madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Razoola]

The dropped frame numbers I get were consistent and repeatable, presentation glitches varied somewhat, maybe +/-5 over the whole set of testing I did. (that's why I tried each at least twice, and averaged) Going back to those two builds now, I still get the same difference in dropped frames.

The new build posted averages 22/53. As I said, the dropped frames only seem to be initial numbers within the first few seconds of playback, but it seemed strange, so I thought I should mention it. (presentation glitches keep increasing with the default flush settings)

Whatever that small difference is, must be doing something.

Using the "framequeue" build which showed the least number of dropped frames & presentation glitches, and changing the flushing to don't/don't/don't/sleep, I was able to watch a 40 minute 30p@60Hz video without any framedrops/presentation glitches past the first minute, where it climbed to 7/43 and then stayed there to the end.

I need to do extended testing with this using some longer videos (sometimes problems only show up after an hour or so) and with the "maybe fixed" build, but it may be a solution for people that need to run the latest Nvidia drivers. (0.80 seemed fine with these flush settings until I tried longer videos though)

The only way I found to stop presentation glitches (not dropped frames) on my machine is to use flush setting of don't/don't/sleep/don't. Do those settings work for you?

[6233638]

What happens if you enable the option "delay playback until render queue is full"? Shouldn't that take care of those framedrops at the start of playback?Sorry, I added this to my post as you replied:


EDIT: Enabling the "delay playback start until render queue is full" option eliminates these dropped frames at the start as you would expect—the reason I mentioned them is that clearly something was happening to increase them 3x.

More importantly though, this option no longer seems to break DVD playback (off the disc) though presentation glitches still increase for the first minute or so of playback before stopping.

The only way I found to stop presentation glitches (not dropped frames) on my machine is to use flush setting of don't/don't/sleep/don't. Do those settings work for you?This drops my render & present queues from being essentially full, down to 1–3/16, and 0–1/4.

From that brief test, it did stay at 0 dropped frames and 0 presentation glitches, but I'm wary of leaving the queues so low. I suspect that there will be dropped frames/glitches appearing when watching a long video in that state.

I believe you are using a different generation of card though, which is probably why that is the case. (I never had any problems with the new rendering path with my old 9400M based system)

[Plutotype]

Hi madshi,
In one earlier post you promised to post details how to drag a freeze report, because I did report you a MPC-HC freeze using madVR refresh rate changer ( happens not always ) - going from native 60Hz to 23Hz ( 1080p23 setting ) on my VT30 plasma. It happens in both windowed and exclusive mode. I would like to prepare such log for you. Or have you tried to reproduce this in between?
Thanks
Pluto

[madshi]

Hi madshi,
In one earlier post you promised to post details how to drag a freeze report, because I did report you a MPC-HC freeze using madVR refresh rate changer ( happens not always ) - going from native 60Hz to 23Hz ( 1080p23 setting ) on my VT30 plasma. It happens in both windowed and exclusive mode. I would like to prepare such log for you. Or have you tried to reproduce this in between?
The freeze doesn't happen for me. You will be able to create a freeze report with the next madVR build. The current build does not support that yet. I will explain how to create freeze reports in the release notes of the next madVR build.

[SamuelMaki]

Thanks for help guys. Im afraid Ill have to get any affordable device to calibrate my tv for color accuracy. Not cheap though..

BTW, do youy guys have "gamma processing" enabled on madVR. It comes unchecked by default, but wondering if it may improve the final image quality. Im just looking for the picture the most accurate to the source.

I use gamma prosessing...
I have best PQ (my opinion, not scientific;)) when I set "tv is already calibrated" (set there your specs) and then check gamma prosessing and set there what seems to be the best settings... I have these BT.709 and BT.709/601 curve 2.10. Gamma prosessing is pure power curve 2.10... Black level seems fine and I have much better contrast, so I think it is correct settings...

[Plutotype]

I use gamma prosessing...
I have best PQ (my opinion, not scientific;)) when I set "tv is already calibrated" (set there your specs) and then check gamma prosessing and set there what seems to be the best settings... I have these BT.709 and BT.709/601 curve 2.10. Gamma prosessing is pure power curve 2.10... Black level seems fine and I have much better contrast, so I think it is correct settings...

