madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[*Touche*]

OK, sounds good! There'll be a slight delay as I'm getting the 20% overclocked version (http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4984&dl=#ov) for an extra 10 bucks actually. This is as fast as maxwell will go :)

For the record, I managed to get the 7850 to BSOD using the latest WHQL 13.12 drivers on W7SP1 while rolling custom PS scripts in mVR....luckily the black screens I was getting on XP are history but the BSOD with PS scripts is still there(atkdiag-something, both on XP & W7).

I see people complaining that AMD only release beta drivers these days when nvidia do their homework with proper updated WHQL builds, hard to disagree. This said, I've always read people raving about AMD's subjectively superior PQ..we'll see about that as it's undeniable that my 7850 looks outstanding with mVR :cool:

Your OC is obviously not stable.

WHQL doesn't mean anything. Nvidia's drivers are also mostly beta and their WHQL drivers killed cards.

PQ was probably regarding the VGA and S-video picture.

[leeperry]

That BSOD was a few months ago when room temperature was much lower and the white dots I've been getting recently got nothing to do with overclocking, it's just that capping the GPU fans to 20% is only sufficient during winter...spring calls for whiney 22% and summer for screaming 25% I guess(not like I plan on finding out :D).

My point is that the latest WHQL AMD drivers aren't all that stable when rolling custom PS scripts half a dozen times in a row using PotP IME. This said, the infamous 7850 black screen that occured on XP a few times never did on W7, AMD made clear that this issue was partly due to their drivers and that they ironed it out. As usual, sloppy XP drivers at work.

We'll see about all that, I will calibrate the hell out of the 750Ti & I sure like the idea of CUVID deinterlacing & tearing-free windowed video without needing Aero :)

[huhn]

CUVID deint is the same like dxva deint the case you linked me where dxva deint was very bad but CUVID was totally fine was an madvr only problem EVR doesn't got this problem.
both use dxva to decode the stream both use the same logic to deinterlace the stream too.

but i like to see how good maxwell deint is. or if they simply use the same old deint like in kempler.

[tp4tissue]

I tried a whole bunch of configs/reformat/updates/official-beta drivers.. giving up...

No go with NED 2x luma on 1920x1080 to 2560x1600 ...

Tried both my 7970cfx and 7870xt downstairs..

/Cry really loudly

I'm willing to buy a 290x.... Anyone try NED 2xluma @ 19x10 to 25x16..


I do not care about 720p performance because it's 1:1 using nearest neighbor. perfect scaling

[huhn]

can you check your pci-e speed? it's maybe impossible with pci-e 2.0 or even 3.0 with amd. a real fast nvidia should do the trick.

[nevcairiel]

He uses nearest neighbor and calls it perfect scaling, he is beyond help. :)

[huhn]

nearest neighbor sounds fine to me for x2 resizing

[Stereodude]

In 87.7 and 87.9 MadVR does not switch into FSE correctly on the first attempt for me. Alt+Enter to go back to windowed mode, and then another time to go to full screen again works. 87.4 worked okay on the first try. I haven't tried any of the intermediate releases.

I'm using Win 7 x64 with MPC-HC 1.7.3 using the Intel HD4600 graphics in my i7-4770k. I'm not able to get a complete screenshot with the image, but here's what I could save: http://imgur.com/qcL5sra (http://i.imgur.com/qcL5sra.jpg)

[nevcairiel]

nearest neighbor sounds fine to me for x2 resizing

Chroma is always x2, have fun with NN then? :p

Just because its a x2 scaling doesn't make NN a valid choice. It may be sharp, but it'll also be aliased like mad.
If you value quality, NN is never a valid choice, except maybe for pixel art due to lack of a pixel-art optimized scaler.

Obviously its a matter of opinion, but when it comes to NN, I rather comment on it that its not a good idea, otherwise some people just looking for advice pick a bad setting from reading it.

[huhn]

i never said i like or use it but NN with x2 doesn't destroy the Picture like it does with x1.95 or something like that. the picture stays original this way. it simply turns his display into a 1280x720p displays without adding any artefacts, but you will see the aliasng of the picture. if someone like the original picture this is a very good way to get it...

