madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[LordX2]

From everything you have posted and described, it sounds like you have you black levels all wrong. Wrong black levels will lead to visible noise and macroblocking in a lot of cases.

QB

When I ran the black level video I posted earlier, I was able to clearly make out the different levels, and they stopped where they were supposed to.

What would you suggest looking at or into? I would like to get this right after all the time I spent on it.

I have highlight recovery set to HIGH - can this introduce noise? What about the NGU chroma upscaling?

PS - No noise on 1080p that I have recently watched.

[*MidnightWatcher*]

@LordX2, give me the 4K title name and timestamp where you see excessive noise. If I have the title (chances are I will) I'll pull it up to see how it looks on my setup.

[Asmodian]

A lot of the HDR UHD blurays I have do contain a lot of noise, this is as intended and is not something to try to fix. Denoising film grain is another topic entirely.

Dithering noise is a lot more subtle than film grain. To test try turning down the output bitdepth in madVR a lot, to 4 or even 2 bit. This can give an idea for what dithering noise looks like when its visibility is increased a lot.

[LordX2]

@LordX2, give me the 4K title name and timestamp where you see excessive noise. If I have the title (chances are I will) I'll pull it up to see how it looks on my setup.

The one tonight was harry potter and the half blood prince.

There is a chapter that starts right around 1 hour and 9 mins. Harry is at some party, and a kid walks in with a white jacket on, I noticed a little there.

Nothing is what I would call 'excessive' by any means. I just notice it because I am staring at the screen like cookie monster (or a clockwork orange) these days. :)

After watching Lucy, and the fact that it was a perfect viewing experience for me, I am just going to conclude that the Harry Potter 4k transfer is NOT amazing. Or maybe the master isn't amazing. Who knows.

[LordX2]

I am watching LUCY right now.

It... is.... amazing.. visually.

Super clean picture, absolutely no noise or grain. This is an amazing reference film. I have watched over 30+ mins so far, every scene looks fantastic... from bright scenes to dark scenes.

I have never seen my projector look this good. I am going to call it. Project complete!

Thank you again Asmodian, Samurai, Huhn, MidnightWatcher, Manni, and everyone else who helped me through this process.

PS - Just finished it.... I feel like I watched my first REAL 4k movie...

[QBhd]

When I ran the black level video I posted earlier, I was able to clearly make out the different levels, and they stopped where they were supposed to.

...

Just an FYI... the first bar you are supposed to see is supposed to be barely visible in a very dark room after enough time for your eyes to adjust... when you say that you are "able to clearly make out the different levels" to me suggests that something is not right. Maybe your wording is leading me in this direction...

QB

[LordX2]

Just an FYI... the first bar you are supposed to see is supposed to be barely visible in a very dark room after enough time for your eyes to adjust... when you say that you are "able to clearly make out the different levels" to me suggests that something is not right. Maybe your wording is leading me in this direction...

QB

I am a total noob, so it is very likely that I worded something to give the wrong impression.

When my black levels WERE messed up, I was only able to see down to I think 80 on that video. Everything else 76 and down was just totally BLACK.

After fixing the black levels, I could just barely make out 68. Maybe 66? So right where it was supposed to be. (and yes, totally light controlled room, lights out, eyes adjusted)

[oldpainlesskodi]

I'm running Madvr limited, GPU full, display limited (my display is limited anyways).

Just my 2cents.

[stefanelli73]

Hello everyone, I am the owner of a BENQ 5700 projector that I use with Madvr tone mapping together with an AMD 5700 XT video card, going into the vpr information, the same tells me that the color space used is BT.709 and not SDR.BT2020, both the video card and Madvr are both set to 10bit, I want to clarify that my vpr is not like JVC or SONY where you can set BT.709 or BT.2020 independently, but goes into BT.2020 only and exclusively when it receives a signal HDR, going to BT.709 the colors are naturally washed out.... do you have any solution to suggest me? Could it be a video card bug?

[huhn]

at the moment it's not possible to set bt 2020 in AMD unlike nvidia but the results should be over normal or over saturated but not washed out odd.

[Asmodian]

BT.2020 displayed as if it was P3 is washed out, BT.2020 is very large and anything else assumes the content covers a much smaller range.

[huhn]

but if you don't tell madVR that the display is calibrated to X it will convert it to bt 709 with SDR output.

to get it washed out you have to set this display is calibrated to something over BT 709 but he said the display can't be set to that so why would he do that?

[LordX2]

I wonder if maybe his solution is similar to mine? Select Limited for his PJ? Worth a shot.

