madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Asmodian]

I already have my monitor set to 72 Hz. But I see no difference in comparison to 60 Hz of the "preset mode". As long as I remember I have read once that all of these LCD frequencies aren't "fair", the frequency of a LCD monitor is always 60 Hz and all other frequencies are just emulated. But I may be wrong.

It really depends on the LCD but many LCDs do work at other refresh rates, my 30" can do 72Hz if I create a custom resolution. Without creating a custom resolution it only claims to support 60, MadVR cannot switch to a resolution@refresh rate if it isn't available in Windows. The same is true of my 120Hz monitors, they only claim to support 60 but run at anything up to 120+ Hz.

I believe native resolution for 17" LCD is 1280x1024. If I don't use 25-to-24 fps conversion by ReClock, should I type

I don't think you can say 'for 17" LCD' as I am sure there are 17" LCDs with different native resolutions but that does sound reasonable for a 4:3 17" LCD. This monitor is at least a few years old I assume?

If you don't use reclock (or setup precisely timed custom refresh rates) I don't think you should use MadVR's refresh rate changer. All the changer does is change between different resolutions or refresh rates as they are defined in Windows. You can get the same effect my manually changing the resolution or refresh rate.

That's the question. It looks smooth enough for me, but maybe it may be a bit more smooth? :) Let's consider my monitor is lying to me. Then? Should I set it to "fair" 60 Hz and leave the field empty? Or should I type:

What about smooth motion - should I enable it anyway?

I think you should leave the resolution & refresh rate changer blank in MadVR and turn on smooth motion if your GPU is fast enough. No reclock needed, no dropped or repeated frames, no judder, no blinking monitors as the refresh rate changes: smooth motion works very well for me. I don't use it on my 120Hz screens though as they don't have visible judder without it.

I would suggest you try madVR in native resolution with highest possible refresh rate and SmoothMotion enabled or go for 72hz.
Agree, but no need for the 72 (it should really be as close to 71.928 Hz as you can get, if not using Reclock). :)

[GCRaistlin]

Yes, my monitor is quiet old... very old, to be precise.
I use ReClock. So I believe it's important to define if 72 Hz is fair or not. Cause if ReClock will be guided by nominal 72 Hz and there will be 60 Hz actually it won't do its job good, right?
Another question that is still open is about CRT TV. If it supports 50 Hz and 60 Hz, there will be, as I undestand, two options for PAL video:

To specify "600p50,600p60" and not to use 25fps-to-24fps ReClock conversion.
To leave the field blank and to use 25fps-to-24fps ReClock conversion.

What to select?

[Asmodian]

Reclock detects the current monitor refresh rate so 72 Hz is fine if your monitor doesn't do anything weird when at 72 Hz, only you can tell if it does or not. ;)

I am not sure what this is asking "Cause if ReClock will be guided by nominal 72 Hz and there will be 60 Hz actually it won't do its job good, right?".

1 or 2 is a matter of taste, do you want to slow down PAL or use refresh rate changing? There really is no correct answer for PAL, some content has been sped up so slowing it down could be good but some content was recorded at 25 fps so maybe you do not want to slow it down. Neither 25 or 24 go into 60 well though so maybe use option 1 and keep smooth motion on for 24 fps content. You could also try 48fps (600p48,600p50,600p60) if your TV supports it.

Does smooth motion look smooth to you? On my screens smooth motion works well enough I leave it on the "if judder" setting and keep every screen at the fastest Hz it supports. Recently I even stopped using Reclock without noticing the loss (I couldn't get it to work in Windows 8.1).

[Mangix]

http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates

if it doesn't look stuttery at 72Hz, your monitor is fine.

if it does, 60Hz + SmoothMotion is the best you can do.

[turbojet]

Is there any known advantages of 48hz over 72hz or vice versa?

It would be nice if the ufo test could be set to output 24, 25 and 30 fps at the given refresh rate.

[leeperry]

Refresh Rate Multitool (http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1423433) works great when you wanna ensure that your display doesn't internally resync to 60Hz.

[GCRaistlin]

Reclock detects the current monitor refresh rate so 72 Hz is fine if your monitor doesn't do anything weird when at 72 Hz, only you can tell if it does or not. ;)
My monitor seems to support up to 72 Hz. At least when I set it to 72 Hz I can see this value in ReClock properties. When I set it to 75 Hz there is 60 Hz there.

I am not sure what this is asking "Cause if ReClock will be guided by nominal 72 Hz and there will be 60 Hz actually it won't do its job good, right?".
I mean ReClock may think that my monitor is at 72 Hz and synchronize the video accordingly; but if the real frequency is 60 Hz the result won't be good.

