madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[ryrynz]

At 59hz on my TV I'm showing 1 frame drop every 30 minutes or so, at 60hz it's 1 frame repeat every 40 seconds, I have smooth motion enabled. I figure 59hz is the preferred option, would I be right?

[Anime Viewer]

There's no specific reason why that should help. It's probably simply "luck" that the render times for Jinc 4taps somehow work better in your specific case than Jinc 3taps. This will probably be different for most other users.

Are we talking about FSE mode or windowed mode? If you have presentation glitches in FSE mode, is it possible that your GPU is switching between different power states / clock speeds? It's possible that using Jinc 4taps demands your GPU enough so that it isn't tempted to clock down, while maybe using Jinc 3taps could be so easy to handle for your GPU that it clocks down once in a while, and maybe clocking could produce such presentation glitches. Just guessing here, of course...

I think you're right about luck being a factor in it not having the dropped frames in that case. Other things (like the videos fps, screens hz, resolution, and other setting) all could have factored into the results. If I isolate other settings that might have been a factor I'll update.

For reference it was windowed mode (I don't use FSE mode since I like to take screen captures of many of the videos I watch, and unless I'm viewing in dual screen extended mode FSE doesn't capture screens correctly). It is always running at high power setting. They clocking up and down I'm not sure about, but I'm kind of doubting that is the case since I think I saw it go from no presentation glitches to a couple every few seconds after updating programs (one KCP version with MPC-HC 1.7.7 installed on top vs a newer version of KCP with the same MPC-HC 1.7.7 that may have had updated versions of LAV and/or subfilters, so those could have factored in as well). I might be able to test it by running GPU-Z at the same time, and see if it changes. However it may be hard to tell for sure given the system is an Optimus system and never uses the Nvidia for everything.
At 59hz on my TV I'm showing 1 frame drop every 30 minutes or so, at 60hz it's 1 frame repeat every 40 seconds, I have smooth motion enabled. I figure 59hz is the preferred option, would I be right?

It depends on the video. If your screen supports the same hz as the fps of the video playing that is the preferred setting. (Except for the case of a variable frame rate video.) Otherwise 59hz or 60hz is the recommended setting. Usually the closer the hz is to a even multiple of the video fps the better the chance of that refresh rate working with said video.

[raymondjpg]

The new windowed presentation path added in v0.87.10 does work quite well in Windows 8.1, at least it does for me. That said, FSE mode is still a tiny bit better for me. Not sure where the problems you're experiencing are coming from. But if you have a perfect experience in windowed mode, there's no need to use FSE mode at the moment. Windows 8 desktop composition works fairly well, that does help madVR's new windowed mode.
FWIW Windowed mode is now better for me than FSE mode with v0.87.10, Intel HD Graphics 4600 and 5000, XBMC and MPC-HC in Windows 7.

[ryrynz]

Anyone checked out Windows 10 performance vs 8.1 with MadVR? Likely the same I'd guess.

[huhn]

i'm using windows 10 on my gaming PC. windows 10 is changing quite a lot so it is a waist of time at the moment.

for example i reported a mouse wheel miss behaviour for mpc-hc after the last window 10 update the error was gone.

[madshi]

if I go from pure power curve to power curve
I can see every step of the greyscale clearly except 16
if I do that in bt. 709 to power curve then everything is darker, still distinguishable, but whereas 17-16 is total black I can see the 14 strip which was invisible in the brighter settings, power to power.
Perhaps each curve is designed for different rgb levels then?
I guess power curve would be the way to go for a pc monitor
Well, the problem with those ICC profiles you download from the internet is that they were not really made for your very display. Every display (even if it's the same model) varies slightly. So that ICC profile might bring you closer to the correct calibration, but it'll not be perfect. If you want perfection, you may have to buy a meter and calibrate the display yourself.

To be honest, I'm not sure if what I wrote above explains the things you're seeing. Maybe, or maybe not. In any case, I do wonder about the 14 strip. You're saying 17-16 is total black and 14 is brighter than 17-16?? That would be totally screwed up! The gamma (grayscale) response is supposed to reduce brightness for every step down. If one step suddenly is brighter than the step before that's rather bad. Ideally, every step from 16-235 should be visible and it should be a very smooth and even scale. Does the same thing (with 14 being brighter than 16-17) happen if you disable the ICC profile?

I think you're right about luck being a factor in it not having the dropped frames in that case. Other things (like the videos fps, screens hz, resolution, and other setting) all could have factored into the results. If I isolate other settings that might have been a factor I'll update.

