madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) [Archive] - Page 81

pankov

8th August 2010, 11:54

Yes, I'm aware of the issue. Funny thing is that madVR behaves no different in both cases. So it seems that ZP behaves differently if you load the video in fullscreen mode. I'll try to fix that problem, but I'm not sure if I can. It's possible that Blight might have to change something. But don't contact him about that just yet. Let me first try to fix it in madVR.
OK. We are eagerly waiting for a fix.

If, however, you can't get clocks matched well enough, then probably Reclock's resampling still make sense for every movie.
How close is "well enough"? I tried to calculate how long it will take before we need to delay a frame if my display is at 23.9765 and the movie is 23.976 but I'm not sure when madVR will be forced to delay it ... is when we reach half the frame time or it will try to keep up till the moment it's not possible any more ... and what about 23.976@24.000? And this brings an old question - is better to use the real cinema refresh rate (24.000) or use the special 1001/1000 alteration.

As said before, if another window is covering madVR, there would probably be flickering, if I don't go out of exclusive mode.
... well I have two arguments that oppose your statement.
1. As I said before we have a prove (DVBViewer's exclusive mode) that there is way to be "on top" of everything and no other window can show up over the rendered picture. And there is absolutely no flickering in this case.
2. Personally if I have to live with any kind of flickering I'd prefer the flickering to be in a small part of the screen than the whole screen as that's the case when going out and into exclusive mode. Usually the offending windows are some notifications (mail, instant messengers, volume OSD (OS's not player's)) that pop up during playback and disappear quickly afterward. I think ... if possible at all ... it will be great if you can distinguish between player's windows and windows from other applications and wait ... let's say 5 seconds ... before madVR goes out of exclusive mode if the offending window is not from the player.

iSunrise

8th August 2010, 12:24

JFMI: Why do you use Powerstrip instead of defining custom timings? With nVidia at least you should be able to define a custom output mode which exactly matches your Powerstrip timings. Not sure if it's possible with ATI, though
Just FYI: There are also a lot of potential problems if you have to rely on the NVIDIA control panel. For some users and specific cases setting the timing manually might work, for others it doesn´t, for some driver revisions it works, for others it doesn´t, etc. It´s for these reasons that a lot of users are prefering Powerstrip, because it´s extremely reliable (if your graphics card is supported).

Like, in my case, the problem that i can´t get rid of is that after setting a custom timing, the NVIDIA control panel simply refuses to show the just configured timing (after I hit apply in the custom mode window) in the "Resolution" list, which means i cannot select it and "apply" it afterwards. It only shows the defaults, which are 59Hz or 60Hz, which is completely useless, since there already are PC modes with exactly those timings. Also, the NVIDIA control panel has some annoying bugs, e.g. on the "Adjust desktop size and position" tab, when switching to something lower than your native resolution, the NVIDIA driver panel just ignores what you just set it to and resets either to "Use NVIDIA scaling" or "Use my display´s built in scaling", instead of "Do not scale" (which is my prefered setting).

On the other hand, with PowerStrip, I can select every timing available for my display, ranging from 23.75-30.5 Hz to 47.5-61 Hz, I can set every resolution (non-native, unscaled) and it works perfectly and reliably in combination with madVR and every NVIDIA driver I have updated to in the last months.

With PowerStrip, you are completely independant of the provided drivers, when it comes to these adjustments, and with madVR, you are also completely independant of driver bugs, when it comes to image quality in videos/movies.

Hopefully, with coming madVR revisions, there is a way to read out the EDID data (DVI and HDMI) of the monitor and let madVR also have e.g. an "inf", where you can set your prefered timing according to the supplied "source fps". If this would be the case, madVR could also be completely independant of third party tools, but I´m just thinking out loud.

6233638

8th August 2010, 12:55

And this brings an old question - is better to use the real cinema refresh rate (24.000) or use the special 1001/1000 alteration.You are better to have reclock resample to 24.000, especially if you can upsample to 24/96 or higher.

I don't think it's possible to get 24/1.001 out of a PC video card. Even if you use the correct CEA timings you won't get it or 24.000000. (the timings are the same)

Just FYI: There are also a lot of potential problems if you have to rely on the NVIDIA control panel. For some users and specific cases setting the timing manually might work, for others it doesn´t, for some driver revisions it works, for others it doesn´t, etc. It´s for these reasons that a lot of users are prefering Powerstrip, because it´s extremely reliable (if your graphics card is supported).It worked perfectly in 186.86 and was broken for a while after that. The custom timings are now working correctly again, at least since the switch to 256.xx and up.

Like, in my case, the problem that i can´t get rid of is that after setting a custom timing, the NVIDIA control panel simply refuses to show the just configured timing (after I hit apply in the custom mode window) in the "Resolution" list, which means i cannot select it and "apply" it afterwards. It only shows the defaults, which are 59Hz or 60Hz, which is completely useless, since there already are PC modes with exactly those timings.I had this as well with my CRT in Windows 7. If you right click the desktop, go to change resolution, the advanced options and ‘list all modes’ you can select them. I don't know why this is. With my new TV on the same drivers I can select them from the Nvidia control panel no problem.

Out of interest, what kind of display are you using? I think it might be an issue with HDMI devices that are not 100% compliant.

iSunrise

8th August 2010, 13:25

It worked perfectly in 186.86 and was broken for a while after that. The custom timings are now working correctly again, at least since the switch to 256.xx and up.
Yes, I realized that since 256.xx some of the bugs are indeed fixed, that was one of the resons why I updated. But there´s always the uncertainty if that holds up for the next driver revisions.

I had this as well with my CRT in Windows 7. If you right click the desktop, go to change resolution, the advanced options and ‘list all modes’ you can select them. I don't know why this is. With my new TV on the same drivers I can select them from the Nvidia control panel no problem.