Does smooth motion look smooth to you?
To be honest, I see no difference at all whether I enable this checkbox or not. Tried with 60 Hz and 72 Hz.

http://www.testufo.com/#test=framerates
I tried this link, as well as Refresh Rate Multitool. UFOs move not smooth enough regardless of monitor frequency, even at 60 Hz. All bars blink good enough, even at 75 Hz. :confused:

[madshi]

Here you go - more black bars than you could wish for + logo (matt format and they look like different intensity)! Ugly enough?
Yes - thanks!

regarding black bars, try the smilebox version of "How the west was won". see here: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/screenshot.php?movieid=742&position=2
That's too weird, even for me... :)

2013 "Oz the Great and Powerful" starts in 4:3 pillar-boxed and then expands to 16:9, this could be considered as "odd" black bars, couldn't it? :)
Sounds good. Does it just snap to the other AR from one frame to the next? If so, I have samples for this already. Or is it a smooth transition? That I don't have yet.

Has anyone experienced the video freezing yet the audio continuing? I skipped to the last closing chapter and after it finished and started playing the next file but the picture was frozen and MPC-BE was unresponsive. I couldn't minimize or bring up any menus, it wasn't until I hit CTRL-Alt-Delete and got task manager up that MPC-BE then displayed everything properly. I have no idea at this point where the issue may lie, although perhaps it could be related to another issue I've experienced where the odd subtitle is not being refreshed on screen as well..
Have you tried creating a madVR freeze report?

Oh wait, mVR is completely unable to detect the refresh rate
madVR relies on the refresh rate detection. It won't work properly if that fails to work. Must be a problem with the GPU drivers.

2) madvr pc levels (0-255)

is it normal that i don't get the BTB(0-16) and WTW(235-255) information using calibration discs because of the luma expansion done by madvr (16-235 -> 0-255)?
Yes! If you absolutely have to have BTB/WTW then you have to set madVR to 16-235.

In Life of Pi (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0454876/) there is a scene where fishes come flying through the black bars.
Sounds like this would make a good sample! I don't have that movie, can you provide a sample?

Is it possible that madvr uses the gfx card that's not outputing to monitor for hardware acceleration? Or is it possible to add that feature at some point?
Possible, sure. But not on my to do list, at least not for any time soon. Maybe some time later. One problem is that when using multiple GPUs I'd have to read back the rendered image and copy it to the other GPU. That transfer would run through the PCIe bus and some GPUs are pretty slow reading image data from GPU to CPU RAM over the PCIe bus.

1) on madVR options should i change RGB levels for TV (16-235) or to PC (o-255)?
2) on LAV video configuration should i change RGB levels for TV or PC?
I recommend to set GPU and madVR to 0-255, if your G20 supports full range input. Leave LAV Video at default settings.

Ah, so that's it. Indeed, when I play it without xy-vsfilter it's Y410 10-bit. Thanks for explanation.
You can use XySubFilter instead.

I'm using MPC-HC and madVR to play movies on my 133" screen. I'm seeing some very faint border issues inside the picture frame, it seems like there's some kind of faint inner frame just inside the madVR window, it seems to start exactly two pixels from the bottom of the screen where there's a distinct line/border (haven't verified the pixel count at the other side borders). When viewed from a far it seems like there's slight bending/blurring of the picture frames inside the actual frames. This happens with different aspect ratios and I can't see how my projector would cause this.
Does the same issue occur when using EVR or VMR? How about when playing the video through your computer monitor instead of your projector?

Couldnt find the answer via google so heres the question. When smooth motion is activated i get the smoothed video, its better than anything i tried and I tried a few methods. Motion is constant, not like in all others skippy. But what botters me is how the picture is i dont know.. doubled? U can see it very clearly on the edges of objects, and im not talking about 24/25/30 frame doubling which is normal, i get that stuff. I see it even on true 60 fps video. Theres just that little afterimage, very clear ghosting. I tried to use different upscalers and all the other setting that have impact on picture in madvr but with no luck. Any ideas, anyone has seen what im talking about? I took some printscreens of my 60fps recorded blur test, those are when 'SM' is on and off of course.
For true 60fps video I wouldn't recommend to enable smooth motion FRC. For 24/25fps some people claim they can see ghosting, others can't. Personally, I don't see any ghosting on my LCD monitor with smooth motion FRC turned on, when playing back 24/25fps content. I'm not sure why some people see it. Either you have "faster" eyes. Or maybe your display works differently to mine. Maybe your display is "better", showing the ghosting while mine hides it. Or maybe your display is worse, for some reason making the ghosting stand out more. Does your display have a scanning backlight?

In any case, there's not much I can do here. Smooth motion FRC works by frame blending. And as you reported yourself, it works well enough it making motion smooth. I can't really improve it, unless I totally change the algorithm to not use frame blending. But then you could switch to SVP right away.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0gfCipWyN13MVRlUUVScS1uUXc/edit?usp=sharing

I noticed the same thing happening on my desktop with madVR, it was just harder to notice since the screen is a lot smaller, 24" vs 133". The above is a screenshot (print screen) with a portion of the lower border (resized to 500%).
This looks like ringing. Try activating the anti-ringing filter in the madVR settings, if your GPU is fast enough for that. Of course it's also possible that the ringing is already baked into the source, then there's no way to remove it, unless you use some avisynth scripts for that.

