. red and blue might look pretty close, but the green and magenta would be pretty off.

[LordX2]

in madvr setting, there's a hotkey menu.

Set the projector to 444 full rgb if possible. you may need to go to 23 or 24 or 30hz.

The projector doesn't look right if it is set to FULL mode. Went through that rabbit hole a month ago with the guys here, and we landed at the optimal settings being: PC FULL, MadVR Limited, PJ Limited.

So I would like to do any testing with the settings I will be using on a daily basis.

Also, my system normally boots to 23.976 fps, and MadVR changes that refresh as needed.

[tp4tissue]

do you have a colorimeter

question 2, can you buy one ?

[LordX2]

do you have a colorimeter

question 2, can you buy one ?

No. And I wouldn't know what to do with it if I bought it. :)

PS - Congrats on that overclock on such an old cpu!

[tp4tissue]

No. And I wouldn't know what to do with it if I bought it. :)

PS - Congrats on that overclock on such an old cpu!

when you set the whole pipe to rgb full, does the shadow look crushed black or too bright grey.

[LordX2]

when you set the whole pipe to rgb full, does the shadow look crushed black or too bright grey.

Its too bright/grey - like its 'washed out'.

[LordX2]

Found a video to use for the banding/dithering test. It has some motion to it, so it made it really easy to detect changes for me.

http://aaa-computerrepair.com/zip/10bit_HDR_Grayscale_ProjectorCentral_4K_(HEVC_10-bit).mp4

Using (and not using) the menu bar at the bottom, I was able to test all four states. 8bit with and without dithering, and 10bit with and without dithering. There were changes between each state, and they went in (what I would consider) the logical order.

8bit without dithering was the worst, very noticeable banding.

8bit with dithering fixed the banding a lot, but still noticeable areas.

10bit without dithering was a little better than 8bit with dithering.

10bit with dithering was the smoothest of all.

This would seem to indicate to me that 10bit is being taken advantage of on my setup, and that dithering is working with 10bit video.

Is this the right conclusion to draw with the above scenario?

[Asmodian]

This would seem to indicate to me that 10bit is being taken advantage of on my setup, and that dithering is working with 10bit video.

Is this the right conclusion to draw with the above scenario?

Yes, that does sound like the correct conclusion.

However, your results for 8 bit dithering and 10 bit with dithering should be basically the same. 8 bit with dithering shouldn't have more banding than 10 bit with dithering. Do you have the trade quality for performance option "don't use linear light for dithering" enabled? If yes try with it off.

Testing using that test file (a great file for HDR bit depth testing!) on my display I get the smoothest results using 8 bit with dithering. I think this OLED rounds anything above 8 bit to 8 bit when in PC mode. :p

Edit: If 10 bit looks the same or better use 10 bit, it is only when 10 bit is worse that you do not want to use it. The only reason I suggested using 8 bit was because you had worse black clipping with 10 bit but if it makes banding worse keep 10 bit.
Edit2: After doing more testing I am not sure what my TV is doing, it is not rounding to 8 bit. 10 bit has slightly worse banding than 8 bit but un-dithered 8 bit or 10 bit is much worse. It is irrelevant for you anyway.

[Asmodian]

Does it apply a transfer function to retarget ?

Yes, it uses a function to retarget if it does not have a native LUT for that target.

For example, the container is rec2020, the primary reported by the video is rec2020, does madvr do gamut compression by bending the axis, OR does it just send out the vanilla values along an assumed straight line towards the primaries.

It does do primary correction. When mapping to a larger gamut you get the linear saturation ramps from the source gamut, not the display's. No bending or rotation either.

I am not sure if madVR's simple math option clips or not. Depending on how it is done there can be some bending going on at the extremes when mapping to a smaller gamut, to avoid simple hard clipping. I expect the new HDR tone mapping does not do a simple hard clip while the SDR conversions are more likely to.

The thing that confuses me is that IF it doesn't bend the axis, then it MUST require a rec2020 lut no ? without which it would send colors towards the rec709 primaries or p3 primaries of the display device, and that'd just be wrong. red and blue might look pretty close, but the green and magenta would be pretty off.

Within the overlapping color ranges you can get a 1:1 color match with relatively simple equations. There are different methods for mapping the non-overlapping areas, but they can all be represented by equations too.

This does work really well in my experiance, assuming the display is calibrated. For BT.2020 -> DCI-P3 or BT.2020/DCI-P3 -> BT.709 it seems to work perfectly. Using pure math to map BT.709 to a almost DCI-P3 display usually comes out a bit desaturated, which isn't great since BT.709 is already a lot smaller than the native gamut. The issue is that most displays don't quite hit the DCI-P3 primaries, not that the math is wrong.

