madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[huhn]

rule 8:
https://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm

you have ffdshow or something else installed?
else this file claims to be 8 bit nv12 with no meta data.

[Cowboydude99]

rule 8:
https://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm

you have ffdshow or something else installed?
else this file claims to be 8 bit nv12 with no meta data.

Ah, noted!

Yes. Ffdshow I believe is installed with SVP4 Pro. It has solved my stuttering issues.

I removed it for testing and now I see BT.2020 listed in the MADVR OSD.
It doesn't seem to want to switch to FSE mode.

I guess I'll reach out to the dev of SVP4 Pro, but something tells me there is no solution...

Would a TV/Projector play the HDR profile if it wasn't getting 10bit HDR?

[huhn]

yes they will play it if they don't get 10 bit i don't even know why you think this is related.

[tyguy]

I wouldn't have expected it to be a decoding issue, your decoding queue is full. Is your PCIe slot a x16 3.0 one?

Are you sure changing to native did not change the way HDR is being handled? You do need copy back to be able to run all the HDR tone mapping features so I suspect the improvement came from not being able to run those anymore, rather than an actual performance improvement from running native.


Is this true about needing copy back to use all the tonemapping features? I’m seeing conflicting information on this.

[Asmodian]

It is for v0.92.17 to be at least, I am not sure about the various beta versions.

[SirMaster]

You do not need copyback for any tone-mapping feature on the betas for last year at least. You only need it for black bar detection and BluRay menu support.

It used to be that highlight detail recovery didn't work with native deciding. But it has for awhile now.

[tyguy]

You do not need copyback for any tone-mapping feature on the betas for last year at least. You only need it for black bar detection and BluRay menu support.

It used to be that highlight detail recovery didn't work with native deciding. But it has for awhile now.


Okay thanks, I don’t use black bar detection and I don’t play blue rays with it so I think I’ll use d3d11 native.

[amayra]

can madvr detect what is my display Color Depth ?

[Asmodian]

Yes, it also reports it as part of the first line in the OSD (ctrl-J).

Also, it defaults to "auto" for the display bit depth and will switch to 10 bit output if the display color depth is 10 bit or higher.

[huhn]

on nvidia only.

[amayra]

on nvidia only.

intel and amd doesn't have this option ?

[amayra]

Yes, it also reports it as part of the first line in the OSD (ctrl-J).

Also, it defaults to "auto" for the display bit depth and will switch to 10 bit output if the display color depth is 10 bit or higher.

can i use device identification tap to determine my bit depth ?

[huhn]

12 bit input support is mandatory back in the 1080p days.
if it is a TV yt has to be a low end device to not support 10-12 bit input.
but if that adds anything is a different story it usually makes it worse.
and the madVR output setting is not really the GPU output setting they are related but they ca be "whatever".
the current version of madVR denies 10 bit rendering when 8 bit is send to a void an nvidia bug which may or may not exists anymore.

and yes madVR only "knows" the GPU output format with nvidia.
intel and amd may didn't support this back when it was added or may not support now.

[VBB]

the current version of madVR denies 10 bit rendering when 8 bit is send to a void an nvidia bug which may or may not exists anymore.

You sure about that, Huhn? I have madVR set to 10-bit, rather than auto, and of course also Nvidia output to 10-bit. madVR shows both set to 10-bit in the UI, and also when 8-bit content is playing. The only bug that I occasionally encounter is that madVR switches to 8-bit rendering even though 10-bit is selected in the settings. When that happens, I have to reboot the PC to get 10-bit back.

EDIT: I should note I'm using beta 112.

[amayra]

look like my TV support but if my iGPU hd 4000 doesn't will this make driver do dither to 8bit and this will leads to ugly output right ?

[mclingo]

can someone running an AMD card RX version check their clock deviations with recent drivers, I never check mine as they are always good with AMD but i've been noticed a few skips recently and when i checked mine is settling on around 1 frame skip every 30 mins which is terrible, i've tried a few of the recent drivers and no change, cant seem to find whats causing it, even does it with MADVR set to default, with or without FSE turned on, no idea whats going on, any suggestions?, i havent taken the CRU route yet as i've never had to do that before, got to be something up with my HTPC.

[tp4tissue]

look like my TV support but if my iGPU hd 4000 doesn't will this make driver do dither to 8bit and this will leads to ugly output right ?

