madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[VBB]

Anyone have an explanation as to why times increase by 2-4ms when switching from 112b to 113? Went back and forth several times, always with the same result. No settings were changed. Also switched decoders, to see if that made any difference. Nope. AVC/SDR went up by 4ms, and HEVC/HDR by 2. If I remember correctly, Mathias said 113 would increase performance, if anything. He probably meant with tone-mapping only, but even so, why would performance overall take a hit like that?

[LordX2]

I have noticed that the choice of upscaling for chroma affects the saturation very slightly, so maybe that's the reason why NGU AA looks more natural, because it doesn't look very saturated, but I think that using it the result is less saturated than the source. The differences are minimal anyway, and the end result will obviously still depend on the saturation settings.

@ LordX2

Yes, start testing with 125, but I think that projectors sometimes need values below 100, the latest betas allow them.

Where would I adjust saturation settings? And should I?

I just watched the original Harry Potter movie with the kids, and there were some scenes (especially the outdoor/bright scenes) that looked really saturated.

It was the 4K Remux, but I still have to wonder how much of it is the actual source/encode vs my own settings.

[Alexkral]

Where would I adjust saturation settings? And should I?
No, I don't think you should make any changes to your saturation settings related to what I said.

[SamuriHL]

Anyone have an explanation as to why times increase by 2-4ms when switching from 112b to 113? Went back and forth several times, always with the same result. No settings were changed. Also switched decoders, to see if that made any difference. Nope. AVC/SDR went up by 4ms, and HEVC/HDR by 2. If I remember correctly, Mathias said 113 would increase performance, if anything. He probably meant with tone-mapping only, but even so, why would performance overall take a hit like that?

It doesn't. It's actually reporting more accurately in 113. It is better performing even though the reporting shows a more accurate picture than older builds.

[SamuriHL]

@LordX2 are you using the HDR test builds? That information is key in helping you because a *LOT* has changed between the last official build and those test builds.

[VBB]

Thanks! Now I remember madshi said that. See, that's what happens when it's been almost a year since the last build ;)

[SamuriHL]

I know, right! I am hoping he can kick the Envy out of the nest and work on that build he said was "coming soon" a few months ago. LMAO

[LordX2]

@LordX2 are you using the HDR test builds? That information is key in helping you because a *LOT* has changed between the last official build and those test builds.

Using 92.17 - its what came up at the top of the page. Is that way out of date or current?

[Asmodian]

92.17 is what I am using. There are beta builds for better HDR to SDR but it takes a lot of GPU power at the better settings. Up to you if you want to mess with it, I use passthrough for HDR so the changes are not relevant for me.
http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure113.zip

[LordX2]

92.17 is what I am using. There are beta builds for better HDR to SDR but it takes a lot of GPU power at the better settings. Up to you if you want to mess with it, I use passthrough for HDR so the changes are not relevant for me.
http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure113.zip

Didn't think about doing this - I have HDR available on the projector - is it optimal to pass it through?

Does this reduce a lot of rendering GPU draw? e.g. would I be able to have higher settings with the same hardware if I passthrough HDR?

[LordX2]

Just tried lowering the target NITS and output to HDR - STILL looks dim on my projector. Colors look so much better with NITS at 135 and output at SDR.

I am sure the beta builds may offer additional quality and tweaks, I just don't know if I can start all over and go down the rabbit hole again. hahah

Also, Back to the Future III looks way better than the first Harry Potter movie, and it's 10 years older. Probably just a shitty transfer for HP1 I guess.

MadVR seems to show the NITS that the movie was imaged with - for back to the future, it shows 1000 nits, for HP1 it was 500 something, and for Sicario (2018) it was over 8000 NITS! Sicario DID seem darker to watch, I wonder if that has something to do with it?

[Alexkral]

...and for Sicario (2018) it was over 8000 NITS! Sicario DID seem darker to watch, I wonder if that has something to do with it?