Obviously its a matter of opinion, but when it comes to NN, I rather comment on it that its not a good idea, otherwise some people just looking for advice pick a bad setting from reading it.

true

[RBG]

Can somebody tell me what algorithm is used in NNEDI3 upscaling or at least point out where I can read about it? :confused: I can't find any useful source.

[nevcairiel]

Can somebody tell me what algorithm is used in NNEDI3 upscaling or at least point out where I can read about it? :confused: I can't find any useful source.

NNEDI3 is the name of the algorithm.

[RBG]

NNEDI3 is the name of the algorithm.

Ok, and where can I read about this algorithm?

[Guest]

Do a google search for edge directed interpolation (EDI). tritical implements it with a neural network (NN). Further discussion should be in a new thread or an existing related thread.

[leeperry]

CUVID deint is the same like dxva deint the case you linked me where dxva deint was very bad but CUVID was totally fine
I remember something along the lines of "pixel adaptive deinterlacing" in nvidia's sales pitch...and IIRC when I compared 576i25@50p between YADIF & non-HQ CUVID deinterlacing, the latter looked quite a bit better so HQ might further help.

The whole point for me with CUVID is that it runs on the GPU(using the PureVideo routines so it's not hogging mVR's potential cycles) & it especially doesn't work behind Reclock's back...I can just pop a PAL or NTSC interlaced video DVD in, LAV does the 2X magic, mVR rolls refresh rates automatically et voilà: 50/59.94fps video upscaled via NNEDI, what a fantastic way to give DVD's a second youth :)

James Cameron said that he would prefer a higher fps rate over a higher resolution and I haven't run any real-world comparison but there's a good chance that I would pick NNEDI'ed 540p59.94/576p50 DVD's over 25/29.97 720p.

Do a google search for edge directed interpolation (EDI). tritical implements it with a neural network (NN). Further discussion should be in a new thread or an existing related thread.
Yeah, even tritical isn't too verbose regarding how NNEDI achieves those impressive results......but this link (http://chiranjivi.tripod.com/EDITut.html) is kinda clear on what EDI really does and how stunning it looks :cool:

[G_M_C]

[...]we'll see about that as it's undeniable that my 7850 looks outstanding with mVR :cool: [...]

Hear! Hear! :D

As does mine! Especially so since I can use NNEdi chroma upscaling for most situations on my HD7850.

[annovif]

I've understood that now, nvidia has 20-30% more efficiency with NNEDI than Ati .

[turbojet]

Another advantage I found of new window mode is it properly detects video when film mode is forced as 2:2.

Would it be possible to detect between 25/29 and 50/59 native fps rather than toggling double framerate deinterlacing? A lot of interlaced footage is only 25/29, there isn't any advantage to outputting this at 50/59 fps is there?

[nevcairiel]

A lot of interlaced footage is only 25/29, there isn't any advantage to outputting this at 50/59 fps is there?

If its interlaced, then it needs to be output at twice its rate (ie one frame for each field), or you lose information.

[Anime Viewer]

I remember something along the lines of "pixel adaptive deinterlacing" in nvidia's sales pitch...and IIRC when I compared 576i25@50p between YADIF & non-HQ CUVID deinterlacing, the latter looked quite a bit better so HQ might further help.

The whole point for me with CUVID is that it runs on the GPU(using the PureVideo routines so it's not hogging mVR's potential cycles) & it especially doesn't work behind Reclock's back...I can just pop a PAL or NTSC interlaced video DVD in, LAV does the 2X magic, mVR rolls refresh rates automatically et voilà: 50/59.94fps video upscaled via NNEDI, what a fantastic way to give DVD's a second youth :)


The problem with Nvidia hardware acceleration is things like this:

https://esports.geforce.com/forums/topic/527075/geforce-drivers/hardware-acceleration-decoding-issue/1

and

https://esports.geforce.com/forums/topic/616833/geforce-drivers/hardware-acceleration-decoding-issue-new-/

[DragonQ]

Another advantage I found of new window mode is it properly detects video when film mode is forced as 2:2.

Would it be possible to detect between 25/29 and 50/59 native fps rather than toggling double framerate deinterlacing? A lot of interlaced footage is only 25/29, there isn't any advantage to outputting this at 50/59 fps is there?
Interlaced footage by its nature is going to be 50/60 fps. If it's PsF (progressively-segmented-frames) then it should be weaved to 25/30 fps instead. nVidia's "video mode" deinterlacing algorithm detects this situation pretty well IME and will apply weaving as appropriate.