Im using gamma processing as well, to be exact 2.0, because there is no major change in "blackness" in the film material and it makes my Panny VT30 look more bright ( 2012 models should be brighter ). But if I would have a LED LCD or brighter plasma, it would be different situation. Light conditions also play a significant role in this regard. Calibration = dimm/dark room, but this is not always the case. MadVR does indeed a very good job with its built gamma processing.

[Peekstra]

I think some people have this problem sometimes, but not all. You could try disabling aero / desktop composition to see if that makes a difference. You could also try modifying the way your monitors are set up. E.g. move the secondary monitor to the left side of the primary monitor instead of the right side, or something like that. Maybe some fiddling around like that helps?

Disabling aero fixed the problem. :thanks:

[6233638]

Film gamma is 2.40.

Depending on your TV, it's probably not even 2.20 to begin with (or 2.2 if it's got a good film preset/THX mode) so you are further reducing the image contrast by using madVR to lower the gamma.

[Plutotype]

Film gamma is 2.40.

Depending on your TV, it's probably not even 2.20 to begin with (or 2.2 if it's got a good film preset/THX mode) so you are further reducing the image contrast by using madVR to lower the gamma.

I know that. Will try to be fair against the filmmakers as soon I will get my hands on a new TV set, which should be brighter and I wont need any further gamma or brightness adjustments if properly calibrated ( looking at Panna WT50 or VT50 currently ).

[pankov]

When using madVR to display a movie on a secondary monitor using the Windows desktop on the primary screen becomes (almost) impossible. For example: some windows appear semi transparent and can't be clicked on with the mouse. This makes the computer unusable for other things when someone else is watching a movie.

Will a future version of madVR resolve this or is this a limitation of the hardware, OS or drivers (Win7X64, AMD 6950, ZP811)?

I have the exact same problem. I noticed that it only happens when madvr is in exclusive mode. If I bring it out of it either by showing the popup menu of the player or other part of the GUI all windows on the primary monitor redraw and work correctly. I'm using Aero and I have my secondary monitor positioned in the bottom right corner of the primary.
I'll try to move it arround and report back.

[madshi]

Is it a new problem with v0.80, or did it "always" occur?

[pankov]

What happens if you enable the option "delay playback until render queue is full"? Shouldn't that take care of those framedrops at the start of playback?

Madshi,
did you manage to reproduce and fix the problem that bLight reported about this option? If you don't remember what I'm talking about I'll try to dig it out .... it was about the playback staying paused after a few qick stream changes.

[pankov]

Is it a new problem with v0.80, or did it "always" occur?

It was there for a very long time .... may be more than half an year.
I'm not at the PC right now but if you want me I can test a few versions back and report.

[madshi]

Finding out which version introduced a problem is always helpful.

[MokrySedeS]

Hi guys, I have a weird problem.
This is my laptop: Dell XPS L702x XPS0037A (with GeForce GT 555M)
When using Intel graphics madVR works flawlessly, but when I switch to nvidia, playback is very choppy, basically unwatchable.
It's weird because from the look of the OSD everything seems fine. Here's a screenshot: http://www.imagebam.com/image/339ea6174927992 (I've tried with aero both on and off)

Player: MPC-HC v1.6.0.4014 (latest stable)
Decoders: LAV Filters v0.46 (latest stable)
Renderer: madVR obviously, v0.80 (tried 0.79 to no avail)
Drivers: latest from Dell (http://www.dell.com/support/drivers/pl/pl/pldhs1/DriverDetails/DriverFileFormats?DriverId=4GPJW&FileId=2796125870)
OS: Windows 7 x64

Here's a debug log from a few seconds of playback: http://www.mediafire.com/?mzrwff3hml11zg7

Help :confused:

[madshi]

Window 7 SP1, Zoom Player 8 Max, mVR .80

New problem with Zoom Player 8 and mVR .80 : Coming out of Fullscreen Exclusive Mode into windowed mode causes Zoom Player to act very funny. It freezes, then stutters, the borders of ZP change shape oddly, then finally plays normally again. This is a new problem I have only seen with mVR .80 and only exists with Exclusive Fullscreen mode on. No problems like this with earlier versions of mVR. Going into Exclusive Fullscreen Mode is ok, it's just coming out of it. Thanks
Hope this will be fixed in the next build. If not, let me know.