[bombadilio]

I would like to run 2 instances of madVR (2 seperate video players) if thats possible.

My use would be/

1st player MPC BE +madVR+SVP (higher MadVR settings)
2nd player (insert name here) + madVR + Dmitrirender (lower MadVR settings)

I wanted to test my videos with higher and lower madVR settings (separately attached to specific player), as SVP is less hardware demanding in comparison to Dmitrirender.

I did test JRiver creates seperate madVR instance-(good as settings are different), but cant add custom DirectShow filter (DmitriRender). On the other hand Potplayer accepts custom DirectShow filters but cant add seperate madVR instance as it gets the same settings as the MPC BE.

Thank you for help thanks:
Did you ever get this to work?

I just switched to MPC-BE64bit + Madvr + AviSynth + SVP.

I oddly cannot tell if my SVP profiles are loading. Is there a way I could verify this? When I use MPC-BE now SVP does not say anything is active. Spent the last 12 hrs trying to figure it out and could use help please :)

[Manni]

Found a video to use for the banding/dithering test. It has some motion to it, so it made it really easy to detect changes for me.


Link to the original article and source (your link triggers a "dangerous website" alert): https://www.projectorcentral.com/All-About-Bit-Depth.htm

[huhn]

Y to RGB limited is lossless but this image still produces a ton of banding when doing that without dithering (using passthrough obviously).

something is not working correctly with it.

it's a good idea sadly it's HDR and the bitrate is very questionable.

[el Filou]

The upscaling settings are not used in your config, try Bicubic60 to downscale, I doubt that you can tell the difference.In that situation I would first try to lower the chroma upscaling quality to see if I can keep SSIM.Try enabling the trade quality for performance option "scale chroma separately, if it saves performance". In the right situation it can save a lot of performance, arguably without a quality hit (the output is slightly different but not necessarily lower quality).This works only when chroma res = output def so for 4K->1080 OK, but not 1440 unfortunately.

[Alexkral]

In that situation I would first try to lower the chroma upscaling quality to see if I can keep SSIM

I'm a big fan of catrom (actually 60 is closer to the sweet spot to maximize sharpness without introducing ringing), in the past I did some comparisons with SSIM and the results were very image dependent. That's why I think that in this situation the most important thing is the chroma upscaling quality. Anyway, it's a matter of taste.

[Asmodian]

This works only when chroma res = output def so for 4K->1080 OK, but not 1440 unfortunately.

There are situations where it can scale chroma to 1440 while scaling 4K luma to 1440. Probably doesn't work with SSIM though. :o

[huhn]

works for 2160 to 1440p too. you just have to make sure the chroma scaler isn't a x2 algorithm even with SSIM. it will use the x2 algorithm if the target resolution is above ~1420p this is odd could be a bug but without performance measuring hard to tell.
if there is a luma < in the OSD it is working.

[tp4tissue]

This would seem to indicate to me that 10bit is being taken advantage of on my setup, and that dithering is working with 10bit video.

Is this the right conclusion to draw with the above scenario?


Congratulations, your projector does not suck. :D

as for the shadow bloat, does the base black become elevated when set to full rgb, or does the low-mid black elevate only.

So for example, if you just had a 0,0,0 background, is THAT also elevated on RGB full on the proj. If base black isn't elevated, it might just be the case that rgb full is causing the projector to emulate SRGB gamma, which has a brighter rampup near black.

[tp4tissue]

For BT.2020 -> DCI-P3 or BT.2020/DCI-P3 -> BT.709 it seems to work perfectly. Using pure math to map BT.709 to a almost DCI-P3 display usually comes out a bit desaturated, which isn't great since BT.709 is already a lot smaller than the native gamut. The issue is that most displays don't quite hit the DCI-P3 primaries, not that the math is wrong.

Thx for the deets Asmodian.

Do you know if Madvr turns off its math-bending when using a rec2020 lut ,

For example, on the osd, if it says rec2020->dcip3 does that mean it's mathing ?

Because it says that regardless if i use a rec2020 lut or a p3 lut.

Is there another indicator to check what it's doing gamut wise.

[LordX2]

If 10 bit looks the same or better use 10 bit, it is only when 10 bit is worse that you do not want to use it. The only reason I suggested using 8 bit was because you had worse black clipping with 10 bit but if it makes banding worse keep 10 bit.