Thanks nevcairiel. I have also looked at the code from xy_subfilter_consumer. I managed to insert some code into LAVVideo e.g.

[...]

after much trial and error. When I had the xy_subfilter_consumer.dll loaded, it was able to discover the interface. If there are any mistakes in the above code please let me know.
Looks alright to me on a quick check.

im occasionally hearing of problems of stuttering from people when madvr switches their display to 23.976hz.
Does anyone know what is causing this or what to suggest to those with this problem?
That's like asking "my car doesn't start, what could be the reason?". There's a long list of possible reasons, like empty battery, no fuel, broken motor, broken fuel pump etc etc.

Ask specific questions, then you'll get a proper answer. E.g. if you have a case of stuttering, then look at the OSD to see if any queues are empty, if the refresh rate is correct or not etc...

Have a question about usage/scaling:
If I set the following settings in Madvr, switch to mathing display mode - when media player goes fullscreen, restore original mode - when media player leaves fullscreen, and the list of display modes to 720p60,1080p60 only.
Will madvr then play back 720p content at 720p resolution and 1080p content at 1080p resolution, while still upscaling everything below 720p to 720p?
madVR will then switch to 1080p60 for 1080p/i content (of any framerate), and to 720p60 for SD and 720p/i content (of any framerate). Whether madVR will upscale or not depends on the settings of the media player. E.g. in MPC-HC there are multiple zoom settings.

I tried smooth motion. Unfortunately, it gives more of a slight constant "vibration" in the video's.
Have you been testing this in fullscreen exclusive mode? Does the madVR OSD (Ctrl+J) report any frame drops, repeats or presentation glitches when you get that vibration? Are all the queues more or less full?

I have my main screen at 75 Hz, seems the smooth motion doesn't work properly at this rate.
What makes you say that? Any hints of problems in the madVR OSD? Dropped frames? Empty queues? Have you been using FSE mode? Maybe your display doesn't handle 75Hz properly, but converts it internally to 60Hz by dropping some frames? Just guessing, of course. Can't do anything else, due to the lack of detailed information.

[nevcairiel]

Sounds good. Does it just snap to the other AR from one frame to the next? If so, I have samples for this already. Or is it a smooth transition? That I don't have yet.


It slides open, like opening a curtain.
I'll see if i can make a sample, but it might be a while, going on vacation soon.

[Asmodian]

I mean ReClock may think that my monitor is at 72 Hz and synchronize the video accordingly; but if the real frequency is 60 Hz the result won't be good.
I do not think this is a worry, especially given the results at 75 (I don't think your monitor really supports 75). It looks like ReClock gets it right.
To be honest, I see no difference at all whether I enable this checkbox or not. Tried with 60 Hz and 72 Hz.
This is a good thing, DO NOT try to become sensitive the this "judder" we talk about and you do not need to worry. Keep everything at it's default refresh rate and turn smooth motion on. :)
I tried this link, as well as Refresh Rate Multitool. UFOs move not smooth enough regardless of monitor frequency, even at 60 Hz. All bars blink good enough, even at 75 Hz. :confused:
With an old LCD it might not be fast enough to get a perfect picture. By "All bars blink good enough" are you looking at the frame skipping (http://www.testufo.com/#test=frameskipping) test? That is the test I would use to make sure my screen was running at the set refresh rate. Is 75 really running at 75? It looks like your system resets to 60 if you try to set 75.

Is there any known advantages of 48hz over 72hz or vice versa?
Not for watching video (unless using a refresh rate other than 24 fps, then the faster the better of course) but I really notice the drop from 60 or 72 to 48 Hz in the rest of Windows, the desktop, mouse movement, etc.

[GCRaistlin]

By "All bars blink good enough" are you looking at the frame skipping (http://www.testufo.com/#test=frameskipping) test?
No, it was about Refresh Rate Multitool.
I can't pass the test you gave link to: "poor performance" (isn't C2D 6400 @ 3.33 MHz enough? :eek: ).

[leeperry]

madVR relies on the refresh rate detection. It won't work properly if that fails to work. Must be a problem with the GPU drivers.
OK, thanks for the reply. I'll whine to nvidia's tech support as they apparently seem to care for both madVR and XP :)

[madshi]

It slides open, like opening a curtain.
I'll see if i can make a sample, but it might be a while, going on vacation soon.
A sample would be nice, but it isn't urgent.

OK, thanks for the reply. I'll whine to nvidia's tech support as they apparently seem to care for both madVR and XP :)
They do? Well, their developer support does not seem to. I've posted a bug report many many months ago (CUDA related) and although they've reproduced the bug ages ago, they haven't done anything about it yet, and even stopped replying...