Out of interest, what kind of display are you using? I think it might be an issue with HDMI devices that are not 100% compliant.
You are a genius. It indeed works when doing it exactly like you suggested. Gonna need to test this further. I´m still not sure why it has to be this complicated. Thanks a lot for that, though!

EDIT: After further testing, the control panel won´t accept e.g. 29.970 or 23.976 ("Test failed. The mode "xxx" is not supported by your monitor."), even tough I can set both modes using PowerStrip.

Currently I´m using an EIZO CG243W, which is connected through the supplied DVI-D cable to an NVIDIA GTX 260´s first DVI-port. The NVIDIA control panel also shows up my monitor name correctly "EIZO CG243W", but I cannot get it to switch custom modes through the panel directly, no matter what I tried.

leeperry

8th August 2010, 13:41

I´m still not sure why it has to be this complicated.
you can also make a dummy monitor .inf using pstrip, build it stating the max rate is 200Hz and you can choose whatever you want, whenever you want(DisplayChanger batches are handy).

I was forced to do it as my CRT EDID said the max refresh rate was 85Hz: http://thumbnails24.imagebam.com/9214/1c70bd92135896.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/1c70bd92135896)

desert.katz

8th August 2010, 13:49

Hello, everyone!
Have some questions, mostly quality-based...
First of all, would like to report in about my DVD@madVR@win 7 experience. It's possible to watch DVDs if you install DScaler MPEG2 decoder+it's IVTC mod. As I was trying to open DVD, it (DScaler...) loaded up by accident (do not ask :D) alongside ffdshow and the DVDs are working flawlessly with madVR! :)

Also, seems to me that 0.25 has the smoothest playback of all renderers. Could that be because of the 'exclusive fullscreen mode'? The madVR's seek bar is not working for me though (I have MPC-HC's D3D mode turned on - may that be the reason?)

But here are my questions...
1) Will there be implemented native DVD (problems with DVD Navigator@win7 mentioned earlier in this thread) support in madVR? That would be great because then it would be possible to use just ffdshow. Cuz, I'm worried if 'DScaler+ffdshow' doesn't somehow degrade the quality, because there is one more color space conversion (I'm unable to configure DScaler MPEG2 decoder - it outputs YUY and then ffdshow has to convert it to YV12).

2) Do I need to turn on or off the 3dlut option? (I don't use/don't know how to use gamut/gamma correction - so do I need 3dlut?)

3) Can you somehow easily explain differences between the timing models? 'Normal' is the only one working for me. It works great, but the other two gives me a big video/audio asynchronization (video too late/too soon)

4) Can you recommend anything on quality purpose. What I mean, is, madVR is with no doubts the best renderer there is. But what about other stuff? Like, decoders - is there any difference between, for example, ffdshow and CoreAVC or mpc-hc implemented filters other than performance? Color space conversions, deblocking, IVTC, etc. And what about players? I really don't understand much about how the video is becoming from a file to a picture on my monitor, but I'm all about quality, so I'm asking for your help.

P.S. My config
MPC-HC x32 + ffdshow + madVR (always the newest builds) + temporarily (<--- I hope so) also DScaler with it's IVTC mod (avsforum)
Win7 Ultimate x64 Aero on
ATI 4650
CRT@60Hz
madVR - 3dlut on, exclusive fullscreen mode on, upload frames in render thread, show seek bar, timing model - normal, 8 backbuffers, don't flush anything, all resizing set to lanzcos8

Looks great on my oldschool CRT :)

iSunrise

8th August 2010, 13:51

you can also make a dummy monitor .inf using pstrip, build it stating the max rate is 200Hz and you can choose whatever you want, whenever you want(DisplayChanger batches are handy).

I was forced to do it as my CRT EDID said the max refresh rate was 85Hz: http://thumbnails24.imagebam.com/9214/1c70bd92135896.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/1c70bd92135896)
Already tried it, that´s how my pstrip created custom .inf looks:

http://thumbnails25.imagebam.com/9214/ef161492136787.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/ef161492136787)

But sadly, it didn´t really change the behaviour of the NVIDIA panel.

PS: Since I don´t want to derail this thread. If some of you have some further suggestions, could you send me a PM? That would be great. Thanks.

Mark_A_W

8th August 2010, 14:03

You are better to have reclock resample to 24.000, especially if you can upsample to 24/96 or higher.

I don't think it's possible to get 24/1.001 out of a PC video card. Even if you use the correct CEA timings you won't get it or 24.000000. (the timings are the same)

You are going to have to expand on this.

With Powerstrip there should be no problem getting 23.976hz, or a multiple thereof (I use 95.904hz).

TinTime

8th August 2010, 14:24

You are going to have to expand on this.

With Powerstrip there should be no problem getting 24.976hz, or a multiple thereof (I use 95.904hz).

Same with Nvidia custom timings too (when they work). Thankfully I don't seem to have to fiddle with them any more - the default 24Hz refresh rate with my TV is reported as 24.000 by Reclock.

6233638

8th August 2010, 14:44

Also, seems to me that 0.25 has the smoothest playback of all renderers. Could that be because of the 'exclusive fullscreen mode'? The madVR's seek bar is not working for me though (I have MPC-HC's D3D mode turned on - may that be the reason?)You need to turn off D3D or else madVR won't use Fullscreen Exclusive, it will be Fullscreen Windowed.

2) Do I need to turn on or off the 3dlut option? (I don't use/don't know how to use gamut/gamma correction - so do I need 3dlut?)Leave the 3DLUT off unless you have created a custom LUT with yCMS.

4) Can you recommend anything on quality purpose.