For reference it was windowed mode (I don't use FSE mode since I like to take screen captures of many of the videos I watch, and unless I'm viewing in dual screen extended mode FSE doesn't capture screens correctly). It is always running at high power setting. They clocking up and down I'm not sure about, but I'm kind of doubting that is the case since I think I saw it go from no presentation glitches to a couple every few seconds after updating programs (one KCP version with MPC-HC 1.7.7 installed on top vs a newer version of KCP with the same MPC-HC 1.7.7 that may have had updated versions of LAV and/or subfilters, so those could have factored in as well). I might be able to test it by running GPU-Z at the same time, and see if it changes. However it may be hard to tell for sure given the system is an Optimus system and never uses the Nvidia for everything.
FWIW, in windowed mode, presentation gliches occur much more often. I've noticed that sometimes just starting an application or things like that can produce a glitch. FSE mode is more reliable. Not sure then, though, why Jinc4 works better for you than Jinc3. In any case, if you found a setting which works really well for you, that's great, and maybe it isn't always necessary to try to understand *why* it's work for you and another setting isn't.

FWIW, do you *see* the presentation glitches? Or are those just numbers that add up in the OSD, without you seeing a motion stutter?

At 59hz on my TV I'm showing 1 frame drop every 30 minutes or so, at 60hz it's 1 frame repeat every 40 seconds, I have smooth motion enabled. I figure 59hz is the preferred option, would I be right?
It depends on the video. If your screen supports the same hz as the fps of the video playing that is the preferred setting. (Except for the case of a variable frame rate video.)
Correct. With a 59fps movie you should be using 59Hz, and with a 60fps movie you should be using 60Hz. Smooth motion FRC works best if the refresh rate is much higher than the movie fps. If fps and refresh rate are very close, smooth motion FRC still does its job, but it does cost sharpness, so I don't recommend it in that situation.

Otherwise 59hz or 60hz is the recommended setting. Usually the closer the hz is to a even multiple of the video fps the better the chance of that refresh rate working with said video.
With smooth motion FRC disabled, I would agree. However, if you enable smooth motion FRC, then generally the higher the refresh rate and the lower the movie fps, the better. For 24fps I would recommend 60Hz over 59Hz. The difference if minor, obviously, so it's not really important. So if there are specific other reasons why 59Hz might be preferable over 60Hz then it's quite alright to use 59Hz. If there's no special reason, I'd prefer 60Hz over 59Hz. That said, maybe the display likes 59Hz better. If it's a TV, 59Hz comes more natural to it.

In any case, in the moment when smooth motion FRC is activated, the "x frame drops/repeats per y" information in the OSD becomes totally useless.

FWIW Windowed mode is now better for me than FSE mode with v0.87.10, Intel HD Graphics 4600 and 5000, XBMC and MPC-HC in Windows 7.
Interesting. In which is it better?

[ryrynz]

In any case, in the moment when smooth motion FRC is activated, the "x frame drops/repeats per y" information in the OSD becomes totally useless.


Good to know, perhaps strike it from the Ctrl-J stats if FRC is on then? Better switching to 60hz and getting slightly improved smooth motion IMO.

Madshi, seems that when transitioning to the next file in folder with exlcusive mode enabled the mouse cursor sometimes shows up before the next file plays, (I've had this happen for a while)
I thought it might happen only when breaking exclusive during viewing but it happens regardless, sometimes though the mouse cursor doesn't show at all which is good. This happens in BE and HC.
As a result of exclusive being broken and restarted on playback the filename of the file is not displayed on start of playback as well and I simply get the exclusive message displaying instead.

Looks like this in a HC code issue as Zoomplayer doesn't have that problem. Happens on both my Intel HD4000 Windows 7 system and my 750Ti Windows 8.1 system.

[burfadel]

I jokingly mentioned DirectX 12 support earlier, that would probably be too difficult of a take to accomplish. Under Windows 10, there is also DirectX 11.3 which is likely to be much more utilised by developers and for games.

[ryrynz]

I jokingly mentioned DirectX 12 support earlier, that would probably be too difficult of a take to accomplish. Under Windows 10, there is also DirectX 11.3 which is likely to be much more utilised by developers and for games.

Saw a recent article that stated 50% of new games would be dx12.. within 6 months or so? The speed ups are huge, I wouldn't expect 11 to be sticking around long, probably worth skipping entirely?

[nevcairiel]

DX12 is no replacement for DX11. DX12 is much more low-level, and therefor much harder to work with, and only worthwhile to invest in if you actually need the speed ups, which madVR does not need, since it doesn't have any CPU bottlenecks in the processing, its all pure GPU load.

[Qaq]

since it doesn't have any cpu bottlenecks in the processing, its all pure gpu load.IVTC?
Sometimes I see I can't play HDTV 1080i25 movie caps back in SW mode. Even if I slow it down to 24. So I switch to HWA and it plays w/o dropouts.

[huhn]

IVTC?
Sometimes I see I can't play HDTV 1080i25 movie caps back in SW mode. Even if I slow it down to 24. So I switch to HWA and it plays w/o dropouts.

DXVA copy back? and a normal CPU should get bored by HDTV in software mode and on top HDTV is in most cases mpeg2 a lot of AMD cards can't decode this with dxva.

and IVTC shouldn't care about the dx version it runs 100% on the CPU AFAIK.
dx12 makes improvment on how the gpu and cpu talk to each other and can speed this significantly up. I doubt this has an huge effect on madVR speed but time will tell. at some point madVR will use directx 11 for something that needs it.

and even if it is faster is it worth adding that rendererpath?