1. Ok, so I tested 8bit vs 10bit with dithering enabled - they were both smooth, but the 10 bit was definitely smoother... went back and forth muuuuultiple times to make sure. So that is good! Obviously my PJ is processing 10bit. (also, the black levels are working fine now with my current settings over 10bit... don't know what I changed, but not complaining)

So I wanted to know WHY I had all the problems I did, and I had some posts answered on the PJ page on a different forum.

2. My PJ is limited to 13.5Gbps over its HDMI ports (vs 18Gbps). Stupid design, and one that has been bashed repeatedly (and of course fixed on the next release!).

3. All RGB content (or 444 full) is processed at 8bit on the PJ - which explains why having FULL settings through the chain (video card, madvr, and PJ) never worked right. The PJ was downgrading the 10bit signal to 8bit, and gave it that washed out look. So at least I know WHY that was happening now.

4. However, the PJ CAN process 10bit limited (4:2:0) signals up to 30Hz.

5. Even though my Nvidia is set to RGB FULL, Having MadVR set to Limited must be putting out the 10bit 4:2:0 video stream directly to the PJ in Fullscreen windowed mode - which would explain why the 10bit is being processed correctly by the PJ.

So I think I finally have a handle on why and what is actually happening. I think...

6. Final question though - from the conversation previously about color spaces and gamut etc - since my PJ is getting the full 10bit signal (madvr is doing the tone mapping), regardless of whether it is reporting bt.709 color space, and that my windows system is in SDR - am I theoretically getting all the colors that I possibly can to my PJ?

The picture looks astounding, so I don't care either way - just curious.

[tp4tissue]

what's the projector model again?

[Asmodian]

For example, on the osd, if it says rec2020->dcip3 does that mean it's mathing ?

Isn't that info about the source? I believe that is telling you that the metadata indicates it is DCI-P3 range video encoded as BT.2020. In that case it simply clips everything outside DCI-P3 when using DCI-P3 output, or does nothing to it for BT.2020 output.


4. However, the PJ CAN process 10bit limited (4:2:0) signals up to 30Hz.

10 bit is usually not worth using 4:2:0, at least on displays I have tested (not projectors). Converting to 4:2:0 after madVR is bad. Do you know what 4:2:0 means? Limited range and 4:2:0 are completely independent things.

4:2:0 loses a lot of spatial resolution for the color detail. Dithering to 8 bit preserves a lot more precision than simply resizing all the color data to 1/4 the number of pixels. :p

Can you set the GPU to output 8 bit YCbCr 444?

5. Even though my Nvidia is set to RGB FULL, Having MadVR set to Limited must be putting out the 10bit 4:2:0 video stream directly to the PJ in Fullscreen windowed mode - which would explain why the 10bit is being processed correctly by the PJ.

No, madVR cannot do that.. When madVR outputs limited range it is outputting limited range RGB. The GPU must not be set to output full range 10 bit RGB, since the projector cannot accept that. Limited and full range video takes the same amount of HDMI bandwidth. What is the GPU outputting?

So I think I finally have a handle on why and what is actually happening. I think...

Your described config doesn't seem possible given the bandwidth limitations of your projector.

6. Final question though - from the conversation previously about color spaces and gamut etc - since my PJ is getting the full 10bit signal (madvr is doing the tone mapping), regardless of whether it is reporting bt.709 color space, and that my windows system is in SDR - am I theoretically getting all the colors that I possibly can to my PJ?

Let's see if I can help make sense of this for you. :o

The bit depth does not control what colors are available. It simply doesn't so don't think of it that way. You get the same color with 8 or 10 bit. Higher bit depth makes getting smooth gradients easier but it does not change the colors displayed.

The gamut is what controls the colors able to be displayed. With the display set to BT.709 it cannot display any colors outside BT.709. DCI-P3 is larger than BT.709 so there might be colors in DCI-P3 content your projector cannot display when set to BT.709. Most content doesn't use many colors near 100% saturation so with a good conversion almost all the colors will be the same as they would be if the display was set to DCI-P3 with video tone mapped to DCI-P3. It is only colors outside the gamut of the projector that will change.

The picture looks astounding, so I don't care either way - just curious.

I have thought this about a completely wrong image before. Don't stop yet. ;)

I suspect you can figure out something even better with your current system. :)

[LordX2]

I also FORCED the PJ into Limited mode. Forgot to mention that.

I wonder if that is what is helping me here - since I noticed a gigantic improvement when I first made that switch on the projector.