P.S. My config
all resizing set to lanzcos8
In my opinion, best quality is:
Luma upsampling: SoftCubic 50
Luma downsampling: Lanczos. I use 4, 8 is too slow. Not sure which is better.
Chroma upsampling: Bicubic 75

Lanczos only looks good for downsampling, it is horrible for upsampling. Lanczos 3 is best if you insist on using it to upsample. If you want one of the sharper upsamplers, I would use Spline32/64 instead.

SoftCubic50 looks best from my own testing though. It does not bring out compression artifacts like other upsampling does, and keeps aliasing to a minimum.
You are going to have to expand on this.

With Powerstrip there should be no problem getting 23.976hz, or a multiple thereof (I use 95.904hz).I can use the official timings to get "24/1.001", "24.000" or a multiple shown, but it does not measure exactly 24/1.001 or 24.000000 when you actually use it. (reclock or madVR's measurement, not seen a monitor that goes beyond two digits precision)

Here are the correct timings to use: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1318766#post1318766

Edit: I am not meaning that it is an issue for smooth playback, but I would not recommend disabling resampling in reclock and forcing it to run at the original sample rate because the clock will not be perfect. Don't use its v-sync correction, but let it resample the audio. (preferably upsampled too) Some bluray is 24.000 on the disc anyway, its not all 24/1.001. Resampling everything to the proper 24.000, especially if you have PAL content, makes more sense.

madshi

8th August 2010, 18:16

I have 8600m card on dell laptop. I'm able to select either 59 or 60 hz refresh rate in nvidia control panel.
When I use 60hz madvr produces a lot of dropped/delayed frames on videos with high framerate, but there are no drops/delays at 59 hz.
The osd shows around 59.75 hz at both settings. This is on any player with or without reclock. Any idea what could have caused this?
What is "a lot of"? How many drops per second or per minute?

Most content better fits to the 59 refresh rate. It's not really 59.000Hz, it's actually 60.000Hz / 1.001, which is about 59.940. It's just named "59" because the names usually don't use floating point and 59.940 is lower than 60.000.

Also, is there a need to use reclock with madvr if I don't do playback speed change in reclock?
Depends on how well your audio/video clocks are matched. Also Reclock does kernel streaming or WSAPI rendering. But these things are complicated topics and are not directly related to madVR. So they don't really belong into this thread.

madshi, for ~24fps on ~60Hz (fixed panel), I am still experiencing an issue where the video can look perfectly smooth, but if I seek and re-play the same part, it will be juddery (always a constant pattern) looking.

Is there be anything that I can do?
Yes, but not anytime soon.

I'm not sure when madVR will be forced to delay it ... is when we reach half the frame time or it will try to keep up till the moment it's not possible any more ...
What the current madVR version does is not what the "final" version will do. So it doesn't really help discussing that now.

... well I have two arguments that oppose your statement.
1. As I said before we have a prove (DVBViewer's exclusive mode) that there is way to be "on top" of everything and no other window can show up over the rendered picture. And there is absolutely no flickering in this case.
That doesn't oppose my statement at all. I said that if another window is covering madVR's rendering window, there would probably be flickering. If DVBViewer doesn't flicker, then likely there's no other window covering it. No contradiction to what I said at all.

2. Personally if I have to live with any kind of flickering I'd prefer the flickering to be in a small part of the screen than the whole screen
Oh, you prefer a constant never-going-away flickering in a small part of the screen over a full-screen flickering which is only visible for less than a second? That's weird...

1) Will there be implemented native DVD (problems with DVD Navigator@win7 mentioned earlier in this thread) support in madVR?
Probably yes, sooner or later...

3) Can you somehow easily explain differences between the timing models?
Simply use what works best for you.

madshi

8th August 2010, 18:21

madVR v0.26 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

* fixed: windows on primary monitor were seen as covering secondary playback
* fixed: when starting in fullscreen mode, madVR's seek bar didn't work
* fixed: starting ZoomPlayer in fullscreen exclusive mode made problems
* when "maximizing" the media player, exclusive mode is activated at once now
* exclusive mode switch is now done after 3 seconds instead of 1 second
* while exclusive mode is active, media player window is made topmost now
* windowed tweak "timing model" is now used for exclusive mode, too
* changed Aero timing mode once again
* added forced OSD display "windowed" vs. "exclusive" when switching
* new interface allows media players to ask whether madVR is in exclusive mode
Known problems:
(1) Loading the video file on primary monitor, then moving the window to the secondary monitor confuses the automatic fullscreen exclusive mode.

Requests:
(1) Please report if there are any problems left, especially with automatic fullscreen exclusive mode. If you do still have problems, please report your GPU, OS, monitor setup (1 or 2 screens, playback on primary/secondary etc) and media player.
(2) Does anybody absolutely need the "aero" or "high refresh rate" timing models? If nobody says yes, I'll remove them next week and always use the "normal" refresh rate.

LoRd_MuldeR

8th August 2010, 18:43

Known problems:
(1) Loading the video file on primary monitor, then moving the window to the secondary monitor confuses the automatic fullscreen exclusive mode.

Would be great, if this could be fixed. Because of this I can use "fullscreen exclusive mode" for testing, but not for daily use yet.

(2) Does anybody absolutely need the "aero" or "high refresh rate" timing models? If nobody says yes, I'll remove them next week and always use the "normal" refresh rate.

Yup. I have Aero enabled, so I use the "aero" setting. And it seems to work fine for me...

madshi

8th August 2010, 18:48

Would be great, if this could be fixed. Because of this I can use "fullscreen exclusive mode" for testing, but not for daily use yet.
It is on my to do list.

Yup. I have Aero enabled, so I use the "aero" setting. And it seems to work fine for me...
Ok, but do you actually *need* it? Could you please try if the "normal" timing model maybe works just as fine? I'd really like to get rid of the timing model option to make the settings dialog easier.