[nevcairiel]

You can decouple all the decoding and pre-processing of the video frames long before you need to talk to the GPU, which makes the DX12 changes irrelevant. Only actual rendering is affected, and from a CPU side thats just finished images that need to be uploaded to the GPU, there is no 3D scene that needs to be build every frame like in a game.

[Anime Viewer]

In any case, if you found a setting which works really well for you, that's great, and maybe it isn't always necessary to try to understand *why* it's work for you and another setting isn't.

FWIW, do you *see* the presentation glitches? Or are those just numbers that add up in the OSD, without you seeing a motion stutter?

It is only reported by OSD, and I haven't seen any visual problems with my eyes when they occur. For that reason I'm not really concerned with it, and like you said I'm not hung up on understanding why its occurring so long as its not noticeably effecting the viewing experience.


Correct. With a 59fps movie you should be using 59Hz, and with a 60fps movie you should be using 60Hz. Smooth motion FRC works best if the refresh rate is much higher than the movie fps. If fps and refresh rate are very close, smooth motion FRC still does its job, but it does cost sharpness, so I don't recommend it in that situation.

With smooth motion FRC disabled, I would agree. However, if you enable smooth motion FRC, then generally the higher the refresh rate and the lower the movie fps, the better. For 24fps I would recommend 60Hz over 59Hz. The difference if minor, obviously, so it's not really important. So if there are specific other reasons why 59Hz might be preferable over 60Hz then it's quite alright to use 59Hz. If there's no special reason, I'd prefer 60Hz over 59Hz. That said, maybe the display likes 59Hz better. If it's a TV, 59Hz comes more natural to it.

Given those points would you then advocate leaving out p59 (ex: 1080p59) settings on computer LCD screens in settings -> display modes -> list all display modes madVR may switch to: area, and perhaps doing the same with p60 settings in the same area for a tv's LCD screen?

Also would you advocate using rules/profiles like:

if (refreshRate = 23) and (deintFPS = 23) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 24) and (deintFPS = 24) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 29) and (deintFPS = 29) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 30) and (deintFPS = 30) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 59) and (deintFPS = 59) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 60) and (deintFPS = 60) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 59) and (deintFPS <= 30) "SM on"
if (refreshRate = 60) and (deintFPS <= 30) "SM on"
else "SM off"

With the "SM on" profile being set to Smooth Motion on, and the "SM off" profile being set to off.
(Does the deintFPS flag still work even if madVR is set with or chooses to deactivate deinterlacing?)



In any case, in the moment when smooth motion FRC is activated, the "x frame drops/repeats per y" information in the OSD becomes totally useless.

I'm guessing the exception to that would be when videos are dropping hundreds of frames every few seconds as a result of having Smooth Motion pushing render ms too high. (In which case the viewer is also seeing poor video playback on screen).

[huhn]

@Anime Viewer

if (refreshRate = 23 and deintFPS = 23 or < 24) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 24 and deintFPS = 24) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 29 and deintFPS = 29) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 30 and deintFPS = 30) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 59 and deintFPS = 59) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 60 and deintFPS = 60) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 59 and deintFPS <= 30) "SM on"
if (refreshRate = 60 and deintFPS <= 30) "SM on"

why not sure the setting use SM when needed?
there are technically only two deint FPS 50 frames from 50i and from 59i 59 frames

[dbcooper]

Does anyone know why rendering a 1920x1080 blu-ray to a 1920x1200 screen (no aspect ration change for video) would use a lot of GPU resources?

[dbcooper]

Hmm, using full screen exclusive mode drops rendering from 21 ms to 6.5 ms per frame.

[raymondjpg]

Interesting. In which is it better?
No freezing (so far) of MPC-HC display on refresh rate switching when opening (playing) video files, or seeking in MPEG2-TS and -PS files. Sure, MPC-HC and LAV filters have been updated as well, so improvements with v0.87.10 may be coincidental. Also, I had been using FSE because of tearing on some videos, which I no longer see using windowed overlay mode.

[DragonQ]

Does anyone know why rendering a 1920x1080 blu-ray to a 1920x1200 screen (no aspect ration change for video) would use a lot of GPU resources?

Chroma still needs to be upscaled, what method are you using for that? If it's Jinc or NNEDI3, that'd probably explain it.

[Anime Viewer]

Does anyone know why rendering a 1920x1080 blu-ray to a 1920x1200 screen (no aspect ration change for video) would use a lot of GPU resources?

Do you just seem more resources being used, or are you seeing much higher render times too?

Like DragonQ wrote if you're using NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling (not sure where he/she got the Jinc information from) that could account for it. Awhile back I did some testing, and in my tests NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling took four times as long to render than jinc 3-tap (see the code at the link below where render times are 4x times higher than jinc at 1080p).

