madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) [Archive] - Page 348

ThurstonX

3rd February 2013, 17:39

But those are RGB inputs, not YCbCr. I take it you meant in your earlier post you set CCC too Full RGB along with MadVR, because asfaik theres no way to get Mad Vr to accept YCbCr.
I'm not sure I follow. Your original question was:

"Whats the difference between setting YCbCr and RGB and which should be used with MadVR?"

as relates to the Pixel Color Format setting in CCC. You can have it set to YCbCr 4:4:4 and still get a picture using madVR, but it might not (probably won't?) look very good. That was my experience anyway, after updating the CCC + drivers. Sometimes AMD/ATI updates reset the Pixel Color Format, which is annoying.

I don't see a setting in madVR related to RGB levels OTHER THAN the setting I named. And that is how madVR outputs to the display device, unless I'm seriously confused (a distinct possibility).

So, where in madVR, other than that option, can I set some RGB option?

In LAV Video I have it set to "PC (0-255)" for "RGB Output levels (for YUV -> RGB conversion)".

Dodgexander

3rd February 2013, 18:36

I'm not sure I follow. Your original question was:

"Whats the difference between setting YCbCr and RGB and which should be used with MadVR?"

as relates to the Pixel Color Format setting in CCC. You can have it set to YCbCr 4:4:4 and still get a picture using madVR, but it might not (probably won't?) look very good. That was my experience anyway, after updating the CCC + drivers. Sometimes AMD/ATI updates reset the Pixel Color Format, which is annoying.

I don't see a setting in madVR related to RGB levels OTHER THAN the setting I named. And that is how madVR outputs to the display device, unless I'm seriously confused (a distinct possibility).

So, where in madVR, other than that option, can I set some RGB option?

In LAV Video I have it set to "PC (0-255)" for "RGB Output levels (for YUV -> RGB conversion)".

Anecdotally, I can tell you the only way to get a decent pic on my LED LCD TV is to have Catalyst Control Center set to Full RGB. I then tell madVR that my display expects YCbCr.

When you mentioned setting madVR to expect YCbCr, you meant just the video levels of 0-255? There isn't a way to tell MadVR to use YCbCr over RGB, which is why your post confused me, I was wondering if I was missing something!:D

Yet again - why not?
Also there is source material in it. E.g. screen capture. Or 2x downscaling.

What I mean is, why are these options there on a PS3 or Blu Ray player for example?

Why have extra colour spaces when theres no source material to take advantage of it. For a PC I understand why this conversion takes place, but why on a PS3 or Blu Ray player?

I thought "deep colour" and "extra white and black" was a feature of HD and that it would be utilized when playing back a BRD. So it turns out the Colour is just the same quality as DVD??

Heuer

3rd February 2013, 19:21

Do you have the "delay playback start until render queue is full" option disabled? 701 dropped frames is a lot.
I just get a single repeated frame on the stats when I start playback.

Yes it is disabled. With it enabled dropped frames drops to ~60 and stays there.

ThurstonX

3rd February 2013, 19:21

When you mentioned setting madVR to expect YCbCr, you meant just the video levels of 0-255? There isn't a way to tell MadVR to use YCbCr over RGB, which is why your post confused me, I was wondering if I was missing something!:D

That's why I was very specific about what option to which I was referring ;) If I understand the option, it's telling madVR what level of RGB the display expects. So, nothing to do with what is being sent to madVR. And since madVR is the renderer, it's getting the signal from the decoder, yes? So if, e.g., LAV Video is set to "RGB Output levels PC (0-255)," then that's what madVR is getting.

What I mean is, why are these options there on a PS3 or Blu Ray player for example?

Why have extra colour spaces when theres no source material to take advantage of it. For a PC I understand why this conversion takes place, but why on a PS3 or Blu Ray player?

I thought "deep colour" and "extra white and black" was a feature of HD and that it would be utilized when playing back a BRD. So it turns out the Colour is just the same quality as DVD??
re: why are those options available in players, I think that "Choosing a Color Space" article (thanks! btw; an excellent read for newbs like me) explains it pretty well in "The Conversion Chain" section.

"First the video needs to be converted from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2, then to 4:4:4, then to RGB, and finally it can be fed to the display controller. This is the same process no matter what display technology is being used, whether LCD, DLP, plasma, or CRT." ...

...and on from there. So, if I understand that section correctly, 4:4:4 (or even RGB?) from the player *may* be better than having the display do the conversion. And from what others have said over the past day or so, displays aren't so great at that.

So am I correct if I say...
if one sets their video card to the Pixel Color Format (AMD name) RGB 4:4:4 (Full RGB), the card is doing the conversion and outputting the converted signal to the display, and the display is not doing any conversion.

