madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Asmodian]

An i1d3 is a great addition to any display, but it does not help when deciding RGB or YCbCr. The banding caused by sending RGB full to an LG TV is not something that shows up during a calibration.

The same with the display port to HDMI adapter, if it isn't a levels change then any minor banding issues won't be obvious from measurements. If an adapter messes with the calibration to the point that you notice it as crush it is doing something very wrong.

[tp4tissue]

An i1d3 is a great addition to any display, but it does not help when deciding RGB or YCbCr. The banding caused by sending RGB full to an LG TV is not something that shows up during a calibration.

The same with the display port to HDMI adapter, if it isn't a levels change then any minor banding issues won't be obvious from measurements. If an adapter messes with the calibration to the point that you notice it as crush it is doing something very wrong.


With 3dlut, madvr can clear up almost all banding problems with its own dithering.

3dlut can also by itself rectify level mismatch, it will cause slight loss in contrast ratio vs level matched, but it's not significant. <this isn't how you should use it though>

The issue remains, people don't measure, and they don't know what to look out for because they've never seen proper gamma. This leads to all the guesswork arm chair decisions on what looks right. Just like when people recommend setting their playstation hdmi to full, which intentionally crushed gamma on displays expecting limited.

It's a systemic problem of poor av quality on the consumer side.

[Aceman21]

All my movies play great, until I try and watch gemini man. Does the 23 to 60 really make that much of a difference ?

[doffen]

Well it IS about 2,5 times as many frames per second, which means you need even shorter render time per frame for smooth playback.
In short: Yes it does.

[Aceman21]

Well it IS about 2,5 times as many frames per second, which means you need even shorter render time per frame for smooth playback.
In short: Yes it does.


Can I make a profile for hdr60 ? I don’t remember how to do that

[tp4tissue]

Hrrrm... If the scaling is linear 2.5-3x faster than a 1060 should do it, so a 2080ti and above may be able to do it. Anyone try gemini man full fat with 3070+ ?

[brazen1]

Can I make a profile for hdr60 ? I don’t remember how to do that

if (srcWidth > 1920) and (deintFps < 25) "2160p 24fps"
else if (srcWidth <= 1920) and (srcHeight > 1080) "2160p 24fps"
else if (srcheight <= 2160) and (deintFps > 58) "2160p 60fps"

else if (srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920) "1080p"
else if (srcWidth <= 1280) and ((srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p"

else if (srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280) "720p"
else if (srcWidth <= 960) and ((srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720)) "720p"

else if (srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight <= 540) "540p"

[brazen1]

Hrrrm... If the scaling is linear 2.5-3x faster than a 1060 should do it, so a 2080ti and above may be able to do it. Anyone try gemini man full fat with 3070+ ?

A GTX 960 (4GB) works fine.

[Aceman21]

if (srcWidth > 1920) and (deintFps < 25) "2160p 24fps"
else if (srcWidth <= 1920) and (srcHeight > 1080) "2160p 24fps"
else if (srcheight <= 2160) and (deintFps > 58) "2160p 60fps"

else if (srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920) "1080p"
else if (srcWidth <= 1280) and ((srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080)) "1080p"

else if (srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280) "720p"
else if (srcWidth <= 960) and ((srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720)) "720p"

else if (srcWidth <= 960) and (srcHeight <= 540) "540p"


Just copy an paste this to what I already have ?

[el Filou]

There's not a huge difference to the chroma upscalers.
Some color cast may show up in test patterns, but in real world, it's almost impossible to notice.When I did my tests which made me choose ReconSoft, I could see obvious differences in very small red objects in a scene (ReconSharp would render them way too saturated, all the other algos too muted), and yellow/orange/brown textures too.
It's a shame there's not a lot of native 4:4:4 samples of real scenes out there to be able to do better tests.I recently switched off Pure Direct mode on my set to test motion handling which is improved when off and as a result of that 4:4:4 is disabled.What TV do you have again? I tried to test it on my old plasma after reading your post but I fail to see an improvement in motion with Pure Direct off. Do you have a particular scene you like to test this?