AMD's vector adaptive deinterlacer seems to detect this well too. Makes you wonder why so many TVs (even high end ones) seem to have issues detecting 2:2 cadence.

[Ceremony]

@madshi, if you ever get into (h)UMA, just give me a call/pm for testing. I switched to a AMD APU (A10-7850K) :D

[nevcairiel]

The problem with Nvidia hardware acceleration is things like this:

https://esports.geforce.com/forums/topic/527075/geforce-drivers/hardware-acceleration-decoding-issue/1

and

https://esports.geforce.com/forums/topic/616833/geforce-drivers/hardware-acceleration-decoding-issue-new-/

The first issue is fixed on Maxwell cards, I didn't test the second, but it might as well be.
Its a very rare occurrence really, I've never encountered it in any real video, only weird short sample clips people post here.

If you want to compare, AMDs hardware acceleration is anything but glamorous.

[turbojet]

If its interlaced, then it needs to be output at twice its rate (ie one frame for each field), or you lose information.

29 and 59 (http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/70063) look identical to me (dithering so not exactly)[/URL].
EDIT: removed video link, it wasn't native 29.

Interlaced footage by its nature is going to be 50/60 fps. If it's PsF (progressively-segmented-frames) then it should be weaved to 25/30 fps instead. nVidia's "video mode" deinterlacing algorithm detects this situation pretty well IME and will apply weaving as appropriate.

AMD's vector adaptive deinterlacer seems to detect this well too. Makes you wonder why so many TVs (even high end ones) seem to have issues detecting 2:2 cadence.

I can only speak for nvidia but yes it does handle it well but madvr is using much more gpu outputting to 59 fps.

[6233638]

The problem with Nvidia hardware acceleration is things like thisThis is an issue with hardware acceleration in general. Maybe not those specific samples, but you will be able to find ones which do the same thing on AMD/Intel as well, I'm sure.

But this is extremely rare if you are watching commercial content i.e. Blu-ray discs. I've only seen it happen twice out of probably thousands of discs at this point.

[Asmodian]

The whole point for me with CUVID is that it runs on the GPU(using the PureVideo routines so it's not hogging mVR's potential cycles) & it especially doesn't work behind Reclock's back...I can just pop a PAL or NTSC interlaced video DVD in, LAV does the 2X magic, mVR rolls refresh rates automatically et voilà: 50/59.94fps video upscaled via NNEDI, what a fantastic way to give DVD's a second youth :)

The deinterlacing is not done entirely by PureVideo, that handles the decoding but not all the computation required for deinterlacing. At least this was true for VP5 and it is probably the same for VP6. Remember the GT520 when VP5 first came out that used lower quality deinterlacing because it didn't have enough shaders for the higher quality deinterlacing?


29 and 59 (http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/70063) look identical to me (dithering so not exactly) on a 29 fps source (http://www.mediafire.com/download/m29vl4b4y0qk93g/29.mpg).

Screenshots to show the difference or lack thereof between 29 and 59 fps? :rolleyes: Try watching a panning shot, someone running, or something with motion.

If you do not trust nevcairiel on this point, this is from 100fps.com interlaced video (http://www.100fps.com/)
"Because of this time intermix (1 frame=time1+time2) it is impossible to:

1) deinterlace a frame
AND 2) keep 25 frames/second
AND 3) keep the full quality (=all information of a picture).
Impossible. You will have to alter at least one of those points. Except, when there was no motion."

[bombadilio]

Anyone figure out how to get this to work with 4k video started using SVP and cant figure out the best way to upconvert 4k video to 60 fps

[Asmodian]

Anyone figure out how to get this to work with 4k video started using SVP and cant figure out the best way to upconvert 4k video to 60 fps

What to work with 4k video? madVR works with 4k 60 fps video for me.

But this is extremely rare if you are watching commercial content i.e. Blu-ray discs. I've only seen it happen twice out of probably thousands of discs at this point.

It seems like it is usually a problem with broadcast streams more than blu-ray as it is due to errors or other issues with the stream that are unlikely to make it onto a pressed disc.

