View Full Version : madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)
cyberlolo
28th February 2010, 16:33
There's some people asking (like me) if madshi continues with the development of this renderer, or if version 0.11 will be the last one. Does anyone know this? Why madshi hasn't post anything here for more than a month?
cyberbeing
28th February 2010, 23:01
He has become a clone of Haali. :p
Busy with his job and real-life, but slowly working on madVR in his very very limited free time.
It's not like madshi has stopped lurking around Doom9, he was last seen a week ago. Until he comes around this thread and announces he has halted any further development on madVR, assume it is still ongoing.
Andy o
28th February 2010, 23:04
No. It really depends on what you need. If you have an external video processor to perform all the corrections, you will be better outputting in YCbCr.
I don't have one, and probably never will, so my personal choice will always be RGB.
Forget color conversions (or lack thereof) for a moment. YCbCr output compresses the levels in not the best way, introducing a bit of banding, same as RGB Limited, on top of madVR's smooth output. Compare the three madvr outputs:
MPC-HC madVR, RGB Full, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count) (http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/11324711_5WiTz#798086751_HvBLo-A-LB)
MPC-HC madVR, RGB Limited, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count) (http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/11324711_5WiTz#798086793_CCaaU-A-LB)
MPC-HC madVR, YCbCr 4:4:4, (AVIVO Dynamic Range doesn't count) (http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/11324711_5WiTz#798086842_JW5gs-A-LB)
This one is more relevant even. It's TMT3. We know madVR is converting to RGB for the card then to re-convert to YCbCr, but with TMT3 and the other commercial players it's speculated that the protected video path allows for direct YCC passthrough
TMT 3, YCbCr 4:4:4, DR Full (http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/11324711_5WiTz#798086332_E4rau-A-LB)
TMT 3, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Full (http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/11324711_5WiTz#798086379_usWT2-A-LB)
TMT 3, (RGB Pixel Format doesn't count), DR Limited (http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/11324711_5WiTz#798086434_Jkw6h-A-LB)
YCbCr here shows even more banding than with madVR. In this case I believe the YCbCr setting compresses levels, thus you need to choose dynamic range Full in Avivo which expands again.
yesgrey
1st March 2010, 00:37
If you have an external video processor to perform all the corrections, you will be better outputting in YCbCr.
I did not say it because I thought it was obvious, but when outputting in YCbCr you cannot use madVR, because it only outputs RGB, hence you will have a conversion from RGB to YCbCr at the drivers levels, which will result in quality losses.
So, when using madVR, RGB output is always the preferable option.
cyberlolo
2nd March 2010, 21:18
He has become a clone of Haali. :p
Busy with his job and real-life, but slowly working on madVR in his very very limited free time.
It's not like madshi has stopped lurking around Doom9, he was last seen a week ago. Until he comes around this thread and announces he has halted any further development on madVR, assume it is still ongoing.
Well, regarding this question, madshi has confirmed by email that he hasn't stopped development. He's just waiting for his desk to free a bit, so that he can get back to madVR.
So now it's official that madVR is still in development. Great news.
JarrettH
2nd March 2010, 22:44
That's good to hear. I'd hate all these pages of posts to turn into some long hack workaround :devil:
Razoola
3rd March 2010, 17:16
Well, regarding this question, madshi has confirmed by email that he hasn't stopped development. He's just waiting for his desk to free a bit, so that he can get back to madVR.
So now it's official that madVR is still in development. Great news.
Thats real good news. I would love to see a new version even if its just to fix the non working issues with the newer nvidia drivers.
cyberlolo
4th March 2010, 01:43
Use what looks better to you until you could use madVR with a 3DLUT for it, which should be the preferable option...
yesgrey (of course, anyone can answer too), I have one more doubt about this issue. In some time, we'll have two options:
1) Set madVR to TV Levels (no conversion), graphics card output and TV input to Full RGB (0-255), and adjust TV brightness so that levels 0-16 are total black.
2) Use your new version of cr3dlut (when released) to have the output calibrated at 16-255, so we'd need nothing else to adjust in the TV.
