madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[glc650]

I wasn't able to set custom res in madvr - my nvidia driver kept refusing it.I had to use CRU to remove the 2160p24/30/60 resolutions (which also removes the 23, 29, and 59) and then add them back via madVR. Once I did that I was able to manipulate the timings. I've also had to hit the reset gpu button in madVR at times before I could change to more optimized timings of those resolutions.

[LordX2]

Or doing something crazy like smooth motion. ;)

First, thank you so much for all the help these last few days - it really helped a ton with some of the other issues I had!

I know why the frame has to drop - just wish that dropped frame could be one of the ones presented in advance, so I didn't see it on screen.

What about resampling the video itself then to match the audio? Maybe that is what the MPV line does (video-sync=display-refresh)... who knows, I am not a programmer.

With how much processing madvr does to the video, adjusting the timing of it seems like it would avoid having to mess with refreshes so much for people who are really close.

[SamuriHL]

Please be aware that smooth motion is not going to work in the build you are using. That's the biggest bug in 113. You'll get a black screen with no video and wonder what the hell you did wrong. Lol

Also if you want perfect sync of audio and video then decode the audio with lav audio. Then you can use reclock or some players line jriver have video clock settings. Personally I'll take the frame hit to keep bitstream audio.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[LordX2]

Definitely agree - bitstream for sure.

Also agree on the 1 frame per hour hit. Just figured since I DEEP dove into the HDR tone mapping, if I could solve the frame drop too then great. If not, oh well!

[Greenhorn]

First, thank you so much for all the help these last few days - it really helped a ton with some of the other issues I had!

I know why the frame has to drop - just wish that dropped frame could be one of the ones presented in advance, so I didn't see it on screen.

What about resampling the video itself then to match the audio? Maybe that is what the MPV line does (video-sync=display-refresh)... who knows, I am not a programmer.

With how much processing madvr does to the video, adjusting the timing of it seems like it would avoid having to mess with refreshes so much for people who are really close.

IIRC display resample:

1) adjusts video playback speed up to 1% to get an even/no-remainder divisor of your refresh rate, if it's possible

2) resamples audio to match, as best it can

3) periodically resamples audio a further 1% (of the 1%, I think-- total 1.01%) to try and adjust for clock drift

although it seemed kinda fragile when I was trying to migrate my HTPC setup over to mpv for a bit. Would routinely get 3-5 dropped frames to per hour despite all other stats (at least as measured by mpv) being perfect. Would be nice to have a similar feature in madVR, but I don't know if it'd really be possible outside of a monolithic software architecture like mpv has.

[tzr916]

What madvr version and options, or nvidia drivers work best to eliminate (or minimize) FSE black screen?

madVR v0.92.17 (JriverMC)
nVidia driver v456.71
GTX1660Ti 6GB
HDMI from PC to Denon to 4k Sony Tv

After 2.5yrs my GTX1060 died (in warranty RMA'ed), so decided good time to upgrade slightly to 1660Ti, update driver, and try FSE. Wow, this setup looks great! (when it works)

Using JriverMC for watching Live Tv and recorded shows (ts files), that are mixture of 1080p or 720p mpeg2 or h264, USA ATSC broadcast and cable. Upscaling everything to 2160p60.

With FSE enabled, about 1 out of 5 times, when starting live tv or file playback, the Tv screen stays all black, sound plays to AVR (bitstream). Only way to correct it, is to stop playback and re-start it. Once FSE locks in, the screen never goes black again, until starting a new video or changing tv channel. Channel surfing is out of the question.

Thanks for any help/comments :)

[VBB]

The best answer is, don't use FSE. Use FS windowed instead. If you absolutely must use FSE, right-click on your media player shortcut/executable -> Properties -> Compatibility -> check "Disable fullscreen optimizations".

[Ænz]

Hi. I have been trying desperately to get beyond the dropped frame every 4.50 min. with kodi DS Player. I can get acceptable results with madVR custom display mode or Custom resolution utility. But only in MPC-HC64. Nothing I do has any effect on DS Player. I need bitstreaming of audio for OCD, but atmos and dtsX as well.

Does anyone with nvidia gtx use DSplayer and get around this?

[VBB]

Use one of the newer 456.xx drivers. They took the drops from every 4.5 minutes to once every 1.05 hours.

[Ænz]

Use one of the newer 456.xx drivers. They took the drops from every 4.5 minutes to once every 1.05 hours.