I think AMD has recently put some effort into making their hardware decoding more resilient and I have been unable to find any recent reports of issues like those but there was this example (http://cinch83.blog.de/2010/04/30/ati-uvd-with-bad-error-concealment-7946098/) from 2010.

Of course they have their own odd random issues (http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=380114).

[turbojet]

Asmodian: I'm not talking about playing native 59 fps at 29 or 59, 59 would be optimal and that's what all those samples (except mousse_smooth_big.avi is kind of close, duplicate frames to go from 24 to 50) on 100fps is discussing. I'm talking about native 29 fps played at 59 fps by duplicating every frame. Is there some advantage to it or is it just a waste of gpu and would be better off just playing at 29 fps?

Nevermind the video sample above, it played in wtv as 29 and 59 fps but detects as 3:2 in mpg. I think it's a potplayer issue, resolution is detected wrong too.

Here's a native 29 fps video. (http://www.mediafire.com/download/wp5n1x3a7g5odat/29+deint%3Dvideo.mpg) Screenshots (http://www.mediafire.com/download/ywfl3yo2wpvb5c5/29-59screens.zip) of a 29 fps frame is bit identical to the 2 59 fps frames.

This could be about a 50% performance gain with the relatively common native 29 fps videos when double rate deinterlacing is enabled. Another large performance gain could be checking 50 and 59 fps for film. It's quite common to see film in 720p59. Just giving madshi some ideas if he hasn't already thought about it. i can provide samples when the time comes.

[StinDaWg]

I've been messing with the settings trying to get the best setup for 720p->1080p NNEDI3 doubling, and I was noticing something was off but I couldn't pinpoint it until now. No matter what algorithm I use for downscaling, I get aliasing with text if anti-ringing is used. Anything else and text looks great, even Lanczos4 (no AR). Has anyone else noticed this or knows why this happens? I don't see any more ringing with it turned off, so I'm just going to leave it off for now.

[huhn]

I've been messing with the settings trying to get the best setup for 720p->1080p NNEDI3 doubling, and I was noticing something was off but I couldn't pinpoint it until now. No matter what algorithm I use for downscaling, I get aliasing with text if anti-ringing is used. Anything else and text looks great, even Lanczos4 (no AR). Has anyone else noticed this or knows why this happens? I don't see any more ringing with it turned off, so I'm just going to leave it off for now.

can you provide a short sample where this is happing?

Asmodian: I'm not talking about playing native 59 fps at 29 or 59, 59 would be optimal and that's what all those samples (except mousse_smooth_big.avi is kind of close, duplicate frames to go from 24 to 50) on 100fps is discussing. I'm talking about native 29 fps played at 59 fps by duplicating every frame. Is there some advantage to it or is it just a waste of gpu and would be better off just playing at 29 fps?

if DEINT is used on a 2:2 or 3:2 cadence clip it BOB/line double each field and the inverse telecine/pulldown detection from nvidi/amd isn't working then you lose picture informations.

if MadVR IVTC is used you can easily watch them as 29/25/23 or what ever it is after IVTC no harm done

Here's a native 29 fps video. Screenshots of a 29 fps frame is bit identical to the 2 59 fps frames.
this should happen with IVTC with DEINT this is the case http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=170420

[Asmodian]

Asmodian: I'm not talking about playing native 59 fps at 29 or 59, 59 would be optimal and that's what all those samples (except mousse_smooth_big.avi is kind of close, duplicate frames to go from 24 to 50) on 100fps is discussing. I'm talking about native 29 fps played at 59 fps by duplicating every frame. Is there some advantage to it or is it just a waste of gpu and would be better off just playing at 29 fps?

Nevermind the video sample above, it played in wtv as 29 and 59 fps but detects as 3:2 in mpg. I think it's a potplayer issue, resolution is detected wrong too.

Here's a native 29 fps video. (http://www.mediafire.com/download/wp5n1x3a7g5odat/29+deint%3Dvideo.mpg) Screenshots (http://www.mediafire.com/download/ywfl3yo2wpvb5c5/29-59screens.zip) of a 29 fps frame is bit identical to the 2 59 fps frames.

This could be about a 50% performance gain with the relatively common native 29 fps videos when double rate deinterlacing is enabled. Another large performance gain could be checking 50 and 59 fps for film. It's quite common to see film in 720p59. Just giving madshi some ideas if he hasn't already thought about it. i can provide samples when the time comes.