LoRd_MuldeR

8th August 2010, 18:52

Ok, but do you actually *need* it? Could you please try if the "normal" timing model maybe works just as fine? I'd really like to get rid of the timing model option to make the settings dialog easier.

Will do more testing. But wouldn't it be possible to detect Aero and use the Aero model automatically when Aero is on?

Or are there problems reported with Aero enabled + Aero model? (Didn't read the entire thread, it's just too long)

madshi

8th August 2010, 18:55

Or are there problems reported with Aero enabled + Aero model?
Yes, many people prefer using the "normal" timing model even for Aero rendering. From what I've seen, only very few people seem to use the "aero" timing model.

pankov

8th August 2010, 18:58

I'm confused. madVR has always had the file version resource set properly!
I'm really sorry for having doubt in you ;)
I just saw that the problem is only in Windows 7 - it doesn't show file version for .ax files !?!? What are they thinking in Microsoft? Why do they have to break such simple things that work perfectly well in XP :(

What the current madVR version does is not what the "final" version will do. So it doesn't really help discussing that now.
OK can you just tell us if 0.001Hz or less of deviation from 23.976 will be OK so I don't have dropped/delayed frame in 2-3 hours movie?

That doesn't oppose my statement at all. I said that if another window is covering madVR's rendering window, there would probably be flickering. If DVBViewer doesn't flicker, then likely there's no other window covering it. No contradiction to what I said at all.OK, I see your point ... I guess. You say that the reason why there is no flickering with DVBViewer is because it's preventing other windows to go over it's rendered picture, right? Because my experience shows that there absolutely NO way to show any window over DVBViewer unlike the current madVR implementation with which any windows can cover madVR and produce flickering. Did I get it right now?

Oh, you prefer a constant never-going-away flickering in a small part of the screen over a full-screen flickering which is only visible for less than a second? That's weird...No, that's far from what I'm saying. If suppose it's not possible to prevent other windows to go on top of madVR in case of a temporary pop up window I'd prefer to have a small flickering for up to 5 seconds (an exemplary timeout I mentioned in my previous post) than a whole screen blinking in both transitions out of exclusive and back to exclusive if the other window disappeared. And after that time if the window didn't disappear and is still trying to be visible madVR should go out of exclusive mode. If it disappeared then everything should continue as it was - just with a small glitch.

madshi

8th August 2010, 19:08

OK can you just tell us if 0.001ms or less of deviation from 23.976 will be OK so I don't have dropped/delayed frame in 2-3 hours movie?
I don't know which requirements the "final" madVR version will have to not drop/delay any frames.

Because my experience shows that there absolutely NO way to show any window over DVBViewer unlike the current madVR implementation with which any windows can cover madVR and produce flickering. Did I get it right now?
More or less.

ZoomPlayer's main window is not "topmost", while MPC HC's main window is, when they go (windowed) fullscreen. Maybe that's why you've seen many windows covering ZP. But that's not really madVR's fault. Anyway, madVR v0.26 now hacks the media player to be "topmost", as long as exclusive mode is active. That may improve the situation for you.

If suppose it's not possible to prevent other windows to go on top of madVR in case of a temporary pop up window I'd prefer to have a small flickering for up to 5 seconds (an exemplary timeout I mentioned in my previous post) than a whole screen blinking in both transitions out of exclusive and back to exclusive if the other window disappeared. And after that time if the window didn't disappear and is still trying to be visible madVR should go out of exclusive mode. If it disappeared then everything should continue as it was - just with a small glitch.
Sorry, but no, I will not implement such a thing.

nijiko

8th August 2010, 19:29

When will release a decreasing window version? ......
Is it possible? ......

madshi

8th August 2010, 19:31

When will release a decreasing window version? ......
Huh? What do you mean?

iSunrise

8th August 2010, 19:38

Thanks for 0.26 madshi.

Hm, I just installed it, but apparently I cannot get it to work. PotPlayer and MPC-HC won´t connect to madVR and fallback to Overlay. Anyone else?

EDIT: Sorry, I didn´t realize that madHcNet.dll is already needed for madVR to work, my fault.

desert.katz

8th August 2010, 19:44

To 6233638

Well, actually yes, lanzcos8 causes a lot of 'artifact show-up' and it looks terrible... on HDTVs. But on my 17'' CRT those artifacts somehow get masked out... But the sharpness is astonishing! :) Makes my SDs (DVDs, XviDs, etc.) look great. Also, rendering times haven't been problem for me. I guess, even the 4650 GPU is fast enough.

To madshi

May be a double-post, but for me the normal timing works flawlessly. The other two gives asynchronization, so always have to sort of re-seek the video to make the audio and video lock-in with each other, to say (I suppose, keyframes or whatsoever)... But normal timing always gives great sync.

Also, again reporting about the DScaler DVD thing. I always used D3D fullscreen, but today I turned it off, as adviced by 6233638 - and DVDs stopped working. So, also this D3D thing has something to do in this particular madVR DVD mod, to say. :D Just thought, this might be helpful.
Edit: Suppose, misunderstood the idea... Most likely, the madVR's exclusive mode just kicks in and is incompatible with DVD.

pankov

8th August 2010, 19:44

I don't know which requirements the "final" madVR version will have to not drop/delay any frames.
If I'm not asking too much can you share what's the current situation - I'm asking just to know if I can skip Reclock's resampling.

ZoomPlayer's main window is not "topmost", while MPC HC's main window is, when they go (windowed) fullscreen. Maybe that's why you've seen many windows covering ZP. But that's not really madVR's fault. Anyway, madVR v0.26 now hacks the media player to be "topmost", as long as exclusive mode is active. That may improve the situation for you.Sadly nothing changes with v0.26 - all popup windows still force madVR to go out of exclusive mode. But I think if Blight (the author of ZoomPlayer) implements "Always on top" in ZP's fullscreen mode this might fix it, right?