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1687134#post1687134

Experiment with Jinc as your chroma upscaler, and see if you really notice a difference between that and NNEDI3. (Pause a video at full screen and switch between the two clicking apply after each switch). If you don't see an improvement in the appearance of the image on screen with your eyes when activating NNEDI3 then I recommend using jinc instead of NNEDI3.

[huhn]

chroma is always scaled the same scaled the same.

so it doesn't matter if it is downscaled or not.
chroma is always scaled to luma restitution first.

i guess it is simply the gpu change it's powerstate to a lower state that looks liek higher rendertimes.

rendertimes are unreliable they are important when you drop frames not i easy task like 1080p at 1080p

[Thunderbolt8]

got a problem regarding smooth picture presentation with my TV.

when watching a movie at 23.976 fps I have to set '24p smooth film' to mid on my panasonic plasma TX-p50vt60e. when I do so the picture is perfectly smooth, I dont have any complaints about the smoothness. but Im wondering why I do have to use that settings in the first place and cannot get it working correctly with just madvr and without changing TV settings. using my samsung LCD I dont have to change any settings to have the picture working well when using madvr.

the real problem though is when I try to watch a 1080i 29.97fps mpeg2 capture. I can choose display modes 1080p59 or 1080p60, doesnt matter, I will get dropped frames and presentation glitches. It gets a little better when I set 'intelligent frame creation' on my TV to max, but even after that there are still dropped frames and presentation glitches along the movie. I dont know how to get a smooth picture at all in this case. setting the TV to 1080p29 also doesnt help, its even worse then. the deinterlacing setting is turned off, madvr deinterlacing is too slow on my laptop and there doesnt seem to be a difference when I force yadif deinterlacing with lav video. sometimes the picture is not smooth (motion judder) on my TV without even having any dropped, repeated frame or presentation glitches occuring. again, I dont have this problem with my LCD TV (at least not when having found the correct presentation mode --> 1080p29, 1080p30, 1080p59, 1080p60).

so I dont now why I dont have to set anything on my LCD TV to get the presentation running smoothly using madvr and why I have to do so with my plasma (at least in case of 24p movies). and I dont know which options to set in madvr and/or my TV to get that 1080i capture working smoothly anyhow.

[huhn]

a 29p TV recoding is always interlaced this means it could be a lot.

first of all madVR doesn't care what type of display you use so it doesn't matter for it if is send is the LCD or a plasma as long as the refreshrate and resolution is the same.

first of all get smooth play back make sure frames are not dropped in any case.

after this check the recoding if it is interlaced it should be interlaced to 59 fps. if it is telecine it should be detelecine to 23 fps for proper playback.

and "madVR" deinterlacing is 100% not to slow on your laptop this is done with the DXVA engine so it is the same deinterlacer as EVR uses.

[Thunderbolt8]

well as soon as I activate deinterlacing ( shift+strg+alt+d) then theres a huge number of frame drops. at least it looks like too slow to me.

theres no visible interlacing in the video. how can I find out if its maybe telecine and how could I then detelecine it back to 23fps?

[huhn]

i would use my eyes.
media info can say you things like this.
madVR automatically activates deinterlacing with default settings and lavfilter as decoder.

[Thunderbolt8]

some corrections: that video is indeed interlaced, but its so little I didnt recognize it at first from the distance.

now, when I disable 'disable automatic detection' and tick 'force film mode', disable deinterlacing in LAV video, then madvr deinterlacing seems to work fine and its not too slow. apparently there some kind of problem when lavs deinterlacing is activated/set to auto as well in combination with madvr deinterlacing.

when I do set up madvr that way, then the picture is better than before. I dont get dropped or repeated frames any more. there a bit of motion judder though, is that maybe in the source? how to tell if such judder is due to the source or due to bad settings? this is with TV setting 'intelligent frame creation' off. when I activate it again & set it to max, then the picture becomes a lot smother in some scenes, but is doing these kind of stop-jumps with the picture stopping for few ms and then jumping back forward to make up for that lost time.

so its still not perfect. however, when I now add smoothmotion as well, then the picture gets changed to 24p and its as smooth as my 24p movies in general are. using this however, Im wondering is this supposed to be the best way to work? Im wondering, shouldnt it be possible to get an as smooth picture as with the smooth motion setting just with correct deinterlacing & co settings and without smooth motion? basically perfectly smooth 60fps picture.

[huhn]

the forced film mode is a detelecine filter not a deinterlacer. this filter (not working with DXVA native because it is using the CPU) tries to recreated the 23p out of the 59i stream by field matching and dropping fields and should only be used for interlaced files that use 3:2 cadence telecine (any cinema movie should be like this).

don't change anything in lavfilter the default settings are totally right for at least 99.99 % of all user. if you change settings liek deinterlacing you can run in problems if you don't know what you are doing there.

you use at to so way don't you add dispaly modes in madVR like:

1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60

if you do this madVR will automatic switch to the best mode for the file you play making things like judder with progressive source a no brainer. if madVr detelecine is used it will switch to 23p if possible. if deinterlacing is used if will try to switch to 59p.

if you use the deinterlacer madVR is now displaying 60 fps and need 2.5 the power compared to 24 fps files. so you have to make use the chroma scaling and image scaling settings are not to demanding(TV stream are offend 1440x1080 AR 16/9 so extra scaling so a lot of scaling is needed) but there should be no problem to get madVR running even with a iGPU like a hd 4600.

