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el Filou
8th February 2020, 10:36
Depends on your TV. Using madVR tone mapping while still outputting HDR with a real peak nits value lower than your TV can let you bypass its tone mapping if it's doing things not to your liking. As always, test and compare.
lanzorg
8th February 2020, 12:07
Why did madshi leave Doom9? It's terribly sad. Maybe we're too poor to test his new algorithms.
Andy o
8th February 2020, 12:38
Depends on your TV. Using madVR tone mapping while still outputting HDR with a real peak nits value lower than your TV can let you bypass its tone mapping if it's doing things not to your liking. As always, test and compare.

Yeah, I'm happy with the pass through option. I don't really care much about 100% color accuracy, I'm easily pleased with correct black/white levels and a non-obviously-crappy gamma curve. I think I'm set until the HDMI 2.1 graphics cards come out and then hopefully it will be a seamless upgrade to 4k 119Hz/100Hz for all content.
WuNgUn
8th February 2020, 13:52
Depends on your TV. Using madVR tone mapping while still outputting HDR with a real peak nits value lower than your TV can let you bypass its tone mapping if it's doing things not to your liking. As always, test and compare.Personally, I feel like it's cheating when you do this...
Like when listening to a CD, but adjusting the tone levels to your liking instead of listening to it the way it was produced.
Of course, if it's a driver or TV issue, well....
WuNgUn
8th February 2020, 13:56
The latest HDR test build is absolutely stunning. Truly a work of art.Where do I find the beta? I don't see it on the forum....
Is it the MadMeasure zip? Do I just copy and replace the MadVR files with these ones? Rerun install.bat? Still says version 92.17
el Filou
8th February 2020, 14:13
Personally, I feel like it's cheating when you do this...
Like when listening to a CD, but adjusting the tone levels to your liking instead of listening to it the way it was produced.
Of course, if it's a driver or TV issue, well....I get what you mean but it's different in this case because at the start there was always gonna be displays that wouldn't reach the peak nits in the standard, and tone mapping has to be used in that case. It's more a choice of what to do when the image has missing parts because there is simply no way your hardware can render them, rather than globally change the way the image was produced because you like it better your way.
Andy o
8th February 2020, 14:37
Personally, I feel like it's cheating when you do this...
Like when listening to a CD, but adjusting the tone levels to your liking instead of listening to it the way it was produced.
Of course, if it's a driver or TV issue, well....

What affects sound the most by far is your speakers and room. You cannot listen to the CD "the way it was produced" unless you go to the studio room where it was produced. That's what EQ is for. EQ actually serves to somewhat correct for the speaker and room "distortions" and go back closer to the original (or whatever else you like, who's to say how someone else listens to music anyway).
WuNgUn
8th February 2020, 15:13
What affects sound the most by far is your speakers and room. You cannot listen to the CD "the way it was produced" unless you go to the studio room where it was produced. That's what EQ is for. EQ actually serves to somewhat correct for the speaker and room "distortions" and go back closer to the original (or whatever else you like, who's to say how someone else listens to music anyway).Yes, room correction/listening space matters...as does viewing space.
But when you start tweaking the output to what you think is better, that's highly subjective....
From a picture perspective, it's probably not as (possibly) detrimental...?

Just view testing the movie "Midway", the Pearl Harbor attack scenes, with and without tone mapping...of course, it's largely CG, but the flames, for example, are VERY strong. Maybe overly dramatic to some, but perfectly acceptable to others.
But now, toggling on-off tone mapping, I'm not sure where a happy middle ground might be! Lol
SamuriHL
8th February 2020, 15:27
Where do I find the beta? I don't see it on the forum....
Is it the MadMeasure zip? Do I just copy and replace the MadVR files with these ones? Rerun install.bat? Still says version 92.17Yes the link is on the other forum thread for 113 test build. No need to run the bat if you ran it already. Just overlay the files and you're good.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Alexkral
8th February 2020, 15:32
Personally, I feel like it's cheating when you do this...
Like when listening to a CD, but adjusting the tone levels to your liking instead of listening to it the way it was produced.
Of course, if it's a driver or TV issue, well....
I have the same feeling about dynamic target nits. After all, the films were mastered with a fixed diffuse white level, so changing it on a scene basis doesn't seem like a good idea if you want to respect director's intent. On the other hand I guess that the distribution of brightness and contrast will be much better for projectors and displays with very limited peak brightness, and well, that distribution is completely changed anyway when converting to SDR.
SamuriHL
8th February 2020, 15:35
I don't know if I want to know if the test build will improve what I already have, after tweaking for weeks towards something I'm good with. I'm just passing through HDR, so I (think?) I don't need tone mapping?Passthrough is already tone mapping since no display hits the required nit level to avoid it. And what you get in that case is static tone mapping unless your tv has some kind of dynamic algorithm built in. But even if it does it can't compare to what madvr is doing. It's measuring each frame and dynamically tone mapping it using a histogram algorithm. The affect is something like Dolby vision. On my calibrated c8 the quality of madvr tone mapped video is a site to behold. Unless your tv can do 4000 nits, you really do want to experiment with madvr dynamic tone mapping. The caveat is that because they are test builds there's a lot of options to set right now. But the experienced users tend to post their settings which serve as a good starting point. Eventually the options will go away as the builds mature into a release build. But I can tell you... it's worth the effort.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
QBhd
8th February 2020, 16:00
Agreed.

