madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Oguignant]

NO! THERE IS NEVER A REASON TO DISABLE madVR's DITHERING. :mad:

That means when you send the display a 10-bit signal it won't display it by dithering on an 8-bit panel.

Example: a pixel value is 513 in 10-bit (edit: 128.25 in 8-bit) so a fake dithering 10-bit panel sets the pixel to 128 (8-bit) 75% of the time and 129 25% of the time.

Okay, do not lose your temper! It was just a question

[Asmodian]

Okay, do not lose your temper! It was just a question

Haha, people keep asking if dithering should be disabled even after we repeatedly tell them there is never a reason to disable dithering. Apparently we need to be quite firm. ;)

But I know, it is just a question, and please keep asking them! :)

[Oguignant]

Haha, people keep asking if dithering should be disabled even after we repeatedly tell them there is never a reason to disable dithering. Apparently we need to be quite firm. ;)

But I know, it is just a question, and please keep asking them! :)


Jaja I did know. But you can not deny that the information I read from LG raised the question. :)

[ryrynz]

Could some of you guys please stop quoting entire posts when replying? It's easy to just cut the bits you need. Half the damn feed is quoted stuff nobody is reading. There's more quote in the post than reply half the time.

[Asmodian]

I do try to do that but I am on mobile now and am being a bit lazy. :o

[Oguignant]

I know that this topic does not belong to this forum, but I ask the same. Does anyone have the color scale (Or whatever their name is) to calibrate the tv to bt.2020? Or some page from where to download it?

[huhn]

without a colorimter and the knowhow you can't calibrated what so ever.

if you think there is a screen with real bt 2020 you are missing the knowhow.

[Asmodian]

I know that this topic does not belong to this forum, but I ask the same. Does anyone have the color scale (Or whatever their name is) to calibrate the tv to bt.2020? Or some page from where to download it?

I assume you mean the BT.2020 gamma curve? That cannot be done correctly without a meter either but on an OLED, with their very low black levels, BT.2020 is basically pure power 2.4. BT.2020 is a theoretical color space that would require new (magic?) laser technology to actually implement as a display.

After owning several meters and comparing to test pattern calibration methods I have come to the conclusion that a spectrometer is necessary to actually get a decent calibration. This is especially true with novel or new display technologies. Colorimeters don't work very well with every display having different LED backlights, even OLEDs aren't identical model to model. Test patterns are basically useless, or worse, in my experience, unless the display is completely wrong. Test patterns can only optimize one aspect at a time so you end up making three things worse to improve one aspect a bit. :p

Your TV is close to the DCI-P3 primaries, so if you want to look for a test pattern for that you might be able to do something good but you could also make it worse then the default factory calibration.

[Oguignant]

I assume you mean the BT.2020 gamma curve? That cannot be done correctly without a meter either but on an OLED, with their very low black levels, BT.2020 is basically pure power 2.4. BT.2020 is a theoretical color space that would require new (magic?) laser technology to actually implement as a display.

Your TV is close to the DCI-P3 primaries, so if you want to look for a test pattern for that you might be able to do something good but you could also make it worse then the default factory calibration.

colors the TV oled can display: Dci-p3 90% and bt.2020 70%

Test pattern I use I expressed wrong. I use the test pattern to see if it is calibrated correctly. A colorimetro or spectrometer is very difficult to obtain in my country, and to buy it would cost a fortune!

So, basically you recommend use factory precalibration and just change gamma 2.4 on tv and bt.2020/pure curve 2.4 in madvr configuration?

Asmodian: Today you have answered all my questions They're going to think you work for me or something. Je :) thks!

[Asmodian]

So, basically you recommend use factory precalibration and just change gamma 2.4 on tv and bt.2020/pure curve 2.4 in madvr configuration?

Exactly, even gamma test patterns, which work the best, tend to only approximately match meter results. None can tell you with any accuracy how good a calibration is.