I have tried the very newest drivers as well. They still give me dropped frame every 4.50 min!?

[mark0077]

Guys, I have had awful trouble getting madVR to play nicely with my system when it comes to HDR playback. I have the following setup. If anyone could help it would be greatly appreciated.

GPU: GTX 980 with 456.71 drivers
Display: LG C9 65"
madVR: latest beta with the hdr tone mapping section
Player: Latest beta mpc-be
Windows HDR Setting: Off
Nvidia Display Mode: 3840 x 2160 x 23Hz (any hz reproduces the issues). YCbCr444 Limited, 8bpc

madVR / LAV Filters play SDR flawlessly as they always have. With the LG C9 it is well documented that at least in SDR mode, it shows a lot less banding in YCbCr444 8 bpc mode which I have found to be very true, which is what I intend to use for all content for now. The following issues don't happen in RGB Full range mode, only YCbCr444 Limited mode.

So the problems start when playing HDR content with madVR, the following two issues happen.

Note: I have bought numerous brands of HDMI cable including two brands of HDMI 2.1 cables, even though I know the GTX 980 cannot use them to their full extent. So to me on my fourth cable from HDMI 2.0 to 2.1 across numerous brands, I think I can say I have ruled that out.

1) madVR hdr set to "passthrough HDR to display" with "send HDR metadata to the display".
When madVR starts, and the HDR icon appears at the top right of the LG display, the screen goes almost completely green (I know it sounds like a cable, but believe me, it must be something else). When I return out of HDR mode (close the player) it returns to normal, the desktop is no longer green.

When I switch my display to HDR mode from anything else, the a) HDRSwitch tool, from b) Windows HDR settings or c) from games, this green screen / tint doesn't appear. Only when triggered via madVR does it happen.

Can it be sending something else in the "send HDR metadata to the display" that for some reason conflicts with YCbCr 444 and is not meant for that mode?

As mentioned, this doesn't occur in RGB Full range mode, the display never goes any strange colors in that mode. It can do 60hz RGB 8-bit without issues, albeit with the extra banding everyone knows about with these screens.

2) madVR hdr set to "tone map HDR using pixel shaders".
When madVR starts, it obviously leaves the screen in SDR mode, which is as expected. The image shown now looks good (not green) when in windowed mode. When I double click the screen and go fullscreen (not full screen exclusive, just windowed fullscreen), the image goes almost completely black. I can just about see the brightest content on screen. To note here, when this happens, the Ctrl-J content/output shows exactly the same details before/after.

Something as basic as right clicking the display, when in fullscreen, again triggers the image to show the proper black levels, and the Ctrl-J output still remains the same, even the "D3D11 fullscreen windowed (8-bit)" string. When turning off the right click menu, the image again returns to almost completely black, although I can see the shapes moving around.

When I switch off "use Direct3D 11 for presentation" in the general settings, this behaviour stops. D3D9 doesn't seem to show this second issue. Do you think this means its an NVidia issue/madVR issue or something configured wrong on my side thats affecting D3D11.

Again this second issue doesn't happen with RGB Full range mode, even in Direct D3D11.

[VBB]

Mark, I've had the same experience with YCbCr and the green tint. This happened after installing one of the 456.xx drivers, so I would say it is an Nvidia bug. One of several that still need fixing. My solution was to switch to RGB full, but set the TV to limited and madVR to 16-235. This works if all you do is consume media, and (for me, at least) there is no obvious panel-caused banding in SDR. I haven't watched much HDR content lately, but from recent testing, the banding in HDR (with PC mode, of course) is not as bad as I remember it. So, it's either that, or switch to normal HDMI mode for HDR.

[Asmodian]

I know why the frame has to drop - just wish that dropped frame could be one of the ones presented in advance, so I didn't see it on screen.

You see every frame. Frames presented in advance are all displayed.

You need to skip a real frame of the video at that time in order to get back in sync with the audio. If you simply reduced the number of frames presented in advance when you should have dropped one the viewer will still be one frame ahead; it would not fix the audio sync issue.

But one frame an hour isn't bad. I think you have a very good setup now. :)

What about resampling the video itself then to match the audio? Maybe that is what the MPV line does (video-sync=display-refresh)... who knows, I am not a programmer.

This requires resampling the audio to keep sync, hence the need for Reclock or Jriver's Video Clock. The reason is the total play time, it the same reason we need to drop frames but now the other way around. If you speed up the video to match the slightly faster refresh rate your audio would now need to be slightly faster too; that means resampling or something which would break bit streaming at a minimum.

