madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[mclingo]

ok, got everything locked in exactly as in screen shot, but its even worse, now down to under 10 mins

[mclingo]

Getting somewhere now, the timings to start with didn't work for me, I had to push mine to 23,977 in and to get close 23,976 in madvr at the moment I'm showing 3 hours no drops, if this holds I owe you a beer mate. Does this we can no longer rely on solid 23,976 support from amd, it looks like it, wonder if it has anything to do with upcoming very on the way.

[Klaus1189]

My RX 5700XT is solid 23.976, no issue here, also with all other refresh rates. Would by it again. Price is also good, not cheap but adequate

[tp4tissue]

How are you guys achieving these numbers.

If i put in 23.976 in CRU, I only get 23.9755 readout on madvr. Where do I go from here ? I can't input 23.9765 ,

CRU actually reads 23.977 in its table

[SirMaster]

Does anyone have a good guide for nVidia custom timings?

I am just running stock nVidia 23Hz which gives me 1 frame repeat every 6.5 minutes or so and I would like to try to increase this time I guess to see if I can improve it.

[Klaus1189]

Play a 23 Hz file for at least 10 minutes and create with CRU a custom resolution using a calculated one in madvr

[mclingo]

its really odd some of us AMD users are getting solid timings and some not now, this never used to be the case, I guess at least CRU's work, i'm getting some sense of what NVIDIA users have had to put up with for years.

[Klaus1189]

Do you have more than one tv or monitor connected? Could that also cause issues?

[QBhd]

Don't forget... my custom resolutions that I linked to are only meant to be a starting point. You start there, play a video for 10+ minutes then optimize, reboot, and repeat.

As for 23.976 support with AMD... it's good enough. As I showed with my testing today, it all depends on your output. If I use Direct Sound HDMI, I get no frame drops/repeats expected... If I use Direct Sound to my PCI-e sound card I get repeated frames every 18 minutes... and if I use WASAPI Audio Renderer the repeats go up to 3-4 hours (if it even does the calculation in the first place). And these different values are all out of the box AMD/OS/Standard timings.

Your "issue" has nothing to with 23.976 support. I know this issue very very well... If I was to guess, the OS just wants to use the EDID's "standard timings" above all else. CRU will override this, but it has limitations. For example you can setup a 23Hz timing, but not a 24Hz timing. I watch lots of content across all of the 23, 24, 25, 29, 30, 50, 59, and 60 "Hz" ranges... this is when I was banging my head against the wall for weeks since I could optimize some and not others. I would even get to a point where I would optimize for 24, but it was changing the 23. Or the 23 would use the 24.... it was a frustrating mess trying to optimize.

As I said in my "guide"... it was only desperation that I stumbled upon the heart of the problem... I just started deleting EVERY 4k resolution I could find in the EDID with CRU... not just the extensions, I went full nuclear on all 4k resolutions.... And then I got to a point where the OS and madVR only showed one, the rest were all "missing" modes. But at this stage you can create your own (either in madVR or AMD) and just like that I could optimize all of them. I then went back and reset everything to out of the box, and slowly worked through which timings were the ones that were overriding all... And that's when I made that "guide", especially after tyguy reported the same thing I had been seeing.

So who is to blame? LG for the EDID? The OS for ONLY using the Standard Timings, which cannot be edited since there are no details to edit? AMD for not being able to make their custom timings override the Standard Timings? madVR for not recognizing the difference between a custom resolution and the actual resolution being used? Maybe all of the above? I just know how to fix it through hours and days and weeks of troubleshooting.

QB

[mclingo]

just for laughs, i've not lost all HDMI audio, nothing there at all, nothing in control panel like its not even installed, its now my week, i'll probably have to wipe the lot with DDU and start it all again... ffs

[Klaus1189]

Do you have another tv for testing, not sure at all, but with AMD you should get solid refresh rates out of the box without the need of CRU or other complicated things.

Please try that.

[Klaus1189]

Perhaps a bit more suitable for the driver thread, isn‘t it?

[QBhd]

@mclingo:
If you lost HDMI... I am guessing you deleted something you should not have in CRU.

As for where this discussion should be, it's a madVR thing. mclingo could not get optimizations to work, and that is part of madVR.

