madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Sebastiii]

It works just fine on NVIDIA without FSE.

Agreed :)

[mclingo]

Agreed :)

is FSE just required for AMD cards then?, they deal with MVC frame packed 3D differently.

[HillieSan]

@mclingo

Have you tried to set video frames from 8 to 4?

in rendering->exclusive mode->

Also try to set GPU queue size from 8 to 4 and see if it changes things

in rendering->general settings->

This has fixed FSE issues with some here in this forum. I will try it soon and see if it helps.

[mclingo]

@mclingo

Have you tried to set video frames from 8 to 4?

in rendring->exclusive mode->

This has fixed FSE issues with some here in this forum. I will try it soon and see if it helped.

i'll try that but if we dont need FSE why use it, people are telling me its not required for MVC playback but I cant get it without FSE turned on, something odd going on here.

[HillieSan]

True. I have moved from FSE to fullscreen windowed this week and it works fine. I am not using 3D. Anyway I will lower the buffers and see what happens.

[mclingo]

True. I have moved from FSE to fullscreen windowed this week and it works fine. I am not using 3D. Anyway I will lower the buffers and see what happens.

are you saying MVC 3D works fine or just general playback?

Are you sure its not converting it to SBS, if your projector is automatically sensing 3D SBS it might switch to that mode and you'd never know.

best way to check is turn 3D off on the projector while its playing, if you see two images its SBS.

[el Filou]

reclock is buggy as hell with creators version of windows 10. I dropped it completely.Only when using FSE mode, Windowed is fine. It's all the fault of Microsoft's "full screen optimisation" changes, really.

sorry i misread, thanks for your help. Any idea why i'm having to use 23p display mode instead of 24p? which i've used with AMD card for over 10 years'23 Hz' is supposed to be 23,976 and '24 Hz' 24,000; but if the display is HDMI and uses standard TV modes, Windows normally applies 23,976 even if you select 24 Hz (for compatibility: no correctly authored consumer content is supposed to be 24,000 Hz).
Did you maybe enable some trick to force real 24,000 Hz to the display, or are you playing a 24,000 fps movie?
A frame repeat every 40 seconds is the typical symptom of playing 23,976 material at 24,000 Hz, and a drop every 40 seconds when playing 24,000 (i.e. badly mastered) material at 23,976 Hz.

[steakhutzeee]

Evening, in the section i posted the screenshot below, i always used NGU Sharp with luma doubling setted to high. All the rest let madvr decide.

Yesterday i saw a youtube video where the user suggested to use these settings, what do you think? I'm not expert so i'm testing:

https://postimg.org/image/nis3mwkjv/

Another question, if i use Ctrl J during video, i can see that my monitor frequency is 59,9 or something similar. Never 60. Is this right this way?

At the moment i turned back my settings, only ngu sharp with doubling on high. It looks better this way. But so why that video suggests the configuration i posted? I want to learn, what's the use of those settings?

[mclingo]

Only when using FSE mode, Windowed is fine. It's all the fault of Microsoft's "full screen optimisation" changes, really.

'23 Hz' is supposed to be 23,976 and '24 Hz' 24,000; but if the display is HDMI and uses standard TV modes, Windows normally applies 23,976 even if you select 24 Hz (for compatibility: no correctly authored consumer content is supposed to be 24,000 Hz).
Did you maybe enable some trick to force real 24,000 Hz to the display, or are you playing a 24,000 fps movie?
A frame repeat every 40 seconds is the typical symptom of playing 23,976 material at 24,000 Hz, and a drop every 40 seconds when playing 24,000 (i.e. badly mastered) material at 23,976 Hz.

no seriously, i've always had my display modes set to 24p and had no issues until recently, I wasnt using reclock either.

What are your thoughts on FSE and 3D MVC, people are stating quite categorically 3D MVC should work without FSE but in the years i've been using this i've never had it work without FSE ticked.

[iSeries]

no correctly authored consumer content is supposed to be 24,000 Hz).

Both 23.976fps and 24fps are legitimate frame rates according to the blu ray standards

[HillieSan]

are you saying MVC 3D works fine or just general playback?

Are you sure its not converting it to SBS, if your projector is automatically sensing 3D SBS it might switch to that mode and you'd never know.

best way to check is turn 3D off on the projector while its playing, if you see two images its SBS.

I am not using 3D.

[mclingo]

any other AMD card users with a 3D TV that can play 3D MVC frame packed rips?

[huhn]

maybe give people the chance to test it on a weekend?

[mclingo]

yeah no rush, I can use my system in the meantime, just not KODI as i'm getting black screen on every stop, got a few things to try though tonight regarding this. just thought someone would actually know this for sure without having to test it, its also on by default in MADVR.