[Asmodian]

No, it was about Refresh Rate Multitool.
I can't pass the test you gave link to: "poor performance" (isn't C2D 6400 @ 3.33 MHz enough? :eek: ).
I can pass that test on an old E8400 @ 3.0 Ghz with an ATI Radeon HD 2400 I have at work, using Chrome as the browser. Something may be wrong with your system but as far as MadVR goes I think you will be better off leaving the resolution and refresh rate fields blank.

edit: Isn't the C2D E6400 a 2.13 GHz chip? Nice overclock. That chip is from Q3 2006 so it might be showing its age now. My E8400 is probably faster, and I am always mad at this system for being so slow. :p

[GCRaistlin]

I can pass that test on an old E8400 @ 3.0 Ghz with an ATI Radeon HD 2400 I have at work, using Chrome as the browser
E8400 should be a lot faster than my poor old E6400, even overclocked. Is a videocard of any importance for this test? Mine is 8800GT.

[GCRaistlin]

I tried to play a DVD which videostream is 29.970 fps (as ReClock reports). List of display modes is
1280x1024p60, 1280x1024p70, 1280x1024p72, 1280x1024p75
I suppose the best frequency for 29.970 fps is 60 Hz, but madVR changes to 72 Hz. So ReClock stays yellow. When I manually change to 60 Hz it becomes green. What can be done here?

[leeperry]

They do? Well, their developer support does not seem to. I've posted a bug report many many months ago (CUDA related) and although they've reproduced the bug ages ago, they haven't done anything about it yet, and even stopped replying...
I vividly remember reading about a bug fix in new nvidia drivers having madVR mentioned, that was like 6/9 months ago IIRC.

Anyway, all VR's are broken with the GTX660 XP drivers so either they give up on XP altogether or they fix them. Simple enough as around 50% of the computers in the world still run this caveman OS and they own the XP market as AMD gave up a while ago.

[e-t172]

Anyway, all VR's are broken with the GTX660 XP drivers so either they give up on XP altogether or they fix them. Simple enough as around 50% of the computers in the world still run this caveman OS and they own the XP market as AMD gave up a while ago.

It's not that simple when you realize that the intersection of people who care about minute details about their PC's video playback capabilities and people who run a "caveman OS" absolutely do not represent 50% of the computers in the world, in fact I would be surprised if it was more than 0.1% or something.

Please stop deflecting and whining about what other people/companies should do, as it is very clear looking at your situation that you are the one who should be doing something (i.e. upgrade). NVidia is making a perfectly sensible business decision here, and they would probably be laughing if they were to read your post.

[leeperry]

They do? Well, their developer support does not seem to
w00t, got a reply..let's see if they'll care about fixing the darn thing now :devil:

some ppl already complained about the same issue on their forum but they might not have filled an official bug report: Nvidia GTX 660 and MadVR Vsync issue in Windows XP (https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/546220/nvidia-gtx-660-and-madvr-vsync-issue-in-windows-xp/)

[DragonQ]

Gotta agree with bryonhowley, it's amazing that people still expect support for a 12 year old OS. Can't see nVidia taking much time to look into it so it'll probably go unresolved unless it's a really simple fix.

[leeperry]

Each time I made bug reports to the green force, it took them a while but they did get things done. I might as well buy an HD7950(same price as the 660 but with a 384bit memory bus) should they decide that it's not worth their time.

[6233638]

I vividly remember reading about a bug fix in new nvidia drivers having madVR mentioned, that was like 6/9 months ago IIRC.

Anyway, all VR's are broken with the GTX660 XP drivers so either they give up on XP altogether or they fix them. Simple enough as around 50% of the computers in the world still run this caveman OS and they own the XP market as AMD gave up a while ago.Windows XP has not been for sale since 2008. Mainstream support stopped in 2009. Six months from now, XP is officially dead.

It is time to move on.

[leeperry]

Now that I think of it, a HD7950 seems a far better choice than the GTX660....384bit memory bus Vs 192. I think I remember madshi claiming that textures processing on AMD's was also quite a bit faster but this might have changed though.

The last 04/2013 XP drivers from AMD will work with anything up to the 7990 and resellers are currently getting rid of their outstanding 7000 boards as the R7/9 are bound to show up, a PNP 150€ 7950 sounds quite tempting :)

No CUVID, though....but there's a bunch of highly efficient software decoders for AVC so all in all not a big worry. Anyway, it seems that whenever I mention XP in this thread things get emotional, I sincerely apologize to madshi for that.

[StephaneM]

Hi,

I'm having some troubles when I use madVR as a renderer instead of EVR in my WPF application.

The main problem being that when using madVR, it is somehow preventing the application to respond to mouse input (also keyboard input but not completely)

This is how the whole thing is setup : a .Net 4 WPF application, with a main Window, in this window is a WindowsFormsHost control. This control does bridge WPF and Windows Form (so the message pump is provided by the WPF application)

The WindowsFormsHost does host a Form whose only purpose is to provide the video window to the renderer (EVR or madVR)

If I use madVR without taking care of threading issue, it totally locks the application and the directshow graph will never run (it builds though).

So as I suspected a threading issue : I create a new thread (MTA) where all the graph building and handling is made (I have a thread dispatcher object to marshal call from the WPF UI thread to the directshow thread)

So at this point the video window is on the WPF UI thread and the directshow graph is in its own thread. The directshow thread does not have an application message pump. This thread however is pumping events (and use ManualResetEvent.Wait(0)) so it should pump some events).