In the end, I thought this paragraph summed it up pretty well:

"Unfortunately device makers tend not to reveal the exact processing steps they use internally, or the algorithms they use to convert various color spaces to RGB. Some use different algorithms depending on which color space is fed in. The bottom line is to assume nothing, and test every combination."

So I tested and settled on what looks best. Setting my TV's HDMI input to the "PC" label disables too many options (ratios, as well as Advanced stuff), and I couldn't see a difference, at least when watching US cable TV.

Sorry if this is hijacking the thread. Thanks for indulging. I'll shutup now :D

6233638

4th February 2013, 02:18

My Sony TV has a mode that allows full 4:4:4 with RGB, and seems to pass all the tests people made up for 4:4:4 support, however it disables its 24p cinema processing then (which makes the video smoother without the "artificial" feel of full interpolation), and i rather have that.
With video content, 4:2:2 is already much better then 4:2:0, and even if i loose some detail in chroma again, its not *that* obvious, while losing the 24p cinema mode is quite obvious (to me - which is what counts :p)My Sony LCD is the same - in the Game or Graphics scene mode, it displays RGB or 4:4:4 YCC at full resolution, but in all other modes that is lowered to 4:2:2.

The game/graphics modes still display 24p correctly, but disable MotionFlow interpolation (which is very good at reducing judder but not introducing a sped-up look) and put the set into a lower contrast mode that is optimized for latency rather than image quality.

The local dimming no longer turns backlight zones off, and drops contrast to about 3,500:1. To improve latency, it also decouples the backlight array from the LCD panel, with about a frame of latency between them. This is not really a problem at only 3,500:1 contrast, but would have been if it allowed the local dimming zones to be turned off, as it does in the Theater mode.

That said, the benefits of madVR are still visible when the set processes in 4:2:2, and you can still tell the difference between a good and bad chroma scaling algorithm (e.g. aliasing, loss of saturation) but it's certainly not as obvious as it is in the Game/Graphics modes. (where I do all my testing/evaluation)

Yes, but why do these modes exist if there is no source material in it?Because displays themselves are made up of RGB subpixels, and are a 4:4:4 display. (technically 4:4:4 refers to YCC though) There are clear benefits when using good chroma upsampling to go from 4:2:0 to RGB with madVR.

And PC sources are all RGB native, as are console games.

I thought "deep colour" and "extra white and black" was a feature of HD and that it would be utilized when playing back a BRD. So it turns out the Colour is just the same quality as DVD??4:2:0 means that the Chroma ("color") channel is 1/4 the resolution of the Luma channel.

With Blu-ray that means a 1920x1080 Luma channel, with a 960x540 Chroma channel.
With DVD you have a 720x480 Luma channel and a 360x240 Chroma channel. (or 720x576 and 360x288 if it's PAL)

So both being encoded using 4:2:0 does not make them "the same".

So am I correct if I say...
if one sets their video card to the Pixel Color Format (AMD name) RGB 4:4:4 (Full RGB), the card is doing the conversion and outputting the converted signal to the display, and the display is not doing any conversion.madVR converts from 4:2:0 YCC to RGB with high precision.

Computers render natively in 0-255 RGB. So by setting your video card to output 0-255 "Full" RGB you avoid any further conversions in your PC.

If your output is Full/Limited YCC, or Limited 16-235 RGB, then the video card is performing a conversion on the output - and in most cases, that should be avoided, as video cards typically do not do it with enough precision.

Once it ends up at your display, you have no idea what it is doing with the image really. But typically displays will be using more internal precision than your video card does when performing these conversions, and there's nothing you can do about it anyway.

What seems to happen these days, is that most displays convert everything to 4:2:2 YCC internally for processing (grayscale, gamma, CMS etc) which then must end up as RGB because pretty much all displays are made up of RGB subpixels.

Qaq

4th February 2013, 08:51

That said, the benefits of madVR are still visible when the set processes in 4:2:2, and you can still tell the difference between a good and bad chroma scaling algorithm (e.g. aliasing, loss of saturation) but it's certainly not as obvious as it is in the Game/Graphics modes. (where I do all my testing/evaluation).
.......
What seems to happen these days, is that most displays convert everything to 4:2:2 YCC internally for processing (grayscale, gamma, CMS etc) which then must end up as RGB because pretty much all displays are made up of RGB subpixels.
Thanks, interesting. Being madVR's user would you buy a 4:2:2 TV (no 4:4:4 RGB at all)?

6233638

4th February 2013, 11:19

Thanks, interesting. Being madVR's user would you buy a 4:2:2 TV (no 4:4:4 RGB at all)?If you are only using it for video, 4:2:2 is fine - especially at the distances that most people sit to watch TV.