Yes, uncheck "output video in HDR format", check "measure each frame peak luminance", and for movies like Sicario lower target peak nits to 100.

[SamuriHL]

The thing about the beta builds is that they have vastly improved tone mapping. Madshi introduced histogram dynamic tone mapping that essentially measures each frame in real time. It is incredibly impressive and I know most of the projector owners that are using it are extremely satisfied with the results they are getting.

But...

Being test builds they have a ton of settings that must be tweaked. This is because madshi is trying to find the best combination of settings for different things. And there are a few bugs in the latest test build that will hopefully get fixed up soon.

All that being said, several people have posted their settings that they use in the test build thread. Those would be a great place to start from if you really want to see what great tone mapping can do for your projector. As long as you remember it's a test build and the few limitations it has, you will be blown away by what it can do.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[LordX2]

The thing about the beta builds is that they have vastly improved tone mapping. Madshi introduced histogram dynamic tone mapping that essentially measures each frame in real time. It is incredibly impressive and I know most of the projector owners that are using it are extremely satisfied with the results they are getting.

But...

Being test builds they have a ton of settings that must be tweaked. This is because madshi is trying to find the best combination of settings for different things. And there are a few bugs in the latest test build that will hopefully get fixed up soon.

All that being said, several people have posted their settings that they use in the test build thread. Those would be a great place to start from if you really want to see what great tone mapping can do for your projector. As long as you remember it's a test build and the few limitations it has, you will be blown away by what it can do.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I may have to give it a try - do you have a link for the test build thread? Tried searching for it.

Also, if I am to try the beta build - should I completely uninstall the current build, or just download the beta and run the installer?

[Siso]

I may have to give it a try - do you have a link for the test build thread? Tried searching for it.

Also, if I am to try the beta build - should I completely uninstall the current build, or just download the beta and run the installer?

You can replace the old files with the new ones.

[madjock]

I may have to give it a try - do you have a link for the test build thread? Tried searching for it


It was linked a few posts ago

https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1926671&postcount=60421

[LordX2]

It was linked a few posts ago

https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1926671&postcount=60421

The discussion thread, not the link for the download - got that already.

And is there a little help or guide to explain some of these new tweaks and features so I don't post unnecessary questions?

[VBB]

This is the thread over at AVS: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/

[el Filou]

Not sure why anyone with a Zen 2 CPU would want or need to use hardware decoding... I am a firm believer in software decoding and if my ancient FX-8350 could just barely do HEVC 4K why wrestle with HW decoding?Heat, noise, overall system responsiveness. Even if the CPU can do it, I'd rather do it with much less power and more speed by the GPU.

[SamuriHL]

I may have to give it a try - do you have a link for the test build thread? Tried searching for it.

Also, if I am to try the beta build - should I completely uninstall the current build, or just download the beta and run the installer?

You can replace the old files with the new ones.

Not a matter of "can". It's a requirement. The test builds are not a full build. It is required to replace the files from 0.9.17.

[SamuriHL]

And is there a little help or guide to explain some of these new tweaks and features so I don't post unnecessary questions?

Read the last few pages of that thread and look for NeoXP's posts that contain his settings. That'll be a fairly decent place to start.

[LordX2]

So I bit the bullet and jumped on the 113 train. It really does look good!

I am using: D3D11 (native), Chroma @ AA Medium, Luma @ Sharp High

**ONE important thing I noticed is that my video ram usage is VERY high. 3924MB (out of 4GB) so I am pretty much peaked - which could result in some playback issues on some scenes.

Is there a way to reduce video ram WITHOUT reducing quality in any way? Something like reducing the amount of frames presented in advance to 4 instead of 8?? Does that help video card ram at all? Any other ideas would be appreciated!**

[SamuriHL]

Try lowering the GPU queue size and see if that helps and if it breaks anything.