[el Filou]

If that is useful to anyone, I've tried the new driver 388.59 and the bug I had with the 'offset' in brightness levels (clipped whites + washed out blacks) in RGB Full on drivers 384-385 with my 1050 Ti is now fixed. I never got an official acknowledgement from NVIDIA when I reported, so I wonder if maybe they took note of it but filed it 'fix later'. Lesson learned: if you've got a 'limited issue' bug, just report then wait for the next major driver branch instead of hoping they will fix it in the current one. :D
(Edit: it's also a testimony to how difficult Windows 10 is to support, with at least 3 different versions for hardware vendors to test for concurrently, plus Win7 and Win8.1)

Both 23.976fps and 24fps are legitimate frame rates according to the blu ray standardsBut is it a good idea to use it? I feel like 23,976 is the more compatible option of the two, I don't get why studios would want to use 24.

[SirSwede]

Will a GTX1060 be enough for upscaling a 720p, 50 or 60 fps, video to 4K with the best settings?
Or should I go for the 1070, just to be sure?

The price difference where I live between this two is HUGE!

[Sebastiii]

is FSE just required for AMD cards then?, they deal with MVC frame packed 3D differently.

Maybe i can't or can confirm it like i'm Nvidia owner but for sure no more FSE on my and MediaPortal :P and 3D MVC is working

[huhn]

But is it a good idea to use it? I feel like 23,976 is the more compatible option of the two, I don't get why studios would want to use 24.

why not there is a reason a PC supports 23p and 24p.
it is very likely that movies are still created in 24p for cinema and just transfers to 23p.

[el Filou]

why not there is a reason a PC supports 23p and 24p.My bad, you're right. I just tested and true 24/60 works. Is the 'hack Direct3D to make 24/60 work' in madVR only needed for FSE mode?

it is very likely that movies are still created in 24p for cinema and just transfers to 23p.
Yes I was only thinking about consumer media transfers.

[huhn]

My bad, you're right. I just tested and true 24/60 works. Is the 'hack Direct3D to make 24/60 work' in madVR only needed for FSE mode?

i don't know anymore.

[Asmodian]

Will a GTX1060 be enough for upscaling a 720p, 50 or 60 fps, video to 4K with the best settings?
Or should I go for the 1070, just to be sure?

No, a 1070 would not be enough for the "best" settings. A 1080 Ti is just enough for almost the best settings as long as you don't use too many enhancements and/or artifact removal options.

[SirSwede]

No, a 1070 would not be enough for the "best" settings. A 1080 Ti is just enough for almost the best settings as long as you don't use too many enhancements and/or artifact removal options.

Thanks for that! :thanks:

What would it take to upscale 720p based on your settings.bin?

[Asmodian]

720 is probably one of the hardest modes (when going to 4K) in my settings.bin. It probably needs a full 1080 Ti, but hopefully one without an overclock or power target increase. My Titan X, with the same number of cores, can run all my settings at stock.. but 720p might need an increase to the power limit. :o

[austonrush]

no seriously, i've always had my display modes set to 24p and had no issues until recently, I wasnt using reclock either.

What are your thoughts on FSE and 3D MVC, people are stating quite categorically 3D MVC should work without FSE but in the years i've been using this i've never had it work without FSE ticked.

You do not need FSE if you have windows 10! Period

Windowed mode works perfect

[austonrush]

no seriously, i've always had my display modes set to 24p and had no issues until recently, I wasnt using reclock either.


I've always had to set mine to 23p to get it to work. I have only ever used nvidia graphic cards. I think it is totally display specific.

[austonrush]

Will a GTX1060 be enough for upscaling a 720p, 50 or 60 fps, video to 4K with the best settings?
Or should I go for the 1070, just to be sure?

The price difference where I live between this two is HUGE!

I have a 1070 so, you know my opinion ;) lol A 1080 TI would be great but, that is out of my price point.

[austonrush]

My bad, you're right. I just tested and true 24/60 works. Is the 'hack Direct3D to make 24/60 work' in madVR only needed for FSE mode?



I'm not sure it is required anymore for windows 10. I don't have it checked off anymore. Does anyone use it still?

[mclingo]

You do not need FSE if you have windows 10! Period

Windowed mode works perfect

thanks but yes we already know this, NVIDIA cards work, several people have already stated this, AMD cards dont, I cant get mine to work anyway and nobody has stated their works either yet.

FSE has to be on for me or I get no MVC 3D.