Don't use 10 bit, use 8 bit across your entire pipe. Stop thinking about it. <This is the way>
:D

[tp4tissue]

hi, thank you for your comment.
The conversion from HDR to SDR was not my initiative. I read that some users who own an OLED or LED TV have given up on converting HDR to HDR to switch to converting HDR to SDR.
At the beginning I was very skeptical too like you .. then I made several tests and I had to change my mind.

You can try it both ways. what you're looking for is which gives you the most pleasing highlight detail and overall image quality.

It's Madvr's tone mapping vs the B9's tonemapping.

The B9 has 400nits in SDR mode, and 550-600nits in HDR mode. Those would be ur target nit settings, but you can put them up or down by 50-100 nits because heck you have no idea what your unit is actually pushing out without a meter.

The madvr tonemapping lets you output either SDR or HDR, you can try both, but due to the extremely non-linear nature of HDR modes on OLEDs, It adds a huge element of unpredictability to Madvr's ability to tonemap. It doesn't hurt to try it, but I've seen it get kinda funky.

This is why we recommend SDR mode, even though it doesn't get as peaky.

There's some difficulty in comparison, because you can't compare still frames, because the abl will kick in and dim the bright spots, you have to sort of compare it in motion. it's a PITA :D

[mclingo]

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBikMZxZSzDUOuZjU1AIQ?e=F7uChy


Hi, here's a puzzle, i'm getting frame drops every 30 mins when before it was hours if not days, I've chucked everything at it and I cant seem to shift this odd display deviation, see screen shot, same movie played a few months apart, one has display showing as 23.976xxxxx and the other 23,975xxxx, the latter is the problematic one.

Anyone any idea what would cause this to change, obviously my PC has changed quite a bit, I have a new GFX card, several windows updates etc but why would this change?

It does this with any movie I now play whether it be 4k/1080p/3d/HDR etc, all drop a frame every 30 mins or so, its bizzare.

[QBhd]

Clock deviation is affected by numerous factors. Temps are right up there. If your PC is running warmer or cooler than before that can have a big impact. Drivers, Hardware, OS.... to many factors to pin down a cause. If it is bothering you, create custom resolutions or use WASAPI audio renderer (my choice of late).

QB

[huhn]

can someone running an AMD card RX version check their clock deviations with recent drivers, I never check mine as they are always good with AMD but i've been noticed a few skips recently and when i checked mine is settling on around 1 frame skip every 30 mins which is terrible, i've tried a few of the recent drivers and no change, cant seem to find whats causing it, even does it with MADVR set to default, with or without FSE turned on, no idea whats going on, any suggestions?, i havent taken the CRU route yet as i've never had to do that before, got to be something up with my HTPC.

audio output device?
i'm a broken record now but it doesn't matter if your GPU has a "better" clock if the audio clock disagrees only one has to be off.

look like my TV support but if my iGPU hd 4000 doesn't will this make driver do dither to 8bit and this will leads to ugly output right ?

sorry who knows if your TV can't tell if it gets 10 or 8 in this case and you are using a low end iGPU why would you care about 10 bit.

You sure about that, Huhn? I have madVR set to 10-bit, rather than auto, and of course also Nvidia output to 10-bit. madVR shows both set to 10-bit in the UI, and also when 8-bit content is playing. The only bug that I occasionally encounter is that madVR switches to 8-bit rendering even though 10-bit is selected in the settings. When that happens, I have to reboot the PC to get 10-bit back.

EDIT: I should note I'm using beta 112.

what has anything of this todo with played content?
and yes just tested it if the GPU outputs 8 bit madVR will only output 8 bit on beta 112. if i switch to 4:2:0 12 bit it will do 10 bit.
this is about WFS.

[tp4tissue]

I haven't looked too much into getting perfect frame sync.

What is the obsession about ? what difference is there if it drops 1 frame ever 15-30minutes, I set 23.976 hz, and just let it roll, it doesn't come up to exactly that on every tv. My tv has 23.98, 23.9758 , etc etc.

Is the difference visually identifiable, or is this about harvesting unicorn tears ??

[huhn]

is not hard to see if a frame is shown for 42 ms or wrongly for 84ms. this is nothing hard to see.

the display refreshrate is not that relevant it is compare to the CPU/system clock which doesn't matter to use.
why does it look so good on intel well because they are or at least could be one and the same.