It does negate some of the benefits of madVR, but doesn't eliminate them.

If you have plans on using a PC hooked up to the display for other reasons though (e.g. browsing the web, gaming) or connecting up video games consoles, I would not want a display that can't display RGB at full resolution, because those sources are RGB native.

I tried taking some photographs to illustrate the differences between various scaling algorithms when displayed at 4:2:2 and 4:4:4, but unfortunately they don't show it as clearly as I had hoped. What I did find though, was that with my TV operating at 4:2:2 - at least with the sample that I tried - there is zero difference between Jinc 3 AR and Lanczos 3 AR Chroma. They're not just "very close" or "similar" - I can layer the images on top of each other in Photoshop and use the "difference" layer blending tool, and nothing shows up.

4:2:2 chroma really does seem to serve as an "equalizer" and remove a lot of the differences between algorithms. But you can still tell the difference between a soft chroma algorithm and a sharp one. It's more difficult to see differences in aliasing though.

Comparing Nearest Neighbor scaling probably shows off the differences between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 the clearest - it removes a lot of the aliasing. (it's still visible in person - the photo makes it look like it just disappeared)
http://www.abload.de/img/nearestc3kmv.gif

But that's not a good thing - that shows just how much is being thrown away with 4:2:2, and how much it's blurring chroma as a result.

I already mentioned that it makes Jinc 3 AR and Lanczos 3 AR look identical, making Jinc pointless for chroma if your set only displays 4:2:2. I wish I had though to test it, but I suspect that there would be no difference between Bicubic 75 AR and Lanczos 3 AR either, even though there are clear differences between the three of those at 4:4:4.

When you look closer at Jinc in 4:4:4 vs Jinc in 4:2:2 for example, you notice that it is not as sharp, edges look fuzzy, and the finer lines are not as bright. If you look at the left of the A here, you see that it is not uniformly lit at 4:2:2
http://www.abload.de/img/jincvpk6k.gif

These things are much easier to see on the display itself rather than these photographs though.

Keep in mind that only chroma scaling is affected - luma scaling should be no different in 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, and that is going to be much more noticeable than chroma scaling anyway.

I think this is good news though - it shows that upscaling chroma to 4:4:4/RGB with madVR does indeed make sense.

I've seen many people argue that there's no point for a television to display full 4:4:4/RGB resolution at all because video sources are 4:2:0 native anyway - well this clearly shows that there is a benefit to it.

That's not to say it's a massive difference and that you should avoid buying a display if it won't pass full RGB resolution, but it's nice to know that it can make a difference.

nevcairiel

4th February 2013, 12:30

Now they just need to build a TV that can do its processing in 4:4:4. Sadly most consumer devices just send 4:2:2 over the HDMI link, so the TV people don't really see the point in increasing the cost of the Video/Film processor, if most Video/Film content wouldn't make use of it anyway. Usually only 4:4:4 content are games, and many TVs have a 4:4:4 Games mode (or Graphics/PC modes, etc), it just doesn't do the Film processing (because its not needed for Games anyway!)

DragonQ

4th February 2013, 13:29

Most videophiles probably disable most if not all post-processing anyway, so the PC/Game mode would probably be fine on at least some displays (depending on which options are missing).

nevcairiel

4th February 2013, 13:40

Personally i would miss Sonys MotionFlow processing, in its "Clear" mode it really works well for 24p content without any artifacts or giving it the typical look of interpolation (which i personally don't like), which is why i don't use the Game mode.

6233638

4th February 2013, 14:04

Most videophiles probably disable most if not all post-processing anyway, so the PC/Game mode would probably be fine on at least some displays (depending on which options are missing).Other than interpolation, you don't miss much with most of Sony's displays when switching to the Game/Graphics modes.

But with my set having the Full LED backlight with local dimming, instead of CCFL or Edge LED, you need to use one of the 4:2:2 modes to use it to its full potential. ("infinite" contrast vs 3500:1)
Sony have a "Theater" button on the remote though, so I can leave it in Game Mode when using my PC (I use it as a monitor for the internet & gaming) and I just need to press that when watching films to switch.

With other displays it is not so convenient to switch, and many of them lose a lot of options when switching into their game mode.

Personally i would miss Sonys MotionFlow processing, in its "Clear" mode it really works well for 24p content without any artifacts or giving it the typical look of interpolation (which i personally don't like), which is why i don't use the Game mode.I find there can be artifacts when the background is panning and subtitles are on-screen, or panning shots over very complex backgrounds.
But I can't watch film without MotionFlow now either. Raw 24p, even on OLED or CRT displays, judders too much. (I have tested with both) I use the "Clear 2" option, which has sharper motion, but more flicker and less brightness, as it uses more aggressive backlight scanning.