[mclingo]

i fixed the black screen issue, its not KODI DS or MADVR,...what was happening was when I pressed x on my remote to stop it would stop but also minimise to desktop, my desktop is black and my start menu hidden, hence the black screen. I think this was actually a problem with my AUTOHOTKEY script, I had a key mapped to that, bizarrely it was sending x + #d which is stop and minimise, very odd, there was nothing in my script. I deleted the line and re-added and now all ok.

So i'm now just left with the mystery why I have to use FSE mode to get MVC framepacked 3D when the whole world (mostly NVIDIA users) tells me I shouldnt need it.

[iSeries]

But is it a good idea to use it? I feel like 23,976 is the more compatible option of the two, I don't get why studios would want to use 24.

Agreed, and it is pretty rare nonetheless.

[HillieSan]

thanks but yes we already know this, NVIDIA cards work, several people have already stated this, AMD cards dont, I cant get mine to work anyway and nobody has stated their works either yet.

FSE has to be on for me or I get no MVC 3D.

?

AMD works with fullscreen windows mode!

You need to stop using reclock or FRC! Try to get your card to work without these tools!!!! See my settings as I gave you before!!!

I think MVC 3D will work. AMD is great, very stable, but does not do very high settings.

[SirSwede]

720 is probably one of the hardest modes (when going to 4K) in my settings.bin. It probably needs a full 1080 Ti, but hopefully one without an overclock or power target increase. My Titan X, with the same number of cores, can run all my settings at stock.. but 720p might need an increase to the power limit. :o

Wow! Really? Okay, cheers for this. You have been very helpful and I might as well wait and try and run your settings.bin until I have saved up for the 1080, as most of the material I watch is 720p@25fps and will be doing so on my new 4K TV.

[Jesco]

thanks but yes we already know this, NVIDIA cards work, several people have already stated this, AMD cards dont, I cant get mine to work anyway and nobody has stated their works either yet.

FSE has to be on for me or I get no MVC 3D.

Can you get 2D playing on your AMD, in FSE? As I stated yesterday, I can play 2D on my AMD in FSE without any problem. Using mpc-hc that is.

[Asmodian]

Wow! Really? Okay, cheers for this. You have been very helpful and I might as well wait and try and run your settings.bin until I have saved up for the 1080, as most of the material I watch is 720p@25fps and will be doing so on my new 4K TV.

To be honest disabling quadrupling for 720p is not a bad idea at all. Jinc offers very good quality for taking NGU doubled 720p to 2160p directly, the quality difference between that and downscaling from quadrupled 2880p is minor. My settings.bin is meant to maximize quality for a 1080 Ti+ user, not be an optimal quality/power point or anything close to that. It is the settings I use, minus changes I sometimes make for specific sources. :o

It would be interesting to create a few config options I consider optimal for different power levels without targeting specific GPUs. My current one would probably need to be called "heater mode". I do think I could do a much more reasonable profile for max quality, but without spending power just because it is available. I'll get started. :)

[huhn]

even lanczos3 for 1440p to 2160p using a 720p source is totally fine.
after doubling the benefits of a really good scaler have a huge diminishing return

[SirSwede]

even lanczos3 for 1440p to 2160p using a 720p source is totally fine.
after doubling the benefits of a really good scaler have a huge diminishing return

Really? :thanks: for this!

You don't happen to have any recommended settings for watching 720p on a 2160p screen, using a GT740 (GDDR5), that I can use until I am able to get my hands on a GTX 1080?

A GT740 will not be able to do any doubling at all, will it? :o

[SirSwede]

To be honest disabling quadrupling for 720p is not a bad idea at all. Jinc offers very good quality for taking NGU doubled 720p to 2160p directly, the quality difference between that and downscaling from quadrupled 2880p is minor. My settings.bin is meant to maximize quality for a 1080 Ti+ user, not be an optimal quality/power point or anything close to that. It is the settings I use, minus changes I sometimes make for specific sources. :o

It would be interesting to create a few config options I consider optimal for different power levels without targeting specific GPUs. My current one would probably need to be called "heater mode". I do think I could do a much more reasonable profile for max quality, but without spending power just because it is available. I'll get started. :)

That'd be incredibly helpful!