[mclingo]

no not at all, i'm used to perfect playback so one frame drop during a panning shot takes me right out the movie, with one every 30 mins i will likely see 3 or 4 per movie, this is unacceptable to me as i've been having zero drops prior to this. I still dont understand why it shows my display as 23,975xxxx now where before it was 23,976xxxx, this seems to be the issue for me.

It happens in both KODI DS and MPC-HC with different audio setups, i've tried going back to really old drivers / LAV / MADVR to no avail, its odd that it seems locked on about 30 minutes, is it possible there is a duff customer CRU set on my machine somehow caused by all the constant installing a removing driver versions, i have nothing set in MADVR but just wondering is there is some remnant in the registy causing it somehow, its doing my head in :(

I have an old windows image i might try but its a faff to dig it out and install it, if anyone has any other ideas please let me know.

[hannes69]

Hi, here's a puzzle, i'm getting frame drops every 30 mins when before it was hours if not days
[...]
obviously my PC has changed quite a bit, I have a new GFX card

If I understand it right, you had zero frame drops with your old GPU and now you have frame drops with your new GPU.
Then you have delivered the answer to your question yourself - the 'culprit' is your new GPU.
The number of dropped/repeated frames is influenced by the video device (GPU) and audio device.
So the drop/repeat rate will change if you replace your GPU or replace the sound card (you will have different results if you use onboard sound or additional sound card or hdmi audio).
That you had perfect playback with your old GPU was plain coincidence. That meant that the clocks of your GPU and your audio device ran more or less with the same speed.
The clock of your new GPU now doesn´t have the same speed as your audio device so you have frame drops.
You can´t influence these clocks directly.
There are technical solutions to work around that with different (dis)advantages and sideeffects.
You can use Reclock (not recommended) which deals with audio playback speed which can be hearable and doesn´t work with bitstreaming.
In madVR you can use smoothmotion, which deals with the video playback rate by frame blending. This leads to a little amount of blurring, which some people see, some not.
KODI has a setting "sync playback to display" which does more ore less the same like Reclock.
Then you have custom resolutions (used by CRU or madVR). This technique compensates the clock difference by using the right amount of blanking (invisible) so a video frame durates a little bit longer or shorter. This has no side effects, the only requirement is that your display accepts a certain range of custom resolutions.
Take your pill ;)

[mclingo]

Hi, no these have only started recently after I got my new gp, I don't know exactly when unfortunately but I tried a driver I was using when I was sure I didn't have any issues and that made no difference.

EDIT - just dropped in an image of my PC from a while back, this has same issue, starting to wonder now if i've always had this problem and i've just not spotted it until now but we should not be getting this with AMD cards, they've always had really solid 23.976 performance.

Can anyone else with an RX5700 series report back what they are seeing for display in MADVR, and what sort of frame drops they are getting.

[hannes69]

So you are definetely using the same hardware, same audio output device?
The regular drops/repeats mentioned in madVR´s OSD (one drop every ... hours/minutes) only depend on hardware clocks. They do not depend on OS, driver version or software settings.
A change in that value means, that you have replaced hardware or you are using other hardware (with multiple GPUs or sound devices using a different device than before) or you are using one of the technical approaches mentioned above like using a custom resolution.
Are you really seeing the frame drops every 30 minutes? The value given in the OSD is a calculated one and it could be miscalculated due to some reasons.

Like QBhd mentioned above, there is an impact by temperature (another hardware factor). This impact is not really huge but it is a given. You can test this by let running the GPU hotter or cooler by influencing the fan speed. The value will be different for a very cool and very hot running GPU. The same applies to the audio device, but normally you don´t know the temperature.
This influence is more in the range: if you have e.g. 12 hours time between drops/repeats with a cool GPU then you´ll get maybe 8 hours with a hot GPU. As example. It is not in the range "5 days cool -> 3 minutes hot".


but we should not be getting this with AMD cards, they've always had really solid 23.976 performance
No. The drop/repeat rate depends on video AND audio device. So when putting the same GPU in different PCs you will get different results if using different audio devices.
It is well possible though, that different manufacturers have different tolerances, different hardware design... so that some devices are 'better' in this regard than others.
But the principle of the problem is always the same: you have different clocks in the playback system and the don´t run exactly with the same speed. If lucky, they run with a speed 'enough similar', if not lucky then not.
It simply doesn´t only depend on the GPU, so you can´t assume that when using a certain GPU you are on 'the safe side'.
There is a reason for the existance of custom resolutions, reclock, smoothmotion. These are the answer for the given problem. The answer was never 'buy a certain brand/type of GPU'.