Hi guys, I have a weird problem.
This is my laptop: Dell XPS L702x XPS0037A (with GeForce GT 555M)
When using Intel graphics madVR works flawlessly, but when I switch to nvidia, playback is very choppy, basically unwatchable.
Are we talking about windowed mode, exclusive mode, or both?

It's weird because from the look of the OSD everything seems fine.
So only a couple of dropped frames at playback start and then no more?

[andyvt]

So only a couple of dropped frames at playback start and then no more?

Is that expected/proper behavior?

[madshi]

That depends. With a very fast CPU and GPU maybe you can get along without dropped frames at startup. Otherwise the option "delay playback start until render queue is full" may help avoiding frame drops at the start of the movie. However, this option sometimes (rarely) results in funny behavior.

[MokrySedeS]

Are we talking about windowed mode, exclusive mode, or both?Both.

So only a couple of dropped frames at playback start and then no more?Yes.
Also now I've noticed that after some time of playback whole MPC-HC stops responding. First time after ~30 seconds. Second try - ~80 seconds.

[kerman]

I have another laptop -with dual core and integrated gfx- unable to run 1080p with madvr properly. I have to quit madvr to get flawless playback. But found that using coreavc decoder instead lav, I can run madvr good. I read lav video filter are the best on his task, and I was wondering how much worse performs coreavc opposite to LAV in terms of image quality.

Would be worth the tradeoff,going with coreavc instead LAV to be able to run madvr?

[MokrySedeS]

My issue is now solved. It turns out that the drivers provided by Dell are worthless. Luckily I found a modified version of the official driver from NVidia, installed it and now madVR is silky smooth.

[madshi]

I have another laptop -with dual core and integrated gfx- unable to run 1080p with madvr properly. I have to quit madvr to get flawless playback. But found that using coreavc decoder instead lav, I can run madvr good. I read lav video filter are the best on his task, and I was wondering how much worse performs coreavc opposite to LAV in terms of image quality.

Would be worth the tradeoff,going with coreavc instead LAV to be able to run madvr?
There isn't any difference in quality between LAV Video and CoreAVC. All h264 decoders are supposed to output exactly the same image quality - unless they're broken. CoreAVC for me still is faster than ffmpeg/libav (used by LAV Video and the internal madVR decoder), too. There's no problem at all using CoreAVC with madVR. It's what I'm doing here, too, atm.

My issue is now solved. It turns out that the drivers provided by Dell are worthless. Luckily I found a modified version of the official driver from NVidia, installed it and now madVR is silky smooth.
Good to hear.

[Thunderbolt8]

There isn't any difference in quality between LAV Video and CoreAVC. All h264 decoders are supposed to output exactly the same image quality - unless they're brokenthe thing is coreavc sometimes shows some weird patters in the video. especially (or better said (almost) only) in case of (BBC) documentaries, it seems that there are sometimes parts or slices of the video which begin to flicker and therefore stick out for some reason.
am I the only one to whom this happens?

edit: Im also using ffdshow raw video at the same time, so maybe thats a combination that produces these problems for me.

[madshi]

Might be a deinterlacing issue. You may want to create screenshots, maybe upload a small sample, and report this to the CoreAVC thread.

[Thunderbolt8]

theres no deinterlacing involved in such cases, the BBC stuff is progressive at 25fps, isnt it?

[nevcairiel]

On the Blu-rays, the BBC documentaries are 50i, but they also are VC-1. No idea if you're talking about broadcasts...

[madshi]

Anyway, regardless of whether it's deinterlacing related or not, I would still recommend to report the problem in the CoreAVC thread with screenshots and a small sample.

[Thunderbolt8]

On the Blu-rays, the BBC documentaries are 50i, but they also are VC-1. No idea if you're talking about broadcasts...alright, no more OT, just this: yes, they are usually VC-1, but for the latest frozen planet doc, AVC has been used for the UK disc.

[djsolidsnake86]

using madvr the colour setting in the ati control center doesn't work with videos
can someone fix this?

[fairchild]

Can someone point me in the right direction as far as some Blu-ray playback software that can be used with MadVR that supports menu's and all that jazz. I don't mean MPC-HC + a decryption software like DVDFab keypass or AnyDVD HD, but some player that comes with decryption built in like Cyberlink PowerDVD or TMT5?