With both of them we'll have an optimal levels calibration at 16-255 to watch videos with an HTPC outputting RGB: that is to say, levels 0-16 as total black, preserving wtw (to simplify, in this case we'll assume 255 peak white as optimal, although you adviced to set it at 245), and without banding. But which one of this two options is better, and why?
yesgrey
4th March 2010, 11:27
But which one of this two options is better, and why?
IMHO, probably would be (2), because it would use better the on/off contrast ratio of your display, hence giving you images with a little more contrast, but it would not be as simple as that, because the gamma used will also have a big influence in the output image...
There are no strict rules in this. It will always depend on personal preferences...;)
cyberlolo
4th March 2010, 13:11
IMHO, probably would be (2), because it would use better the on/off contrast ratio of your display, hence giving you images with a little more contrast, but it would not be as simple as that, because the gamma used will also have a big influence in the output image...
There are no strict rules in this. It will always depend on personal preferences...;)
Ok, but I need some help to understand what's really going on with the PC Levels option in madVR, and what will be going on with your new version of cr3dlut. My question regards with this post of Don Munsil in AVSForum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16498839&postcount=34):
I honestly think clipping below reference black is not nearly as big a deal as clipping above reference white. I've seen some content that looks visibly changed when below-reference is clipped, and I assume mostly it's because those lower values affect the scaling and processing algorithms. On a CRT, a really low below-black value has the potential to affect the next pixel, pushing it up just a tad because of filtering, internal ringing, etc. On a fixed-pixel display, that's not necessarily going to happen if you get 1:1 pixel mapping, and I can't honestly say I've seen any visible artifact because of below-reference clipping in a situation like that. I still think there's no good reason to clip below 16; it's not like it's helpful in any way. The player/display shouldn't throw away the below-reference values and refuse to display them, even if you turn the brightness up. Certainly it makes calibration somewhat harder, and I'm at least open to the possibility that there could be subtle second-order effects of clipping those values.
But post-calibration all the values from 1-16 should end up producing the same value on your display and that value should be the blackest value the display can produce. Again, modulo some subtle potential effects when scaling and so forth.
Bottom line is simple: make the display act like a BVM. If there's any controversy, just check what a BVM does and copy that. BVM's don't hard-clip the values below 16 - they're there if you turn the brightness up. So just on general principles I'm against hard-clipping in consumer displays. If you turn up the brightness, the below-reference values should show up. And then you should turn the brightness back down.
The crazy thing to me is that someone had to go out of their way to clip outside the reference range in the displays that do so. It doesn't add anything of value. It doesn't make processing easier, or storage smaller, or chips cheaper. It's just a dumb error caused by misunderstanding the specs. It's very frustrating.
But whether or not displays should show the above-reference signal is an easy question. They should. The content was viewed all throughout the video production and mastering process on BVMs that do not clip above reference. And ALL content has some above-reference material. All of it. You can see the difference by switching from clipped to not-clipped. The not-clipped is correct, and the clipped is incorrect.
Some of the above-reference material is basically unimportant. It just doesn't change the image in any visible way. Some of it, on the other hand, is easily visible when you compare clipped to not-clipped. Does the image look basically OK if you clip? Yes, most of the time it does. But that proves nothing. If you clipped at 225 the image would still look OK most of the time. You could clip black at 25 instead of 16 and I bet a lot of viewers would say the image looked punchier. And in fact it would be punchier, with more contrast. But it would still be wrong, and it would still look different from a reference monitor. And making the video look like it does on a reference BVM is the goal.
Bottom line: there are visible differences in the image when you clip above 235. No professional monitor clips above 235. If you want your home system to look as close as possible to a pro monitor you will not clip above 235. Q.E.D.
Don
Well, now the problem is: using PC Levels in madVR, or using your new version of cr3dlut (let's say at 16-245 output), we'd be clipping blacks at 0-16 and whites at 235-255 (madVR in PC Levels) and 245-255 (using cr3dlut with yesgrey's optimal levels), wouldn't we?