Try either: MadVR Limited, GPU Full, PJ Limited

OR

MadVR Full, GPU Limited, PJ Limited

[huhn]

limited and full range is a different art to pack the same data. bt 2020 and bt709 are complete different data.

[stefanelli73]

but if you don't tell madVR that the display is calibrated to X it will convert it to bt 709 with SDR output.

to get it washed out you have to set this display is calibrated to something over BT 709 but he said the display can't be set to that so why would he do that?
The vpr always reports BT.709 both with a 3dlut in SDR-DCI P3 and in THIS DISPLAY IS ALREADY CALIBRATED (DCI P3 or BT.2020)

[stefanelli73]

I wonder if maybe his solution is similar to mine? Select Limited for his PJ? Worth a shot.

Try either: MadVR Limited, GPU Full, PJ Limited

OR

MadVR Full, GPU Limited, PJ Limited
I'll try...thanks.

[mclingo]

Hi, just looking at black levels again as seem to have some odd issues, just want to get my head straight again first.

1 Full, Full, Full -- Video Level CORRECT : WtW & BtW Clipped, Single scaling
2 Full, Full, Limited -- Video Level WRONG : Crushed Blacks
3 Full, Limited, Full -- Video Level WRONG : Washed Out Colors
4 Full, Limited, Limited -- Video Level CORRECT : WtW & BtW Clipped, Double scaling
5 Limited, Full, Full -- Video Level WRONG : Washed Out Color
6 Limited, Full, Limited -- Video Level CORRECT : WtW & BtB preserved, Zero scaling
7 Limited, Limited, Full -- Video Level WRONG : Extreme Washed Out Colors
8 Limited, Limited, Limited -- Video Level WRONG : Washed Out Colors

6 being the ideal scenario what exactly does this equate to, I thought it was:


MADVR "0-235" -- AMD "444:FULL RGB" -- LG OLED TV "LOW", low being limted.

However this is wrong, everything is crushed, eh?


i'm guessing MADVR should be 0-255 to match the GPU?

[SamuriHL]

No, something is wrong there. Are you SURE your LG is set to low? Because it absolutely should be Limited, FULL, Limited (madvr, gpu, display). Of course, I don't know much about AMD cards so who knows what that's doing?

[mclingo]

AMD 444 FULL RGB - MADVR 0-255 - LG OLED HIGH - gives corrects results
AMD 444 FULL RGB - MADVR 0-255 - LG OLED LOW - gives crushed results

AMD 444 FULL RGB - MADVR 16-235 - LG OLED HIGH - gives correct results
AMD 444 FULL RGB - MADVR 16-235 - LG OLED LOW - gives crushed results

can anyone make sense of this?

[huhn]

The vpr always reports BT.709 both with a 3dlut in SDR-DCI P3 and in THIS DISPLAY IS ALREADY CALIBRATED (DCI P3 or BT.2020)

yes you are using AMD it can't send bt 2020 out side of HDR. AMD can't report anything else.

edit: full range for everything is recommended for everything the scaling stuff is a lie written by someone not knowing how ycbcr -> RGB works.
you can do convert directly to full RGB and directly to limited RGB this is just none sense.

[VBB]

@mclingo - when you say correct results, do you mean for playback or desktop use? If you need both, then it's either GPU Full -> madVR 0-255 -> TV High or GPU Limited -> madVR 0-255 -> TV Low. If you only care about video playback, then the ideal setup is GPU Full -> madVR 16-235 -> TV Low.

[VBB]

@huhn - I agree with you, but the OLEDs have banding issues with full range, among other things. Not sure if mclingo's first gen would be affected, though.

[SamuriHL]

Yea for us OLED owners things aren't as cut and dried...sadly. We'd all love to be doing full across the board, but, as VBB said, banding.

[Asmodian]

AMD 444 FULL RGB - MADVR 16-235 - LG OLED HIGH - gives correct results

This should not be correct. How did you determine it is correct?

Unless AMD is automatically converting? Seems very unlikely. :scared:

[QBhd]

I am not sure why people say there is banding on LG OLED with the High setting... this is not true. Banding in PC mode, yes. But there is no difference between the High/Low setting with regards to banding.

QB

[Ver Greeneyes]

For the most part I think the LG setting is just named backward. I think High means "expect the full range and keep black 'high' (don't lower it)" and Low means "expect the limited range and make black 'low' (expand the range)". I also had to set mine to "just scan" to disable overscan during boot, and disable some of the OLED screen saver features like screen shift to keep the edge of windows from being shifted off screen.