[SamuriHL]

Can someone point me in the right direction as far as some Blu-ray playback software that can be used with MadVR that supports menu's and all that jazz. I don't mean MPC-HC + a decryption software like DVDFab keypass or AnyDVD HD, but some player that comes with decryption built in like Cyberlink PowerDVD or TMT5?

Sure. There are none. :)

[fairchild]

Well drats, thanks. ;) The reason I asked was for ease of use in navigating all the special features and whatnot. Lav Filters + MadVR + ReClock work fine with MPC-HC but the special features are a hassle to go through since they are all out of order and no way to know which playlist is what.

[SamuriHL]

Yea, I understand. That's why I keep 2 commercial players installed myself, even though I prefer LAV filters and madVR, and use J River MC17, I still like having commercial players around for the menuing stuff.

[pankov]

Finding out which version introduced a problem is always helpful.
Last night I tried to track this problem but didn't succeed :(
It happened one out of ten ... or more ... attempts with v0.80 so I didn't have a test case to try with the older versions. If I remember correctly though I've seen the problem when the playback is either paused or just finished. Sorry for not being able to help :(

While testing I reset my madVR settings and while watching madVR's OSD I missed two things
1. Total processing time (real time not the sum off all threads time) of each frame. Currently we have rendering, deinterlacing and present times but they can't be simply added together because they are in different threads, right?
2. Count of repeated frames - I've asked about this a long time ago but it wasn't possible with the rendering path used then. Has this changed now?

This reminded me of another problem that I'm not sure I've seen reported - when the playback stops at the end of the movie the player's OSD that's drawn through the special madVR API isn't working. Madshi, I'm using Zoom Player so it's possible bLight has already reported this to you.

[makakam]

Ok, I've been using mpc-hc+madvr+reclock combo for some time. Since I bitstream I have reclock speed correction disabled. When watching movies I change the refresh rate to 23 (I own radeon 6570) and in madvr osd I can see that there's 1 frame drop every 25-29 minutes. I decided to try lpcm with reclock correction and then madvr states that there's one frame drop every 5 minutes. Isn't it supposed to be better this way? Should I care about what madvr states as far as frame drops are concerned? Thanks.

[nevcairiel]

Should I care about what madvr states as far as frame drops are concerned? Thanks.
You should only care about actual frame drops, the estimation will most likely be wrong.

[djsolidsnake86]

using madvr the colour setting in the ati control center doesn't work with videos
can someone fix this?

madshi please can you add compatibility with ati driver colour control?

[nevcairiel]

madshi please can you add compatibility with ati driver colour control?

I think one of his design goals was to actually avoid all this driver processing, because it usually does more harm then good.
But of course, only he can comment on long term possibilities.

[CruNcher]

Though we allready see that this is not the case for every Hardware with Intels new HD Graphics Generation for example and most probably it's gonna change @ least for the scaling part also in the new AMD and Nvidia Generations so in the End Shader based scaling will be not a good thing anymore for everyone but revert into a bad thing for many user as GPU resources will be consumed for nothing and could be avoided.

[Plutotype]

The freeze doesn't happen for me. You will be able to create a freeze report with the next madVR build. The current build does not support that yet. I will explain how to create freeze reports in the release notes of the next madVR build.

Hi Madshi,

removed your display changer and instead used the MPC-HC native one and guess..same issues. The cause is, MPC-HC.exe and also madHcCtrl.exe are occasionally remaining in the process chain in Windows ( visible through the Task Manager ) after I instruct MPC-HC to exit. If next video is opened, whole computer freezes ( only solution is log off/in ), two instances mpc-hc.exe and madHxCtrl.exe appear in the task manager and need to be ended manually. This issue does not occur always, but lets say every 10th video ( multiple open-playback-exit, for example by testing ). Important thing is, I dont use the close function in MPC-HC, which removes only the video from the playback, but I exit the player hard ( to return to the XBMC or just to kill the player when used stand alone ). I will post this in MPC-HC thread including some log.

Pluto

[secvensor]

And when there will be options for filters FFD?

[Andy o]

I decided to try lpcm with reclock correction and then madvr states that there's one frame drop every 5 minutes. Isn't it supposed to be better this way? Should I care about what madvr states as far as frame drops are concerned? Thanks.

IME when ReClock is active, madVR's estimation takes longer to settle, so wait a few minutes and you should see it rising to hours and maybe even days.