The audio has a specific number of samples per second just like the video has a specific number of frames per second. If you change either one you need to adjust the other to match or they will drift out of sync over time. Skipping or adding audio samples is usually more noticeable than skipping or adding frames and resampling audio has its own issues so this is not a tradeoff free fix.

You cannot simply play the audio samples slightly faster either, definitely not with bit streaming. I haven't seen DACs that run at dynamic sample rates, the audio needs to be 48kHz, 41.1kHz, 96kHz, etc. It does seem like it should be possible though.. can we do Variable Sample Rate for audio like VRR for video? :)

[LordX2]

Once again, thank you for the detailed responses. I totally understand now with bitstreamed audio why this wont work.

I was reading the mpv player manual, and they have an option for 'desync'. Essentially allowing the video and audio to just play untouched.

Now, I get that this will 'drift' over a 2 hour movie, but with the settings so close (e.g. 1 frame drop in an hour) - I wonder if I would even notice?

Is there a way to 'desync' madvr? Just let it play both and not drop a frame ever?

[chros]

Try out these timings (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998) if you use hdmi out.

[toki]

So I want to use ColourSpace to create 3D Luts for SDR and HDR. Can I do this with an external TPG, and if so, what would be the best way to go about this? I want to use the external generator because I read that madVR does have something weird going on when using it as a TPG.

[SamuriHL]

can we do Variable Sample Rate for audio like VRR for video? :)

Man wouldn't THAT be nice!! Best of all worlds in that case.

[NoTechi]

Out of curiosity now that both gpu players have their cards announced it looks like regardless which one you get there will be lots of power for madvr to play with. I am just asking myself since my main use case is to watch 4k movies and some life TV with madvr and I am using a 5700XT if an upgrade would be even worth it just looking at that use case.

Looking at madvr as it is atm and having lets say a 3080 or RX6800 which settings could I use additionally while watching 4k movies where I would see a difference beside the obvious increase of the quality of NGU upscaling alghorithms?

I would guess there is not too much headroom for image improvements with madvr in current state using a highend card if we just look at watching 4k movies (beside rare 60Hz stuff).

I most likely will get one anyhow at some point for gaming and the nerd factor to always get some fancy new stuff :p

NoTechi

[SamuriHL]

One other thing these new cards bring to the table is hardware AV1 decoding which will be nice.

[VBB]

So I want to use ColourSpace to create 3D Luts for SDR and HDR. Can I do this with an external TPG, and if so, what would be the best way to go about this? I want to use the external generator because I read that madVR does have something weird going on when using it as a TPG.

For a LUT created for madVR I would recommend the free DisplayCAL (https://displaycal.net/) over ColourSpace. There is no issue using madTPG this way. A LUT for HDR is not advisable due to the dynamic nature of HDR.

[LordX2]

I had to use CRU to remove the 2160p24/30/60 resolutions (which also removes the 23, 29, and 59) and then add them back via madVR. Once I did that I was able to manipulate the timings. I've also had to hit the reset gpu button in madVR at times before I could change to more optimized timings of those resolutions.

Are you using the most current nvidia drivers? This worked for those?

[JaylumX]

For a LUT created for madVR I would recommend the free DisplayCAL (https://displaycal.net/) over ColourSpace. There is no issue using madTPG this way. A LUT for HDR is not advisable due to the dynamic nature of HDR.

While I was not successful in creating a HDR 3DLUT for madVR (It looked like the rear end of a mentally ill pig) I did calibrate my display with HDR in mind using madTPG via displayCal.

I first maximised my displays backlight in windows and via the display as well as disabling any energy saving modes that my display had active - if your display uses dynamic tone mapping then I advise turning it off if you can otherwise calibrate your display in the highest brightness setting in SDR mode - and when displayCal generated the ICM profile, I added it as advanced colour so it only becomes active in HDR mode only.

I then set madVR to "use windows overlay".

I use a 3DLUT generated in displayCal to my display to watch SDR material (Spyder5Pro) while the Advanced colour with "use windows overlay" takes care of HDR.

[nevcairiel]

can we do Variable Sample Rate for audio like VRR for video? :)

Thats basically what ReClock et al do.