Edit: Oh yeah, and I also think limited range 8-bit YCbCr444 looks better on this screen than full range 8-bit RGB, like it converts RGB to YCbCr420 and then back internally or something. Pretty annoying. Especially noticeable with small red text on a dark background. I don't have an HDMI 2.1 GPU right now but when I do I'm going to try 12-bit color to see how that compares. I'm using an LG OLED48CX6LB.

[nevcairiel]

For the most part I think the LG setting is just named backward. I think High means "expect the full range and keep black 'high' (don't lower it)" and Low means "expect the limited range and make black 'low' (expand the range)".

Not sure you can attribute any real meaning to "High" or "Low" and thus claim its backwards, but High is Full Range either way.
I always assumed it refers to the value range, since full range is higher (255 data points) then limited (219 data points)

[Ver Greeneyes]

Fair enough :) I much prefer the full range / limited range nomenclature though.

[Asmodian]

Especially noticeable with small red text on a dark background. I don't have an HDMI 2.1 GPU right now but when I do I'm going to try 12-bit color to see how that compares. I'm using an LG OLED48CX6LB.

In PC mode my CX seems to round >8 bit to 8 bit internally (or something). I see much worse banding using 10 bit from madVR compared to 8 bit.

I agree YCbCr 444 limited is ideal for LG's OLEDs. I see worse near black banding when using full range RGB compared to limited range 444. It might just be the extra dithering but I think the display simply does better with limited range input.

[Damien147]

I am about to calibrate these days and I want to use Madvr pixel shaders.My TV is a fake hdr(bt.709)4k.I create a 2.2 gamma BT.2020 3DLUT for the calibration page,right?

[huhn]

not necessary in this case i would start with BT 709 and leave the gamut mapping to madVR but only if your device is really limited to bt 709 and not higher like 75%+ DCI p3.

[mclingo]

Hi, when I say correct results I guess I mean I get the expected results in that if my brightness and gamma are at default values on my TV the picture should not be crushed or washed out.

However, if we take the SDR black clipping pattern, I still think there is something wrong here. From memory the only way I could determine if BTB was being preserved was to push the brightness up a few notches and more bars appear, you'd have flashing bars all the way along like this:

BTB full range preserved (after increasing brightness)

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBilKN5w8FBbZGpwzSFYg?e=QEgoYi


if they dont and the blacks all turn grey it suggest you're not getting BTW, is this right?


Washed out (after increasing brightness)

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBilKQcaR2JHbPaomFwbg?e=3Ou1i8

Correct pattern

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBilKN6QCzWja2Lpaisgw?e=15wmad

[Damien147]

not necessary in this case i would start with BT 709 and leave the gamut mapping to madVR but only if your device is really limited to bt 709 and not higher like 75%+ DCI p3.

For the calibration tab first I will create a BT 709 3dlut with bt.1886 gamma for SDR.You mean to use the same one?
I've read in the past that I need 2.2 gamma and that's why the BT.2020 3DLUT in the calibration tab.Am I right?

[huhn]

you can use profile instead.
and yes for tonemapping it should be gamma 2.2.

EDIT: i replaced the bt 709 with gamma 2.2 because bt 709 makes no sense.

[oldpainlesskodi]

@mclingo - who said number 3 is correct?, because in those shots, pretty sure in a dark room number 1 looks right to me.

Have you checked the APL Clipping test file?

Unless I've lost the plot lol.

[QBhd]

OMG... that 3rd image is so far off it must be terrible to watch content on. Also, why the focus on BTB/WTW? What content are you watching that needs this?

QB

[Damien147]

you can use profile instead.

Profile?I don't get you.


and yes for tonemapping it should be bt 709

I understand a BT.709 for all but as I said the one for sdr is gonna be bt.1886 and I need another one for 2.2 gamma.Is it wrong to create another one with bt.2020 and 2.2 gamma for tomemapping?

[huhn]

sorry for tone mapping it should gamma 2.2 not any BT what ever. i will edit the post so no one that reads it and not this one will get the wrong idea sorry about that.

with profiles you can do a simple check if the source is HDR it will use a gamma 2.2 3D LUT without HDR it will use what ever gamma you like 3D LUT.

[mclingo]

@mclingo - who said number 3 is correct?, because in those shots, pretty sure in a dark room number 1 looks right to me.

Have you checked the APL Clipping test file?

Unless I've lost the plot lol.

They all work mate and you can make them all look ok depending on your brightness and gamma settings but if your process flow has to convert from limited to full and back again it degrades the picture slightly each time, now whether this will be noticeable to the human eye these days is another matter with high res screens but I prefer to keep my processing path clean and free from unnecessary conversions.