QB

[mclingo]

try reading back Klaus mate, i've literally chucked everything but the kitchen sink at this including a different TV model, its this card as it works fine with my AMD 4650 1080p spare card, i'm just happy now with 3 hours using CRU, I can live with workarounds but I'll be dropping this card as soon as the next gen comes out in the hop it will be better, this cards has just had too many issues right accross the board.

[Klaus1189]

Strange nevertheless, my 5700 XT is different ;)

[QBhd]

@mclingo

It's not your card. As for your 3 hours... it can be better if you use madVR to optimize. CRU is really not the best or easiest way of tuning your custom resolution. Play video, optimize, reboot. The longer you play the video the better the results. With your 3 hours, play a full movie (don't pause or skip or do anything other than play) and after do the optimize, hit apply, and then reboot.

QB

[huhn]

How are you guys achieving these numbers.

If i put in 23.976 in CRU, I only get 23.9755 readout on madvr. Where do I go from here ? I can't input 23.9765 ,

CRU actually reads 23.977 in its table

because even up to this day this number is totally irrelevant.

Does anyone have a good guide for nVidia custom timings?

I am just running stock nVidia 23Hz which gives me 1 frame repeat every 6.5 minutes or so and I would like to try to increase this time I guess to see if I can improve it.

there is no difference between using AMD or nvidia if you are using CRU.

nvidia is just very buggy if you try to use there custom resolution tool which madVR tries to use.

[Alexkral]

Cheers, I'll be interested in the results. Do you have an ETA?
And it would be nice to also include NGU Sharp Low/Med/High.

Actually I'm just trying to improve some things and I still have to decide others, I don't think it will take more than a month.

with close PSNR and other matrics the psnr is not that important but how the human eye perceives it. so it's as always not surefull to judge quality.

Yes, it is well known that the PSNR doesn't have a good correlation with the perceived quality, what I'm finding is that the so-called perceptual metrics yield very different results from each other, and neither do they seem to be too reliable when the difference between the images is very small.

[hannes69]

CRU will override this, but it has limitations. For example you can setup a 23Hz timing, but not a 24Hz timing.
If you have troubles like that try if your display device accepts 48Hz or 72Hz... So you can use e.g. 23.976 & 48 or 24 & 47.952.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Regarding custom resolutions:
If you are unsure what timings are used (e.g. whether madVR is successful with applying a different custom resolution or not) you can look up the currently used timings in the Radeon settings (settings - display - display specs).
If madVR is unable to apply custom resolutions then normally it´s a driver issue. Then you always have CRU as a workaround. You can use madVR for calculation of the timings and use CRU for applying it by using EDID overrides and not the custom resolution driver route.
All problems regarding custom resolutions can be worked around beside one: If you are unlucky you have a display device that is very restricted with custom timings and you get a black screen with most timings.
Beside that it should be no problem to create the needed custom resolutions (the whole set would be 23.976 (or multiples), 24.000 (or multiples), 50.000, 59.940, 60.000) with an accuracy for frame drops/repeats every xx hours.

[tp4tissue]

Could someone make a Youtube video on setting CRU/ Nvidia /AMD and the Optimization part ?

I tried deleting all the other 4K settings including 23.976 settings from all the places mentioned in the guide, and it doesn't work, The readout now says 23.955 instead of 23.9755 (from before). This is on my AMD pc.

The only 4K setting in there is the one I set 23.976 (23.977) through CRU

I'm trying to understand the optimization workflow part ?

[Asmodian]

You can do it by trial and error. Simply set it a bit faster since when set to 23.977 is a little slow. Also, remember that getting very rare frame drops/repeats is the important part, not the exact reported refresh rate.

[hannes69]

http://madvr.com/crt/CustomResTutorial.html

If this doesn´t work because of driver bugs, take the numbers from madVR amd make custom resolutions with CRU by using the given numbers.

QBhd mentioned additional tweaking if it is needed to remove given timings.

So that is all information that is needed to make working custom resolutions.

No youtube video.
Here at doom9 with madVR we are in the area of adult matter, not kindergarden showing a youtube video "put the yellow triangle block into the according place" :D

[QBhd]

Could someone make a Youtube video on setting CRU/ Nvidia /AMD and the Optimization part ?