Glad to help, and I hope it helps others as well. :)

Edit: wait, don't set madVR to BT.2020 gamut, you only have 90% of DCI-P3, set DCI-P3 for gamut (or BT.709 with the TV set to standard gamut). 70% of a color space is not enough to consider it supported, even 90% isn't ideal.

[Oguignant]

Glad to help, and I hope it helps others as well. :)

You're right, with gamma 2.4 looks really great. The problem (happy problem) with gamma 2.2 is also excellent. Both, hdr and 8 or 10 bit movies. To be honest, I'm surprised with the quality of the oled tv. I lost my time buying led tv.

[Oguignant]

Edit: wait, don't set madVR to BT.2020 gamut, you only have 90% of DCI-P3, set DCI-P3 for gamut (or BT.709 with the TV set to standard gamut). 70% of a color space is not enough to consider it supported, even 90% isn't ideal.

@Asmodian, I did some tests. I keep gamma 2.4. looks great. In calibration leave bt.709 and pure power curve 2.4. I also have to activate Enable gamma processing in pure power curve 2.4?

On the TV only modify gamma to 2.4, I did not have to make any changes in the calibration of colors, brightness and contrast (is it normal?)
DCI-P3 and bt.2020 (not much difference between one and another) looks incredible with Hdr, but with bt.709 content not so much. Even after activating Wide Color Gamut. Madvr does an excellent job!

[Sunspark]

FYI, I just noticed that LAV Filters 0.69 has been released.

LAV Video

NEW: Support for 10-bit UtVideo
NEW: MagicYUV decoding support
NEW: Experimental support for CineformHD decoding
Fixed: Converting 12-bit 4:4:4 YCbCr to RGB32 would result in a garbled image
Fixed: Decoding certain H.264 streams could drop a few frames at the start of playback

[Asmodian]

I also have to activate Enable gamma processing in pure power curve 2.4?

Nope, only set it on your TV and tell madVR what your TV is set to, gamma processing is for changing it from what your TV is set to.

On the TV only modify gamma to 2.4, I did not have to make any changes in the calibration of colors, brightness and contrast (is it normal?)

Yes, perfectly normal.

DCI-P3 and bt.2020 (not much difference between one and another) looks incredible with Hdr, but with bt.709 content not so much. Even after activating Wide Color Gamut. Madvr does an excellent job!

Sounds good then. If you have your TV set to wide gamut madVR needs to be set to DCI-P3 to get more correct colors. However your TV is much more accurate when set to standard gamut (madVR set to BT.709). Don't stress too much if you like the TV in wide gamut with madVR in BT.709, the reason it is not as accurate in wide gamut mode is so that it looks better with BT.709 content in wide gamut mode (but worse with DCI-P3/HDR content).

[Oguignant]

Nope, only set it on your TV and tell madVR what your TV is set to, gamma processing is for changing it from what your TV is set to.


I turned the switch to 2.2. Some changes I will have to make in the configuration, because I do not get used to how the skin tones are. (very strong). not bad. Is that I'm not used to it. Then I'll take a screenshot from the tv app and upload it.

[Arm3nian]

Couple of questions:

Is it recommended to use "process HDR content" without an HDR display?

When I specify a 3DLUT, for any of the 2 options on the hdr page, it says wrong input/format for madvr.

Do I make a bt.709 lut or a bt.2020 lut for bt.2020 content on a normal gamut display (100% srgb)?

Thanks

[CruNcher]

Did somebody compared MadVR vs Sonys latest released X-Realtiy PP especially the Super Resolution Upscaler, compared to a relative price point optimized consumer Product like the XD80 series ?
What about Samsungs KS7000/8000 SAIT R&D improvements, they currently seem to win a lot of prices visualy not only from the Panel part itself but their FRC conversion seems to have reached the most stable state including the BFI could be even intersting comparing vs SVP and AMD Fluid Motion by now.