If that's so, we'd be lossing much valuable info:
Video is not supposed to stop at 235. It is expressly designed to extend to 254, and that is explicitly stated in the video standards. Further, this discussion we've had before is something of a simplified version that only deals with RGB. The YCbCr that's on the disc is 16-240 for chroma, and even assuming a hard clip right at 240 and at 235 for Y, this will still yield RGB values that are outside the nominal range upon conversion to RGB.
This occurs with a great deal of content, probably all content that has been handled well and has not been errantly clipped off. And even content that may have been hard-clipped in component will still yield values that are beyond 235.
YCbCr triplets that are clipped (to 16-235 for luma and 16-240 for chroma) will still yield RGB triplets that exceed 16-235 RGB range.
For instance, the perfectly legal YCbCr triplet of (200, 160, 150) in Rec.709 decodes to an RGB triplet of (250,181,240). Note that the component values don't even come anywhere close to the legal limit for video luma or chroma, yet they already exceed the nominal range in RGB for both red and blue. Unless an additional clip is imposed on the playback side in RGB (for no good reason), video values will regularly fall outside the nominal RGB range. An imposed clip at the playback side in RGB would change the color that was encoded on the disc, and I would argue that this is a detriment and a deviation from accuracy since this is not how it was observed(arbitrarily clipped) when mastered.
Examples:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16493656&postcount=23
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16498326&postcount=29
So, in this example, if we use madVR with PC Levels, or new version of cr3dlut set at 16-245, what would happen with all those triplets that have values exceeding the nominal range in RGB???
P.S. Sorry for the long post, but I really need to understand how this is working in order to achieve the better possible PQ.
yesgrey
4th March 2010, 23:57
So, in this example, if we use madVR with PC Levels, or new version of cr3dlut set at 16-245, what would happen with all those triplets that have values exceeding the nominal range in RGB???
Will be clipped, of course.
but I really need to understant how this is working in order to achieve the better possible PQ.
To be safe you will need to set it to 16-254, though, the movies where this happens might be scarce, and you would end up using your display's contrast ratio not at its best...
I've said 16-245 because from my experience it should be a good value for the majority of the available movies. Also, in my case, with a display with a very low contrast ratio (~800:1), I prefer to have a slight clipping and to get the maximum of contrast I can get. In case your display has plenty of contrast, you can go the safe route and just set it to the secure range above.
Let's discuss this after releasing it. I will also start a new thread for that. Just wait a little more.
cyberlolo
5th March 2010, 01:57
Will be clipped, of course.
To be safe you will need to set it to 16-254, though, the movies where this happens might be scarce, and you would end up using your display's contrast ratio not at its best...
I've said 16-245 because from my experience it should be a good value for the majority of the available movies. Also, in my case, with a display with a very low contrast ratio (~800:1), I prefer to have a slight clipping and to get the maximum of contrast I can get. In case your display has plenty of contrast, you can go the safe route and just set it to the secure range above.
Let's discuss this after releasing it. I will also start a new thread for that. Just wait a little more.
I've got a Pioneer KRP, and I think it's contrast ratio is at least 16000:1. I can't say it for sure because the user manual only says "extreme", but in some internet sites, they say it's 16000:1. Also, you need to know that I mainly use HTPC for watching TV shows more than movies, and 99% of them are mkvs. I know that in movies (Blu-Rays, DVDs, BDRips, ...) there's valuable wtw info, but I'm not so sure regarding TV shows...
So, with my contrast ratio and viewing preferences, what's your advice: set it to 16-245 or to 16-255?
BTW, I've read the EDID of my TV, and in a section of that file there comes the color primaries of my display. Do you know if those primaries are the exact coordinates for my individual display, or are they the generic ones that the manufacturer sets for each device of the product family? In any case, I guess it would be a good idea to create a 3dlut with them and use it, don't you think?
Thanks again!
P.S. I'm counting the days for your new version of cr3dlut to be released... :)
cyberlolo
6th March 2010, 14:07
I've got a Pioneer KRP, and I think it's contrast ratio is at least 16000:1. I can't say it for sure because the user manual only says "extreme", but in some internet sites, they say it's 16000:1. Also, you need to know that I mainly use HTPC for watching TV shows more than movies, and 99% of them are mkvs. I know that in movies (Blu-Rays, DVDs, BDRips, ...) there's valuable wtw info, but I'm not so sure regarding TV shows...