[mclingo]

Hi, in all the time i've been using AMD cards and MADVR i've never once had an issue like this, this is over a decade and about 6 or more different AMD cards, i've always had solid 23,976 performance. I did upgrade my entire rig recently, GPU CPU/motherboard/RAM essentially a new PC but i'm sure I didnt have this issue, just wished I'd taken a more recent screen shot to compare with.

Should setting a CRU help here then, I tried this last night but it seemed to make no different at all, i've never set these before so I likely did it wrong and need to read up on this.

Its no my OS as i've dropped in a much older version, it must either be my new PC hardware as I also plugged in another TV and got same results and bypassed my receiver and got same results, if it turns out to be this sodding RX5700 i'll lose it, this has been my worst hardware purcahse decision i've ever made but was forced into it as I still neeed 3D support and better gaming hardware.

:(

[jkauff]

It sounds like you're doing your custom resolutions with the GPU itself. I don't use AMD, so I don't know what adjustments are available to you.

I use CRU to create my custom entries, which I then fine-tune using madVR's "Optimize" routine. I can't save the settings ("GPU has rejected the setting"), so I write down all the details and go back to CRU to implement madVR's recommendations. I can usually get to "Repeats frame every 4 hours" or better.

I like that CRU creates the custom settings at the OS level and not at the GPU level.

[oldpainlesskodi]

1 drop frame every 8/9 hours at 2160 23p, reported after 5 mins of video playback - i suspect it will go into days if I left it play.

NO cru used or madvr special timmings - all standard.

[QBhd]

@mclingo
As almost everyone here has explained to you... what you think you are seeing is normal when you change so much hardware. You are trying to compare apples to oranges, it's as simple as that. Throw out everything you think you should see and just start from scratch. Setting up custom resolutions on an AMD cards is truly a simple task, it's built right into to driver. Now there MAY be an issue with some "standard" timings in an EDID which madVR cannot "optimize"... I have not been able to figure out which part of the chain fails here (madVR, OS, driver, etc.) but the solution is to remove those "standard" timings and we are back in business.

If you are having problems optimizing custom resolutions here is my guide to removing the problematic "standard" timings.
QB's Standard EDID timings fix (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1895131#post1895131)

QB

[mclingo]

Hi, i set a CRU, ran a movie for 35 mins and now i'm back to 9 hours without a drop, I just think its odd this has happened, i'm positve i didnt have this issue a couple of weeks back.

with OPK reporting no issues with an almost identical rig I can help feeling something is off somewhere.

but thanks again for all the help everyone :)


here is my tweaked CRU, only a couple of slight nudges on sync width and pixel clock.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBikMZyy96Ltq7qJ9Faew?e=YkWlGP

[Stef2]

Just use CRU (https://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-Custom-Resolution-Utility-CRU) for custom resolutions, it always works fine.

What is the latest (or close) Nvidia driver version that allows madvr to calculate "optimized" custom timings? as of right now, there is no way I can get madvr to display "optimization data available" no matter what resolution I use or how long I play a movie. I know about CRU, but I need Madvr to "suggest" me what values to enter in CRU, right?

[huhn]

What is the latest (or close) Nvidia driver version that allows madvr to calculate "optimized" custom timings? as of right now, there is no way I can get madvr to display "optimization data available" no matter what resolution I use or how long I play a movie. I know about CRU, but I need Madvr to "suggest" me what values to enter in CRU, right?

calculating usually works but applying doesn't so you have to take the numbers and use them in cru.

@mclingo
what audio device?
just list all you are using.

[mclingo]

using MPC-HC as an example i just using system default, which is AMD high definition audio device via bitstreaming

[huhn]

thanks this setup is in theory able to do it out of the box.

[mclingo]

yeah this is what I thought, the fact i've fixed it with a CRU could suggest something in the OS was harboring a corrupted resolution for 23,976, a fresh windows build may sort this but this is a massive ball ache, I might run stripped down test build at some point to see if it is the OS.

[huhn]

beware that the AMD driver "had" some serious refreshrate issues mostly for 240 hz screens.