NGU vs Sony and Samsung with the ability to analyze Stream input in Realtime and adapt could be interesting :)

Panasonic is also doing some crazy stuff creating for each Frame a Histogram and adapt that to get better contrast and depth from inputs, also Samsung seems todo something similiar since some time now :D

AVG user seem to accept and like the upscaling results from X-Reality same for Panasonic HCX and HCX+ named PP.

It seems only the relatively cheap stuff fails heavily but the higher price points by now seem to not produce so bad results from the past.

seems also we reach now virtually in many devices at acceptable price points almost the Full REC 709 space and even some relative cheap devices come perfectly pre calibrated some even with native 120 HZ Panels and upto blasting 500 cd/m with those Ultra HD Premium peaks of 1000 at some higher cost from that half hit for some seconds stable.

Pretty impresed of the state now with HDR BT 2020 the new target, we finally reached Blu-Ray Master Quality and with 4K aquisition entering also pro sumer space and entry we even hit 1080 4:2:2 chroma it seems for the mass market, though native 10 bit is now at the Premium Level at least has left Professional only space and 12 bit being the next thing in preparation after 10 bit reached the Mainstream market.

I wonder now how long it will take from 10 bit to move from Premium to Mainstream finally, counting the days ;)

[Georgel]

Seems I got a random Crash with this error

exception number : 1
exception class : Exception
exception message : Zugriffsverletzung bei Adresse $61a07805 in Modul 'XySubFilter.dll'. Lesen von Adresse $0.

No idea what could had caused it (?)

EDIT:: Also quite curious why the error is in German

[Deboi]

A couple of questions:

- In my old TV (only limited range), I had madVR (limited) - Graphics card (Full, with madLevelsTweaker) - TV (Limited). Now I´ve purchased a new one that accepts Full range. Shoud I use the same settings or change everithing to Full range?

- This TV has also a game mode that can do chroma 4:4:4, shoud I use this mode for madVR?

- In the rtings page says that is a 10 bit panel (Sony KDL 43W808c), in madVR settings In devices - properties I put 10 bit (or higher) and I use enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode and use Direct3D 11 for presentation. Is this right even if the source isn´t 10 bit? It is an Optimus PC (GTX 960m and Intel HD 530). I don´t even know if the Intel card can do 10 bit.

Thank you and sorry for my English

[Asmodian]

Yes to all 3.

10-bit is good for any content. When converting from 8-bit YCbCr the RGB bit depth is greater than 8-bit, same with resizing.

[fedpul]

Yes to all 3.

10-bit is good for any content. When converting from 8-bit YCbCr the RGB bit depth is greater than 8-bit, same with resizing.
4K 4:4:4 10 bit does not exceed the limits of HDMI 2.0?

Enviado desde mi MI 4LTE mediante Tapatalk

[nevcairiel]

4K 4:4:4 10 bit does not exceed the limits of HDMI 2.0?

At 60Hz it does, but the majority of people don't have a 4K TV yet (like the person who asked above, the model he listed is FullHD)

[Q-the-STORM]

4K 4:4:4 10 bit does not exceed the limits of HDMI 2.0?

only for anything above 2160p30....
since most video is 23.976fps, you can do 23.976Hz at 2160p 4:4:4 10bit...

[fedpul]

Thanks for the answer. I am actually using a 4K TV with a GTX 970 through HDMI 1.4a.

[Patrik G]

NGU vs Sony and Samsung with the ability to analyze Stream input in Realtime and adapt could be interesting :)


NGU goes overboard and crash and burns why do you want to compare it?
but maybe its hard to see on a LCD/OLED tv with only 300 lines of motion resolution lol
its still blurry as hell.

for plasma users NGU looks crap
i get the same effect if i bump up sharpness +20.
Hello to flickering chainsaw edges and morie patterns all over the image.