Sorry, but no, I will not implement such a thing.
:( I'm really sorry. I can't believe that I'm the only one that leaves it's e-mail client and/or Skype/ICQ client active and their pop up notifications interfere ... but if you are firm on this I'll stop bothering you and probably go back to two monitor configuration now that we have exclusive mode and hopefully won't have problems with different refresh rates and still keeping Aero enabled. I'll test that and report later.

For the moment I can confirm that starting playback directly in fulscreen mode in ZoomPlayer is fixed.
madshi, thank you very much!!!

My other two issues with ZoomPlayer (the one with the initial showing of seek/control bar with keyboard shortcut and the one with right click popup menu) are still present :(
madshi, if you need any more information about them just say and I'll post a step-by-step guide how to reproduce them.

madshi,
I see that you've change the fullscreen exclusive timing model but sadly for me it still doesn't work as good as the windowed mode. My exclusive rendering times are still a few (4-8) times higher than windowed times ... and I think they are dependent on the current monitor refresh rate. For example for the exact same movie in windowed mode I have 4-5ms while in exclusive 50Hz (20ms vsynch interval) I get ~19.5ms rendering and in exclusive 24Hz (41ms vsynch interval) I get ~39-40ms rendering.

Can somebody else confirm such behavior?

and a final question/request
madshi, I see you've implemented an interface for the player to check the seek bar status, which is great but would you also consider an option to allow the player to tell madVR to also show it? This way the player won't have to show it's and make madVR go out of exclusive mode ... and if you include the current and total movie time ... it will be totally awesome.

btw
I think I've just found a small/unimportant bug with madVR's seekbar - if I show the bar in exclusive mode and then go to windowed mode (either by going to playback in a window or show another window on top and force madVR in windowed fullscreen mode) the bar stays permanently visible.

------
my current config:
ATI HD5750, CCC10.4, Win7 32bit, Aero ON, currently Single monitor (1920x1080) at 24.000/50.000/59.970Hz
ZoomPlayer using Haali Media or Gabest MPEG Splitter + CoreAVC/Windows DTV-DVD Video Decoder + madVR (Auto fullscreen exclusive mode)
3DLUT OFF|Spline64|Spline64|SoftCubic80
flush|flush and wait(sleep)|don't|don't
------

Octo-puss

8th August 2010, 19:57

Huh? What do you mean?

Translation: I come from 1st grade and just discovered the internets.
:P

madshi

8th August 2010, 20:06

If I'm not asking too much can you share what's the current situation
Can't say from the top of my head.

Sadly nothing changes with v0.26 - all popup windows still force madVR to go out of exclusive mode. But I think if Blight (the author of ZoomPlayer) implements "Always on top" in ZP's fullscreen mode this might fix it, right?
v0.26 should already have hacked ZP to do "always on top", so I don't think it would change much.

I can't believe that I'm the only one that leaves it's e-mail client and/or Skype/ICQ client active and their pop up notifications interfere ...
I think it's weird having the email/skype notifications on the same monitor as your HTPC playback. But maybe that's just me. Maybe there's a way to stop such notifications to cover the media player. But I will definitely not add black/white lists for covering windows, or ignore covering windows completely or for a specific time.

My other two issues with ZoomPlayer (the one with the initial showing of seek/control bar with keyboard shortcut and the one with right click popup menu) are still present :(
madshi, if you need any more information about them just say and I'll post a step-by-step guide how to reproduce them.
I can't reproduce either of them. A step-by-step guide would be helpful. Of course only if it really helps me reproduce the problem.

I see that you've change the fullscreen exclusive timing model but sadly for me it still doesn't work as good as the windowed mode. My exclusive rendering times
Is your "not as good as" based only on the rendering times? Or on dropped/delayed frames? Or on motion smoothness?

madshi, I see you've implemented an interface for the player to check the seek bar status, which is great but would you also consider an option to allow the player to tell madVR to also show it? This way the player won't have to show it's and make madVR go out of exclusive mode ...
Sorry, but no. The media player can ask if madVR is in exclusive mode and if the madVR seek bar is enabled. If that is the case, the media player should not show its own seek bar. I don't see any need for the media player to be able to invoke the madVR seek bar.

if I show the bar in exclusive mode and then go to windowed mode (either by going to playback in a window or show another window on top and force madVR in windowed fullscreen mode) the bar stays permanently visible.
Confirmed. Will be fixed in the next build.

leeperry

8th August 2010, 20:06

:thanks: for the new version, I will let PotPlayer's coder know about the new interfaces.
@Jong, do you hear that? :p
I've told him, together w/ some other friends...but at this point they all crave for subs support, and tbh they like to stare at all those lines in MPC/EVR CP, it makes them feel gooood :D
I just saw that the problem is only in Windows 7 - it doesn't show file version for .ax files !?!? What are they thinking in Microsoft? Why do they have to break such simple things that work perfectly well in XP :(
That's exactly how their newer OS feel to me, like why no more classic start menu in W7? why the enforcement of ClearType fonts(that look uber-blurry on non-LCD displays)? because we've been naughty? :devil:

I hate it when big companies know what end-users need more than they do themselves. One of the basic rules of business is that "the buyer has all the control", be it then.

nlnl

8th August 2010, 20:14

madshi
Thanks for 0.26!

Switching FS EX --> FS Wind is very fast for my config!

Rendering time is still high in FS Exl mode for my config (W7, Aero on, single, AMD 5400, 10.7) playing 1080p23 at 1080/23
Normal timing: FS Ex 22 ms/ FS Wind 9
Aero timing: FS Ex 30 ms/ FS Wind 9
HRR timing: FS Ex 22 ms/ FS Wind 9

madshi

8th August 2010, 20:27

Those of you with high rendering times in exclusive mode, can you try setting *all* flush settings to "flush & wait (loop)"? Does that change anything?

nlnl

8th August 2010, 20:43

Those of you with high rendering times in exclusive mode, can you try setting *all* flush settings to "flush & wait (loop)"? Does that change anything?