100fps.com is talking about normal 25i video, it has 50 points in time at half vertical resolution... that is the definition of 25i. It is the same for 29i. All those examples are after deinterlacing, they started with 25i. Except mousse_smooth_big.avi should have been IVTC'ed back to 24 fps instead of deinterlaced.

Your sample seems to be a native 59 fps progressive? I do not see any dup frames. Are you talking about real interlaced material or telecined material? In my experience native 29 fps progressive is pretty rare.

Talking about real interlaced 29 fps video; you need to take it to 59 to deinterlace without losing information. Half rate is an option if you want to use it.

A film in 720p59? I assume it was telecined and then double rate deinterlaced? Nasty and sounds hard to IVTC, the deinterlacing would mess that up.

[DragonQ]

Asmodian: I'm not talking about playing native 59 fps at 29 or 59, 59 would be optimal and that's what all those samples (except mousse_smooth_big.avi is kind of close, duplicate frames to go from 24 to 50) on 100fps is discussing. I'm talking about native 29 fps played at 59 fps by duplicating every frame. Is there some advantage to it or is it just a waste of gpu and would be better off just playing at 29 fps?

Nevermind the video sample above, it played in wtv as 29 and 59 fps but detects as 3:2 in mpg. I think it's a potplayer issue, resolution is detected wrong too.

Here's a native 29 fps video. (http://www.mediafire.com/download/wp5n1x3a7g5odat/29+deint%3Dvideo.mpg) Screenshots (http://www.mediafire.com/download/ywfl3yo2wpvb5c5/29-59screens.zip) of a 29 fps frame is bit identical to the 2 59 fps frames.

This could be about a 50% performance gain with the relatively common native 29 fps videos when double rate deinterlacing is enabled. Another large performance gain could be checking 50 and 59 fps for film. It's quite common to see film in 720p59. Just giving madshi some ideas if he hasn't already thought about it. i can provide samples when the time comes.
If the frames are identical then the GPU's cadence detection is working and everything's fine. I can think of two disadvantages to doing this compared to using MadVR's IVTC: it presumably increases GPU usage since the video is now 50 fps instead of 25 fps, and it might affect the result of Smooth Motion. The main advantage I can think of is that you don't have to manually change settings when switching between interlaced and PsF video.

100fps.com is talking about normal 25i video, it has 50 points in time at half vertical resolution... that is the definition of 25i. It is the same for 29i. All those examples are after deinterlacing, they started with 25i. Except mousse_smooth_big.avi should have been IVTC'ed back to 24 fps instead of deinterlaced.

Your sample seems to be a native 59 fps progressive? I do not see any dup frames. Are you talking about real interlaced material or telecined material? In my experience native 29 fps progressive is pretty rare.

Talking about real interlaced 29 fps video; you need to take it to 59 to deinterlace without losing information. Half rate is an option if you want to use it.

A film in 720p59? I assume it was telecined and then double rate deinterlaced? Nasty and sounds hard to IVTC, the deinterlacing would mess that up.
The video is encoded as 720p/60 but if you frame step it's obvious that it's actually from a 720p/30 source. Nothing unusual about that if it's from a broadcast though, happens all the time.

[huhn]

The video is encoded as 720p/60 but if you frame step it's obvious that it's actually from a 720p/30 source. Nothing unusual about that if it's from a broadcast though, happens all the time.


the sample is true 59 fps the dup frame you see ware from the deint 59 = 120 look at the name it force deint on it.
the clip is totally right deinterlaced and should be treated as progressive.

[Asmodian]

The video is encoded as 720p/60 but if you frame step it's obvious that it's actually from a 720p/30 source. Nothing unusual about that if it's from a broadcast though, happens all the time.

the sample is true 59 fps the dup frame you see ware from the deint 59 = 120 look at the name it force deint on it.
the clip is totally right deinterlaced and should be treated as progressive.

Oh yeah, I did rename it. Deinterlacing was off and I stepped through single frames. The pan over the ceiling fan near the end was fairly convincing; no dup progressive 59.94 fps. I too suspect it is well deinterlaced 720i29.976.

[DragonQ]

the sample is true 59 fps the dup frame you see ware from the deint 59 = 120 look at the name it force deint on it.
the clip is totally right deinterlaced and should be treated as progressive.
Ah yes I forgot about file name tags.