[ryrynz]

What TV do you have again? I tried to test it on my old plasma after reading your post but I fail to see an improvement in motion with Pure Direct off. Do you have a particular scene you like to test this?

I read this online and it made sense, so I tested it and it's certainly a noticeable difference with motion. I have a Panasonic FZ-1000 OLED. Pick your fave panning scene.. If you have the new Suicide Squad there's a scene where it pans there near the beginning across the whole team after it breaks away from Savant, Peacekeeper's ass juddering across the scene was a noticeable tell.. Lol.

I use the PC for the odd browsing online and maybe the odd game too so my preference was 4:4:4 anyway but if the motion was that much better I was going to consider turning off Pure Direct. I just got to a point where I was like.. I don't like this panning performance any more, I'll sacrifice something to improve it.. And it ended up being motion resolution thanks to Smooth Motion's frame blending technique which when I had the Panny VT plasma I didn't bother with.

[chros]

According to Vincent (hdtvtest), there's no judder free 23p with chroma 444 on any of Panasonic Oleds :( Huhn used to tell the same for other Panasonic models as well in the past, so it must be a feature rather than a bug. That's why Panasonic was out of question for lot of us...
I guess the best option is to use 59/60p and use smoothmotion or just turn off PureDirect :(

[Stereodude]

I'm running the latest W10 build and I've no issues.
Reporting back, the RTX 3070 Ti seems to work fine under Windows 10 (21H1) after enabling Vsync for MPC-HC. It seems to have WAY more processing power vs. the GTX 1080. Render times are much lower with the same options/settings as the 1080.

[SamuriHL]

I'm sure it does. sigh. :)

[Stereodude]

I did notice that DXVA2 copy-back decoding has lower render times by a few ms for ~24Hz content (1080p & 2160p) than DirectX 11, but DirectX 11 is lower for ~60Hz content (2160p) by a few ms than DXVA2 copy-back. (All full screen content, so I'm not being thrown off by black bar detection / a reduced processing load.)

2160p60 is only 8-bit RGB output from madVR and 2160p24 is 10-bit RGB output from madVR so perhaps that's a reason why?

[Stereodude]

I'm sure it does. sigh. :)
On a 2.4:1 1080p Blu-ray rip I ran out of things to turn up. Was running very high NGU sharp scaling to 3840x2160p24 and had ~15ms render times (DXVA-2 CB w/ black bar detection on). :scared:

[ryrynz]

On a 2.4:1 1080p Blu-ray rip I ran out of things to turn up. Was running very high NGU sharp scaling to 3840x2160p24 and had ~15ms render times (DXVA-2 CB w/ black bar detection on). :scared:

15ms... Fans be like *gentle breeze*
NGU be like *I'm giving it all I've got Cap'n*

[ashlar42]

On a 2.4:1 1080p Blu-ray rip I ran out of things to turn up. Was running very high NGU sharp scaling to 3840x2160p24 and had ~15ms render times (DXVA-2 CB w/ black bar detection on). :scared:

I have a regular 3070 FE and I still have to test how far I could push it. Might end up settling for settings that avoid wasting a hundred watts for unnoticeable improvements.

[el Filou]

It's nice to have confirmation the doubled float units of Ampere do indeed work well with madVR.
I hope they eventually release a lower power 3050 model for desktop at 70-90W, would make a nice upgrade for my 1050 Ti (if the prices finally get reasonable, of course).

[DMU]

Please explain the difference between the messages in the OSD madVR:
limited range (say upstream) vs limited range (best guess)
And what conclusions can be drawn from these messages?

[huhn]

best guess the upstream doesn't have the information.
says upstream means the file is properly flagged.