[Asmodian]

Is there a way to reduce video ram WITHOUT reducing quality in any way? Something like reducing the amount of frames presented in advance to 4 instead of 8?? Does that help video card ram at all? Any other ideas would be appreciated!**

I recommend not setting frames presented in advance above 3 so that is a great way to reduce memory usage.

Windows 10 doesn't seem to like too many frames presented in advance, it can cause un-reported (in madVR's UI) frame glitches/stutters.

Like SamuriHL suggested six or even lower GPU buffers works well on my system. This has the biggest impact on memory usage.

[mclingo]

Hi, just wondering if there are any advantages or pitfalls not using FSE, havent really used it for a while now, hasnt been required on AMD cards for HDR or 3D for a while

[el Filou]

When using native hardware decoding, reducing the decode queue (still mistakenly called 'CPU queue' in settings GUI) also helps reduce VRAM usage.

[VBB]

@mclingo - There is really no reason to use FSE. Since MS added "fullscreen optimizations (https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/demystifying-full-screen-optimizations/)", FSE only works correctly if you disable this feature in the compatibility settings of the player.

[LordX2]

I recommend not setting frames presented in advance above 3 so that is a great way to reduce memory usage.

Windows 10 doesn't seem to like too many frames presented in advance, it can cause un-reported (in madVR's UI) frame glitches/stutters.

Like SamuriHL suggested six or even lower GPU buffers works well on my system. This has the biggest impact on memory usage.

I changed my settings as follows:
CPU Que - down to 8 (does lowering this help with rendering timing?)
GPU que - down to 4
Windows Frames to Present ahead - 3

This definitely reduced the video ram. Just a little bit, but that was all I needed to keep myself from maxing out my video card's 4GB.

I was even able to get chroma back up to AA medium. Although my rendering time is skating the LIMIT at between 36 and 39ms. I did notice it 'steal' one of the read ahead frames a couple of times - but they did their job, and no lost frame. So far at least.

I know I can reduce the Chroma to LOW if needed, and that will shave those rendering times down to 33.

Speaking of which, I played a 25FPS 4k file (a planet earth II) - and just this little bit of extra FPS was enough to tip the scale. I HAD to lower chroma to low in order to watch that file.

Separate Question: Does LUMA upscaling only come into play when actually upscaling? Like watching 1080p on my 4k screen? I only ever see it in CTRL-J when I am watching 1080p content.

[SamuriHL]

Yes, unless you're insane and upscale 4K->8k and downscale it. :D (Don't ask. no, I'm not one of those people....yet). I'm glad you got it working well.

Now I can break your heart. Unfortunately, since you are right on the edge for 23.976fps, there's an almost 0 chance of playing 60fps UHD movies on that card without dropping frames. At least not with these settings. Trust me, I have to make a ton of compromises myself with the 2070 to do it. Fortunately (?!) there's not a lot of 60fps UHD content just yet, but, be aware of the limitation.

[LordX2]

Yes, unless you're insane and upscale 4K->8k and downscale it. :D (Don't ask. no, I'm not one of those people....yet). I'm glad you got it working well.

Now I can break your heart. Unfortunately, since you are right on the edge for 23.976fps, there's an almost 0 chance of playing 60fps UHD movies on that card without dropping frames. At least not with these settings. Trust me, I have to make a ton of compromises myself with the 2070 to do it. Fortunately (?!) there's not a lot of 60fps UHD content just yet, but, be aware of the limitation.

Will lowering the CPU que even more help with rendering times? Or is that only RAM?

Someone suggested ticking the Compromise Tone & Gamut box - is that something worth trying? Makes me nervous when I see the 3 read ahead frames getting used.

I tried to play a 720p 60fps file the other day (a sporting event) - and it didn't like that at ALL.. Thankfully I have MPV Player to help with those files. MPV player does basic HDR to SDR, so uses very little GPU.

[Asmodian]

Only RAM.

If you need faster you can tick it, if not it isn't better.