Perhaps the PJ can process RGB in limited mode at 30hz or lower with 10bit.

I mean something is happening with 10bit since I am noticing a difference on the test video. If it were all 8bit, it would (should) look the same either way I tested it.

Since I love the picture now - I may just leave it alone.

But would it be worth it to try and set the PJ from BT.709 to DCI-P3 if it will let me? And see if that makes any difference?

Projector model is: VPL-VW285es - Sony

[tp4tissue]

it makes no sense that you'd Not buy a colorimeter on a $5000 projector.

Buy the colorimeter, then we'll know exactly what's going on. Get the i1studio it's only $150. Don't buy a datacolor probe, they're busted.

I also find it difficult to grasp that such a projector can't do RGB Full. It's probably doing it correctly. it's just the gamma tracking is different in that mode.


The P3 gamut is that projector's native gamut, if any setting puts it in rec709 mode, the projector is using its internal CMS to clamp the colors. This operates independently of 8bit/10bit.

8bit / 10bit is a mapping system, it is not the color space, you can have 2bit rec2020 colors, or 100bit rec709 colors.

[Asmodian]

Perhaps the PJ can process RGB in limited mode at 30hz or lower with 10bit.

You should not need to use 4:2:0 unless you want to send 4K60. Even 4K30 12 bit RGB/444 is within the bandwidth limits. Oddly that projector seems to work in 8 bit internally with 4K60 anyway.

ProjectorCentral - Sony VPL-VW285ES 4K SXRD Projector review (https://www.projectorcentral.com/sony-vpl-vw285es-4k-projector-review.htm):
Unfortunately, this projector will down-res all 4K HDR 60 fps material to 8-bit regardless of chroma subsampling.

What is your GPU set to output?

Edit: For limited range video I prefer to use YCbCr 444 over RGB, limited is a normal concept for YCbCr while it is weird for RGB. Limited RGB uses 16-235 for all three planes while YCbCr uses 16-235 for Y but 16-240 for Cb and Cr. You would need to set madVR to full range when setting the GPU to YCbCr 444. 10 bit YCbCr 444 limited at 30 Hz or less should be a great option for that projector.

I mean something is happening with 10bit since I am noticing a difference on the test video. If it were all 8bit, it would (should) look the same either way I tested it.

Things can change between bit depths even if something isn't right.

Since I love the picture now - I may just leave it alone.

Hard to argue with that but something seems off to me. :o

But would it be worth it to try and set the PJ from BT.709 to DCI-P3 if it will let me? And see if that makes any difference?

Projector model is: VPL-VW285es - Sony


I wouldn't bother to be honest, not without a colorimeter to create a 3DLUT. Your projector has very good coverage of BT.709 but it is less good for wide gamut, most colors will be more accurate using the BT.709 mode on the projector.
I do not necessarily suggest copying their settings but they do show the gamut coverage pretty well.
Sony VPL-VW285ES Calibration Results (https://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/sony-vpl-vw285es-4k-home-theater-projector-calibration-settings/)

[LordX2]

You should not need to use 4:2:0 unless you want to send 4K60. Even 4K30 12 bit RGB/444 is within the bandwidth limits. Oddly that projector seems to work in 8 bit internally with 4K60 anyway.

Yeah, I am aware of the 'above 30hz' cut off for my PJ - My system always boots to 23.976Hz, and I have MadVR set to change the Hz for whatever the video content is.. 99% of everything I watch is 23.976 or 25fps (planet earth etc). So I am always in the 'sweet spot' in that regard.

MadVR shows that the 4k HDR Remux videos I play are "P010, 10bit, 4:2:0 (DXVA11)" in the statistics. That is where I am getting the 4:2:0 from.

My actual settings are: Nvidia is RGB Full 12bit @ 23.976, MadVR output set to Limited, PJ set to Limited.

I think it is just ME saying things wrong that is leading to the confusion!

"Your projector has very good coverage of BT.709 but it is less good for wide gamut, most colors will be more accurate using the BT.709 mode on the projector."

I noticed this as well. Both on reviews and in person. When switching to HDR content, colors are crap. But in SDR they are vivid and rich.

So with madvr tone mapping to SDR, and outputting at 10bit, I think I am getting the best I can with the setup I have.

PS - Asmodian, wanna come over and give an in person review? It's only a 3000 mile drive and a 2 week quarantine! hahaha

[Asmodian]

MadVR shows that the 4k HDR Remux videos I play are "P010, 10bit, 4:2:0 (DXVA11)" in the statistics. That is where I am getting the 4:2:0 from.