[SamuriHL]

On a 2.4:1 1080p Blu-ray rip I ran out of things to turn up. Was running very high NGU sharp scaling to 3840x2160p24 and had ~15ms render times (DXVA-2 CB w/ black bar detection on). :scared:

I wish. My HTPC is down again as some people know from the other thread. Between lack of being able to find a new card, money to actually buy one, and time to mess around with the whole thing, all I can do is drool. LOL Some day I will get my hands on a new card, be it a 3080 or a 40x0 card. I do miss madvr, though.....

[Perenista]

I am having a problem with this video:

Video
ID : 1
Format : VC-1
Format profile : Advanced@L2
Codec ID : V_MS/VFW/FOURCC / WVC1
Codec ID/Hint : Microsoft
Duration : 1 h 11 min
Bit rate : 7 451 kb/s
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 3:2
Original display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Bottom Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.719
Stream size : 3.70 GiB (79%)
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No

While using MPC-BE and madVR. It doesn't happen with VLC, for example.

The video is suttering. Seems to be dropping frames all the time. This is my current config (onboard video), 16 GB of RAM, SSD, Windows 10-64 bit:
https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/7d502176
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/br/pt/ark/products/75122/intel-core-i7-4770-processor-8m-cache-up-to-3-90-ghz.html

Trying at 4K@30 Hz.

I tried resetting madVR settings and nothing changed. I know this monitor needs a new CPU/motherboard/etc. and a GPU, but this is a 1080p small video and it should work exactly like the rest. What is different in this case is the 29.970 framerate, which apparently madVR can't handle. I noticed this issue with 60 fps content, however it's the first time I am seeing with 30. It must be some madVR setting or MPC-BE's.

[Asmodian]

Can you post a screenshot of madVR's OSD (ctrl-J) while the video is playing (not paused)?

[digimaster]

Hi,

due to bad color space management in an (old) LG OLED TV I need to create two Display Properties profiles: the first 8-bit if the video signal is SDR and the second 10-bit if the video signal is HDR . The problem is that when these profiles are created, the HDR signal is no longer sent to the TV (even if the profile is correctly selected and the OSD reports "AMD HDR"). It seems to be a bug. Any suggestions?

[Perenista]

Can you post a screenshot of madVR's OSD (ctrl-J) while the video is playing (not paused)?Here it is:

https://i.postimg.cc/nz6CRPC7/PHOTO.png

After a few seconds playing...

[Asmodian]

On Windows 10 it is good to set the present queue to 1 (definitely not above 3).

It looks like the decode queue is not full, this tells me the issue is before madVR or during the handoff to madVR, or at least that the decode is slower than expected. What happens if you run DXVA2 native in LAV Video?

[ryrynz]

I've actually set my present queue above 1 now on my 3060 and it's fine (currently 4) the only thing I've changed recently is the gpu scheduling option in Windows.
I've also changed the flushing options back and it's still fine with seeking too *shrug* XD

[Perenista]

On Windows 10 it is good to set the present queue to 1 (definitely not above 3).

It looks like the decode queue is not full, this tells me the issue is before madVR or during the handoff to madVR, or at least that the decode is slower than expected. What happens if you run DXVA2 native in LAV Video?Things improved when I changed to 1

********
windowed and exclusive mode settings

- present several frames in advance: [Enabled] Uses a new method for presenting frames in advance instead of using a back-buffer queue.

- how many video frames shall be presented in advance or how many backbuffers shall be used: [8 or 3] The present queue, a final buffer in DirectX, after madVR sends completed frames to Windows. (here)

- when and how shall the GPU be flushed: [flush, flush & wait (sleep), don't flush, don't flush] To be able to display rendering times in the OSD the '... after last render step' must be one of the 'flush & wait' options.
***********

But it's still not smooth as it could be.

*******
What happens if you run DXVA2 native in LAV Video?
*******

How can I do that?