[DragonQ]

Oh yeah, I did rename it. Deinterlacing was off and I stepped through single frames. The pan over the ceiling fan near the end was fairly convincing; no dup progressive 59.94 fps. I too suspect it is well deinterlaced 720i29.976.

720i isn't any kind of standard. If it's been deinterlaced it's been done from 1080i/30 almost certainly.

[Asmodian]

720i isn't any kind of standard. If it's been deinterlaced it's been done from 1080i/30 almost certainly.

Ah, true. I was only thinking about the frame type and rate. :o

[tp4tissue]

He uses nearest neighbor and calls it perfect scaling, he is beyond help. :)

Aliased?

That's irrelevant when you get 1:1 scaling.. from 1280x720 to 2560x1600(1440)

That is as much information as is in the file.. anything ONTOP of that is an approximation.:p

I wouldn't use NN for 19x10 to 25x16... but that's only because NN shimmers.

[huhn]

For some reason certain files exhibit a choppy playback but don't show dropped frames or decreasing queues. I'm thinking it's not a bug but should I post a report?

maybe a sample first?

[MokrySedeS]

Aliased?

That's irrelevant when you get 1:1 scaling.. from 1280x720 to 2560x1600(1440)

That is as much information as is in the file.. anything ONTOP of that is an approximation.:p

I wouldn't use NN for 19x10 to 25x16... but that's only because NN shimmers.

Here, a quick comparison: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/70195
That's @ 200% zoom of course.

[6233638]

I think tp4tissue's point is that 720p videos scaled to exactly 2x size on a 2560x1440 or 2560x1600 display using Nearest Neighbor, should look exactly the same as if you displayed that 720p video 1:1 mapped on a 720p native display.

Which - aside from the change in pixel density - is true.
(the increased pixel density means you will actually have a sharper image, and are able to resolve finer details)

But unless you are displaying content which more-or-less requires pixel-perfect accuracy to look good (video games or a lot of PC software) I don't know why you wouldn't take advantage of the display's additional resolution and upscale via madVR.

[Fullmetal Encoder]

I think tp4tissue's point is that 720p videos scaled to exactly 2x size on a 2560x1440 or 2560x1600 display using Nearest Neighbor, should look exactly the same as if you displayed that 720p video 1:1 mapped on a 720p native display.

Which - aside from the change in pixel density - is true.
(the increased pixel density means you will actually have a sharper image, and are able to resolve finer details)

But unless you are displaying content which more-or-less requires pixel-perfect accuracy to look good (video games or a lot of PC software) I don't know why you wouldn't take advantage of the display's additional resolution and upscale via madVR.

Yes but aren't you getting quite a bit of blurring/degradation of the image in scaling up to 2560, even from 1920x1080? I don't prefer NN myself but I've been avoiding going up to 2560x1440 so that I can maintain 1:1 mapping while avoiding that at decent screen sizes. Although I've never actually had an opportunity to play with it on a 2560 screen.

With 4k screens coming I shudder to think what scaling up DVD content would look like. At this rate everyone will need two different screens to enjoy all of their content properly.

[turbojet]

I don't know how you guys are seeing 59 fps from that 29i source (http://www.mediafire.com/download/wp5n1x3a7g5odat/29+deint%3Dvideo.mpg). It duplicates every frame which is unnecessary gpu load for madvr but that's how it currently works, would be nice for madvr to handle it better at some point.

Another case where madvr uses unnecessary gpu load is film in 59p. (http://www.mediafire.com/download/l3x0mz56u76t71q/film.59p.mpg)

Here's 2 cases, and the only cases where madvr should be outputting 59 fps: 59p (http://www.mediafire.com/download/9931no1rxqoue78/59p.mpg) and 59i. (http://www.mediafire.com/download/elqb18bi4h7p6px/59i.mpg)

[ryrynz]

I'd really like to see some more development put into NNEDI to attempt to improve it, I wonder the chances of it improving in future? Basically it sounds like someone needs to create an external Darby-like neural network upscaler.

I assume it wouldn't be cost effective to implement a good upscaler into normal devices, it's possible good quality lower res content upscaling won't get improved treatment with 4K devices at all.

I assume MadVR will be the best solution of a long time to come.