Prior to the introduction of their 240Hz MotionFlow (which may also exist in newer 120Hz sets from them) I was very anti-interpolation, because I could not stand how things looked. I have yet to see anything I like as much as Sony's MotionFlow.

I really do wish that I had the option to enable backlight scanning without interpolation on my set in game mode though - I think that's what the "Impulse" option is on newer models.

Qaq

4th February 2013, 17:06

I think this is good news though - it shows that upscaling chroma to 4:4:4/RGB with madVR does indeed make sense.

I've seen many people argue that there's no point for a television to display full 4:4:4/RGB resolution at all because video sources are 4:2:0 native anyway - well this clearly shows that there is a benefit to it.

That's not to say it's a massive difference and that you should avoid buying a display if it won't pass full RGB resolution, but it's nice to know that it can make a difference.
No doubts there. Thanks a lot, as always. Very interesting to read.
Being an AV purist I guess I'll stick to 4:4:4 TVs though, cause right (natural looking) colors are even more important to me than luma handling. I really can't stand any compromises in colors. Another reason that with 4:4:4 I'm safe, placebo or not - I know things just can't be better )
IMO, HTPC community should pay more attention to such things, otherwise how can we expect a proper PC support from TVs industry.

G_M_C

4th February 2013, 18:57

Chipping in on the bitdepth used by TV-discussion; I found this image in the service manual of mu generation Panny plasma (PZ85). Look at the arrow i placed. When i read this i suspect the panny uses 10bit processing. But i cant see if the HDMI or A/D converter is outputting YUV/RGB/4:2:2/4:4:4 to the main CPU. One document suggests YUV data, not known if 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, another suggests RGB24. If it really is 4:2:2, as 6233638's mentions most display work with, than it would make a strong point to have madVR be able to output 10 bit 4:2:2.

The main CPU seems to output RGB 24 to the display itself though.

http://tweakers.net/ext/f/UFs0En3FuiSVZiXavgUZ4eU4/medium.png (http://tweakers.net/ext/f/UFs0En3FuiSVZiXavgUZ4eU4/full.png)

ThurstonX

4th February 2013, 19:02

madVR converts from 4:2:0 YCC to RGB with high precision.

Computers render natively in 0-255 RGB. So by setting your video card to output 0-255 "Full" RGB you avoid any further conversions in your PC.

If your output is Full/Limited YCC, or Limited 16-235 RGB, then the video card is performing a conversion on the output - and in most cases, that should be avoided, as video cards typically do not do it with enough precision.

Once it ends up at your display, you have no idea what it is doing with the image really. But typically displays will be using more internal precision than your video card does when performing these conversions, and there's nothing you can do about it anyway.

What seems to happen these days, is that most displays convert everything to 4:2:2 YCC internally for processing (grayscale, gamma, CMS etc) which then must end up as RGB because pretty much all displays are made up of RGB subpixels.

Thanks a lot for the info. Helps me get my head around the process chain, and correct some misunderstanding :)

Budtz

4th February 2013, 19:15

I seem to have trouble playing 29.970fps material. it is very choppy and movement and pannings and such look quite terrible. its not specific to madvr though. i get it every player i try. are there any settings i can try? I live in denmark. is it normal to have movies or a series or simlar content in 30fps in stead of around 24fps?

got3nks

4th February 2013, 21:23

Hello guys, I'm new to MPC HC and madVR+LAV filters.

I have one huge issue. If I enable "exclusive mode" when entering full screen I get a red text popping out "Out of memory", although the video in the background is still playing just fine.
Any suggestions?

GPU: Palit Nvidia GeForce GTX460 (1024MB GDDR5)
CPU: Intel Core i5 750 Lynnfield 2,66 Ghz (socket LGA1156)
RAM: 4GB (2x2GB) DDR3 1333Mhz CL9

raul31

4th February 2013, 22:15

fairchild

4th February 2013, 22:18

Hi guys,
i recently configured MPC-HC, with the LAV filters & madVR.
for some reason though, when i press "control-J", it shows the composition rate to be 30Hz, when it SHOULD be 60Hz. playback is obviously not correct with this rate.
what can i do to correct this?
thanks videophiles!

That happens to me sometimes with my system and card. I think it might be some bug with ATI drivers, not sure if this happens with Nvidia or Intel cards.

If this bug didn't happen, I could run perfectly with Fullscreen Windowed mode, but alas when the composition rate changes to 30hz, it's super choppy and terrible.

The only fix I've been able to run is to use Full Screen Exclusive mode (FSE), since this bypasses the composition mode/rate.