Normal timing: FS Ex 22 ms/ FS Wind 8.5

Does not change anything :(.

noee

8th August 2010, 20:50

* fixed: windows on primary monitor were seen as covering secondary playback

Yes, this looks good now. However, one thing that I'm not sure you can control or not. When I hover over the tray icons for FFdshow and it pops up an info balloon, I get the switch back to windowed, then back to fx-mode. Also, when I right click the HMS icon to select a chapter, I get the switch to windowed and then back. This is with playback on Secondary.

FYI, Aero mode does not stutter and skip now, but the OSD shows the composition rate at 30.0000Hz while my refresh rate (secondary) is 24Hz (primary is 60Hz). I'm starting the movie on the secondary.

HD2600XT, CCC10.3, Win7 x64, Aero OFF, dual-mon (primary 60Hz, sec 24Hz, both 1920x1080)
HMS/FFDshow/Reclock/madVR (Auto fullscreen x-mode)/MPC-HC
3Dlut OFF|Spline64|Spline64|Bicubic75
flush|flush and wait(sleep)|don't|don't

madshi

8th August 2010, 20:58

When I hover over the tray icons for FFdshow and it pops up an info balloon, I get the switch back to windowed, then back to fx-mode. Also, when I right click the HMS icon to select a chapter, I get the switch to windowed and then back. This is with playback on Secondary.
Doesn't happen on my XPSP3 dev machine. Does that info balloon partially cover the secondary screen? Or is it strictly limited to the primary screen?

noee

8th August 2010, 21:03

Visually, it appears to stop at the edge. However, I have 4 tray icons lined up: Reclock, HMS, FFD audio, FFDVideo. The Reclock balloon is the only one that does not trigger the switch and there is obvious space between the right edge of the balloon and the edge of the "screen". With the other three, their right edge appears to line up right on the edge of the "screen". Behaves the same way with Aero on or off.

pankov

8th August 2010, 21:08

noee, madshi,
I've just tried this ffdshow menu balloon problem with ffdshow's audio decoder icon and I'm not experiencing it - everything is working fine here (ffdshow 3477)

djsolidsnake86

8th August 2010, 21:14

the forced osd can be removed please? or a option for remove it?

ExtraEye

8th August 2010, 21:57

From the versions I've tried till now I can say, 0.22 works best on my machine for now.

madshi

8th August 2010, 22:04

Visually, it appears to stop at the edge.
Maybe the shadow of the balloon is going over to the secondary monitor? Don't really know, just guessing here...

the forced osd can be removed please? or a option for remove it?
I plan to add an option to turn it off, but only after I've rewritten the whole settings stuff. Maybe I'll also completely remove it. For now it's there to make testing the automatic switching easier.

From the versions I've tried till now I can say, 0.22 works best on my machine for now.
In what way does 0.22 work better for you than 0.26? FWIW, if you switch off the automatic fullscreen exclusive mode, 0.26 should behave pretty much identical to 0.22.

LoRd_MuldeR

8th August 2010, 22:07

I plan to add an option to turn it off, but only after I've rewritten the whole settings stuff. Maybe I'll also completely remove it. For now it's there to make testing the automatic switching easier.

Please not remove it, I like it that way. Maybe make it (yet another) option.

BTW: Is there any chance the "Macrovision failed" is fixed? Not being able to watch my DVD's with MadVR is a pity. If any update on that issue was posted, I missed it...

6233638

8th August 2010, 22:10

(1) Please report if there are any problems left, especially with automatic fullscreen exclusive mode. If you do still have problems, please report your GPU, OS, monitor setup (1 or 2 screens, playback on primary/secondary etc) and media player.Switching between fullscreen/windowed is still slow here, and shows a frame of what was last displayed in windowed mode as it switches.

Not a fan of the windowed/exclusive pop-up in the top-left. I know which mode I'm in because the screen flickers between them and the progress bars differ.

(2) Does anybody absolutely need the "aero" or "high refresh rate" timing models? If nobody says yes, I'll remove them next week and always use the "normal" refresh rate.When I went to 0.25 I reset my config file and Normal seems to be working fine in fullscreen exclusive. High refresh worked better in windowed for me, but I use settings that only play smoothly in exclusive now, so it is not an issue.

Well, actually yes, lanzcos8 causes a lot of 'artifact show-up' and it looks terrible... on HDTVs. But on my 17'' CRT those artifacts somehow get masked out... But the sharpness is astonishing! :) Makes my SDs (DVDs, XviDs, etc.) look great. Also, rendering times haven't been problem for me. I guess, even the 4650 GPU is fast enough.On a CRT you should be outputting content at its native resolution and disabling aspect ratio correction in your media player. (DVD is automatically scaled to either 4:3 or 16:9 from 720x480/576 which is neither) Lanczos still looks terrible on my CRTs.

OK can you just tell us if 0.001Hz or less of deviation from 23.976 will be OK so I don't have dropped/delayed frame in 2-3 hours movie?Use reclock with v-sync correction disabled. I would recommend upsampling audio when doing this if possible.

I can't believe that I'm the only one that leaves it's e-mail client and/or Skype/ICQ client active and their pop up notifications interfere ... but if you are firm on this I'll stop bothering you and probably go back to two monitor configuration now that we have exclusive mode and hopefully won't have problems with different refresh rates and still keeping Aero enabled. I'll test that and report later.I don’t see any reason to leave such distractions open when watching a film, nor do I let such programs use pop-ups anyway.