So, with my contrast ratio and viewing preferences, what's your advice: set it to 16-245 or to 16-255?
BTW, I've read the EDID of my TV, and in a section of that file there comes the color primaries of my display. Do you know if those primaries are the exact coordinates for my individual display, or are they the generic ones that the manufacturer sets for each device of the product family? In any case, I guess it would be a good idea to create a 3dlut with them and use it, don't you think?
Thanks again!
P.S. I'm counting the days for your new version of cr3dlut to be released... :)
@yesgrey:
I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I'm trying to get the best from my HTPC. So can you please answer me this 2 more questions?:
1) With my contrast ratio (16000:1) and viewing preferences (mkvs TV shows), what's your advice: set it to 16-245 or to 16-255?
2) Do you advice me to use the color primaries that come in the EDID of my TV creating a custom 3dlut, or that primaries are too generic and it's better to not use a custom 3dlut with them until I have the exact primaries of my display?
Thanks in advance!
yesgrey
6th March 2010, 18:04
So can you please answer me this 2 more questions?
1) My advice is to wait a little more, test both, and then decide for yourself. ;)
By the way, the other option is not 16-255, but 16-254, because the 255 value don't have any video data.
2) Yes, it might be a good idea, it should not hurt.
cyberlolo
6th March 2010, 19:59
1) My advice is to wait a little more, test both, and then decide for yourself. ;)
By the way, the other option is not 16-255, but 16-254, because the 255 value don't have any video data.
2) Yes, it might be a good idea, it should not hurt.
Yes, you're right, it's 16-254, sorry.
Thank you for your advices. I'll do what you say.
Fadeout
11th March 2010, 10:43
Ok, this is extremely weird. Today I was doing some experiments to check quality and at some point using MadVR I noticed a HUGE improvement.
After a lot of changes I figured out that I'm running some weird setup that seems NOT using MadVR. What I mean is that once I got MadVR properly running with CoreAVC the image quality was the same I had with the standard WMR9 + YV12 chroma upsampling shader (since without I get pixellated red with WMR9). So same quality image between MadVR and WMR9.
But this doesn't explain why at some point I had that MUCH improved video quality. I finally discovered that I can get it to show if I enable MadVR WITH DXVA enabled. If I run mpc-hc that way I get this weird much improved video quality. Under the filter menu I only see MPC Video Decoder (DXVA, even if it doesn't show DXVA at the info bar) and a mysterious "Video Render". MadVR isn't listed even if it's selected in the Options.
So the weird thing is:
- MadVR doesn't seem running.
- I get a kind of video output that looks incredibly sharp, no pixellated red, and can't reproduce this output with any combination of MadVR, WMR9, CoreAVC or DXVA.
I only get that output with MadVR enabled and DXVA. This on WinXP and an ATI videocard. Someone can explain what is going on? (can't post screenshots because I can't capture anything using this)
Astrophizz
11th March 2010, 11:17
"Video Render" is the fallback renderer, which means something is going wrong when you try to use MadVR.
Fadeout
11th March 2010, 11:23
After more research it seems that what I perceived as a much better quality is some slight edge sharpening.
But it is truly odd that this fallback render does edge sharpening and chroma upsampling on its own. How can this happen?
namaiki
11th March 2010, 14:43
Sounds like you might be using the Overlay renderer?
Regarding sharp - Fadeout, is there any resizing of the video frame being done there?
STaRGaZeR
12th March 2010, 15:52
After more research it seems that what I perceived as a much better quality is some slight edge sharpening.
But it is truly odd that this fallback render does edge sharpening and chroma upsampling on its own. How can this happen?
Maybe because your graphics card is doing the YCbCr --> RGB conversion, plus adding the EE.
kostik
13th March 2010, 12:03
Why dont I see any difference between turning 3dlut on and off?
I have made a costume 3dluts files.