[Anime Viewer]

you use at to so way don't you add dispaly modes in madVR like:

1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60


I'm guessing you're trying to ask why Thunderbolt8 doesn't include the p23 and p24 in his/her madVR switch mode listings, and I suspect its because when he/she does have those settings entered he/she sees the stutter/lag/frame jumping becomes much worse. While those settings work great for some videos it makes others drastically worse than normal. I've seen it happen a lot with subs of the anime One Piece. As other people have mentioned on the board before it and many others may be using variable frame rates, and that may be why those videos play awful when the system decides to play them at the p23 or p24 screen hz matching settings. Like him/her I've found that even though my tv supports and can switch to those refresh rates for overall compatibility across multiple videos its better to leave them out and use p29, p30, p59, and p60 entries.

[StinDaWg]

As other people have mentioned on the board before it and many others may be using variable frame rates, and that may be why those videos play awful when the system decides to play them at the p23 or p24 screen hz matching settings. Like him/her I've found that even though my tv supports and can switch to those refresh rates for overall compatibility across multiple videos its better to leave them out and use p29, p30, p59, and p60 entries.
But for someone who doesn't watch anime or VFR videos, there is no reason not to switch to 23p, 24p to get proper film playback.

[namaiki]

Do you guys really notice any difference between 24p display mode vs 24fps video on 60hz screen with MadVR's smooth motion enabled?

[James Freeman]

Do you guys really notice any difference between 24p display mode vs 24fps video on 60hz screen with MadVR's smooth motion enabled?

No on an LCD.
Yes on a plasma.

The way LCD's show images is by sample-and-hold method thus your brain interprets the moving image with additional blur.
Adding blended frames of via smooth motion is practically indistinguishable.

On a Plasma and CRT the image flickers once and the rest of the frame time is simply nothing. No motion blur with these old (and discontinued) technologies.

LCD's with black frame insertion or scanning backlight can emulate CRT, thus effectively also eliminating motion blur.

[StinDaWg]

Do you guys really notice any difference between 24p display mode vs 24fps video on 60hz screen with MadVR's smooth motion enabled?
Samsungs Cinema Smooth 96hz mode works better than madVR smooth motion at 60hz. There is a bit of sharpness loss with madVRs implementation because it blends frames. Cinema Smooth displays the video at 4:4 cadence.

[huhn]

I'm guessing you're trying to ask why Thunderbolt8 doesn't include the p23 and p24 in his/her madVR switch mode listings, and I suspect its because when he/she does have those settings entered he/she sees the stutter/lag/frame jumping becomes much worse. While those settings work great for some videos it makes others drastically worse than normal. I've seen it happen a lot with subs of the anime One Piece. As other people have mentioned on the board before it and many others may be using variable frame rates, and that may be why those videos play awful when the system decides to play them at the p23 or p24 screen hz matching settings. Like him/her I've found that even though my tv supports and can switch to those refresh rates for overall compatibility across multiple videos its better to leave them out and use p29, p30, p59, and p60 entries.

a file with VFR 23-30 fps that reports 23p is broken or with other words wrong created. a VFR file should report the AVG fps or even better the maximum FPS. if it isn't doing one of these madVR will not switch to 23p and should switch to 50 or 60 both are at least working.

Do you guys really notice any difference between 24p display mode vs 24fps video on 60hz screen with MadVR's smooth motion enabled?
yes. don't use it if you don't need it.
Samsungs Cinema Smooth 96hz mode works better than madVR smooth motion at 60hz. There is a bit of sharpness loss with madVRs implementation because it blends frames. Cinema Smooth displays the video at 4:4 cadence.

samsung is one brand and it is strange it even needs a mode like this. a normal TV can handle 23p totally fine without extra settings.

[Thunderbolt8]

I'm guessing you're trying to ask why Thunderbolt8 doesn't include the p23 and p24 in his/her madVR switch mode listingsI have those included, but I only listed those which I though would be relevant for a source which needs to be played back at 30 or 60 fps

the forced film mode is a detelecine filter not a deinterlacer. this filter (not working with DXVA native because it is using the CPU) tries to recreated the 23p out of the 59i stream by field matching and dropping fields and should only be used for interlaced files that use 3:2 cadence telecine (any cinema movie should be like this).

don't change anything in lavfilter the default settings are totally right for at least 99.99 % of all user. if you change settings liek deinterlacing you can run in problems if you don't know what you are doing there.

you use at to so way don't you add dispaly modes in madVR like:

1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60

if you do this madVR will automatic switch to the best mode for the file you play making things like judder with progressive source a no brainer. if madVr detelecine is used it will switch to 23p if possible. if deinterlacing is used if will try to switch to 59p.

if you use the deinterlacer madVR is now displaying 60 fps and need 2.5 the power compared to 24 fps files. so you have to make use the chroma scaling and image scaling settings are not to demanding(TV stream are offend 1440x1080 AR 16/9 so extra scaling so a lot of scaling is needed) but there should be no problem to get madVR running even with a iGPU like a hd 4600.Im not really sure what you what options you are advising me to set. when I use force film mode with that file I get a 3:2 cadence telecine, but from what it seems no errors in that regard.