I see that you've change the fullscreen exclusive timing model but sadly for me it still doesn't work as good as the windowed mode. My exclusive rendering times are still a few (4-8) times higher than windowed times ... and I think they are dependent on the current monitor refresh rate. For example for the exact same movie in windowed mode I have 4-5ms while in exclusive 50Hz (20ms vsynch interval) I get ~19.5ms rendering and in exclusive 24Hz (41ms vsynch interval) I get ~39-40ms rendering.My rendering times in exclusive were much worse than windowed in 0.25 but I assumed the stats were wrong because I can use everything but Lanczos 8 now, when I was limited to Bicubic 75 before.

Those of you with high rendering times in exclusive mode, can you try setting *all* flush settings to "flush & wait (loop)"? Does that change anything?Performance is significantly worse. Stats go from 38/0.01 average, 41/0.02 max to 36/3.2 average, 66-360/10-328 max. Playback is no longer smooth. This is from flush, sleep, flush, dont.
Why the enforcement of ClearType fonts(that look uber-blurry on non-LCD displays)? because we've been naughty? :devil:You can disable cleartype in 7, using either the terrible old style of font smoothing, or disabling it altogether. Some of the new on-screen fonts used in 7 have sub-pixel rendering built-in though. You will have to change them to get rid of it entirely.

pankov

8th August 2010, 22:11

v0.26 should already have hacked ZP to do "always on top", so I don't think it would change much.
OK. So I suppose DVBViewer developers found another special way to be really "always on top" :(

I think it's weird having the email/skype notifications on the same monitor as your HTPC playback. But maybe that's just me. Maybe there's a way to stop such notifications to cover the media player. But I will definitely not add black/white lists for covering windows, or ignore covering windows completely or for a specific time.

Initially I was using two monitors and didn't have such problems but since my video card upgrade I had to change my configuration and use only one active display at a time - simply switching between LCD monitor and projector. But I'm not sure everybody has the "luxury" of having two monitors connected ... in fact I think there are many HTPC users that have only one monitor and I believe some of them are actually using their HTPC for chat/mail also so I think many will have this problem but I guess the best solution is to have a real/absolute "always on top" mode so nothing can interfere with the playback - only player's OSD can show over madVR ... but if it's just me I'll manage with what we currently have as my initial test with exclusive mode and two monitors seems to be very successful
:thanks: again for your great work and the exclusive mode.
I think I'll be going back to full time two monitor config.

I can't reproduce either of them. A step-by-step guide would be helpful. Of course only if it really helps me reproduce the problem.
madshi, if you apply the ZP settings file that I sent you before and start ZP in fullscreen mode on your primary monitor (zplayer.exe /z:1) and start a movie in fullscreen exclusive mode and then press "Space bar" key the seek/control bar will try to show on the top and will force madVR out of exclusive mode. It will be briefly visible and then it's gone even though I've reconfigured ZP to leave it visible for 10 seconds in Fullscreen/Zoom mode (it was only 2 seconds before and I thought this was the reason but sadly it wasn't).
And to be even more strange this only happens the first time after I start a movie.

Edit:
I think I found the reason why the control bar disappears - it's the mouse movement to the center of the screen that I told you before. I've configured ZP to "Auto-Hide the Control Bar instantly when the mouse cursor is moved away from the Control Bar" (Options -> Interface -> Control Bar). If disable this option the Control Bar stays visible every time I show it.

And now to the right click popup menu problem:
Again with the ZP config that I sent you.
Again start ZP in fullscreen mode on primary monitor and start playback in exclusive mode. Now if you right click in the top right corner for example the screen will go blank for a moment and the menu will get drawn in the top right corner but the mouse cursor will be in the exact center of the screen and the menu will quickly disappear. I have to quickly right click a second time while in windowed mode to have the menu actually stay on screen.
I've recorded a short video showing the problem.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ap8g55qnrhd29dg

Is your "not as good as" based only on the rendering times? Or on dropped/delayed frames? Or on motion smoothness?
Only on rendering times. Everything is butter smooth ... I'm just worried that I won't have enough headroom for future madVR processing. Btw I've tried your suggestion and set everything to "flush and wait(loop)" but nothing changed.
Here is a log the shows this behavior
http://www.mediafire.com/?5rutknwbqo2h9ai

Sorry, but no. The media player can ask if madVR is in exclusive mode and if the madVR seek bar is enabled. If that is the case, the media player should not show its own seek bar. I don't see any need for the media player to be able to invoke the madVR seek bar.
For me, a ZoomPlayer user, the need is very obvious - we lack any exclusive mode OSD so if you add this and having the current interface to show text (btw is possible to add the option of showing it at a given coordinates?) you'll have covered 90% of the simple OSD used in ZP and I think Blight won't have to do much work to convert current OSD in madVR OSD commands. Well the "Navigation/Library" system will still have to be Delphi windows and force madVR out of exclusive mode but this is OK because it's not really used during playback - after all it's purpose is to only start the playback.

Mangix

8th August 2010, 22:14

bug: backbuffer is set to 1 and in windowed mode it holds true. but in exclusive mode, it goes to 3 and subsequently increases rendering times.

6233638

8th August 2010, 22:22

Now if you right click in the top right corner for example the screen will go blank for a moment and the menu will get drawn in the top right corner but the mouse cursor will be in the exact center of the screen and the menu will quickly disappear. I have to quickly right click a second time while in windowed mode to have the menu actually stay on screen.Do you have the option to automatically have your mouse cursor jump to a dialog box enabled in your mouse drivers? Perhaps this is the cause.

pankov

8th August 2010, 22:24

Off Topic:
That's exactly how their newer OS feel to me, like why no more classic start menu in W7? why the enforcement of ClearType fonts(that look uber-blurry on non-LCD displays)? because we've been naughty?