[senzaparole]

You can try it both ways. what you're looking for is which gives you the most pleasing highlight detail and overall image quality.

It's Madvr's tone mapping vs the B9's tonemapping.

The B9 has 400nits in SDR mode, and 550-600nits in HDR mode. Those would be ur target nit settings, but you can put them up or down by 50-100 nits because heck you have no idea what your unit is actually pushing out without a meter.

The madvr tonemapping lets you output either SDR or HDR, you can try both, but due to the extremely non-linear nature of HDR modes on OLEDs, It adds a huge element of unpredictability to Madvr's ability to tonemap. It doesn't hurt to try it, but I've seen it get kinda funky.

This is why we recommend SDR mode, even though it doesn't get as peaky.

There's some difficulty in comparison, because you can't compare still frames, because the abl will kick in and dim the bright spots, you have to sort of compare it in motion. it's a PITA :D

Hi. Thanks for the explanation of the HDR and SDR modes.
I'm glad someone thinks that converting HDR to SDR into an LG B9 makes sense.

One day I will buy a colorimeter to better compare the two modes. At the moment what do you think of the settings that I wrote in my post n. 59051?

[oldpainlesskodi]

@mclingo - any reason you have not installed 20.4.1?

[VBB]

what has anything of this todo with played content?
and yes just tested it if the GPU outputs 8 bit madVR will only output 8 bit on beta 112. if i switch to 4:2:0 12 bit it will do 10 bit.
this is about WFS.

I misunderstood what you were trying to say, and it makes sense now. Doesn't apply to me since my entire chain is 10-bit.

[tp4tissue]

Hi. Thanks for the explanation of the HDR and SDR modes.
I'm glad someone thinks that converting HDR to SDR into an LG B9 makes sense.

One day I will buy a colorimeter to better compare the two modes. At the moment what do you think of the settings that I wrote in my post n. 59051?

Other than setting a high value for highlight recovery,

The other settings fall in the to-taste category. The reason is, the other settings are there to allow users to configure the settings to _visually_ preserve the creator's intent.

HOWEVER, I'm not sure anyone making the recommendations from the other Madvr tonemapping thread even Owns a reference HDR monitor. So to what extent do they preserve intent "of which no one in that thread has seen",, This i find a bit iffy.

[oldpainlesskodi]

Anyone else have an issue with win 10 2004 appearing to not play nicely with Madvr? I'm using limited-full-limited chain (long story). Sometimes on staring playback, madvr drops out of Fullscreen exc 10bit to windowed 8 bit, and crushes the blacks, as if it reverts to full-full-limited.

EDIT - never mind, found the culprit (autohidemouse app)

[mclingo]

@mclingo - any reason you have not installed 20.4.1?

Hi, i'm not using the latest HDR fixed driver as it has a bug with my particular TV where windows locks to 444 ycbr 12bit and wont move from that whilst in 1080p60, i have a workaround for it but as i'm tonemapping to SDR now and not really bothering with HDR at the moment i've dropped back to a driver which doesnt have this bug.

I'm going to do a test build to see if all these problem are my machine rather than drivers but havent had change yet.

[oldpainlesskodi]

ok, makes sense.

[Martin51]

Hi all, today I updated k-lite and my nvidia drivers and I am having a new issue with HDR content. When in full screen, when opening the context menu in MPC HC or making the seek bar appear then the image on my TV stops for 2 seconds and shows HDR active. It seems HDR is turning off and on again. I am not using the exlusive mode. Does someone knows what could be wrong? Thank you so much for your help.

[Klaus1189]

Driver issue, please stick to the driver thread:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013

Read post 1193 and later

[WuNgUn]

So, I managed to change the input type on my Samsung TV from PC to "home theater system", and this seems to have fixed the over scanning issue I've had while watching a movie at 23fps in PC mode.
So input says as expected, RGB 8 bit Full.
But it also says HDR unknown properties and limited range...
Is this okay? Normal...?
But I also see D3D9 10 bit 4:2:0

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200413/94438f27ad53e886f0755c5f01668f61.jpg

[WuNgUn]

Setup in PC mode, when I put on a movie, the TV would automatically switch to movie mode (standard picture while in windows desktop).
But with input device setup as home theater system, it stays in whatever mode I last left it.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

[QBhd]

That's a TV problem, not a madVR problem

QB