I already have set the display modes to 1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p59, 1080p60. I also had LAV filter settings at default (deinterlacing = auto), not sure in case of yadif though if the yadif box is ticked as default option. so with these settings I encountered more problems as with setting force film mode.

so apart from that, should I set automatic deinterlacing if needed option to auto again in madvr? and about the 'in doubt' box, should I rather tick activate or deactivate deinterlacing in doubt?

[huhn]

this file is telecine so force film mode is fine and the refreshrate should be 23p. but there are a lot of TV shows that are not telecine for that you need video mode that uses the deinterlacer from the GPU and the refreshrate should be 59p. if you use video mode deinterlacer for this file you get a 3:2 judder because it only has fields for 24 fps.

it's a very rare case that a interlaced file should be played back at with 30 fps. this would be PsF and a modern deinterlacer like the GPU deinterlacer shouldn't do harm to it by deinerlacing this to 60 fps.

the YADIF in lavfilter is optional so off by default. this filter would create a 3:2 judder with this current file and eats a lot of CPU. if this is active madVr would got 59p as a result and should not deinterlace at all.

you reported you have a display mode like 1080p23 and that force film mode plus smooth motion is smooth and without not, right?
is madVR not switching to 23p? is it not smooth at 23p without smooth motion?

if yes think about using 1980p59 and 1080p60 only with smooth motion. there is maybe a problem with your TV when it tries to display 23p. curefully check this please it's very unually for TV these days to have issue like i guess this one maybe got.

[StinDaWg]

samsung is one brand and it is strange it even needs a mode like this. a normal TV can handle 23p totally fine without extra settings.
Most tvs have an option where you can choose to play 24p at 60hz or 72/96/120hz. Cinema Smooth is just Samsung's branding of that setting. LG calls it Real Cinema, Panasonic something else. There's no interpolation being done, it's just playing it at 3:3, 4:4, or 5:5 cadence.

[huhn]

24 hz at 60 hz why does it even exist. because "reasons" i guess?
maybe this is uncommon in a pal country, because they need native 50p and native 23p and 60p has to work too. never encountered such none sense as a option in any TV I tested.

[Thunderbolt8]

I disabled yadif deinterlacing in lav video; automatic source detection is ticked in madvr and deinterlacing activated in doubt is ticked as well. this is what happens now:

when I start the file then it madvr switches to 60p with automatic detected video (deinterlacing on). playback stutters as hell. when I deactivate deinterlacing then playback is normal, but the presentation isnt as smooth as it should be. I can then activate "intelligent frame creation at my plasma which makes the picture as smooth as it should be on the one hand, but on the other hand also adds those stop-jump occurences of the picture.

when I manually switch to film mode without deinterlacing, madvr switches to 23p and the presentation is smooth. there is some interlacing visible then, however.

when I then activate deinterlacing as well (or when just switching into film mode and deinterlacing is on by default), one of the three things happens:

1. film cadence is detected as unknown (this rarely happens)
2. film cadence detected as 3:2 with regular occurence of cadence breaks.
3. film cadence is detected as 3:2 without any cadence breaks.

these three different scenarios occur with the same file, apparently randomly when manually switching to film mode. which of these occur can change when I close mpc-hc, start it up again and switch to film mode again.

so:

1. apparently madvr automatically detects the source type wrongly and I have to switch to film mode manually, right?

2. I dont know why there is that different behaviour with regarding film cadence and cadence breaks. I can of course try to restart mpc-hc or switch back to video and film mode again to see if anything has changed, until I get it right, so theres somewhat a solution to get it working correctly. dont know why this is happening though.

3. the playback at 23p is smooth, but as said in my first post regarding this issue I also need to have set '24p smooth film' to mid at my plasma in order for the presentation to be that smooth, in case of this file and 23.976fps movies in general. I wonder why that is, why it doesnt seem possible to get such a smooth picture with only player settings, because, as said before, my with LCD TV I dont need to change any settings (not even sure if there are such settings).

[StinDaWg]

24 hz at 60 hz why does it even exist. because "reasons" i guess?
maybe this is uncommon in a pal country, because they need native 50p and native 23p and 60p has to work too. never encountered such none sense as a option in any TV I tested.
Usually they leave out proper 24p support on the cheaper models as a feature upgrade on the mid and high end models. My last tv was an entry level Panasonic plasma that only did 24p at 60hz. You had to upgrade to V series to get 96hz. Same before that on an entry level Samsung.