At this point when using madVR, the directshow graph does start to playback but the application doesn't respond to input (keyboard / mouse)

For the application to respond a little, I have to call a DoEvents() kind of code within my dispatcher loop (pushing a Dispatcher Frame). Then the application does respond to keyboard input (with some lag but not always) but mouse input is still dead...

At this point I don't know what to do to make it work properly...

Any ideas ?

Thanks
--
Stéphane.

[madshi]

I suppose the best frequency for 29.970 fps is 60 Hz, but madVR changes to 72 Hz. So ReClock stays yellow. When I manually change to 60 Hz it becomes green. What can be done here?
Depends on your deinterlacing settings. If you force madVR into film mode, it will deinterlace 60i to 24p, so 72Hz is the better choice. If you don't force madVR into film mode, 60i is usually deinterlaced into 60p, so 60Hz would be the best choice. So my best guess is that you've forced madVR into film mode? Which is good, if the content is really a telecined movie.

The directshow thread does not have an application message pump.
I'd suggest to add a message pump to that thread, too. It might not always be needed, but it shouldn't harm, either. Just imagine one of the DirectShow filters creates a window in the context of the DirectShow thread. Without a message pump that window will be dead, which could result in deadlocks.

At this point when using madVR, the directshow graph does start to playback but the application doesn't respond to input (keyboard / mouse)
Look here:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd377323(v=vs.85).aspx

[6233638]

Something I have noticed for a while, but never had the time to chase down the cause of, is that black level is always slightly raised when using madVR - it would never fade to black, and I had to reduce brightness by one or two steps further than should be necessary, sacrificing some shadow detail.

It turns out that the cause is madVR's dithering.
Would it be possible to disable dithering for black, or maybe even the lowest 1% of the signal, rather than having to disable dithering entirely?

Dither enabled:
http://www.abload.de/img/dither2vs4f.png

Dither disabled:
http://www.abload.de/img/no-dither6as52.png

I had to take some really long, high ISO exposures (30s, ISO 1,600) from the side of my TV for it to even show up in a photo, boosted to ISO 512,000 for clarity. Ignore the lights on the screen, that's just a reflection.

[Plutotype]

Hi folks,
Do I need to restart the PC/notebook when changing levels using madNvLevelsTweaker? Has Nvidia addressed the RGB Full/Limited levels issue ( missing full-limited instant selection )? I dont have a Nvidia GPU to test it, sorry.

Other question I need to get answer is - how much GPU intensive is 3D LUT processing on your GPU using madVR? Will this be a non issue on a Intel HD4400 and a i7 Haswell CPU?
Thanks
Peter

[cvrkuth]

I update my OS (Windows 8.1 Pro), I have same problem again.
I noticed that when playing 1080p24 (mkv, m2ts, ts .. full screen exclusive mode, default settings) my screen goes to 23hz. Because of this, there is a drop frames every 30-40 sec.

If I uncheck 'Present Several frames in advance "(old path), my screen stays in 24hz.

[pie1394]

Something I have noticed for a while, but never had the time to chase down the cause of, is that black level is always slightly raised when using madVR - it would never fade to black, and I had to reduce brightness by one or two steps further than should be necessary, sacrificing some shadow detail.

It turns out that the cause is madVR's dithering.
Would it be possible to disable dithering for black, or maybe even the lowest 1% of the signal, rather than having to disable dithering entirely?



What model is your TV? It does not seem to happen to my Sony KDL-65HX920 with the fully black scene at those particular zone(s)...

I can tell the LEDs at those zones are entirely turned off with the pitch-black dark zoom viewing condition -- if TV set's local dimming is turned on -- even with the strong backlight at 8 (of 10). I don't think this TV would turn off the backlit even there is only 1 slightly lighted pixel at any given local zone.

[StephaneM]

I'd suggest to add a message pump to that thread, too. It might not always be needed, but it shouldn't harm, either. Just imagine one of the DirectShow filters creates a window in the context of the DirectShow thread. Without a message pump that window will be dead, which could result in deadlocks.
Ok I added a message pump and still no changes (I received very few messages : WM_PAINT and some DWM notifications)

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd377323(v=vs.85).aspx
I already placed the drain on the video window host (with or without the drain, there is no changes).

So now with the message pump and a STA thread (sometimes a STA helps with some DirectShow filters) I'm still having the main window that is "frozen" at some time (will respond to keyboard / mouse input with delays or instantly...)

I bet that the WindowsFormsHost is responsible but I can't see why it's happening neither what's madVR can be doing to eat the messages for keyboard / mouse input (and probably other)

[6233638]

What model is your TV? It does not seem to happen to my Sony KDL-65HX920 with the fully black scene at those particular zone(s)...

I can tell the LEDs at those zones are entirely turned off with the pitch-black dark zoom viewing condition -- if TV set's local dimming is turned on -- even with the strong backlight at 8 (of 10). I don't think this TV would turn off the backlit even there is only 1 slightly lighted pixel at any given local zone.It's an HX900.