I just watched Zombieland (the original yes I hadn't watched it yet) and madVR OSD said the movie was 10000 nits... there is no way it would have looked as good as it did with 113 test build if I had just left passthrough and used the LG "Dynamic" tonemapping. Another movie I watched recently was Gemini Man (60fps) and for that I needed to turn off madVR's tonemapping and use passthrough. There is no way my GPU could handle it. There were many scenes that I know HSTM would have made better since after watching many movies now with it, I can easily spot where it would have been an improvement with that particular title.

It's well worth the minor effort to setup. And like said above, many users post their settings as a starting point.

QB
DMU
8th February 2020, 16:25
SamuriHL
Could you clarify whether it is necessary to activate the option "output video in HDR format" in HSTM in case of viewing on C8 for example?
SamuriHL
8th February 2020, 16:36
I would. If you convert to sdr on an lg OLED, you're limiting the max nits you can output. By outputting HDR you can set the real display nits to ~700 which gives you a really good range to play with. Sdr will max out ~400 nits if you max the brightness and OLED settings but you risk running into abl doing that. Make sure to disable lg dynamic tone mapping in the settings for hdr.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Alexkral
8th February 2020, 16:36
MadVR continues (and will continue, since this is what it considers best quality) giving priority to detail in the highlights at the cost of luminance. So it does all kind of fancy stuff to give the highlights the maximum possible brightness, but that maximum is always limited by the need to preserve detail.

Personally, I can live perfectly without so much level of detail, especially when the highlights are most of the time flashes that one doesn't have time to analyze, and for which the luminance largely determines their impact
SamuriHL
8th February 2020, 16:40
The latest builds contain curves that somewhat balance that equation if you choose the right one.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Siso
8th February 2020, 18:04
I'm wondering about the nvidia power management options in the control panel. Just tested the 3 modes, I read you guys recommend using "adaptive" for madvr, but in my test it acts like optimal power. With the 3 modes I get best results with prefer maximum performance - ~ 42% GPU usage and rendering times ~ 17 ms. With the other two modes - optimal power and adaptive I get ~ 54% GPU usage and rendering times ~ 22,30 ms...Why adaptive is still recommended?
huhn
8th February 2020, 18:07
because you would be wasting power with the other option. with optimal nvidia may saves so much power that it may just drop frames forever.
Siso
8th February 2020, 18:59
because you would be wasting power with the other option. with optimal nvidia may saves so much power that it may just drop frames forever.

OK I understand about the wasting power, but adaptive doesn't make that much of a sense. Why raise the rendering times and the GPU usage, when you can use your card more efficiently. And I guess in adaptive mode it won't drop any frames like optimal power, right?
huhn
8th February 2020, 19:56
adaptive is not known to drop frames if you need the processing power you will get it with adaptive.

not sure if you understand rendertimes and GPU usage correct in this case.
ryrynz
8th February 2020, 21:04
Yeah render times are not a benchmark.. Stick with adaptive and move on with your life.
nsnhd
9th February 2020, 03:12
The latest HDR test build is absolutely stunning. Truly a work of art.

Actually, for me personally madVR has saved a lot of money. Instead of HDR display, I bought a 4K SDR monitor with much less price and bigger screen . And my SDR projector becomes refreshed again for HDR movies. Many thanks to Madshi.
el Filou
9th February 2020, 04:31
Why raise the rendering times and the GPU usage, when you can use your card more efficiently.Because the clocks are lower while the GPU load is still sufficiently low that you don't get frame drops. Lower clocks with higher GPU usage is more efficient.
jojo54000
9th February 2020, 09:17
Actually, for me personally madVR has saved a lot of money. Instead of HDR display, I bought a 4K SDR monitor with much less price and bigger screen . And my SDR projector becomes refreshed again for HDR movies. Many thanks to Madshi.

So, MadVR dynamic HDR is better than HDR10+/Dolby Vison ?
Siso
9th February 2020, 10:10
Because the clocks are lower while the GPU load is still sufficiently low that you don't get frame drops. Lower clocks with higher GPU usage is more efficient.