Another alternative is to disable the composition altogether either through the MadVR option or by using a Basic theme in Windows, but then I get screen tearing anyways unless I'm in FSE mode.

dansrfe

4th February 2013, 23:22

First we had to worry about our GPUs post-processing and now we have to worry about our TVs post-processing... it's a never ending struggle :scared:

QBhd

5th February 2013, 01:49

aufkrawall

5th February 2013, 18:13

I got a new display which supports 50Hz.
I use this mode for 23.976 videos with Reclock.
The issue is that when I use madVR's display mode changer, it automatically changes to the wrong resolution, e.g. 60Hz for those reclocked movies.
Is there a way to solve this?

Thanks.

Edit: Nevermind, seems like I got it working with custom resolutions.

dansrfe

5th February 2013, 18:31

Just a tip for everyone out there (who doesn't already know this):

You can set custom resolutions with ATI cards (and NVidia cards) as well by using this: http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-Custom-Resolution-Utility-CRU

So in addition to the standard 60Hz resolution supported by my monitor out of the box, I also have custom resolutions set for 48Hz and 50Hz. This combined with Reclock gives me the smoothest motion I can get from my monitor sans using something like SVP.

DragonQ

5th February 2013, 19:05

I doubt you can just use custom resolutions with any monitor. I tried that on my new work monitor yesterday (others claimed it worked fine) and it broke the drivers - had to remove them manually.

Jong

5th February 2013, 19:59

I also used to have a 50hz TV that would accept 48hz custom timings but then the TV simply introduced judder, crudely repeating frames. Definitely something that has to be tested carefully!

DragonQ

5th February 2013, 21:25

I also used to have a 50hz TV that would accept 48hz custom timings but then the TV simply introduced judder, crudely repeating frames. Definitely something that has to be tested carefully!
Yeah, my NEC 24WMGX3 supports 1080p/50 over HDMI (not DVI for some reason) but it just introduces tearing. Clearly no native support for anything other than 60 Hz.

6233638

5th February 2013, 22:32

Asmodian

6th February 2013, 00:33

CRU seems to work much better than Nvidia's custom resolution utility for me. It adds another refresh rate and resolution option as if it was supported by the monitor.

You can also edit the "normal" 60Hz to 59 or anything you want.

It is clean and doesn't do that switching to 16 bit color that keeps happening when using Nvidia's custom resolutions to setup refresh rates at resolutions that already exist (like adding 72Hz to a monitor that reports 60 as the only option). I assume it also keeps Nvidia using Full range RGB as it looks like a native PC resolution to the driver.

I was able to make Windows default to 2560x1600@60 on my 30" by swapping the first option of 1280x800@60 with the second option in CRU.

Of course if your hardware really doesn't support the resolution at the refresh rate CRU doesn't help.

I don't know about Windows 8.

druneau

6th February 2013, 02:10

I've been using CRU for a while now. I've had only good experiences with this utility.

I've found that you can even bypass the monitor's resolutions by unchecking "Include extension block". Then I only use 4 "Detailed resolutions".

The author of the software does mention that it's a good idea to keep 60hz in the list as a fallback.

I can't confirm/comment on if it can be used to fix nvidia 23/24p issue since I run an AMD 7970.

Edit: And I'm on windows 8

6233638

6th February 2013, 04:00

I can't confirm/comment on if it can be used to fix nvidia 23/24p issue since I run an AMD 7970.

Edit: And I'm on windows 8I've never had anyone confirm whether this issue also affects AMD or Intel and is a Windows 8 issue, or if it's a Nvidia issue on Windows 8.

Can you check whether madVR is switching to 23/59 or 24/60 when you have the refresh rate switcher set to go to 24/60 in Fullscreen Exclusive mode? (hit ctrl+j when playing)

Mangix

6th February 2013, 10:11

I've never had anyone confirm whether this issue also affects AMD or Intel and is a Windows 8 issue, or if it's a Nvidia issue on Windows 8.

Can you check whether madVR is switching to 23/59 or 24/60 when you have the refresh rate switcher set to go to 24/60 in Fullscreen Exclusive mode? (hit ctrl+j when playing)

I don't know the answer but in my experience, madVR behaves differently when using the two different exclusive modes.

The new one tends to use HDTV resolutions if available(on nvidia cards anyway) and the old one tends to do it right.

One example is a 30fps video I have. Even though the refresh rate was set to 60Hz, when going to exclusive mode with the new path, it switches to 59.94Hz which isn't even set anywhere(some nvidia driver quirk). The old exclusive path does not do this.

There was also the time when I didn't use CRU to modify the monitor data(well, it's a TV actually). The new exclusive path would switch to an HDTV resolution which crushed colors whereas the old path did not do this.

The refresh rate switcher does not seem to matter in these situations in my experience.