My actual settings are: Nvidia is RGB Full 12bit @ 23.976, MadVR output set to Limited, PJ set to Limited.

I think it is just ME saying things wrong that is leading to the confusion!

Haha, that makes sense! You are correct, I think you found your ideal settings. :)

That line is telling you about the source, madVR received 10 bit 4:2:0 video in the P010 format from DXVA11 hardware decoding.

[tp4tissue]

My guess @ what's actually happening to lordX2 is that the projector goes into a pc mode of sorts when fed 444 rgb full, on many systems this disables the dynamic brightness/contrast image manipulation of the projector itself. and it may well clamp to rec709 instead of native p3 gamut. This could account for the loss in perceived saturation both from the contrast and gamut difference. Potentially also following a different gamma curve

For an image to be rendered too brightly due to levels mismatch, The PC has to send the wrong 16-235 levels while the Projector is expecting 0-255. If that is NOT the case, then the projector is doing full rgb correctly.

This is why you need to check the 0,0,0 black, if that black is about the same, while comparing both modes with all dynamic contrast/iris settings disabled, THAT MEANS the projector is doing the RGB Full correctly.

[tp4tissue]

@ Asmodian.

If Madvr is doing math to go from rec2020 to P3, then isn't it always better to feed it a rec2020 lut ?

Because that way, Madvr can do 1 less mathing of the gamut, we rely on argyll cms to math the gamut ONCE, And this side is more reliable because they are compressing using actual measurement data, WHEREAS, if Madvr does their math even once, it's Blind math, made with assumptions that don't always hold up on real color systems.

[Asmodian]

Well, not in practice, but theoretically you do want a custom 3DLUT for every source color space.

The difference between BT.2020 and DCI-P3 is a purely theoretical and an absolutely precise mathematical relationship, both sides are their theoretical color spaces. Assuming you are working with DCI-P3 encoded in BT.2020, the normal case. I haven't seen anything mastered in BT.2020 since there are no displays capable of displaying it. When mapping to a real display we need to make tradeoffs, and making tradeoffs twice is bad, but when mapping DCI-P3 range in BT.2020 to DCI-P3 you do not need to make any tradeoffs.

When I used software 3DLUTs I did make all the SDR LUTs, since that is so quick, but the difference was not measurable with an i1d3. I use passthrough for HDR so I haven't messed with HDR 3DLUTs. That said I would want a BT.709 and a DCI-P3 3DLUT, assuming my display's native gamut was very close to DCI-P3, and not worry about the pure math BT.2020 -> DCI-P3 conversion.

[huhn]

not sure if madVR does that or if it is worth any processing power but if you are tone mapping you can can do that to the gamut conversation too. so the tone mapping could do a better job if it knows that the gamut needs to be compressed too.

[tp4tissue]

Well, not in practice, but theoretically you do want a custom 3DLUT for every source color space.

The difference between BT.2020 and DCI-P3 is a purely theoretical and an absolutely precise mathematical relationship, both sides are their theoretical color spaces. Assuming you are working with DCI-P3 encoded in BT.2020, the normal case. I haven't seen anything mastered in BT.2020 since there are no displays capable of displaying it. When mapping to a real display we need to make tradeoffs, and making tradeoffs twice is bad, but when mapping DCI-P3 range in BT.2020 to DCI-P3 you do not need to make any tradeoffs.


The definitions may be precise, but there are always idiosyncrasies in real systems that the math can't account for. My question was whether feeding madvr the rec2020 lut would save 1 transform.

Absent real offsets it's still very possible to swing wide even if by definition it should hit.

The data may be perfect but when you cast it, /problem.

I believe that movie Shadow is rec2020, but the bulk of the movie is greyscale, so idk what they were going for.

[el Filou]

There are situations where it can scale chroma to 1440 while scaling 4K luma to 1440. Probably doesn't work with SSIM though. :oyou just have to make sure the chroma scaler isn't a x2 algorithm even with SSIMI stand corrected, I made a wrong assumption. I compared on my desktop which has a 1440 display and it indeed works, and the difference (ReconSoft + SSIM2D) is massive: -55% performance without it!

[huhn]

well do you want to fill put the bug report. i mean it says scale chroma separately if it saves performance it clearly doesn't.

[el Filou]

I meant minus 55% performance with the option unchecked, so it does indeed saves performance. Or, if you prefer to phrase it another way, more than 2x the rendering time if the save performance option is not checked.