When dither is enabled, a black signal is displayed as a mixture of 1 and 0, which activates the backlight at a very low level. It's still very dark, and was difficult to photograph at all, which is why I have the camera at a sharp angle to the TV like that. Any photos I took looking straight on at the TV were just black.

If you're in a dark room and sit off to the side of the TV, you should be able to see it with the 920 as well, unless they have changed their local dimming algorithms, allowing it to clip the lowest signal levels. Or it may be that you have brightness set to a level which clips the lowest levels.

[Gagorian]

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0gfCipWyN13MVRlUUVScS1uUXc/edit?usp=sharing

I noticed the same thing happening on my desktop with madVR, it was just harder to notice since the screen is a lot smaller, 24" vs 133". The above is a screenshot (print screen) with a portion of the lower border (resized to 500%).

Does the same issue occur when using EVR or VMR? How about when playing the video through your computer monitor instead of your projector?

This looks like ringing. Try activating the anti-ringing filter in the madVR settings, if your GPU is fast enough for that. Of course it's also possible that the ringing is already baked into the source, then there's no way to remove it, unless you use some avisynth scripts for that.

It seems the same issue (the lines/blurring close to the picture frame border) is also visible when using EVR. It's present on both my computer (AMD HD 7950) and my projector (HTPC with AMD A10-5700 iGPU).

I'm already using the madVR anti-ringing filter and it doesn't seem to reduce this problem. The issue also seems unrelated to the source as it's visible on all content.

It seems that it isn't a madVR specific problem, but do you have any ideas what could be causing it?

[6233638]

I'm already using the madVR anti-ringing filter and it doesn't seem to reduce this problem. The issue also seems unrelated to the source as it's visible on all content.

It seems that it isn't a madVR specific problem, but do you have any ideas what could be causing it?It will be the source material. A lot of SD content has this problem, and even some HD content.
The anti-ringing filter can only reduce ringing caused by madVR's scaling algorithms. It will not remove ringing encoded in the source.

You may want to try using some of the softer scaling algorithms such as SoftCubic (do not use the AR filter with it) or a player which has the option to crop the edges. (JRiver will do this)

[Plutotype]

Hi guys,
a friend of mine cant get his madVR/MPC-HC/LAV/reclock setup right. He has an Core i7 desktop CPU, GTX780 GPU and gets this:
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/2907/0uxn.jpg

We cant track down the reasons for the dropped frames. What else would you check?
Thanks
Pluto

[SamKook]

If the number of dropped frames doesn't grow after it's first launched, it might simply be due to the switch to fullscreen. I always get a couple of dropped frames during the switch on my pc, but none whatsoever afterwards.

[Plutotype]

Its not windowed to exclusive switch. I think its something in the background that causes the frames go off, other apps maybe, because the playback should be fine according to the queues, they fill-up pretty well. The drops are slow but rather constant.

[YxP]

Is reclock at it's default settings and working? Are all other windows minimized?

[Plutotype]

my friend copied these setting onto his setup:
http://www.mediafire.com/?y8x1s1u8et6s92w

[ryrynz]

Try disabling 'use separate device' also try disabling 'switch to matching display mode'
Also, unrelated to this issue, untick 'scale in linear light' on upscaling.

[nevcairiel]

Are you sure ReClock is actually doing its job properly?
Because it still says that it'll drop a frame every 30 seconds, if ReClock is functioning perfectly, that number should go way down to hours if not days.

[Qaq]

Check bitstreaming in Lav audio.

[dansrfe]

Is there a reason why the "1 frame repeat/drop ever X units" may be hours at one point and days at another? What actually determines "X units"? How does ReClock affect this value, if the refresh rate is a multiple of the frame rate and the taskbar icon is green?

[Plutotype]

Thanks guys, the Reclock is set correctly ( lightning green ) according to this http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1411/ybhj.png
He says, he is loosing around 25 frames in 3 minutes of a 1080p video and the drops are apparent in fast moving scenes. It doesnt look like a madVR issue to me, so I wont spam this thread and try to fix it by checking his PC state and other components during playback.

[madshi]

Something I have noticed for a while, but never had the time to chase down the cause of, is that black level is always slightly raised when using madVR - it would never fade to black, and I had to reduce brightness by one or two steps further than should be necessary, sacrificing some shadow detail.

It turns out that the cause is madVR's dithering.
Would it be possible to disable dithering for black, or maybe even the lowest 1% of the signal, rather than having to disable dithering entirely?
madVR processes in high bitdepth. At the end of the processing chain, some pixels might have 8bit values of 0.1/0.1/0.1, while others have 0.0/0.0/0.0. If I don't apply dither to the 0.0/0.0/0.0 pixels, quantization noise might creep back in and damage image quality in dark scenes.

It is true that dithering hurts black levels (and white level, for that matter) a tiny bit, but at the moment there's nothing I can do about that. Oh well, I could detect a full black/white frame and behave differently, but that would cost quite some additional performance. In the long run I hope to be able to replace dithering with error diffusion. That should take care of the problem. However, this will only be possible (if at all) by using OpenCL or CUDA, and that is still some time away...