Budtz

6th February 2013, 17:53

any1 that could help me out on that 30fps video files stutters problem? i hav etryed on different players an screens and its all the same

druneau

7th February 2013, 02:42

I've never had anyone confirm whether this issue also affects AMD or Intel and is a Windows 8 issue, or if it's a Nvidia issue on Windows 8.

Can you check whether madVR is switching to 23/59 or 24/60 when you have the refresh rate switcher set to go to 24/60 in Fullscreen Exclusive mode? (hit ctrl+j when playing)

I'm not sure how I'd test this exactly.

If I reset all my resolutions, I don't have 23 or 24p as a refresh rate choice. And Manually I usually only add one of the two.

If I create 4 custom resolutions, 23, 24, 59, 60. Then let madvr auto choose would the scenario give me the information you're looking for?

Edit: I can't get 23 AND 24 in the list at the same time. Same thing with 59 and 60. I only see 24 and 60. If I only add 23.976 and 59.994, still displayed in the windows list as 24 and 60...

hulkss

7th February 2013, 04:28

I'm a user of JRiver Media Center in an HTPC. Video playback is achieved with LAV Filters and madVR.

I want to apply color management using a .3dLUT in madVR to correct my projector. The short story to accomplish this is:

1. Use ArgyllCMS with dispcalGUI to generate a XYZ LUT + Matrix.
2. Install and load the ICC profile created with Windows 7 color management.
3. Use LinkICCGUI (from the TI3 Parser toolset) to generate the .3dLUT for madVR.
4. Setup madVR to use the 3D LUT.

My question is: If I uncheck the box (no auto-calibrate) in the GUI window shown below when generating the .3dLUT, will the .3dLUT be made to work properly along with the ICC profile loaded by Windows 7 (both the ICC profile and the .3dLUT in madVR will be active):confused:

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/8360/linkiccgui.png

fallengt

7th February 2013, 14:50

I think madvr doesn't work with 3dlut file generated by ArgyllCMS, use yCMS instead.

I did the same route as you while ago, got weird result, the color went off badly but probally just me.

dansrfe

7th February 2013, 18:50

For a first time calibator with an i1Display Pro what are the steps I should take to correct my monitor in Windows and in madVR? There is quite a bit of information online but I'm still not sure exactly which softwares to use or in what order to use them. Thanks!

yahyoh

7th February 2013, 19:41

any1 that could help me out on that 30fps video files stutters problem? i hav etryed on different players an screens and its all the same

what are u playing ? whats ur setting ? :rolleyes:

yahyoh

7th February 2013, 19:51

That happens to me sometimes with my system and card. I think it might be some bug with ATI drivers, not sure if this happens with Nvidia or Intel cards.

If this bug didn't happen, I could run perfectly with Fullscreen Windowed mode, but alas when the composition rate changes to 30hz, it's super choppy and terrible.

The only fix I've been able to run is to use Full Screen Exclusive mode (FSE), since this bypasses the composition mode/rate.

Another alternative is to disable the composition altogether either through the MadVR option or by using a Basic theme in Windows, but then I get screen tearing anyways unless I'm in FSE mode.

HMM thats weird i have no problem here with AMD GPU :o
even though i have shitty one :eek:

but with Full Screen Exclusive mode i have little flash happening after changing to full screen mode :(

strangeluck

7th February 2013, 23:54

I've never had anyone confirm whether this issue also affects AMD or Intel and is a Windows 8 issue, or if it's a Nvidia issue on Windows 8.

Can you check whether madVR is switching to 23/59 or 24/60 when you have the refresh rate switcher set to go to 24/60 in Fullscreen Exclusive mode? (hit ctrl+j when playing)

I am running Windows 8 and have an AMD 6750M GPU. MadVR switches to 23/59 when 24/60 is set in the refresh rate switcher when using Full Screen Exclusive Mode. However, I should point out that even trying to force 24/60 (with refresh rate switching in MadVR disabled) in windows or the driver control panel still results in a 23/59 display rate according to MadVR's statistics window. I do not have any custom resolutions configured, just the standard driver settings.

I have no issues with dropped frames as I believe most content is encoded at 23/59 anyway. Should I be concerned?

DragonQ

8th February 2013, 00:27

24p and 60p content is indeed pretty rare (even though films are shot at 24 fps, BDs are normally 23.976p).

leeperry

9th February 2013, 05:33

I think madvr doesn't work with 3dlut file generated by ArgyllCMS
It'd be really great if down the road mVR could support 3DLUT and .cal files from Argyll indeed http://forum.slysoft.com/images/smilies/agreed.gif

And BTW I've been rolling gamuts quite a bit lately on BD's and there really doesn't seem to be any hard rule.....IME it's like a 50/50 share between SMPTE-C and REC.709. Sometimes colors look natural in REC.709 and grossly undersatured in SMPTE-C, and sometimes flesh tones become unbearably greenish in REC.709. Makes you wonder how ppl with wide gamut displays can watch movies at all.