[theDongerr]

How strange, I double checked and I really am using 445.75, Windows 1909 build 18363.752.

Edit: madVR 0.92.17, passthrough HDR to display, D3D11 fullscreen windowed (8 bit). 2080 Ti set to output 60Hz YUV 444 limited 8 bit to the C9.

Hello! Apologies in advance, I have recently upgraded/reinstalled my HTPC and trying to put madVR back together. Haven't had to think about these settings in a quite a while, but at one point I was experimenting with outputting 24hz materials at 60hz in as smooth a manner as possible for both 1080p and 2160p content.

I notice that you are outputting 60hz YUV 444. Are you playing 24hz material at 60hz and can I ask how you accomplish this?

I currently playback all content at its native rate 24hz (or otherwise) MadVr Limited -> HTPC 24hz RGB Full 8-bit -> RS600 Limited. Also worth noting I use madvr to perform dynamic tonemapping for HDR content.

Thank you for your contributions to this thread!:o

[Asmodian]

I used madVR's smooth motion to watch 24Hz material at 60Hz.

[theDongerr]

I used madVR's smooth motion to watch 24Hz material at 60Hz.

Really appreciate the snap response!! Should be easy enough to try this out again.

I was doing the same thing a few years back and I think I was watching one of the Star Wars prequels at 60hz + smooth motion that made me go back to native 24hz.

Do some films just respond better to being presented at 60hz than others? The movie was a 1:1 blu-ray rip upscaled to 2160p 60hz with smooth motion.

[Asmodian]

Smooth motion is not for everyone, I have an OLED where I like smooth motion but it is theoretically less ideal than a perfectly matched refresh rate.

For me, switching refresh rates every time I start a video and trying to tune custom refresh rates simply isn't worth it. I like the look of smooth motion and it is very robust so it seems like the best option to me.

Now that I can run 120 Hz using smooth motion is not even a question for me anymore (always). :)

[Damien147]

sorry for tone mapping it should gamma 2.2 not any BT what ever. i will edit the post so no one that reads it and not this one will get the wrong idea sorry about that.

with profiles you can do a simple check if the source is HDR it will use a gamma 2.2 3D LUT without HDR it will use what ever gamma you like 3D LUT.

I lack knowledge about the profiles you mention and don't know what to do.I don't understand how to do that.
First for the calibration tab I create a BT.709 3DLUT with bt.1886 for SDR.Then what do I do to achieve tone mapping with Madvr(pixel shaders) on my bt.709 TV?

[huhn]

right click on your TV/AVR name -> create profile group with calibration only -> profile 1 "duplicate profile" -> name one SDR one HDR -> click on "Profile Group 1" - add in profile auto select rules:

if (HDR = true) "HDR"
else "SDR"

load the SDR 3D LUT in SDR and the 2.2 in HDR.

BTW. why bt 1886?

[*MidnightWatcher*]

Question - I've decided to set up a few different HDR profiles to toggle between different contrast recovery settings. I've set up Ctrl+C in the profile group name as the keyboard shortcut but for some reason pressing Ctrl+C does nothing and I'm unable to toggle between them. Do I need to set up auto select rules for toggling to work?

[stefanelli73]

yes you are using AMD it can't send bt 2020 out side of HDR. AMD can't report anything else.




So basically with AMD cards using Madvr tone mapping, I will always see with BT.709 color space, despite having loaded a 3dlut in SDR DCI-P3 is that you saying?

[huhn]

the slot has nothing to do with it AMD can tell the screen to switch to BT 2020 (or better it doesn't work)so either you manual change the color space on the TV which is generally fine. if you don't need BT 709 for your desktop and your device can do it.

@*MidnightWatcher*

i don't use profiles personally i know you can toggle through them if they all of the same hot key so try to give the profile itself the hotkey.

and control+c could be used (alot is used...).

[jkauff]

I've set up Ctrl+C in the profile group name as the keyboard shortcut but for some reason pressing Ctrl+C does nothing and I'm unable to toggle between them. Do I need to set up auto select rules for toggling to work?
Try a different key combination. Windows reserves Ctrl+C for the "copy" part of cut, copy, paste operations. You can't override that.

[stefanelli73]

the slot has nothing to do with it AMD can tell the screen to switch to BT 2020 (or better it doesn't work)so either you manual change the color space on the TV which is generally fine. if you don't need BT 709 for your desktop and your device can do it.


The problem is precisely that with my projector a BENQ 5700 I can get the BT.2020 color space, only if it locks a signal in HDR, otherwise always in BT.709, unfortunately it does not act in the same way as SONY or JVC projectors where you can choose either one or the other