[SamuriHL]

Not for bitstreaming though. And yes I understand why. Just saying it would be awesome if we could.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[toki]

For a LUT created for madVR I would recommend the free DisplayCAL (https://displaycal.net/) over ColourSpace. There is no issue using madTPG this way. A LUT for HDR is not advisable due to the dynamic nature of HDR.Thank you for your reply. Either way, should I use 10% window with Local Dimming off or 10ABL with Local Dimming on?

[LordX2]

Also, I am able to select 12Bit under my display if I use the 'nvidia settings'. Still able to keep Full Range RGB as well.

Is this recommended? Or stick with 8bit?

[VBB]

@toki - I haven't calibrated back-lit TVs in quite a while, but I'd probably go with normal 10% and dimming off. You could ask about your particular display in the calibration (https://www.avsforum.com/forums/display-calibration.139/) section of the AVS forum. Ted will be happy to help you :)

@LordX2 - Best to stick with 8-bit + madVR's excellent dithering, but you could always put up some gradient patterns (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/10-bit-gradient-test-patterns.2269338/#post-40197906) to see what looks better.

[zind1703]

One other thing these new cards bring to the table is hardware AV1 decoding which will be nice.


What gives you AV1 today?
And does anyone know when the H266 encoder will arrive?
:)

[huhn]

youtube does for quite a while now.

[LordX2]

Asmodian:

For smooth motion - does it double the rendering time since it is doubling the frame output?

Do you still have your display set to 23.976?

And does it have the dreaded 'soap opera' effect?

PS - I know beta 113 is not compatible with smooth motion - just asking for when this is fixed in future releases.

[VBB]

I can answer those questions, since I've used smooth motion for a long time (currently taking a break). SM blends frames, but it does not alter the motion, unlike interpolation. There is no soap opera effect. For SM to be effective, you'll want to set the frame rate as high as possible. Like As said, it's even better at 120Hz, but it's definitely fine at 60Hz. Nobody knows when SM will be fixed. Just use 112b (http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure112b.zip) for now.

A note: SM is best used with OLEDs due to their inherent super fast response time. The slight blur SM creates helps with the sometimes jarring stutter of low frame rate content. Since you're using a projector, you might not gain anything from SM, except zero drops/repeats.

As far as performance goes, SM does add a substantial hit, so you might have to adjust some of your settings.

[Asmodian]

I entirely agree with VBB, but adding my own explanations too. :)

It doesn't necessarily double the rendering time but it can increase the overhead for presenting frames a lot. On my system it outputs five times the number of frames (120 from 23.976). Smooth motion is nearly the last step so it does not increase the number of frames for most of madVR's processing but dithering is after smooth motion. Because of this it is very helpful to switch to ordered dithering when using smooth motion. I like ordered dithering on my OLEDs anyway but I liked ED more on plasma or LCD. Still, ordered dithering is very high quality while being much faster than error diffusion.

I do not have my display set to 23.976 Hz, it is always at 120 Hz. At very low refresh rates smooth motion is bad and when refresh rate matches the frame rate smooth motion should not be used. The refresh rate needs to be above 2x the frame rate for smooth motion to output good quality.

No dreaded soap opera effect.

Have you seen the diagram in the third post of the link in my signature? It is helpful when trying to understand what is going on.
https://res.cloudinary.com/asmodian/image/upload/v1570099552/madVR/madVR_UHD_HDR_Example.png

[huhn]

smooth motion only outputs about 48 different frames a sec at 120 HZ with a 23p/24p source a lot of frames which are identical(so it's doing nothing except for the first one) and 1 blended in between when it overlaps with he next frame.

you can use MPC HC with statics and madVR using windowed old path to get the rough numbers. at 47 fps it'S only slowing rising. there is a "chance" for smooth to do nothing and it is not applied on the first source frame so the number is a little lower then the actual number presented.

maybe worth testing if madVR is in this case more efficient with dithering because it is true not outputting more frames.

roughly you are outputting double the frame rate when the display refreshrate is double or more.

[SamuriHL]

What gives you AV1 today?
And does anyone know when the H266 encoder will arrive?
:)

Netflix. :) Youtube. More will come once there's more devices out there that support it.

[VBB]

The way I see it, at 100/120Hz the only benefit of SM is the zero frame drop/repeat. Everything goes into 100/119/120 evenly, so even pull-down is no longer needed for judder-free motion. I would set madVR to only switch between those three frequencies. Am I wrong?

[huhn]

sounds good. makes frame interpolation impossible i see this as a bonus.