Thanks for the explanation, I will leave it to adaptive then. :goodpost:
jkauff
9th February 2020, 11:09
So, MadVR dynamic HDR is better than HDR10+/Dolby Vison ?
My TV supports Dolby Vision, but not HDR10+. To my eyes, madVR dynamic HDR makes most plain old HDR10 sources look at least as good as my Dolby Vision sources.
jojo54000
9th February 2020, 12:07
My TV supports Dolby Vision, but not HDR10+. To my eyes, madVR dynamic HDR makes most plain old HDR10 sources look at least as good as my Dolby Vision sources.

Great! so the hdr10 + / dolby vision becomes useless, as much to keep only the hdr10 metadata static?
huhn
9th February 2020, 12:39
it's not that simple if dolby vision could be decoded it would still be better and it would be even better if dolby vision just disappears and the same image is just encoded into an PQ HDR stream...
jkauff
9th February 2020, 13:53
I haven’t been following the avsforum thread, so I have no idea how madshi is going about getting the results I see in the current test build. Maybe someone here who has been following that thread can provide more information.
Yog_Sothoth
9th February 2020, 14:40
Hello again. Is there a place where I can ask a question about madvr, like some forum maybe? I have a serious problem, which many people have probably had as well, so if there is such a place, someone should help me, I think.
tp4tissue
9th February 2020, 16:03
Hello again. Is there a place where I can ask a question about madvr, like some forum maybe? I have a serious problem, which many people have probably had as well, so if there is such a place, someone should help me, I think.

Bitch, spit it out, what do you want.. :devil::devil::devil:
huhn
9th February 2020, 16:16
well your provided information are very limited so.

so i guess the osd screen is just from madVR been paused on a at best "questionable" image host? and you have some jitter issues.
first of be more accurate would be a start.
a screen from not paused madVR the GPU i question with driver and what you really mean as the problem.

so the "GPU" you are using is an HD 4000 on windows 10 yes?
ryrynz
10th February 2020, 07:11
Is there a place where I can ask a question about madvr?

Seems you found it.
madjock
10th February 2020, 10:18
He has, but unsure if its a language barrier or not but he has been asked 3 times now for extra information.
Yog_Sothoth
10th February 2020, 18:11
He has, but unsure if its a language barrier or not but he has been asked 3 times now for extra information.
I've counted 1 time, by huhn. Please, show me the other 2.
Seems you found it.
What makes you think so? I've asked a simple question about madvr, and It seems I'm being ignored here for some reason.
well your provided information are very limited so.

so i guess the osd screen is just from madVR been paused on a at best "questionable" image host? and you have some jitter issues.
first of be more accurate would be a start.
a screen from not paused madVR the GPU i question with driver and what you really mean as the problem.

so the "GPU" you are using is an HD 4000 on windows 10 yes?
You are correct. Here's a screenshot with not paused madvr: https://fastpic.ru/view/111/2020/0210/_03ec8a1bcded844e6b1572125683b073.png.html, and here's a video: https://www30.zippyshare.com/v/tYSKLZjL/file.html. Does that look like jitter? I don't know what else to add here. As I said, I left the default settings, tried different decoders, I've installed the latest drivers, codecs, windows.
Bitch, spit it out, what do you want.. :devil::devil::devil:
Pretty much what I said. Or should I presume that this is the forum I'm looking for?
ryrynz
11th February 2020, 06:49
What makes you think so?


I don't think so, I know so, but it seems you've approached the forum without simply stating the issue.

Try D3D9 instead of D3D11.
madjock
11th February 2020, 08:22
I've counted 1 time, by huhn. Please, show me the other 2.

https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1897999&postcount=58491

https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1898469&postcount=58526
Yog_Sothoth
11th February 2020, 19:01
I don't think so, I know so, but it seems you've approached the forum without simply stating the issue.

What do you mean by "stating the issue"? Wasn't my issue, that I stated, enough?
Try D3D9 instead of D3D11.
How to do that?
https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1897999&postcount=58491

https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1898469&postcount=58526
That was the same dude, who I gave the details to when he managed to use quotation properly, which he ignored, which fact you ignored for some reason as well.
huhn
11th February 2020, 20:19
i asked for the GPU driver and i got "lasted" so nothing i don't even know if it is from windows update or at installed by you.
please share the driver with us and if you installed it using windows update or not.

i asked you to upload an image of the OSD and you did but for some reason it has to be a freaking porn site...

are you even using an HD 4000 i'm guessing here and i don't want to guess.

which windows version is that you have a composition rate the current release version doesn't seem to do that with the current WDDM model.
How to do that?
rendering -> general settings -> uncheck "use Direct3D 11 for..."
Yog_Sothoth
12th February 2020, 00:24
i asked for the GPU driver and i got "lasted" so nothing i don't even know if it is from windows update or at installed by you.
please share the driver with us and if you installed it using windows update or not.
Just the latest driver from the manufacturer, ver. 10.18.10.5100, I downloaded it from their site.

i asked you to upload an image of the OSD and you did but for some reason it has to be a freaking porn site...
I don't know what you're talking about, it's just a popular image hosting.
are you even using an HD 4000 i'm guessing here and i don't want to guess.
Yes, as I told you before, you were correct, I indeed use this graphic chip. I also tried using just the CPU and different hardware decoders.
which windows version is that you have a composition rate the current release version doesn't seem to do that with the current WDDM model.