I tried deleting all the other 4K settings including 23.976 settings from all the places mentioned in the guide, and it doesn't work, The readout now says 23.955 instead of 23.9755 (from before). This is on my AMD pc.

The only 4K setting in there is the one I set 23.976 (23.977) through CRU

I'm trying to understand the optimization workflow part ?

That's the simple part... play a video for 10+ minutes. Stop. Open madVR. Go to custom resolutions. Optimize. Select a timing. Apply. Close madVR. Reboot. Repeat until you are satisfied with the drop/repeat time. Very simple

QB

[huhn]

that number is "irrelevant" you don't want it to be 24/1.001 you want it to be something that is not producing a repeated or dropped frame.
so the number you should care about is the clock deviation.

http://madvr.com/crt/CustomResTutorial.html

[NoTechi]

Strange nevertheless, my 5700 XT is different ;)

Actually mine is rock solid as well atm. No refresh rate probs like mclingo. Actually everything is working great for like 2 months now even with driver/windows updates ... I am not used to have a solid system for that long ... crosses fingers :D

NoTechi

[hannes69]

that number is "irrelevant" you don't want it to be 24/1.001 you want it to be something that is not producing a repeated or dropped frame.
so the number you should care about is the clock deviation.

No, the 'clock deviation' in madVR´s OSD means audio clock deviation. The value is more or less constant (beside fluctuations by temperature and fluctuations of the measuring system clock) and you can´t change that value (beside choosing a different audio output which then has a different clock).
So your audio clock deviation is shown with clock deviation. And your video clock deviation is 'encrypted' in display and the corresponding refresh rate Hz value.
Display doesn´t need to be e.g. 24/1.001 = 23.97602 Hz. And clock deviation doesn´t need to be 0.00000 %.
You´re only interested in "xx frame drops/repeats in xxx seconds/minutes/hours/days".

Example:
Your audio clock is running 0.01% too slowly. So the value of 'clock deviation' would be -0.01000 %.
And your video clock is running 0.01 % too slowly as well (by pure coincidence).
Then 'display' is saying 23.97363 Hz.
As a consequence you will get "no frame drops/repeats expected".

The absolute values of 'display' and 'clock deviation' are totally irrelevant in this regard. The relationship between them is the key.

[jkauff]

Perhaps a bit more suitable for the driver thread, isn‘t it?
I wouldn't like to see it moved (shouldn't be anyway--content is madVR related).

This is the first sustained activity I've seen on this thread in a couple of months. :)

[mclingo]

hi, is it not possible to tweak the back porch figure in AMD? could get even better timings if i could.

[hannes69]

Of course.
Total = display + front porch + sync width + back porch.
Because of this one value is redundant, AMD and others decided that to be the back porch for technical reasons.
Leave the porches alone, raise/lower the total. That effectively lowers/raises the back porch.

[mclingo]

ok, ta

[Cowboydude99]

Hi is there any info on how smooth motion works?

I’m watching a lot of 24p content, but have bad judder.

I kind of resolved it by turning on Smooth Motion and setting my GPU to output 60hz.

I compared this to a straight 24p BD on another monitor.
Smooth Motion looks very close to the standard blur I see in 24p content.

Does SM blend all frames, or just where the judder would occur?

[QBhd]

@mclingo... why aren't you using optimize... let madVR do the work of tweaking your custom resolutions.

QB

[mclingo]

I just wanted to get it working last night, i'm going to do it properly when I get chance maybe but I dont need more than 3 hours to be honest so if quick and dirty works its easier to reproduce should I lose the settings.

thanks for you help.

[QBhd]

Screenshots are your friend here... once you get a result you are happy with, you can either take a screenshot of the AMD timings or a screenshot of the madVR timings, both are the same. It would be nice if we could "save" these, but alas I think the only way is the screenshot and manually entering the values if you need to redo the timings after a clean install or something else that wipes our custom resolutions.

QB

[huhn]

you can backup the settings using left click copy all too.

[QBhd]

Not sure what you mean... left click where? What settings are you referring to? Don't you mean right click? This statement is extremely vague...