[tp4tissue]

hang on what's going on with chroma ? what are the comparisons for the performance saving?

[whitestar999]

I meant minus 55% performance with the option unchecked, so it does indeed saves performance. Or, if you prefer to phrase it another way, more than 2x the rendering time if the save performance option is not checked.
I am planning on installing win 10 v1909(currently using LTSC 2019 on ryzen 1200 with 1050Ti) but heard that too many updates result in issues with madvr. Would you recommend it over LTSC & if yes then are there any steps to follow to avoid issues with madvr?

[Siso]

I am planning on installing win 10 v1909(currently using LTSC 2019 on ryzen 1200 with 1050Ti) but heard that too many updates result in issues with madvr. Would you recommend it over LTSC & if yes then are there any steps to follow to avoid issues with madvr?

I'm goin' to install ltsc in about 1-2 weeks, but haven't heard about any issues with madvr. Are there any, if anyone knows please do tell.

[Asmodian]

I am using Win10 20H2. No issues with madVR after lowering the frame presented in advance.

What issues are people having?

[el Filou]

I am planning on installing win 10 v1909(currently using LTSC 2019 on ryzen 1200 with 1050Ti) but heard that too many updates result in issues with madvr. Would you recommend it over LTSC & if yes then are there any steps to follow to avoid issues with madvr?Based on experience, it's not the frequency of updates but their timing. I play it very safe on my HTPC and only update about 6 months after a Windows release and I've never had any problems even though I'm not using LTSC (I will very soon update to 20H2, as now the H1 and H2 builds share the same core).
Most of the time the problems are with GPU drivers or the OS itself and get resolved after a few weeks.
IIRC I've only seen one issue with Windows 10 where a change was needed in madVR itself, and it was resolved by madshi after some months.hang on what's going on with chroma ? what are the comparisons for the performance saving?I was comparing the performance with "scale chroma separately" (in trade quality for performance options) checked and unchecked, with 4K video on a 1440 display. I thought that didn't work but it was a misguided assumption from when I was using NGU for chroma (you can't use a doubling scaler for it to work, as huhn mentioned).
Of course the case with an even bigger performance gain is where display def = exact half of video def.

[whitestar999]

I'm goin' to install ltsc in about 1-2 weeks, but haven't heard about any issues with madvr. Are there any, if anyone knows please do tell.
Currently there seems to be no issues but I have noticed some serious fluctuations in download speeds of my wifi(maybe my case only as I am using an old usb ac wifi adapter which works fine on win 8.1 in another system) & also Microsoft had released update for ryzen scheduling issue in v1903(LTSC is v1809) which can increase the performance of ryzen processors by a decent amount in gaming like scenarios so thinking of trying the v1909(comments suggests it is very stable plus enterprise version support is there till 11 may 2021).

[whitestar999]

Based on experience, it's not the frequency of updates but their timing. I play it very safe on my HTPC and only update about 6 months after a Windows release and I've never had any problems even though I'm not using LTSC (I will very soon update to 20H2, as now the H1 and H2 builds share the same core).
Most of the time the problems are with GPU drivers or the OS itself and get resolved after a few weeks.
IIRC I've only seen one issue with Windows 10 where a change was needed in madVR itself, and it was resolved by madshi after some months.
By updates you mean windows regular updates or windows version updates(say 1903 to 1909)?

[el Filou]

If you're going to switch to the standard branch and you've got recent (= still supported by manufacturer) hardware, I'd switch directly to 20H2. It's the same kernel as 20H1 so it's been out for 6 months now, all the showstopping bugs have been fixed and you'll get 12 additional months of updates compared to 1909.
If you're worried about issues, just update Windows once a year around november/december and you should be fine.By updates you mean windows regular updates or windows version updates(say 1903 to 1909)?Both really. I update to a newer Windows version once a year around november/december, and for monthly updates I manually pause them and update during the second weekend after patch tuesday (i.e. a week and a half after the monthly update is released).

[Siso]

Currently there seems to be no issues but I have noticed some serious fluctuations in download speeds of my wifi(maybe my case only as I am using an old usb ac wifi adapter which works fine on win 8.1 in another system) & also Microsoft had released update for ryzen scheduling issue in v1903(LTSC is v1809) which can increase the performance of ryzen processors by a decent amount in gaming like scenarios so thinking of trying the v1909(comments suggests it is very stable plus enterprise version support is there till 11 may 2021).

My cpu is xeon x5650, so I don't need the new ryzen stuff. So I guess ltsc still would be a good choice.