I have stuck with v. 0.87.10 longer than I should and mostly because the amount of options now make my head spin. :scared:

[SamuriHL]

To be honest disabling quadrupling for 720p is not a bad idea at all. Jinc offers very good quality for taking NGU doubled 720p to 2160p directly, the quality difference between that and downscaling from quadrupled 2880p is minor. My settings.bin is meant to maximize quality for a 1080 Ti+ user, not be an optimal quality/power point or anything close to that. It is the settings I use, minus changes I sometimes make for specific sources. :o

It would be interesting to create a few config options I consider optimal for different power levels without targeting specific GPUs. My current one would probably need to be called "heater mode". I do think I could do a much more reasonable profile for max quality, but without spending power just because it is available. I'll get started. :)

That'd be pretty sweet, actually. I just started over with my 1060 settings now that I've rebuilt the machine with the replacement. I suspect I'm going to start tweaking it again, but, I'm only doing 1080p on a panny plasma. Still, it'd be nice to have everything setup properly for when my golden goose comes in and I can buy a 2016 LG OLED 3D capable 4k screen. LMAO :D My 1060 is 6gb and works very well for 1080p....no surprise there.

[SirSwede]

GTX1070: Can use NGU Sharp/very high luma, with Lanczos3AR (only NGU high with JincAR), with NGU AA/Sharp high chroma & medium strength RCA, instead of high strength setting. Still comparing, Lanczos3AR vs JincAR. Best choice, might, depend on need for RCA high strength & Madashi, said, he is working on "free" RCA high, for use, with NGU Sharp. Thanks for this.


Sorry for being a n00b; what's "RCA"?

[Asmodian]

Remove Compression Artifacts

[SirSwede]

Remove Compression Artifacts

Thanks! I must be blind, can't find that option at all (I'm on 0.92.4).

[ryrynz]

Not blind, it was added in 0.92.5..
Just update your madVR already. Also a new version will probably be out in the next few days.

[SirSwede]

Not blind, it was added in 0.92.5..
Just update your madVR already. Also a new version will probably be out in the next few days.

Ok. Thanks.

[HillieSan]

Try lowering the the "how many video frames shall be presented in advance: to 4 or less than default of 8. It worked for me on my AMD card.

I tried this yesterday and it did not solve the problem. Actually, the problem is that FSE sometimes locks my RX 480. My both screens go black and they are (often) frozen. Then I need to reset my PC.

[Manni]

@Madshi

I posted about this by mistake here https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1826900&postcount=403

As Nev has confirmed HLG wasn't supported yet, any chance we could add support for it, even if only in passthrough?

At the moment it's mostly demo files, but real content is coming, at least in streaming/broadcast in the UK/EU/Japan, for example this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42225220.

As it's much easier to implement than Dolby Vision, it would be nice to have such support in MadVR/MadTPG, not necessarily for playback but for testing/calibration, especially of non HLG compatible displays such as the pre-2018 JVCs (already have implemented an experimental HLG gamma curve on my rs500, it seems to be working great).

[mclingo]

I tried this yesterday and it did not solve the problem. Actually, the problem is that FSE sometimes locks my RX 480. My both screens go black and they are (often) frozen. Then I need to reset my PC.

same happens here, however, i think this is a driver issue as if i go back to 17.10.2 several things happen.

1. lockups change to hdmi loss instead which can be retrived with a devcon reset so no need to power cycle PC.

2. using 1080p24 / 2160p24 instead of 23p works again, I get no frame drops or repeats in hours.

3. HDR plays ok but is choppy, no frame drops, I think this driver version breaks HEVC decoding.

So we either use latest version of everything and get random lockups, I get them sometimes when FSE is disabled when coming out of HDR stuff so DIRECT3d is also problematic, I think its the 23p thing, could me my LG OLED doesnt properly support that.

or we have a reasonable stable system on older drivers and no HDR playback.

I'm yet to try any later ATI versions, i'm getting a bit tired of all this now.

I may even put my Gefore 1050 back in.

[mclingo]

might of stumbled on a sweet spot for 4K RX users using KODI DS (havent tried MPC yet)

- AMD driver 17.11.2 (fixes HEVC HDR playback - seems to be on the only stable drive, latest locks up using FSE
- Use 1080p for KODI DS GUI, if you use 4k when you stop a movie, usually a 3D one you get HDMI loss which can only be retrieved with a DEVCON restart.
- use FSE in MADVR to get 3D MVC (doesnt work without)
- use DIRECT3D in MADVR - HDR passthrough doesnt work without.
- use full screen window in KODI DS, seem more stable.
- user 24p display modes not 23p, this also causes lockups and HDMI loss for me but it could be an issue with my LG OL

i'll need a few days to see how stable this is, KODI doesnt tend to switch back to 4k desktop on closing but i've had this problem for ages so its unrelated.

[HillieSan]

same happens here, however, i think this is a driver issue as if i go back to 17.10.2 several things happen.


I think it only happens with NGU. I will check this probably this evening.


2. using 1080p24 / 2160p24 instead of 23p works again, I get no frame drops or repeats in hours.