[nevcairiel]

I don't know how you guys are seeing 59 fps from that 29i source (http://www.mediafire.com/download/wp5n1x3a7g5odat/29+deint%3Dvideo.mpg). It duplicates every frame which is unnecessary gpu load for madvr but that's how it currently works, would be nice for madvr to handle it better at some point.

I can only repeat what various people have told you before:

29i is supposed to be output as 59p. (Note that many people mix 29i and 59i, but generally mean the same thing, 29 interlaced frames/59 fields per second, ie. what is typically broadcast in NTSC countries)
If its interlaced, it should be output with twice the "frame rate". Its as simple as that.

That sample however is NOT 29i, its 29p. You renamed it with a "deint=video" tag in the filename, which FORCES madVR to deinterlace the video. If you do that, its going to treat it like a normal interlaced file, which as a result does indeed duplicate all frames - but thats only because you forced it to do that, it wouldn't do that on its own.

Interlaced video does NOT contain frames, it contains fields. For technical reasons, two fields are packed into one "frame". So what you do when deinterlacing is first split these two fields again - so your 29 fps interlaced stream becomes 59 fields per second, and then every field is individually deinterlaced, which results in 59 frames per second. Thats how proper deinterlacing HAS to work. If a stream is interlaced, that is what will ALWAYS happen.

[turbojet]

You are right nevcairel I need to stop relying on playing within a wtv container, madvr deinterlaced that same source and duplicated frames, it also showed a resolution of 720x480 even though it's really 29p inside of 720p59.

Here's the type of source (http://www.mediafire.com/download/53xadbq1cpwgm87/29i.mpg) I'm talking about, madvr finds cadence and displays mostly correct now. I remember months, maybe a year or so now it wasn't and I had to enable half frame deinterlacing to display things like this correctly. Which is an improvement and seems only film in 59p is the only unnecessary performance hog.

[Asmodian]

That sample however is NOT 29i, its 29p. You renamed it with a "deint=video" tag in the filename, which FORCES madVR to deinterlace the video. If you do that, its going to treat it like a normal interlaced file, which as a result does indeed duplicate all frames - but thats only because you forced it to do that, it wouldn't do that on its own.

Actually that sample is 59p and the forced deint takes it to 120 with duplicates. Same effect though.

[tp4tissue]

Here, a quick comparison: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/70195
That's @ 200% zoom of course.

720p to 25x16 or 15x14 using NN is akin to LOSSLESS conversion

720p to 25x16 or 15x14 + jinc/lanz/xxxx is Lossless + obvious-POSTPROCESSING... you guys remember those Emulator filters, same concept.


Granted madvr does lots of stuff behind the scene even with NN that would constitute post-processing.

But I'm am merely conveying my preference for prioritizing True-To-Source.


Not saying everyone should follow suit, or that it's the-right-way..

I honestly don't know why few o'yall acting like I just ate your lunches from the community freezer. :rolleyes:



as with 19x10 to 25x16, well, I don't have a choice, my monitor is 25x16, I have to use the blur filters, or else everything looks blotchy (blotchy, not blocky)...

I like blocky if it's 1:1:)

[Asmodian]

Granted madvr does lots of stuff behind the scene even with NN that would constitute post-processing.

Any examples? If you have debanding off and are using NN, what else is there?

720p to 25x16 or 15x14 + jinc/lanz/xxxx is Lossless + obvious-POSTPROCESSING... you guys remember those Emulator filters, same concept.

You mean like adding scanlines etc. so make it look more like a CRT? I wouldn't put those in the same bag as a resize. A resize is trying to approximate what an "original" image would have looked like if it was at 2560x1440 while those Emulator filters are adding information that is not derived from the source at all.

I am not saying you should not use NN for yourself but trying to say a resize is the same as an effect filter is going too far.

If I take a 2560x1440 source, resize it to 720p, and then display it at 2560x1440 it looks more like the original using Jinc3 than NN. Jinc3 is a bit softer and NN has terrible aliasing.

With 4k screens coming I shudder to think what scaling up DVD content would look like. At this rate everyone will need two different screens to enjoy all of their content properly.

Why? What is worse about 480p/576p -> 2160p compared to 480p/576p -> 1080p?

Watching a DVD on a 70" screen I can understand some shudders but that is due to the size not the resolution, the extra resolution only helps.