QB

[huhn]

display specs:
left click on the numbers (just take it decoding video is encode...)
copy all
and you get something like this:
Timing Info - Horizontal - Vertical
Total - 2040 - 1180
Display - 1920 - 1080
Front Porch - 8 - 1137
Sync Width - 55 - 8
Polarity - Positive - Negative

Interlaced/Progressive - Progressive
G.Pixel Clock (KHz) - 577150
G.Refresh Rate (Hz) - 239.76
HDMI Link Status Monitoring - Disabled
Current Link Settings - 5.4 Gbps x 4
Radeon™ FreeSync Refresh Rate - 48 to 240 Hz reported by display

[VBB]

Hi is there any info on how smooth motion works?

I’m watching a lot of 24p content, but have bad judder.

I kind of resolved it by turning on Smooth Motion and setting my GPU to output 60hz.

I compared this to a straight 24p BD on another monitor.
Smooth Motion looks very close to the standard blur I see in 24p content.

Does SM blend all frames, or just where the judder would occur?

I believe it blends all frames, hence the slight, but constant blur. Really helps if you have an OLED. And, since we're discussing this topic, you never have to worry about frame drops and custom resolutions ;)

[huhn]

no it doesn't it blends at little as possible for 24 hz input with 60 hz output ~48 out of 60 frames are blended

[QBhd]

@huhn

Ahh... in AMD software... yeah that's an option. But you would still have to manually enter the values later if you lost your custom timings for some reason. I like the screenshot route since then you know for sure where the values go

QB

[VBB]

no it doesn't it blends at little as possible for 24 hz input with 60 hz output ~48 out of 60 frames are blended

Even better then :)

[Cowboydude99]

What is the difference from scaling\upscaling refinement to procesing\image enhancement.

I'm using The Hobbit movies, which are 1080p. It seems if I use the enhancement I can see the changes.

When I use refinement, I don't notice any difference.

Do they work together, or is one better for 1080->4K?

[jkauff]

You need to tell us more about your equipment, especially your graphics card.

In any case, they do sometimes work together, but don't need to. Upscaling to 2160 from 1080 should be a big visual improvement, but that improvement will depend on your upscaling algorithm choices, which will be limited by the abilities of your graphics card. Doubling with NGU Sharp - High or NGU Anti-Alias - High produces a beautiful result on both my 4K monitor and 4K TV. That's as far as I can push my graphics cards, though (GTX 1080 for the TV, GTX 1660 SUPER for my monitor). Setting NGU to "Very high" might or might not produce a visually superior image.

Image enhancements and upscaling refinement both can produce highly visual changes, for better or for worse. You have to use your eyes and judgement for that. Personally I don't use them very much with NGU. Check out Asmodian's thread madVR Options Explained (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171787) for more detailed explanations.

[Asmodian]

Image enhancement is before scaling, so its effects are stronger but more prone to artifacts.

I like upscaling refinement a lot more, the filters look better when run at the higher resolution, but the strengths need to be higher to get an effect similar to image enhancement.

[QBhd]

I don't use either. I really love the sharpness and quality of straight NGU Sharp Very High (only my 1080o59 profile has NGU Sharp High). Not a single enhancement or refinement applied.

QB

[Asmodian]

I don't use either normally too. They can be useful for bad sources though.

[mclingo]

problems again, been watching movies all night, issues, then noticed a stutter, checked my timings and back to bloody 22 mins, i havent rebooted, installed anything or done anything but somehow all my 4k resolutions are reappeared in CRU and MADVR, guessing this is what hgas screwed everything up again.

How an earth can this happen, anyone?

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBik6g-XDYGiUueLlTsEg?e=MWZncY

also, like before, if I choose another timing it does nothing at all, just stays at measured 22 mins...

[lazostat]

Guys i have a question about duplicate screen and Madvr. Why force switch display mode doesn't work when i use duplicate screen? (Pc and TV). It works only if i make my Tv main monitor. Otherwise it goes on 60Hz, like my Pc monitor is. So everytime before i watch a movie, i have to change display shown only on TV. Then when i open the movie with WMPC and go full screen, it auto-changes the Hz according to the movie's.

Also, sometimes when i have duplicate screen, i have lags, and i don't know why. My system is good with 3600+2070 super combo.

[Asmodian]

How an earth can this happen, anyone?

The display driver re-queried the display and 'fixed' its entry in the registry.

[mclingo]

How Do we get around this, any idea why optimizes is still not working at all for me?