NNEDI3 produces an accurate and natural image NGU does not.
Back to the drawing table madshi ;)
and one tip: use a proper tv to evaluate your scaling algorithms

[thighhighs]

Patrik G
If you like nnedi sharpness (without SuperRes) you can use NGU + Soften Edges 3 to kill sharpness and get nnedi (without SuperRes) sharpness level.

[CruNcher]

NGU goes overboard and crash and burns why do you want to compare it?
but maybe its hard to see on a LCD/OLED tv with only 300 lines of motion resolution lol
its still blurry as hell.

for plasma users NGU looks crap
i get the same effect if i bump up sharpness +20.
Hello to flickering chainsaw edges and morie patterns all over the image.

NNEDI3 produces an accurate and natural image NGU does not.
Back to the drawing table madshi ;)
and one tip: use a proper tv to evaluate your scaling algorithms

300 lines is a little extreme low KS Series isnt that bad in most ISF Calibrator Certified tests according to them non native Samsung can even reach full 1080 lines with their PP

300 nativ would be rather the lower price range Performance.

[huhn]

just ignore it. it is not a secret that sony with impulse mode and samsung with BFI do 2160 lines... just move on...

without bfi and black light strob you will get 300 lines of motion resolution. which is only one part of motion plasma rainbow...

[CruNcher]

300 ?

its double of that in the KS series entry level on a native 120 Hz Panel if you turn BFI (Clear Motion) off

http://i1.sendpic.org/t/9v/9vkvrAO4j4VWnBsji6nrd2fYofd.jpg (http://sendpic.org/view/1/i/kX8tbdA1lurqAOrLDtmQzT6k4JT.png)

[huhn]

without setting you are wasting your time.
motion interpolation increase this too.

as long as a displays is sample hold it will stay at 300 lines for 60 FPS.

[ryrynz]

NGU goes overboard and crash and burns


Correction, produces coil whine :)


but maybe its hard to see on a LCD/OLED tv with only 300 lines of motion resolution lol


Or a 1024x768 or whatever plasma.. :P


for plasma users NGU looks crap
i get the same effect if i bump up sharpness +20.
Hello to flickering chainsaw edges and morie patterns all over the image.


YMMV I guess.. I had a good laugh from this though.


NNEDI3 produces an accurate and natural image NGU does not.


Not entirely true, madshi developed this using various ground truths, in many cases this would produce a natural and accurate image. In saying that I doubt I'll use it any time soon.


and one tip: use a proper tv to evaluate your scaling algorithms


100% agree. A blind dog can't lead a blind man.

[Mistery 73]

greetings to all ..
is there a way to mask the image in the top of the screen side with madVR?
leaving the top fixed without scale the image?

[Cinemancave]

How should I configure madvr/lav in order to perform HDR-->SDR conversion and leaving BT.2020 untouched?

I have a JVC projector and a popular method of watching UHD is to let Panasonic UB700/900 do HDR-->SDR conversion with BT.2020 passthrough with the help of the HD fury/integral. I am basically interested in doing the same thing with Madvr since I now have HDR content on my HTPC. I am thinking this should be possible?

[nevcairiel]

Just set your display device in madVR to be native BT.2020 ("is already calibrated to bt.2020" on the device page), then it should leave it alone.

[Cinemancave]

Ok sounds good :)
When MadVR is set to "is already calibrated to bt.2020" and it receives rec709, I assume that it leaves it untouched and doesn't try to expand the gamut? I am looking for a "set it and forget it"-setting and only adjust the color gamut in the projector depending on content.

[bcec]

NGU goes overboard and crash and burns why do you want to compare it?
...
NNEDI3 produces an accurate and natural image NGU does not.
Back to the drawing table madshi ;)


I haven't been following up NGU very closely recently, but last I remember everyone was raving about it. Samples looked great with it. Did people's opinions on it change?