Asmodian

9th February 2013, 07:47

Makes you wonder how ppl with wide gamut displays can watch movies at all.

From my experience until madVR with yCMS I couldn't watch movies on my 30" wide gamut. Skin tones were terrible. MadVR made that monitor a lot better. Now I just need a solution for web video.

maxwell532

9th February 2013, 11:15

Hello, I am having a Windows 8 (Pro x64) specific problem, or at least I had zero problems while using Windows 7 with the same setup. I tried searching but didn't seem to find anyone else with a similar problem.
I am using latest versions of madVR and LAV with MPCHC.

The problem is playback of any 1080p content or 10-bit content of 720p or better (I only have 720p 10-bit videos right now so not 100% sure about that but it would make sense that higher resolution videos don't play better).

I played 20 seconds of Big Buck Bunny 720p and 1080p to demonstrate and here are the results:
720p (http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3235/33486937.jpg)
1080p (http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/1007/81023035.jpg)

So the 720p version plays fine with 0 dropped frames but the 1080p version goes straight to slideshow (well it plays fine for about 2 seconds after opening the video). Audio plays without problems.

I am using Jinc3AR+Jinc3AR+CatmullAR&LL which I used with Windows 7 too. I tried other algorithms too but am getting same results with every combination. I have pretty much default settings on everything else.

My specs are:
AMD Phenom II X6 1055T
Nvidia GeForce GTX 460 1GB (313.96 beta driver. Tried also the latest WHQL one.)
4GB RAM

GPU load stays at 32% playing the 720p version and jumps around ~8%-35% with the 1080p version.

I also get choppy playback using the MPCHC internal filters+madVR but LAV+EVR is fine.

Any help would be much appreciated. (Except: "Stop using Windows 8." :))

I was fiddling with the MPCHC settings (switching around using MPC internal filters instead of LAV filters and using EVR instead of madVR) while writing this post and 10-bit 720p videos seem to be playing fine right now with madVR+LAV Jinc3AR+Jinc3AR. They weren't when I started writing this. This happened before also: 720p 10-bit works perfectly -> I change some settings -> (iirc I changed the upscale algorithms to Lanczos the last time) the videos start acting up with the new settings and changing them back the way they were before doesn't fix it. So for some reason, although the settings remain the same in the end, 720p 10-bit videos sometimes work perfectly and sometimes they get the same choppy playback. I guess they will start acting up again if I fiddle around some more. This is only affects 720p 10-bit videos, 1080p is always getting choppy playback. Weird.

EDIT: Scratch that, 720p 10-bit is stuttering again even though I didn't change any settings. Well it worked for a while at least...

6233638

9th February 2013, 11:53

It'd be really great if down the road mVR could support 3DLUT and .cal files from Argyll indeed http://forum.slysoft.com/images/smilies/agreed.gif

And BTW I've been rolling gamuts quite a bit lately on BD's and there really doesn't seem to be any hard rule.....IME it's like a 50/50 share between SMPTE-C and REC.709. Sometimes colors look natural in REC.709 and grossly undersatured in SMPTE-C, and sometimes flesh tones become unbearably greenish in REC.709. Makes you wonder how ppl with wide gamut displays can watch movies at all.We definitely do not need ArgyllCMS support. But I would like to see yCMS expanded upon, or replaced.

I don't want to get into a big argument about it again, but ArgyllCMS just doesn't create very good LUTs in my experience, with a range of meters and displays.

I recently read a discussion with one of the big names in LUT creation tools, and they said that using 5-point cube was enough for proper gamut correction (with data was sourced from 17-point measurements) and a 21-point greyscale correction was sufficient. I would argue that with consumer displays and meters, you are probably better off with 9-point greyscale correction.

If we have the ability to manually tweak the points on the cube, then 5-points should be sufficient, without needing 17-point measurements.

cyberbeing

9th February 2013, 14:03

@maxwell532

Assuming that same thing occurs in Windowed Mode with all madVR scalers set to Bilinear, yet all 8-bit videos are fine, it probably means there is something wrong with either your PCI-E interface or GPU memory bandwidth. Personally, I had a similar problem occur in every OS a few weeks proceeding a hardware failure on my old AMD X2 (939) system. Though if this only happens when you boot into Win8 but not Win7, something else could be going on in your case.

[EDIT: After taking a closer look at your images, you are having problems with 8-bit 1080p as well? My problem described above only affected 10-bit 1080p P010 (as well as other 10-bit & 16-bit formats) output to madVR. Whatever you are experiencing must be affecting performance to a greater extent.]