PC:
# Example input file for cr3dlut v2.1 and up
#
# Settings for creating a 3D LUT for watching the following Video formats:
# Blu-ray, HD DVD, ATSC HD Broadcast, PAL HD Broadcast
# without any Display correction
# Includes YCbCr->RGB conversion using PC Levels (Black: 0 and White: 255)
# Set input bitdepth
Input_Bit_Depth 8
# Set source video format
Input_Video_Format HD YCbCr
# Set output bitdepth
Output_Bit_Depth 16
# Set display video format
Output_Video_Format HD RGB_PC
Chromatic_Adaptation 2
Input_Primaries 9 0.642 0.331 0.299 0.603 0.150 0.067 0.314 0.331
Output_Primaries 9 0.642 0.331 0.299 0.603 0.150 0.067 0.314 0.331
Input_Gamma 9 1.0 0.0 0.45 0.0
Output_Gamma 9 1.0 0.0 0.45 0.0
AND hd_video the same as in HD_PC just output video format is RGB_VIDEO.
Did I write it correctly?
the files that I made are : HD - Video.3dlut and HD - PC.3dlut.
I put the files in the main Madvr folder(including the txt files) and in the cr3dlut folder, the files before were erased.
thnx
yesgrey
13th March 2010, 15:16
Input_Primaries 9 0.642 0.331 0.299 0.603 0.150 0.067 0.314 0.331
Did I write it correctly?
Why are you setting input primaries? That option is to be used only when you're using a custom source format, and I think that's not your case... Try removing that line and try again.
kostik
13th March 2010, 17:04
Why are you setting input primaries? That option is to be used only when you're using a custom source format, and I think that's not your case... Try removing that line and try again.
thank you
GaBBa-Gandalf
17th March 2010, 03:28
Hi guys...
I guess all these settings etc. are highly complicated...
Is it possible, that we all wo knows about this stuff can write an more or less article about ist or at least want would be the best setting...
For example i have a HTPC with an ATI 5670 graphic card an an AVR (Denon 2309) which handle Deep Color....
But now i'm totally confused if i should use YCbCr (4:4:4 / 2:2:2) or RGB!?!
Sorry but the hole topic is just hard to understand ;)
GaBBa
peter0328
17th March 2010, 21:53
I just tried installing this renderer but as most other people have found attempting to play any file cause MPC HC to hang requiring me to end via task manager.
What do I need to do to fix this? Is there a specific NVIDIA driver I should install? Please link me to it if this is so.
My system settings and programs relating to media playback are:
NVIDIA driver 196.21
Win 7 Ultimate x64
ffdshow tryouts x64 revision 3305
MPC HC x86 build number 1.3.1752.0
Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3
GTX 295 Quad SLI
Core i7 920
Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD4P (BIOS F10)
All settings for MPC are default except madVR set as renderer and SPDIF output via Xonar is default. I also have changed AC3 and DTS to bitstream in MPC and via ffdshow settings (I also enabled TrueHD and DTS-HD MA bitstream in ffdshow settings). I disabled ffdshow DXVA in ffdshow settings and made ffdshow video output have only YV12 checked.
Please help me out if you can and let me know if I can provide anymore info if what I have included is not enough to diagnose/fix the problem.
djsolidsnake86
18th March 2010, 15:14
we will ever see 0.12?
kostik
18th March 2010, 16:14
Why when I add the gamma line in my 3dlut file ( I mentioned above), the blacks in dark scenes get whiter (white pixels).
These white pixelation happens only when the 3dlut file is on.
namaiki
18th March 2010, 17:18
NVIDIA driver 196.21
ffdshow tryouts x64 revision 3305
Try use forceware 18x.xx.
...
You must use 32-bit components.
yesgrey
18th March 2010, 19:54
Why when I add the gamma line in my 3dlut file ( I mentioned above), the blacks in dark scenes get whiter (white pixels).
That's a problem I'm aware of. You need to use the same gamma curve for both input and output at lower levels to avoid that.
kostik
18th March 2010, 20:03
That's a problem I'm aware of. You need to use the same gamma curve for both input and output at lower levels to avoid that.
how do I do that?
yesgrey
18th March 2010, 23:24
how do I do that?
show me the gamma line you have used.
kostik
19th March 2010, 08:39
show me the gamma line you have used.