Do I need to restart the PC/notebook when changing levels using madNvLevelsTweaker? Has Nvidia addressed the RGB Full/Limited levels issue ( missing full-limited instant selection )? I dont have a Nvidia GPU to test it, sorry.
Yes, a reboot is necessary, and no NVidia hasn't changed anything, AFAIK.

Other question I need to get answer is - how much GPU intensive is 3D LUT processing on your GPU using madVR? Will this be a non issue on a Intel HD4400 and a i7 Haswell CPU?
It costs performance, but it works well enough on my HD4000 with 1080p24 movies. Haven't tested 1080p60 playback with 3dlut.

I update my OS (Windows 8.1 Pro), I have same problem again.
It works for me. Which GPU do you have? Are you using the latest madVR build? If so, create a debug log, zip it and upload it somewhere and I'll have a look.

I already placed the drain on the video window host (with or without the drain, there is no changes).
You need to place the drain on madVR. And the thread which owns the window which you've used for the drain must be quick to react to changes, if you don't want delays in mouse/keyboard handling.

It seems the same issue (the lines/blurring close to the picture frame border) is also visible when using EVR. It's present on both my computer (AMD HD 7950) and my projector (HTPC with AMD A10-5700 iGPU).

It seems that it isn't a madVR specific problem, but do you have any ideas what could be causing it?
It will be the source material. A lot of SD content has this problem, and even some HD content.
I agree with 6233638, I think these ringing artifacts are most likely already in the source. The only thing you could do is use avisynth processing to try to remove the artifacts. avisynth is not too easy to setup for an avisynth unexperienced user, unfortunately.

Hi guys,
a friend of mine cant get his madVR/MPC-HC/LAV/reclock setup right. He has an Core i7 desktop CPU, GTX780 GPU and gets this:
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/2907/0uxn.jpg

We cant track down the reasons for the dropped frames. What else would you check?
It's weird that you have both dropped and repeated frames, and so many of them. I'd suggest to try resetting Reclock's timing database. If that doesn't help, try without Reclock. If that still doesn't help, you could upload a debug log for me to look at. You're using LAV for splitting & decoding, I suppose?

Also make sure you have no other software running which might use the GPU. Might even be the browser.

-------

Next madVR build is going to have some goodies for you guys. Will take a while until it will be released, though. Here's one new feature:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1645630#post1645630

[James Freeman]

Is there any way to use ICC Color Profiles (like MPC-HC does natively) without converting to 3D LUT?

I tried to convert my profile using Argyll+DispcalGUI, and with TI3 Parser but with no success,
both of them show some crazy windows errors with red X in them.


I calibrate my monitor (Dell U2410 in sRGB mode) with i1 Display Pro to create an ICC profile.

In madVR in the Calibration settings:
I see NO difference between "Disable calibration controls for this display"
and "This display is already calibrated" with BT.709, pure power curve 2.20.
Gamma Processing works just the same.


The problem is when I switch to a wider gamut option in my display I have no way to use my calibration profile.
Again, Is there any way to use ICC Color Profiles (like MPC-HC does natively) without converting to 3D LUT?

[StephaneM]

You need to place the drain on madVR. And the thread which owns the window which you've used for the drain must be quick to react to changes, if you don't want delays in mouse/keyboard handling.
I'm not sure I know how to put the drain on madVR ?

This is what I'm doing for now :

playbackGraph.AddFilter(CommonFilter.MadshiVideoRenderer, "evr");
.../... (Building Graph : adding filters connecting pins)
IVideoWindow videoWindow = playbackGraph.GraphBuilder.GetInterface<IVideoWindow>();
result = videoWindow.put_Owner(videoFrame.VideoHwnd);
result = videoWindow.put_MessageDrain(videoFrame.VideoHwnd);
result = videoWindow.SetWindowPosition(0, 0, (int)videoFrame.WindowSize.Width, (int)videoFrame.WindowSize.Height);
result = videoWindow.put_WindowStyle(DSWindowStyle.Child | DSWindowStyle.Visible | DSWindowStyle.ClipSiblings);
The "videoFrame" is a WPF Control which hosts the WindowsFormsHost, this host does have a Window, this is this window handle that is exposed through videoFrame.VideoHwnd and forwarded to madVR (with put_Owner)

This window is created on the WPF UI thread (I have no other choices), while madVR is created on a dedicated thread (STA or MTA, with message pumping)

Next madVR build is going to have some goodies for you guysThis debanding feature is very nice. Thanks.

[pie1394]

It's an HX900.

When dither is enabled, a black signal is displayed as a mixture of 1 and 0, which activates the backlight at a very low level. It's still very dark, and was difficult to photograph at all, which is why I have the camera at a sharp angle to the TV like that. Any photos I took looking straight on at the TV were just black.

If you're in a dark room and sit off to the side of the TV, you should be able to see it with the 920 as well, unless they have changed their local dimming algorithms, allowing it to clip the lowest signal levels. Or it may be that you have brightness set to a level which clips the lowest levels.