I'm not sure what half of what you said mean, but I indeed use the current Windows version: Win 10 Pro x64, ver. 1909.
rendering -> general settings -> uncheck "use Direct3D 11 for..."
Didn't help.
ryrynz
12th February 2020, 00:32
Didn't help.

Try running msconfig and choose 'selective startup' and untick 'load startup items' if that doesn't change anything reset madVR to default settings with restore default settings.bat in the install directory.
huhn
12th February 2020, 01:32
I don't know what you're talking about, it's just a popular image hosting.
can you please take a different image page.

Yes, as I told you before, you were correct, I indeed use this graphic chip. I also tried using just the CPU and different hardware decoders.

that's not how this works. madVR runs on the GPU. if you take a software decoder or not doesn't matter.
I'm not sure what half of what you said mean, but I indeed use the current Windows version: Win 10 Pro x64, ver. 1909.
then i guess telling you that there seems to be a major issues with clock deviations doesn't help you too?
what audio renderer is used and what output plz be accurate?
line 8 on the OSD shouldn't be in the secs try to change the audio volume to make sure this is not just an odd "accident" the mouse wheel up and down using mpc-hc after you see the line on the OSD is enough.
plz check Vram usage with the taskmgmt.
tp4tissue
12th February 2020, 07:10
@Yogs

the composition rate should be right, it's 25hz interlaced, so you set to either 50p or 25p output, in this case it's 50p.

I still don't understand the description of the problem though.

WHAT SPECIFICALLY is the problem. I can't see the video.

Type out a description. is it stuttering, are the frames delayed, is the color wrong, what is wrong with the playback.

You've used the word Jitter, What is your understanding of jitter, as in what do you think jitter is suppose to be, and how does that picture demonstrate your idea of jitter.

I ask, because this forum's idea of jitter couldn't possibly be photographed/screenshoted/ or videotaped without a specifically timed testpattern.

Are you trying to explain what looks like motion-blur ?

As in, the guy is moving too fast for the exposure time of the camera, and he looks stretched out and blurred ? Is that what you're asking ?
ryrynz
12th February 2020, 07:28
I still don't understand the description of the problem though.


Presentation glitches, dropped frames and crap loads of repeated frames for some reason..

https://imgur.com/YbLimh8

If he doesn't have anything else interfering with madVR then it might just be a performance problem.. this is deinterlaced content.
nsnhd
12th February 2020, 07:50
What's the composition rate ? I rarely see it, under which condition it appears in the OSD ?
ryrynz
12th February 2020, 08:10
Composition rate is 50.000hz, condition?
nsnhd
12th February 2020, 08:32
I mean, mostly I don't see it in the madVR OSD (Ctrl-J)
huhn
12th February 2020, 11:40
the composition rate is the rate the desktop runs at this can mismatch with the real frame rate a windows 7 classic. workaround FSE.

this was fixed with windows 8 and the composition rate was gone everything was great except for the start thingy so everyone hated win 8 because this was far worse.

windows 10 had a composition rate witch can mismatch and it had other presentation issue depending on windows version WDDM driver whatever but the start thingy search thingy was broken now and it was total downgrade compared to win 7 but it was a start thingy so everyone loved it so people loved win 10. the FSE workaround doesn't work in windows 10 only overlay is a true fix.
Siso
12th February 2020, 12:46
Isn't windowed overlay, the second best mode to use with madvr?
el Filou
12th February 2020, 13:43
I use windowed fullscreen on Windows 10 and I always have a composition rate that matches refresh rate and no presentation glitches ever so it's definitely not an impossible thing to achieve.

@Yog_Sothoth
1. there is a very large clock deviation: 0,099 i.e. pretty much 0.1% which means at 50 fps you're gonna get a frame drop every 20 seconds as indicated by the OSD. Unfortunately this can have many possible root causes, software or hardware.

2. You have presentation glitches and the present queue isn't full. Has this screenshot been captured after doing Alt+Tab many times or displaying other software over the video? If the solutions presented by the other forumers here don't work, check if any other running programs are using the GPU often (you can see that in Task Manager details), which from my experience can be a source of frequent presentation glitches.