Try the below steps.

1) Confirm GPU-Z the "Bus Interface" PCI-E link shown
2) Run madNV12Test (http://madshi.net/madNV12Test.zip) and compare your Win7 & Win8 Results

3) Try setting Win8 "Power Options" to "High Performance" and confirm that "Link State Power Management" is OFF.
4) Try setting NVIDIA CPL Global Settings "Power Management Mode" to "Prefer Maximum Performance"
5) Reboot
6) Confirm GPU-Z "Bus Interface" PCI-E link shown
7) Run madNV12Test (http://madshi.net/madNV12Test.zip) once again and compare to your other result

8) Flash the latest update to your Motherboard BIOS (if newer available)
9) Reboot
10) Confirm GPU-Z "Bus Interface" PCI-E link shown
11) Run madNV12Test (http://madshi.net/madNV12Test.zip) once again and compare to your other result

12) Provide madshi with zipped madVR debug logs for videos which you are having issues with

leeperry

9th February 2013, 14:18

ArgyllCMS just doesn't create very good LUTs in my experience
Well, it's a quick fix to windows desktop calibration and .cal files(run in "medium" mode) measure perfectly in HCFR: http://thumbnails101.imagebam.com/23645/9345c0236444347.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/9345c0236444347)

The ability to import them into mVR and bypassing the graphic card's CLUT would be a strong asset IMO. I'm only mentioning it because madshi said that he would most likely work on his own CMS as yCMS might remain a WIP for a (long) while.

maxwell532

9th February 2013, 16:39

@cyberbeing

Thanks for your response.

I'm having problems with 8-bit 1080p videos and 10-bit 720p videos. 720p ones being the only 10-bit videos I have right now. 8-bit videos below 1080p are fine. And yes, it does happen when all scalers are set to Bilinear.

I ran madNV12Test before and after setting "Power Management Mode" to "Prefer Maximum Performance" in NVIDIA CPL. Windows 8 "Power Options" were already set to "High Performance" and "Link State Power Management" was OFF.
Before "Prefer Maximum Performance" (http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/8606/madnvbefore.jpg)
After "Prefer Maximum Performance" (http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/3879/madnvafter.jpg)

"Prefer Maximum Performance" didn't have any visible effects on performance exept that Bus Interface stays at "PCI-E 2.0 x16 @ 16 2.0" the whole time while a video is playing. In "Adaptive Mode" it switches back to "PCI-E 1.1 x16 @ x16 1.1" after about 10 seconds of playback. Actually PCI-E was running at x4 mode before but I reseated by graphics card and now it's running at x16. Unfortunately this didn't improve performance either.

My motherboard is ASUS M4A87TD/USB3 (http://www.asus.com/Motherboard/M4A87TDUSB3/) and I had already flashed to the latest BIOS prior to this.

I'm not able to run tests on Windows 7 right now so maybe I will do that later and look into providing those debug logs also.

cyberbeing

9th February 2013, 19:47

All your madNV12Test upload speeds seems particularly low for a Fermi GPU. Your A8R8G8B8 Texture upload speed in particular is below real time. Very similar to what occurred on my AMD X2 system before it failed and wouldn't even POST. Never figured out exactly what failed before I decommissioned it, but it was probably the Motherboard, since I had tried multiple NVIDIA GPU replacements without luck.

The sooner you can test on Win7 the better. If the Win7 results are normal, that would be a good sign that this really is a Win8 software problem of some sort, and not failing hardware.

The following is what I see with my GT440 DDR5 on Windows 8 using a PCI-E 2.0 x8 link (which halves some of these results compared to x16) with 313.96 drivers:

D3D9 Surface speed test:
NV12: upload 582 fps, download 557 fps, trick download failed
YV12: upload 469 fps, download 424 fps, trick download failed
A8R8G8B8: upload 255 fps, download 210 fps, trick download failed

DXVA Surface speed test:
NV12: upload 399 fps, download 597 fps, trick download failed
YV12: upload 465 fps, download 424 fps, trick download failed
A8R8G8B8: upload 257 fps, download 196 fps, trick download failed

A8R8G8B8 Texture speed test:
default: upload 230 fps, download 260 fps
dynamic: upload 287 fps, download 33 fps, trick download 162 fps

Try testing again after changing the following settings in the BIOS:
Disable "PCIE Spread Spectrum"
Set "PCIE Frequency" manually to 100.0 Mhz
Remove any CPU Overclock (Set everything under AI Tweaker to AUTO)
Disabled "Cool n Quiet"
Disable "C1E"
Enabled both ACPI settings

Remember to write down your current BIOS settings before making these changes, so they can be reverted.

@madshi
Which methods (if any) from this legacy test does madVR use to upload video textures nowadays?