[Asmodian]

No, it is just that Patrik didn't like it. You can never please everyone. :p

[Oguignant]

At 60Hz it does, but the majority of people don't have a 4K TV yet (like the person who asked above, the model he listed is FullHD)

4k 60mhz 4.4.4 exceeds 18Gbps bandwidths? Are you sure?
I use it but change automatically to 23/24 mhz when the movie is 23.976 fps...

Always with uhd deep color enabled. Using in 60 mhz or 23/24 mhz noticed that it looks bad or choppy.

[Oguignant]

I haven't been following up NGU very closely recently, but last I remember everyone was raving about it. Samples looked great with it. Did people's opinions on it change?

For my NGU does a good job. Much faster than neddi.

[sneaker_ger]

4k 60mhz 4.4.4 exceeds 18Gbps bandwidths?
For >=10 bit and if you add the overhead: yes.

[Oguignant]

If you add the overhead: yes.

Always with uhd deep color enabled. Using in 60 mhz or 23/24 mhz noticed that it looks bad or choppy.

[Oguignant]

For >=10 bit and if you add the overhead: yes.

Should I see wrong when it exceeds the bandwidth?

[sneaker_ger]

It cannot switch to that mode at all. Either there will be a fall-back to a different mode or there will be an error message.

[Q-the-STORM]

Should I see wrong when it exceeds the bandwidth?

You wouldn't see anything, your GPU wouldn't allow to send anything above 18gbps, so even if you try to force it, you wouldn't get a signal...

btw it's hz not mhz....

[Oguignant]

It cannot switch to that mode at all. Either there will be a fall-back to a different mode or there will be an error message.

I use it 4k 60 mhz 10 bit 4.4.4 without any problem.

[sneaker_ger]

You don't, at least not via HDMI.

[Oguignant]

You don't, at least not via HDMI.

use rgb or ycbcr444 for hdmi 2.0b (Gtx 1080 and lg ef9500 uhd deep color) and madvr exclusive mode 10bit 4k 60mhz.
Do not tell me just "no", pls explain why you say "no"

[nevcairiel]

use rgb or ycbcr444 for hdmi 2.0b (Gtx 1080 and lg ef9500 uhd deep color) and madvr exclusive mode 10bit 4k 60mhz.
Do not tell me just "no", pls explain why you say "no"

Because its physically impossible. Its beyond the bandwidth offered of HDMI 2.0. Nothing can change the physical properties of the HDMI protocol.

Just because madVR is in 10-bit mode doesn't necessarily mean your GPU outputs 10-bit to the TV.

The best you can do is 60Hz 4K 4:4:4 8-bit, or if you really want 10-bit for some reason its down to 4:2:2.
Its a shame they didn't increase the HDMI bandwidth slightly more to allow this, but alas they didn't.

HDMI 2.1 is supposed to be officialy announced at CES in January. All so far known about it is that it'll add dynamic HDR support - if it'll also increase the bandwidth is unknown (to me, anyway).

[Q-the-STORM]

if it'll also increase the bandwidth is unknown (to me, anyway).
every information I've read so far has been suggesting there is not a bandwidth change and 2.1 will simply be a firmware update...

[Oguignant]

Because its physically impossible. Its beyond the bandwidth offered of HDMI 2.0. Nothing can change the physical properties of the HDMI protocol.

Just because madVR is in 10-bit mode doesn't necessarily mean your GPU outputs 10-bit to the TV.

The best you can do is 60Hz 4K 4:4:4 8-bit, or if you really want 10-bit for some reason its down to 4:2:2.
Its a shame they didn't increase the HDMI bandwidth slightly more to allow this, but alas they didn't.

HDMI 2.1 is supposed to be officialy announced at CES in January. All so far known about it is that it'll add dynamic HDR support - if it'll also increase the bandwidth is unknown (to me, anyway).

Clarisimo!
So, when madvr says 10 bit in exclusive mode, what does it mean? I guess, madvr converts 8 bit into 10bit?

this means that Madvr can never match or exceed the quality of the native TV player?

pd. Happy New Year to everyone!