[el Filou]

I am having a problem with this video:

Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) FPS
Scan type : Interlaced
https://i.postimg.cc/nz6CRPC7/PHOTO.pngIt looks like the decode queue is not full, this tells me the issue is before madVR or during the handoff to madVR, or at least that the decode is slower than expected.The display is set to 30 Hz when the video is 30i (well, 29.97i) so it's being deinterlaced to 60p (59.94p) and therefore half the frames are being dropped because they simply can't be displayed. Display must be set to 60 Hz.

[Perenista]

The display is set to 30 Hz when the video is 30i (well, 29.97i) so it's being deinterlaced to 60p (59.94p) and therefore half the frames are being dropped because they simply can't be displayed. Display must be set to 60 Hz.I know this monitor will remain shitty until I switch to HDMI higher than 1.4 and use its 60 Hz (with its native 4K resolution) in a new computer.

It can display 60Hz under lower resolutions, however I am not going to use them anymore.

Even so, you seem to be missing one crucial detail:

- VLC can display that same file in my monitor with no dropped frames at all. Including watching in fullscreen!

Also in my iPAD Pro 10.5 using nPlayer Plus app, the same file plays fine.

- MPC-HC or BE using madVR can't.

So this tells me madVR has an internal bug for this scenario or I need to find a hidden setting within MPC (or madVR) to fix this (most likely this is the case). So it could be displayed even at such condition (with such file) as it is now in VLC.

And apparently the stuttering and dropping of frames is only happening while going fullscreen with MPC/madVR, not in window mode.

This is the list of filters being loaded while MPC-HC is running:

https://i.postimg.cc/V6XcFS8m/11x.png

[el Filou]

Is your monitor already at 4K 30 Hz on your desktop, or have you set madVR to switch it to 4K 30 Hz?
There may be an additional issue on top of it, but all I know is it's not possible to play this kind of file correctly while running the monitor at 30 Hz.
Maybe VLC is blending the frames together to get 30p instead of correctly deinterlacing them, but this lowers quality.
I don't know about if the iPad can deinterlace, but it has a 60 Hz display so in any case it doesn't need to drop frames.

Try pressing Ctrl+Alt+Shift+D when playing with madVR, this will disable deinterlacing and play at 30 fps, and see if it's better.

Is this from a video source, like documentary or studio TV or sports? If yes then you'll always get lower quality when displaying at 30 Hz.
If this is from a film source, you can try to force film mode in madVR with Ctrl+Alt+Shift+T but it may get juddery.

[DMU]

Hi,

due to bad color space management in an (old) LG OLED TV I need to create two Display Properties profiles: the first 8-bit if the video signal is SDR and the second 10-bit if the video signal is HDR . The problem is that when these profiles are created, the HDR signal is no longer sent to the TV (even if the profile is correctly selected and the OSD reports "AMD HDR"). It seems to be a bug. Any suggestions?

Check out my post (http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=611) from madshi bug tracker.

[Perenista]

Is your monitor already at 4K 30 Hz on your desktop, or have you set madVR to switch it to 4K 30 Hz?
There may be an additional issue on top of it, but all I know is it's not possible to play this kind of file correctly while running the monitor at 30 Hz.
Maybe VLC is blending the frames together to get 30p instead of correctly deinterlacing them, but this lowers quality.
I don't know about if the iPad can deinterlace, but it has a 60 Hz display so in any case it doesn't need to drop frames.

Try pressing Ctrl+Alt+Shift+D when playing with madVR, this will disable deinterlacing and play at 30 fps, and see if it's better.

Is this from a video source, like documentary or studio TV or sports? If yes then you'll always get lower quality when displaying at 30 Hz.
If this is from a film source, you can try to force film mode in madVR with Ctrl+Alt+Shift+T but it may get juddery.The desktop is set at 4K@30 Hz.

Deactivating deinterlacing in madVR settings fixed the problem. No more dropped frames. And you can now watch even in fullscreen mode smoothly.

There's just one thing: VLC can play this file making it look like deinterlace was applied. If you watch the same content (and this is from a film source) you'll notice the image looks worse in MPC-HC and madVR, and if you pause the video the interlaced lines will be painfully visible.