[huhn]

I disabled yadif deinterlacing in lav video; automatic source detection is ticked in madvr and deinterlacing activated in doubt is ticked as well. this is what happens now:

when I start the file then it madvr switches to 60p with automatic detected video (deinterlacing on). playback stutters as hell. when I deactivate deinterlacing then playback is normal, but the presentation isnt as smooth as it should be. I can then activate "intelligent frame creation at my plasma which makes the picture as smooth as it should be on the one hand, but on the other hand also adds those stop-jump occurences of the picture.

when I manually switch to film mode without deinterlacing, madvr switches to 23p and the presentation is smooth. there is some interlacing visible then, however.

when I then activate deinterlacing as well (or when just switching into film mode and deinterlacing is on by default), one of the three things happens:

1. film cadence is detected as unknown (this rarely happens)
2. film cadence detected as 3:2 with regular occurence of cadence breaks.
3. film cadence is detected as 3:2 without any cadence breaks.

these three different scenarios occur with the same file, apparently randomly when manually switching to film mode. which of these occur can change when I close mpc-hc, start it up again and switch to film mode again.

so:

1. apparently madvr automatically detects the source type wrongly and I have to switch to film mode manually, right?

2. I dont know why there is that different behaviour with regarding film cadence and cadence breaks. I can of course try to restart mpc-hc or switch back to video and film mode again to see if anything has changed, until I get it right, so theres somewhat a solution to get it working correctly. dont know why this is happening though.

3. the playback at 23p is smooth, but as said in my first post regarding this issue I also need to have set '24p smooth film' to mid at my plasma in order for the presentation to be that smooth, in case of this file and 23.976fps movies in general. I wonder why that is, why it doesnt seem possible to get such a smooth picture with only player settings, because, as said before, my with LCD TV I dont need to change any settings (not even sure if there are such settings).

1. yes that's the case

2. it works fine even when unknown is shown. this unknown is usually triggered by changing the mode deinterlacing mode from film to video or video to film. see this bug report from me: http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=203

the real problem is it shows unknown when a cadence breaks is happening and it can show unknown when the file is interlaced.
so it not 100% save to say it works 100% correctly but if you trigger it this bug like mentioned it should work still fine.

a file can easily switch between telecine and interlaced.
for example a movie recoding with CM has CM that is usually interlaced and the main movie is telecine.

3. Usually they leave out proper 24p support on the cheaper models as a feature upgrade on the mid and high end models. My last tv was an entry level Panasonic plasma that only did 24p at 60hz. You had to upgrade to V series to get 96hz. Same before that on an entry level Samsung.

my be this is your issue?
this is kind of shocking to me... I mean even a very cheap Philips doesn't have issue like this.
just ridiculous what they do for money...

[Thunderbolt8]

I have a VT panasonic plasma so I would at least guess it shouldnt be something cheap like that.

[Anime Viewer]

@Anime Viewer

why not sure the setting use SM when needed?
there are technically only two deint FPS 50 frames from 50i and from 59i 59 frames

Yeah, I'm not sure that its switching on or off optimally. If its not needed and its still running not only is it wasting resources, but it can make viewing quality worse (like noticeable blur during panning scenes at low hz screen refresh rates). Regardless that coding didn't help to address the situation.

Using coding:

if (refreshRate = 23) and (deintFPS = 23) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 24) and (deintFPS = 24) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 29) and (deintFPS = 29) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 30) and (deintFPS = 30) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 59) and (deintFPS = 59) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 60) and (deintFPS = 60) "SM off"
if (refreshRate = 59) and (deintFPS <= 30) "SM on"
if (refreshRate = 60) and (deintFPS <= 30) "SM on"
else "SM on"

Watching a 30.303 video with the screen running at 30.00021hz SM on still activates. Recoding the lines to something like below may work, but may be flawed as well.

if (refreshRate >= 29) and (refreshRate < 29.999) and (deintFPS = 29) "SM off"
if (refreshRate >= 30) and (refreshRate < 31) and (deintFPS = 30) "SM off"

Edit: looks like that code doesn't work either. That same video with those rules set still shows "SM on" in bold....

a file with VFR 23-30 fps that reports 23p is broken or with other words wrong created. a VFR file should report the AVG fps or even better the maximum FPS. if it isn't doing one of these madVR will not switch to 23p and should switch to 50 or 60 both are at least working.

While that may be the way its ideally supposed to work that is not the way it works. Here is an example:
Playing One Piece episode 473 or One Piece episode 471 at the beginning with the Pacifista (is another good test example) (madVR CTRL+J reports the video as "movie 25.000 fps [says source filter" the screen is reported in madVR OSD CTRL+J as running at "display 24.00017 Hz", so its not switching the way it should according to your statement.
Running as it is (with or with out reclock running and with or without the "treat 25p movies as 24p" checked) there is a huge amount of lag, jerking, frame jumping.

EVR custom preset shows the 471 video frame rate moving back and forth between 28 and 48 fps during most of the video. From what I recall its been talked about before in this forum, and mentioned that madVR is apparently deciding the screen Hz based on the beginning of the video.