You might setup profiles for 720p60 or use much faster luma scaling options. You are probably doubling it twice which is very hard but you don't need to loose all the benefits of madVR to solve it. :)

[huhn]

the CPU name is misleading it's Vram for native decoder.

don't go below 16 as far as i know these frames are actually used by the decoder and 16 ref frames are a thing.

i have no proof for the need of 16 for ref frames.

[LordX2]

So.. checking the box for compromise on Tone & Gamut made a HUGE difference. HUGE.

From almost 40ms rendering times to 29ms rendering times.

Was enough of a performance savings that I was able to up the chroma to AA HIGH again. Now hovering between 33 and 35ms rendering times.

The savings was enough to even play the 25fps planet earth II file without any playback issues.

I feel like I am getting pretty damn close to finding the optimal settings for my GTX 1650 Super. I may have already!

Any opinions on the Soulnight's Mirror contrast curve? I am liking it so far.

[SamuriHL]

You'll DEFINITELY need profiles for 60fps content. I do for my 2070, as well. There's all kinds of different compromises you can create for your different profiles.

[el Filou]

don't go below 16 as far as i know these frames are actually used by the decoder and 16 ref frames are a thing. i have no proof for the need of 16 for ref frames.I tested with a 9 ref frames file and madVR queue to 4 and it decoded just fine.
Pretty sure this only represents the number of 'usable' frames madVR asks the decoder to output and is independent of reference frames which is stuff internal to the decoder.
Of course reference frames for decoding use additional RAM too.

[QBhd]

@LordX2... you will at some point need a good set of profiles so that you do not need to go in and change settings for different content (res, frame rate, etc)... Here is a copy of mine, I have not edited it for some time and I am sure I have a lot of duplicate settings now... The wonder of upgrading to a much faster card, higher settings can go a lot further :P

if (srcHeight < 721) and (deintFps < 25) "720p23"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (bitdepth > 8) "1080p23 HDR"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (deintFps < 25) "1080p23"
elseif (srcHeight < 2161) and (deintFps < 25) "2160p23"
elseif (srcHeight < 721) and (deintFps < 26) "720p25"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (deintFps < 26) "1080p25"
elseif (srcHeight < 721) and (deintFps < 31) "720p29"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (deintFps < 31) "1080p29"
elseif (srcHeight < 2161) and (deintFps < 31) "2160p29"
elseif (srcHeight < 721) and (deintFps < 51) "720p50"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (deintFps < 51) "1080p50"
elseif (srcHeight < 721) and (deintFps < 61) "720p59"
elseif (srcHeight < 1081) and (deintFps < 61) "1080p59"
elseif (srcHeight < 2161) and (deintFps < 61) "2160p59"

QB

[huhn]

I tested with a 9 ref frames file and madVR queue to 4 and it decoded just fine.
Pretty sure this only represents the number of 'usable' frames madVR asks the decoder to output and is independent of reference frames which is stuff internal to the decoder.
Of course reference frames for decoding use additional RAM too.

i know for sure that it affects decoding VP9 with to many frames it will corrupt the image that's why it's limited now.

[LordX2]

So, looking at the settings I attached on the last page - is there something other than Chroma I should have upped?

I went from Chroma AA Low to Chroma AA High after ticking the compromise for tone and gamut, but if there is something else that would have made more sense to crank up rather than chroma, I am all ears.

[LordX2]

Clock Deviation.... it is the one thing left that will get me a dropped frame every now and then.

When all settles out, it estimates 1 dropped frame every 1.07 hours.

This frame ALWAYS drops. The buffer doesn't dip or anything - the frame just drops.

My refresh is damn close to source - 23.97612

What else can get clock deviation tighter? If I could get it over 2 hours - I would be set.

[Klaus1189]

Sorry for offtopic, but how is this effect called of the background:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07FYdnEawAQ&t=47

I thought it is posterization, but I am not sure about it. I could also be banding. Do you think this "is a bug or a feature" of the video, I mean is it intentional?