[djsolidsnake86]

I think one of his design goals was to actually avoid all this driver processing, because it usually does more harm then good.
But of course, only he can comment on long term possibilities.

but for correct colors how do in mpc-hc?

[QBhd]

but for correct colors how do in mpc-hc?

If your colours don't look right with madVR, then there is more than likely a problem with your setup some where along the playback chain, and/or your monitor is not calibrated properly.

QB

[VincAlastor]

i've tested a few weeks different configs to avoid dropped frames, but there is no solution. tested with 1080p23 and 1080p24 material.

software config: mpc-hc (latest), madvr 0.80 (older version doesn't help to get no dropped frames), reclock (latest, all vsync options disabled), lavfilters 0.46, Windows 7 Ultimate, 64-bit (Service Pack 1), nvidia driver 285.62

hardware config: GeForce GTX 560 Ti, intel core i5 2500k (igpu deactivated), video and audio hdmi output (gtx 560 ti), TV supported progressive display modes 1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p23, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60

i've read it is a nvidia driver problem, is that right (http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=188990&st=100)? i will try driver version 258.96 WHQL win7 x64 and post the results soon as possible. different madvr settings how "disable windows aero" and so on doesn't help. i get dropped frames in windowed and exclusive mode. now, i use madvr default settings.

madvr (crtl+j) show every time a difference between display (23.97077-23.97083 Hz) and composition rate (23.976 Hz); gpu ram in use 210-270 mb. ca. every 5 min. drops 1 frame and sometimes it shows 1 delayed frame and some presentation glitches.

are this enough infos to explain the problem? i hope it can be solved, i don't want to go back to evr. i will be very happy for every help.

edit: i can not test 258.96 WHQL win7 x64, because the driver is older than the gtx 560 ti card :/

edit: now, i have tested madvr default settings and madvr default settings + aero deactivated in fullscreen exclusive mode video output over intel graphics 3000 igpu. the results are the same: one dropped frame every few minutes.

edit: it seems to be a nvidia driver problem: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=153212&st=20

can someone confirm this, too?

[djsolidsnake86]

If your colours don't look right with madVR, then there is more than likely a problem with your setup some where along the playback chain, and/or your monitor is not calibrated properly.

QB

they look right but i want calibrate better the contrast or saturation

[nevcairiel]

they look right but i want calibrate better the contrast or saturation

Either do it in your TV, or madVR isn't what you're looking for.

[SamuelMaki]

they look right but i want calibrate better the contrast or saturation

Try to play with the gamma correction... However, I suggest you to try to stick with the correct image and get used to it ;)

[VincAlastor]

@nevcairiel and all other nvidia pro's

do you know how you can create a custum resolution for 1080p23 in nvidia control panal, but without that bug, which override the 1080p24 preset? nvidia has not fix it until now! :/
for nearly accurate 23.976 display framerate you have to overlay a custom preset for the original 23p resolution. see here: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=153212&view=findpost&p=1197179

Here are the manual timings to use for 1080p, 1920x1080, 32-bit colors, 23.976 Hz vertical refresh rate:

active pixels horizontal: 1920 vertical: 1080
front porch horizontal: 638 vertical: 4
sync width horizontal: 44 vertical: 5
total pixels horizontal: 2750 vertical: 1124
polarity horizontal: positive vertical: positive
refresh rate: 23.978 (in my case: 23.977)

edit: the guys from anandtech.com explain in following article why intel graphics 2000/3000 igpu's often pushed users to opt for a discrete HTPC GPU. furthermore they explain why there are dropped frames in 24.000/1.001p caused by nvidia gpu's!.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4380/discrete-htpc-gpus-shootout/5

if you create a custom 23p profile you will see that the buggy nvidia driver override the original 23p and 24p profiles. before you create a custom 23p profile you should set the original 24p display mode to preserve this. after that the nvidia control panel will show incorrect profiles, but you can check with madvr the new 23p profile.
how anandtech says, there is no solution for every htpc - it's a trial and error process. you have to play with total vertical pixel parameter and the vertical refresh rate. :/

[kasper93]

@madshi
It seems that you block "Pause" message to prevent disappearing subtitles. But what about MPC-HC translations? For example with Polish or Czech language message still shows and subtitle disappear.