So that means VLC is doing its job while MPC-HC and madVR are not.

If I try downloading any 60 fps Youtube video and watch in this monitor, if I use 30 Hz of course there will be dropped frames. But if I get your point then this particular video is at 29.970 fps and needs deinterlace (which equals 60p), however VLC is sending a 30p signal to this PC/monitor while deinterlacing, and madVR can't do that unless the signal is treated as 60p. Which causes the stuttering.

So the fault here lies with madVR and MPC-HC.

I believe there's a setting that:

- Applies deinterlacing
- Still sends a 30p signal, so even in my condition there are no dropped frames.

MPC is capable of forcing 30p even at fullscreen, but I don't think this thing is working:

https://i.postimg.cc/yY6b67Pf/SETTS.png

[clsid]

That is a setting for changing the refreshrate of the screen. That is obviously not what you need, so stop touching settings that you don't understand.

MPC-HC options > Internal Filters > Transform Filters
1) Enable VC-1 and WMV1/2/3
2) Click on Video Decoder and enable Yadif software deinterlacing

Then madVR should get 60fps input.

[huhn]

madVR has an option to deint to 30 fps. this option is under "trade quality for performance" use half frame rate for DXVA deint lavfilter can do this too
this should not be used and you should use 60 hz output instead.

SM is technically an option too but just no.
madVR can't properly decimate.

[el Filou]

Then madVR should get 60fps input.This would be worse because Perenista wants to use the display at 4K in which it's limited to 30 Hz.madVR can't properly decimate.I've had some success by setting Deinterlacing Mode to Force in LAV and then forcing film mode in madVR. It was on an old SD Japanese movie converted to AVI so no idea if it works for all cases.There's just one thing: VLC can play this file making it look like deinterlace was applied. If you watch the same content (and this is from a film source) you'll notice the image looks worse in MPC-HC and madVR, and if you pause the video the interlaced lines will be painfully visible.

So that means VLC is doing its job while MPC-HC and madVR are not.If you're sure this is a film source then VLC may be correctly detecting it and applying inverse telecine and getting back 24p from it (not 30p), which is how it should be done ideally. (this is just a guess, I never use VLC, it's also possible it's doing dumb blending which is bad deinterlacing, I don't know)

You're right, this is a limitation of madVR: it can also do that, but for it to work you can't use native hardware decoding of the video, and I think that's what the WMV Video decoder DMO is doing.
In MPC-HC, this can be worked around by setting the video decoder to DXVA2 copy-back (or unchecking VC-1, which will use software).
It's a bit of a mess and I wish there weren't features of madVR that only work in some decoding modes but that will never change now unfortunately.

[digimaster]

Check out my post (http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=611) from madshi bug tracker.

Many thanks to report this! We can only hope that Madshi will fix it ASAP...

[DMU]

Many thanks to report this! We can only hope that Madshi will fix it ASAP...
You can use "bitDepth" instead of "HDR" to define HDR content like on my screenshot from the bug-tracker post.

[huhn]

I've had some success by setting Deinterlacing Mode to Force in LAV and then forcing film mode in madVR. It was on an old SD Japanese movie converted to AVI so no idea if it works for all cases.
decimation is only related to dropped frames because the FPS is higher than the screen HZ else there is no issue with this.


If you're sure this is a film source then VLC may be correctly detecting it and applying inverse telecine and getting back 24p from it (not 30p), which is how it should be done ideally. (this is just a guess, I never use VLC, it's also possible it's doing dumb blending which is bad deinterlacing, I don't know)

it has automatic just like madVR which "doesn't" work just like madVR too default is yadif 2x.
the IVTC in VLC is more of discard than field matching. there is also only "software" deint no adaptative stuff.

[digimaster]

You can use "bitDepth" instead of "HDR" to define HDR content like on my screenshot from the bug-tracker post.

Yes, indeed. I had already thought about it. It seems to work perfectly;)

[Perenista]

How do I reset madVR to all default settings? Using MPC-BE.