Good to hear :-)

3. HDR plays ok but is choppy, no frame drops, I think this driver version breaks HEVC decoding.

I had this problem too. I can't remember exactly what i did to solve it. I do remember that it was a weird problem, because I thought that all settings were correct. One more thing I had to do was to add "2160p23, 2160p24, 2160p25, 2160p59, 2160p60" to display modes->list all display modes madVR may switch to->. Otherwise madVR picked the wrong frequency and it selected to wrong resolution (1080 instead of 2160).

So we either use latest version of everything and get random lockups, I get them sometimes when FSE is disabled when coming out of HDR stuff so DIRECT3d is also problematic, I think its the 23p thing, could me my LG OLED doesnt properly support that.

Except for the lockups with FSE, all is working fine with the RX 480. HDR and 4K works good. I use the latest Windows version and the latest drivers.

EDIT: use D3D11 and not D3D9 in LAV and madVR

[Yoshi]

Although the following quotes are from years ago, since they are still up do date and worth to be discussed, I want to bring up the following again, especially based on what Madshi posted at that time.

@Mark, all the resampling filters are a compromise between aliasing, sharpness and ringing. There is no filter which is best in every category.

Considering that video signals are essentially the same as audio signals, I wonder why in practice it seems to be such a challenge to get it right in the video domain. I might be corrected but I think when it comes to audio, taking any voodoo/audiophile arguments aside, filters which leave the usable bandwidth quite intact while suppressing any other range which could cause aliasing are rather easily achievable using cheap and decent technics nowadays.

Do you want higher frequency response and live with ugly jaggies? Or do you want smooth jaggies and can live with a lower frequency response?

So what is the reason that already when it comes to low-pass-filtering of images it seems to be such a trade-off between sharpness and aliasing to be made still in 2017?

For anyone considering my comparison between video and audio far-fetched and "unorthodox": both are the same phenomenon at least in their waveform appearance - amplitude change over time. So any video signal, be it 4K in BT2020 or whatever nowadays fancy color space could be represented by a pure analog waveform to be digitized. Hence I wonder why a downscale is still such a challenge. Couldn't one apply the same already proven tools theoretical in the analog domain of the signal to archieve better results then?

However, dithering down to 8bit should produce very good results. I don't think anyone could see a difference between dithered 8bit and 10bit.

I'd be interesting in your opinion on the following:

Wouldn't it be possible to reproduce any color space and any gamut and any brightness and gradient with any bitdepth, be it one bit only given ideal dither implementation? The only drawback of lower bitdepth should be a higher noise floor, effectively preventing darker tones to be resolved as they would be masked by the dither and quantization noise of course. Hence I'm not saying that the bitdepth is irrelevant but I'd claim that any color or tonal variation should be able to effectively displayed with whatever bitdepth down to the noise floor at least.

Audio domain teaches that when applying either, there are no stair steps or discrete loudness levels depending on the bitdepth but only the noise floor which is getting higher of about 6dB per bit. That the smoothness of an audio signal depends on the sampling rate or bitdepth is a very common misconception so I wonder why it is still so common with pictures and video. Everywhere, one can read "the higher the bitdepth, the higher the available steps", etc.

Yes, please. madVR will most probably never do any kind of intermediate frame interpolation. So this discussion doesn't really belong here.

Well, at least from an admittedly quite theoretical point of view, the signal theory would dictate you to do so because the individual frames of a movie are snapshots or samples according to Nyquist/Shannon which - just as pixels - were never supposed to be shown separately but reconstructed as a continuous movement. ;)

Most people would say that the higher a frame rate, the smoother the movie and movement of a movie will become. Theoretically, that's not true: the only thing which changes is the nyquist frequency. In that case: what speed of movement can be reconstructed without aliasing. Anything else, including the frame-by-frame display of a movie - strictly speaking - is wrong to begin with.

Basically it's the same as with dithering vs debanding: Dithering tries to make sure that madVR processing does not add new banding artifacts.
I recognized that when making a screenshot of a movie when using madVR and dithering to 1-bit only, while error diffusion dithering results in images containing only up to 8 colors just as to be expected, with random dithering, several thousand colors are counted and I wonder why. Apparently, some fusion between neighbour pixels takes place, raising the amount of colors, but why?

[mclingo]

what magic are people using to get decent timings out of their nvidia cards, got a 1050 and no matter what I do cant better 23.971. I tried adding a custom res, when I set it as 23hz and 23.976 it saves it as a 24hz res and changes the time to 24,000, cant get the settings to hold at all, what am i doing wrong?

I set it up, click test, it all looks ok but when its saved it all wrong.