I hate it when big companies know what end-users need more than they do themselves. One of the basic rules of business is that "the buyer has all the control", be it then.

leeperry,
if you miss the classic start menu and some other "classic" Win XP stuff you should definitely try this
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/
I use it since I installed Windows 7 more than six months ago and I'm very pleased
:)

LloydA

8th August 2010, 22:42

Those of you with high rendering times in exclusive mode, can you try setting *all* flush settings to "flush & wait (loop)"? Does that change anything?

Ever since 0.17, setting all to "flush & wait (loop)" introduced slightly heavier stuttering (i.e. horizontal pans have small but continuous jerkiness), but overall the motion was much more pleasing/less annoying to my eyes than the default settings which are slightly smoother but exhibit that weird smooth/drag effect.

For my taste I prefer continuous "imperfect" motion to smoother motion that gets interrupted every 20-30 frames by that drag effect (it's as if the frame buffer flushing catches up very fast or something).

FWIW, re: RGB settings on ATI GPUs, I went back from a 5450 to 4650, everything else unchanged (W7 x64, CCC 10.7), and lo and behold: changing the pixel format from Full to Limited does indeed produce the expected desktop image on the same plasma tv with the 4650, while on the 5450 changing that setting had no effect other than the GPU re-initializing/blanking the screen for a brief second.

pankov

8th August 2010, 22:42

Use reclock with v-sync correction disabled. I would recommend upsampling audio when doing this if possible.
That's exactly what I'm using now but I wanted to know if in the future when I upgrade my AV receiver to support DD TrueHD and DTS-MA I'll be able to bitstream the audio and still get perfect video without drops in the audio.

I don’t see any reason to leave such distractions open when watching a film, nor do I let such programs use pop-ups anyway.
Is "lazy" a good enough reason ;)
I hate it when I have to close applications to make other work better - I just want to stand up from my desk and watch a movie - with just a couple of button presses on my Harmony remote.

You can disable cleartype in 7, using either the terrible old style of font smoothing, or disabling it altogether. Some of the new on-screen fonts used in 7 have sub-pixel rendering built-in though. You will have to change them to get rid of it entirely.
Sadly you can get rid of it totally without making some things very ugly (like the calendar gadget) but it get's close enough.

Do you have the option to automatically have your mouse cursor jump to a dialog box enabled in your mouse drivers? Perhaps this is the cause.None that I know of but I'll investigate more since Logitech has the tendency to do things behind our backs.

6233638

8th August 2010, 23:09

That's exactly what I'm using now but I wanted to know if in the future when I upgrade my AV receiver to support DD TrueHD and DTS-MA I'll be able to bitstream the audio and still get perfect video without drops in the audio.No reason to bitstream. TrueHD/DTSHD = LPCM.

If you bitstream instead of upsampling with reclock, audio is going to sound worse, not better. Especially if your clocks are not perfect. No way around it.

madshi

8th August 2010, 23:10

Please not remove it, I like it that way. Maybe make it (yet another) option.
I like it, too.

Is there any chance the "Macrovision failed" is fixed?
Not yet. One of many things on my to do list...

Switching between fullscreen/windowed is still slow here, and shows a frame of what was last displayed in windowed mode as it switches.
Can't do anything against the slowness. And I'm not sure if I can do anything about the "old frame" being shown.

Not a fan of the windowed/exclusive pop-up in the top-left. I know which mode I'm in because the screen flickers between them and the progress bars differ.
Yeah, well, some like it, some don't. Guess I'll have to add an option for that in a future version.

Edit:
I think I found the reason why the control bar disappears - it's the mouse movement to the center of the screen that I told you before. I've configured ZP to "Auto-Hide the Control Bar instantly when the mouse cursor is moved away from the Control Bar" (Options -> Interface -> Control Bar). If disable this option the Control Bar stays visible every time I show it.
Ok, so I can ignore that effect, right?

And now to the right click popup menu problem:
Again with the ZP config that I sent you.
Again start ZP in fullscreen mode on primary monitor and start playback in exclusive mode. Now if you right click in the top right corner for example the screen will go blank for a moment and the menu will get drawn in the top right corner but the mouse cursor will be in the exact center of the screen and the menu will quickly disappear. I have to quickly right click a second time while in windowed mode to have the menu actually stay on screen.
I've recorded a short video showing the problem.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ap8g55qnrhd29dg
Huh? That is a video, but it doesn't show anything related to madVR.

The problem doesn't happen on my XPSP3 PC. May have to try on my win7 HTPC.

Only on rendering times. Everything is butter smooth ... I'm just worried that I won't have enough headroom for future madVR processing.
You're putting way too much stock into the rendering stats. Just ignore them and be happy with smooth motion.

For me, a ZoomPlayer user, the need is very obvious - we lack any exclusive mode OSD
It's really hard to discuss with you. What should be clarified in one post needs 3 posts with you. That's eating a lot of my time.

I still have no clue at all about *why* the heck you want me to extend the madVR interface. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. And I have lost all fun to ask you about it another time and again another time. Do you have any idea how much time I'm wasting on discussions like this? If you are not able to properly explain the exact use and purpose of your feature request, then better don't request it at all.

Look: You need a seek bar for exclusive mode in ZP. Yes, I know that. But you already HAVE GOT a seek bar for exclusive mode in ZP with madVR v0.26!!! Just move the mouse to the bottom of the screen and you get your exclusive mode seek bar! So why the heck do you need me to add more interfaces to madVR??? Do you now understand why I don't see the sense in your feature request? And do you now see how frustrating it is for me to discuss with you, because I have to write one reply after another to get you to explain your request in such a way that I can understand the purpose of your request!!!

bug: backbuffer is set to 1 and in windowed mode it holds true. but in exclusive mode, it goes to 3 and subsequently increases rendering times.
That's not really a bug. Exclusive mode needs more than 1 backbuffer to be fully effective. Because of that I've forced backbuffers to be always 3 in exclusive mode.