[mclingo]

it wont be intentional., I see this kind of thing all the time, its not clear though if it was badly compressed before it was uploaded or whether this is purely caused by the youtube algo, this is why I worry about us losing blurays, this crap is all over streaming, its ruining TV shows for me, game of thrones was completely unwatchable on streaming.

[Klaus1189]

I agree it looks really bad ...

[huhn]

banding so bad it has macro blocking.
deband low fixes most of the banding mid pretty much all and leaves some macroblocks high fixes it pretty much completely i haven'T really checked it in detail.

[Klaus1189]

How can it be this bad? Low encoder settings, wrong settings in NLE, ... ?

[SamuriHL]

Apparently you've never been subjected to xfinity's "enhanced hd" encoding of 1080 content to 720p. LOL

[huhn]

this is such a trivial task for a video codec (mostly static image) this should be a source problem i'm not even gonna start where they could have failed. i have seen stuff on BD where is is ultra high quality in comparison.

just "professionals" been "professionals".

[Klaus1189]

Apparently you've never been subjected to xfinity's "enhanced hd" encoding of 1080 content to 720p. LOL

No, link or info please

[SamuriHL]

No, link or info please

Please understand this is a lengthy thread.

https://www.tivocommunity.com/community/index.php?threads/busted-comcast-down-converts-native-1080i-channels-to-720p.542203/

But the upshot is that Comcast (Xfinity) is downrezzing 1080i mpeg2 channels (including channels like HBO) to low bitrate (~3mbps) 720p even on their cable distribution network. The claimed reason is so they can have a unified experience between Xfinity Stream and their cable offering. Their encoder has improved slightly over the past few years, but only slightly and still at ultra low bitrate. The real reason they did this was to create more bandwidth for faster internet (docsis 3.1).

The reason I bring this up in the madvr thread is that madvr can restore some of this with some pretty aggressive settings. Quite frankly, more than my 2070 can realistically drive. I've got it compromised and still looking WAY better than the native nonsense they try to pass off as "enhanced hd". madvr is remarkable in what it can do, but, should it have to be restoring crappily encoded video from a content distributor? I'm gonna go with NO given that most streaming services offer 1080p dd+ at a bare minimum.

[LordX2]

I wasn't able to set custom res in madvr - my nvidia driver kept refusing it.

I am only losing 1 frame per hour, so it's not the biggest deal.

With something SO close, I wish there were a way to 'speed up' the audio to match the display. In my case it is 0.001% off - so I wouldn't notice the audio shift at all.

I know other players try this. If I am not mistaken, MPV player has a config line similar to: video-sync=display-refresh - or something like that.

I have no idea how hard something like that is to 'code', but seems like it would be the easier fix for a majority of users.

PS - I wish that drop could be taken from the display ahead frames. It never seems to though, it always just drops and is visible. If there was a way to force the dropped frame to come from the buffered frames, it wouldn't even be something we would all notice.

[Asmodian]

Getting custom resolutions to work is the best way to do it but custom resolutions can be a huge pain. CRU (https://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-Custom-Resolution-Utility-CRU) is the most effective tool I know of, if madVR's doesn't work (common), but it can cause problems if you get too adventurous so be careful. You won't cause permanent damage but an OS reinstall might be the easiest way out if you don't have another display.

Reclock is how to do this with madVR as far as I know. I prefer smooth motion myself so I haven't used Reclock for a long time, but that is using 120+ Hz screens where smooth motion is better than it is at 60 Hz. The higher the better for smooth motion.

PS - I wish that drop could be taken from the display ahead frames. It never seems to though, it always just drops and is visible. If there was a way to force the dropped frame to come from the buffered frames, it wouldn't even be something we would all notice.

This drop is intentional to keep the audio and video synced. What happens is that the video and audio slowly drift out of sync until the video is an entire frame ahead or behind when madVR drops or repeats a frame to get back in sync. There is simply no way to improve this without losing AV sync (or messing with the audio instead, e.g. Reclock).

Or doing something crazy like smooth motion. ;)