I guess your eyes are exteremely good. :D

Anyway I did a simple test and 3 images were taken for the comparison. The 1st one is regular lighting room condition. The 2nd one is the paused video at totally dark scene with mouse cursor moving around. The 3rd one is the same video w/o mouse cursor. The latter 2 photos were taken with ISO100 / 30sec / F1.4 setting. The camera is Panasonic GF2 + Leica DG 25mm.

The GPU is HD7970 with 1920x1080p24 10-bit color mode signal to 65HX920. Video source is BD, MadVR setting is with Jinc3 AR, dithering ON, FSE. But I don't know if the GPU driver's 8-bit to 10-bit LUT (or even dithering?) could lead the different result... ?

Yet it is confirmed LEDs will be shut-off entirely at the dark-zones of the 2nd one - just like the 3rd attached image.

The 2nd one does show some light bleeding (more obvious at bottom of the panel) while it is not seen on the 3rd one. It can also observed by my eyes observing from the same off-angle. But I think it is the panel's design characteristics -- might be diffuser film related limitation.

Anyway 65HX920's Innolux S-MVA panel, local dimming control, Corning Gorilla class seems to perform better than HX900's Sharp panel + glass (according to some reviews).

[6233638]

madVR processes in high bitdepth. At the end of the processing chain, some pixels might have 8bit values of 0.1/0.1/0.1, while others have 0.0/0.0/0.0. If I don't apply dither to the 0.0/0.0/0.0 pixels, quantization noise might creep back in and damage image quality in dark scenes.

It is true that dithering hurts black levels (and white level, for that matter) a tiny bit, but at the moment there's nothing I can do about that. Oh well, I could detect a full black/white frame and behave differently, but that would cost quite some additional performance. In the long run I hope to be able to replace dithering with error diffusion. That should take care of the problem. However, this will only be possible (if at all) by using OpenCL or CUDA, and that is still some time away...I suppose I'll just have to disable dither for now then. It may not matter on panels with with less than perfect black level, but on a local dimming LED set, my only option is to reduce brightness and clip the lowest levels, or disable dithering and retain that shadow detail. It's the difference between a zone switching off, and always staying on at a low level.

Next madVR build is going to have some goodies for you guys. Will take a while until it will be released, though. Here's one new feature:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1645630#post1645630Looks promising! I assume there will be a new tag so it can be selectively enabled/disabled?

[James Freeman]

Anyone use the BT.709 Gamma profiles, and think they look like they got elevated blacks and too low gamma (1.95)?

That's because 709 gamma specs are for Encoding ONLY !!!
NOT for calibrating displays, period.

The film you are watching or a recording from a video camera is probably is already encoded with a standard 709 gamma.
If its a professional Hollywood film aka (Blu Ray), its 100% encoded with rec.709 gamma curve.
The Rec.709 gamma curve is encoded into the Camera while filming (or converted to in the studio).

Your Display calibration should be a Pure Power Curve of 2.2 to 2.4.

Again,

The Rec.709 Standard refers to Encoding Only.
The resulting video should be watched on a Pure Power Curve gamma display like a CRT or LCD.


Why you ask?
The 709 encoding gamma curve is designed to reduce the blacks below 1.8% of luminance to remove digital Camera noise.
When we use the Inverse curve for calibrating displays (which we absolutely should NOT), we get elevated blacks below 1.8%, a gamma of 1.96, and a lower Contrast Ratio.
When viewing a 709 encoded video on a properly calibrated monitor with a power curve of 2.2 to 2.4, these blacks (below 1.8%) are blacker than
an encoded video with a pure power curve gamma of 0.45 or 0.50 (like with older SD NTSC standard).
All this to eliminate the noise at the lower blacks 6233638 saw few posts ago, although not because of the same reason.

Everything falls into place for our enjoyment of video watching.


While there may be several problems here, you're getting a few things confused. Rec.709's "overall gamma of 1.9" is in the encoding curve.
A problem with rec.709 has been that the spec only includes the encoding curve (what the camera uses to translate linear light into the spec's color space).
This curve is not relevant for monitors. You'll want to calibrate your monitor somewhere between Gamma 2.2 and 2.4 to display video correctly.
When you say "sRGB Gamma 2.2", I assume you're referring to sRGB primaries and a Gamma 2.2 curve, which is correct, since sRGB and rec.709 primaries are identical.


Again, if your calibration software is offering "gamma 2.2" and "gamma 2.4" as an alternative to "rec.709", then they're referring to the gamma curve, and you should use 2.2 or 2.4.
Many calibration systems sadly don't understand that the rec.709 curve is not suitable for anything but encoding and should not be given even as an option for monitor calibration.


Question: Why madshi included BT.709 Display Gamma into MadVR?



Hope this helps to clarify my confusion.
;)

[PetitDragon]

....If its a professional Hollywood film aka (DVD, Blu Ray), its 100% encoded with rec.709 gamma curve....

Are you sure? Genius!

:D