[huhn]

i don't care about ripper and rips read the rules of the page...

[Soukyuu]

Why would madvr be showing dropped frames with all queues being nearly full? This is with a NTSC DVD (interlaced, 29.97fps) on a 60hz screen.
I don't really see any stuttering on screen, so it's kind of irritating. The counter for repeated frames is not increasing with the dropped frame one.

Example (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19330332/madvr_deint_frames.JPG).

[Anime Viewer]

Why would madvr be showing dropped frames with all queues being nearly full? This is with a NTSC DVD (interlaced, 29.97fps) on a 60hz screen.
I don't really see any stuttering on screen, so it's kind of irritating. The counter for repeated frames is not increasing with the dropped frame one.

Example (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19330332/madvr_deint_frames.JPG).
What are your settings? What renders, uscalers, downscaler are you using? Are you using reclock, or SVP? (I see smooth motion isn't active). What is your dithering setting? Have you tried switching off deinterlacing, and see if that makes a difference?

[huhn]

Why would madvr be showing dropped frames with all queues being nearly full? This is with a NTSC DVD (interlaced, 29.97fps) on a 60hz screen.
I don't really see any stuttering on screen, so it's kind of irritating. The counter for repeated frames is not increasing with the dropped frame one.

Example (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19330332/madvr_deint_frames.JPG).

do you have a small sample i can only guess?
i guess it is telecine so no needed frame is dropped and that's why it doesn't look jerky. but it shouldn't drop a frame what so every...

just a guess of cause

[Soukyuu]

What are your settings? What renders, uscalers, downscaler are you using? Are you using reclock, or SVP? (I see smooth motion isn't active). What is your dithering setting? Have you tried switching off deinterlacing, and see if that makes a difference?It only happens when deinterlacing is active. I leave the mode selection to madvr. internal lav (mpc-hc) has auto/yadif 60p mode active.

No reclock or svp, smooth motion is off because 60fps = 60hz.
Scalers are SoftCubic80 for up, catmull-rom for downscaling.
Ordered dithering (not much choice with my GPU)

do you have a small sample i can only guess?
i guess it is telecine so no needed frame is dropped and that's why it doesn't look jerky. but it shouldn't drop a frame what so every...

just a guess of causeI only have this DVD... no idea how to make a sample out of it preserving the format.

[huhn]

It only happens when deinterlacing is active. I leave the mode selection to madvr. internal lav (mpc-hc) has auto/yadif 60p mode active.
is YADIF active? if yes you shouldn't use the deinterlacing in madVR.
if I look now at your picture is shows that deinterlacing is active by setting not by" says upstream" so I guess you forced it?

by doing this it is now deinerlacing a deinteralced stream to 120 fps.

so just deactive YADIF or don't force deinterlacing with madVR
No reclock or svp, smooth motion is off because 60fps = 60hz.
Scalers are SoftCubic80 for up, catmull-rom for downscaling.
Ordered dithering (not much choice with my GPU)

I only have this DVD... no idea how to make a sample out of it preserving the format.

i'm not a pro at this too.
but one way it to use makeMKV decrypted the DVD and use mkv merge to split the file by a key frame. but there should be a better way direct with the vob files.

[Soukyuu]

Deinterlacing is not forced in madvr, but I have the option "enable if needed, if in doubt, activate deinterlacing" set. Disabling that gets rid off the dropped frames, the OSD says "deinterlacing off (settings), but yadif seems to be active, as I don't see the sawtooth pattern anymore. The confusing part was that you need to restart mpc for the deinterlacing settings to apply, so in the end it ended up deinterlacing things twice, I guess?

Either way, with deintrerlacing enabled in either madvr or lav filters, there are no dropped frames anymore.
Possibly OT, but which one is the "better" deinterlacer, yadif or madvr? Which is more heavy on CPU?

[huhn]

Either way, with deintrerlacing enabled in either madvr or lav filters, there are no dropped frames anymore.
Possibly OT, but which one is the "better" deinterlacer, yadif or madvr? Which is more heavy on CPU?

the madVR deinterlacer is the normal DXVA deinterlacer nothing special at all. this deinerlacer uses only the GPU and is pretty decent
the deinterlacer quality is based on the driver you use and the video card. it should take any power because this should be a extra ASIC in the gpu like the DXVA decoder.

intel, amd and nvidia are all pretty good I would say intel was not as good as the rest but I tested this with a hd4000 a now pretty old card.

YADIF is running fully on the CPU can turn in to a problem with 1080p source where it need a lot of processing power. not know to be very good not now to be very bad I guess. every GPU deinerlacer should be better these days.

if you have YADIF active you can't use madVR IVTC for telecine DVD to restore the original 24 fps from movies on DVD this is called forced film mode.


the last thing i don't understand is why madVR used deinerlacer on a deinterlaced stream from lavfilter. normally lavfilter tells madVR that the stream is not interlaced when YADIF is active...