[ryrynz]

How do I reset madVR to all default settings? Using MPC-BE.You don't use the media player. Use the restore default settings batch file in the installation directory.

[Perenista]

Here's the thing...

I removed K-Lite codec pack, so when I tried playing anything with MPC-BE it said madVR was not installed.

So I downloaded from this thread and installed again. With the default settings.

Once again I am faced with a problematic video. Slowdowns regardless if it's in window mode or fullscreen.

And this time it has nothing to do with being interlaced. This video always played fine everywhere. And it is playing fine if I use VLC.

What is going on? MEDIAINFO:

https://pastebin.com/wSinm4d2

Again with the dropped frames?

https://i.postimg.cc/L6vY1VnD/DATA.png

So madVR can only play fine if I use a GPU and 60 Hz monitor?

That is what is implied here. It has to be some incompatibility with my current build.

[Asmodian]

Your GPU is too slow. Average Rendering time is 50ms, but the frames only last 41.7ms. This means a lot of then get dropped.

The 30 Hz display is not the problem.

[Perenista]

VLC for that video = CPU 20-25% / 40% memory / 47% GPU (fullscreen) or 20% in window mode

MPC-BE using madVR = CPU 35% / 44% memory / 45% GPU in window mode or 60 % in fullscreen

I was going to rectify my previous post by saying that without a GPU 4K videos would not play fine in this computer, but this video is an exception. It's not that heavy like others which are 5-6 times bigger.

So is madVR not only incompatible with this 30 Hz config, it has been optimized for newer builds? That would explain everything.

By "optimized" I mean trying to suck every single resource from my machine.

Changing a few madVR settings apparently doesn't fix these slowdowns.

Your GPU is too slow. Average Rendering time is 50ms, but the frames only last 41.7ms. This means a lot of then get dropped.

The 30 Hz display is not the problem.Even if that's the case, how do you explain VLC?

It can't be because the image is degraded, that's why even in this old build it can be played fine, with no dropped frames like crazy.

[nevcairiel]

The upload queue is running empty, which means the images aren't being delivered to the GPU fast enough. You would probably have to use a "native" mode hardware decoder to avoid that bottleneck.

[Asmodian]

So is madVR not only incompatible with this 30 Hz config, it has been optimized for newer builds? That would explain everything.

No, of course not. Why do you think the 30Hz is related to the issue at all? You are jumping to conclusions without understanding how any of this works. :eek:


Even if that's the case, how do you explain VLC?


madVR is slower than whatever VLC uses to render the video. This is as expected; VLC is optimized for speed and madVR is optimized for quality.

Are you using copyback or software decoding in LAV filters? I notice even the upload queue is not full, so it looks like a CPU to GPU bandwidth issue more than a raw GPU core performance issue. DXVA2 native decodes the video on the GPU and leaves the decoded data in the GPU's memory. DXVA2 copyback copies the decoded data back from the GPU to the CPU's memory and then madVR has to copy it back to the GPU, if the CPU <-> GPU memory bandwidth is too low this will cause dropped frames.

VLC is likely using its version of DXVA2 native decoding already.

[Perenista]

You are right about the 30Hz, it doesn't make any difference if I change this monitor to 1080p@60 hz or any lower setting.

I have no idea how to fix this. Whatever config I try here results in this particular video with slowdowns and dropped frames.

MPC-BE 1.5.8.6302
Filters currently loaded:
- Default DirectSound Device
- madVR Renderer
- ffdshow Audio Processor
- MPC Video Decoder
- Audio Switcher
- MPC Audio Decoder
- LAV Splitter Source

I decided to take screenshots (31 total) from ALL madVR settings and also MPC-BE if you care to take a look. I even posted what is my current hardware... so now it should be clear what is going on:

https://imgur.com/a/Urbac7u

[Asmodian]

The setting you need to change would be in MPC Video Decoder, or perhaps change the video decoder to LAV Video.