Output_Gamma 9 1.0 0.0 0.45 0.0
yesgrey
19th March 2010, 17:36
Output_Gamma 9 1.0 0.0 0.45 0.0
Add this line too:
Input_Gamma 9 1.0 0.0 0.45 0.0
kostik
19th March 2010, 18:04
Add this line too:
Input_Gamma 9 1.0 0.0 0.45 0.0
I had done this before and some how I saw no change :\
When I had deleted the Input line I saw the change
yesgrey
19th March 2010, 23:44
Are you referring to the low level errors, or to gamma changes?
kostik
20th March 2010, 01:16
Are you referring to the low level errors, or to gamma changes?
gamma changes
yesgrey
20th March 2010, 03:46
gamma changes
So, try using both and change the 0.45 value between 0.4 and 0.5, but only in the output line. Don't mess with the input line.
cyberlolo
23rd March 2010, 13:56
@yesgrey3
How does your new version of cr3dlut go? Do you expect to release it soon?
Thanks in advance.
cyberlolo
24th March 2010, 14:25
By the way, can anybody confirm if it's recommended to use the VSYnc correction of ReClock with madVR, or if it's better to disable it and let madVR deal with the VSync itself?
cyberlolo
26th March 2010, 14:40
By the way, can anybody confirm if it's recommended to use the VSYnc correction of ReClock with madVR, or if it's better to disable it and let madVR deal with the VSync itself?
Any help here, please?
noee
26th March 2010, 15:24
You can try all combos. madVR allows you to disable it's "anti-tearing" fix, so give it a shot and see what works. I use Reclock with madVR and I have Reclock's vsynch turned off.
cyberlolo
27th March 2010, 03:52
You can try all combos. madVR allows you to disable it's "anti-tearing" fix, so give it a shot and see what works. I use Reclock with madVR and I have Reclock's vsynch turned off.
Ok, thank you for your help. In my system, it works better disabling ReClock's VSync correction, so madVR controls VSync itself.
SacredCultivator
29th March 2010, 22:01
Sorry to ask this, but for the Scaling Settings, are the defaults 'good'? As I'm not too sure which to set them to, given that I mainly watch things on my TV.
Not sure if mentioning my VIdeo Card helps, ATI Radeon 4830, 512MB
Current settings are:
SoftCubic50
Lanczos4
SoftCubic100
use 3dlut is checked
Thanks.
emre88
1st April 2010, 18:27
hello first ,
does anyone know how to use madVR with KmPlayer or any good player ? please reply , just tell me what should i get ? so i,ll do it , thanks .
namaiki
1st April 2010, 18:41
Easy should be MPC-HC.
For another player, you should be able to force MadVR to load as an external filter.
leeperry
1st April 2010, 19:36
anyone know how to use madVR with KmPlayer
How to use madVR (Madshi's Video Renderer) - The KMPlayer's Forums (http://www.kmplayer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14997)
emre88
1st April 2010, 22:47
How to use madVR (Madshi's Video Renderer) - The KMPlayer's Forums (http://www.kmplayer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14997)
i did try it already , it does not working anymore , someone says cause nvidia drivers , i dont know , i really need make that work :mad:
Easy should be MPC-HC.
For another player, you should be able to force MadVR to load as an external filter.
ok then , i'm going to try Media Player Classic - Home Cinema
oh .... , madVR doesnt working with mpc-hc too :S
whats the best equip for 1080p movies :(
namaiki
1st April 2010, 22:50
you need to use forceware older than ~191
Razoola
2nd April 2010, 08:08
you need to use forceware older than ~191
Not all forceware under 191 work either, it seems gfx card dependant, 185.85 does not work here for example on my gtx295 or gt240
yesgrey
2nd April 2010, 13:28
That's very odd... WHich OS are you running?
I'm using my GF 8600GT with 196.21 and it works fine. In both XP x64 and W7 x64.
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