[VBB]

A short and non-confrontational reply from huhn is really all I could ask for ;)

[Asmodian]

smooth motion only outputs about 48 different frames a sec at 120 HZ with a 23p/24p source a lot of frames which are identical(so it's doing nothing except for the first one) and 1 blended in between when it overlaps with he next frame.

Ah, good point, I was only thinking about frames presented when I wrote that (display at 23.976 Hz v.s. 120 Hz). madVR has to dither and calibrate a lot fewer frames than it presents, even with smooth motion, and it always presents the same number of frames at the same refresh rate (D3D11 and present every v-sync).

Internally smooth motion can output both frames that will be presented multiple times and frames that won't be. I just never think about it. :o

maybe worth testing if madVR is in this case more efficient with dithering because it is true not outputting more frames.

Hmm, I do notice a much bigger hit from ED v.s. ordered dithering when smooth motion is enabled but I have not quantified it. It could be a simple 2x.

[huhn]

i take the static information and the description from madshi into account to get to my results that doesn't mean i'm correct.

[Andy o]

So that was a bust on the 3070 attempt. I've been using nvidia for a while (GTX 1650S) mainly because of auto HDR switching and G-Sync, but the former is working with AMD as well? Also with madVR's frame rate calibration? Since the new AMDs will have VRR I think I'll be okay with the 6800 if these issues are solved.

[SamuriHL]

Don't get me started on trying to buy a 30x0 card. I've been after a 3080 since they came out so I can crank up some settings in a couple of my madvr profiles. I looked at the 3070 this morning but the situation hasn't improved with online retailers... Was able to add to cart but was gone before I could checkout. We've discussed it in the hardware thread. The AMD cards do look compelling.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[LordX2]

Don't get me started on trying to buy a 30x0 card. I've been after a 3080 since they came out so I can crank up some settings in a couple of my madvr profiles. I looked at the 3070 this morning but the situation hasn't improved with online retailers... Was able to add to cart but was gone before I could checkout. We've discussed it in the hardware thread. The AMD cards do look compelling.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I am going to be building a new htpc soon for another location. Could you elaborate a bit for me on the AMD stuff?

[huhn]

they have on paper competing GPU it will take 3 more weeks before we know for sure and they get independently tested to confirm there claims and maybe even longer before we hear about issues with madVR there is something already showing up for 3000 series but as always stay calm.

[Klaus1189]

What is showing up already for rtx30 madvr related?

[huhn]

there is one case with overblown HDR just chill for now.

edit: BTW. you complained about low YT quality right? there seems to be a major issue with the current AMD driver and web browser.
try this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRUrlZFty3A it looks horrific on my system if you load the same stream into let'S mpc-be it fine.
this is my last word about this in this topic if you want to discuss this in more detail feel free to do so in the driver thread.

[Manni]

What is showing up already for rtx30 madvr related?

10bits support over HDMI, which is good news for those with a 40gb/s limited HDMI 2.1 TV set.

The 4K120 bug doesn't really concern madVR users, unless they use smooth motion at 4K I guess. The workaround seems to be to disable VRR and ALMM.

Some reported issues with HDR, but they have been very vague so I'm not sure what they are.

[Klaus1189]

If you know more please let me know on the driver thread. If there is a workaround or anything new to last recommended driver please let me also know.

[Manni]

If you know more please let me know on the driver thread. If there is a workaround or anything new to last recommended driver please let me also know.

Nothing more than above at this stage.

I'll know more when I get my hands on a 3xxx series...

EDIT: Just managed to pre-order a Zotac 3090 Trinity with a delivery date of November 10... We'll see if that one will get cancelled like the EVGA one that never arrived...

[toki]

Nothing more than above at this stage.

I'll know more when I get my hands on a 3xxx series...

EDIT: Just managed to pre-order a Zotac 3090 Trinity with a delivery date of November 10... We'll see if that one will get cancelled like the EVGA one that never arrived...3090 so nice, lucky

[JNW]

Asmodian:

For smooth motion - does it double the rendering time since it is doubling the frame output?

Do you still have your display set to 23.976?

And does it have the dreaded 'soap opera' effect?

PS - I know beta 113 is not compatible with smooth motion - just asking for when this is fixed in future releases.

1. No (It will use more processing but not what your thinking)
2. Probably or a multiple of depending on content
3. No

It's not a interpolation feature and will not introduce a soap opera effect. Read this Wiki https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/MadVR_Expert_Guide

Congratulations on the the CEDIA award madshi. What a year. Well deserved.