madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[madshi]

the big point was that Philips pc mode works with all refresh rate. and the information is still easy to find in the manuels.
Does every Philips TV support PC mode with all refresh rates?

Error Diffusion performance is highly dependent on having Smooth Motion turned on.

I don’t know if this is the correct behavior. ED is applied after SM, so the performance hit is massive if you are doing 24->60. Is it necessary to dither after SM or it can be done before it?
You're right that SM FRC increases the cost of Error Diffusion quite a lot. There's nothing I can do about it. Either I apply Error Diffusion or I don't apply it. Applying it only to some frames doesn't make so much sense. Depending on source frame rate and display refresh rate, every frame could potentially blended. So it doesn't make sense to only apply it to the non-blended frames, either...

Queues are not always full, but no frames are dropped.
Is it a normal result?
What does "not always full" mean exactly? As long as playback is smooth and no frames are dropped, everything seems to be ok. If queues go near empty sometimes that's not so good, though. They don't necessarily have to be full, but they should be far enough away from empty to be safe...

It works fine in FSE and overlay, problem only in windowed mode. It happens on all videos with the same scenario. It could be a gpu load issue, goes from 55% to 60% after enabling frc.
Yes, smooth motion FRC is problematic in windowed mode. I've found that in windowed mode the max rendering times must be lower than the vsync time. Meaning with 60Hz, max rendering times must be smaller than 16.68ms. Otherwise playback will judder, even if no frame drops are recorded. In FSE mode, the situation is different. There rendering times only need to be smaller than the frame interval (e.g. 41.71ms for 24fps). There is probably nothing I can do about it. That's simply a limitation of D3D in windowed mode.

On the one hand NNEDI gives beautiful sharp edges but does so at the expense of thinning things out a little more than they should be on these edges.
Actually NNEDI does not thin out lines enough yet, I think. Try taking a high resolution image, then downscale is to 50%, then upscale it with NNEDI. I believe you'll find that NNEDI still has slightly fatter lines than the original high-res image sometimes.

Can you try this script?

if (deintFps > 24.5) and (deintFps < 25.5) "Off"
else "On"
Are we talking forced film mode? With forced film mode disabled, deintFps will be around 50.0 for PAL content.


GTX 760
Smooth motion on
60Hz
doubling 720p -> 1440p with nnedi 32 neurons
2560x1440 display


random dithering: 51-55% GPU load
error diffusion: 90+% load, occasional frame drops
That's probably due to the combination of using Smooth Motion FRC and Error diffusion. Using both means that Smooth Motion FRC increases the cost of Error diffusion, because Error diffusion must be applied to every output frame, and Smooth Motion FRC increases the output frames from 24fps to nearly 60fps. So basically Smooth Motion FRC means that the cost of Error diffusion increases by a factor of almost 2.5x.

Have you considered using void and cluster ordered dither instead of error diffusion? It would only require a lookup table instead of inspecting neighboring pixels. That might be more shader-friendly.
I don't think it's as high quality as error diffusion?

Is the performance hit with error diffusion due to OpenCL implementation or the algorithm itself?
The algorithm itself seems to be quite fast. About 2.5ms per 1080p frame on my HD7770. The majority of the cost comes from using OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop, at least when using AMD. On Intel GPUs interop is almost free, but the Intel GPU itself is rather slow with OpenCL. I don't about NVidia.

Relatively speaking, the OpenCL error-diffusion dither has the same cost at 1080p 24hz as Jinc4|AR Luma + Jinc4|AR Chroma 1280x720 -> 1920x1080 scaling + Random Dither. Overall I'd say it's probably the second most expensive thing in madVR behind NNEDI3 now, considering it's a couple ms slower than NNEDI3|16 1280x720 -> 2560x1440 display. At least that's the case with my GTX 770.
Is that with smooth motion FRC enabled? That is quite important to note, because it increases the cost of Error diffusion by a factor of about 2.5x.

Yes, I'd say its more true to the source, but the dither quality feels somewhat questionable on less than pristine sources. From what I can tell, it only does a hard mix of existing source colors, lightness, hues. For example, I saw it create a dither comprising dark specks on a light surface. Similarly I've seen it hard mix red specks and green specks in a pattern. While this works to some extent perceptually, it seems like it would be superior if the dither created new colors to better assist in creating smooth transitions.
Currently I'm doing Error diffusion in RGB. Maybe doing it in YCbCr would produce nicer results, I'm not sure. Other than that I don't have an algorithm which would spreads errors over multiple color channels. All the algorithms I know strictly work on one channel at a time, only.

My only current problem is that I've set mVR to automatically roll refresh rates when going FS and when going from 1080p60 windowed to 1080p24/50 FSE, I randomly get an "Exclusive mode failed" error message in the top left corner of mVR...and no FSE for me :scared:

It seems completely random so I'm not sure wth is going on here? Would you care for a log?
This does not sound like a new bug in v0.87.4, and that's all I care about atm. Also, most other users don't seem to have the problem you're describing. Not sure where it comes from.

I've checked the windows event viewer and it seems that PotP asks Windows to disable Aero before going FSE, is that part of the standard FSE procedure?

I've also tried to disable Aero when going FS in the mVR settings but then FSE didn't work anymore.
If PotP disables Aero behind madVR's back, that could eventually cause trouble, I don't know. I don't like it if media players try to be clever. Video playback is madVR's job, and PotP should the hell stay out of madVR's business... :D

Disabling Aero in madVR should not stop FSE mode from working. Maybe it collides with what PotP does, I don't know. I've not heard of such problems from MPC-HC users. Maybe you could double check with MPC-HC, just to be sure it's not media player related?

No 3D support, 4:4:4 only in 60Hz. 24p is dead smooth, though :)

IIRC only their "6" serie in the 2013 F lineup will allow for 3D but only the "5" serie allows for BFI without FI.......Sammy's FI hiccups on 24p and doesn't look all that good, OTOH their BFI provides the nice added value of removing motion blur and most visible flicker. I'm very sensitive to flicker BTW.
I don't think I need BFI. I don't plan to actually use the monitor for real movie watching, just as a monitor, and of course for madVR development testing. For that the monitor needs to support all features I need for testing, but it doesn't actually need to have a good quality video playback. It should have good quality monitor properties, though.

with version 0.87.4, if I enable NNEDI3, video doesnt freeze, but I get green color levels all over the video image.
Probably because its Nvidia.

If it was AMD, I'd get red color levels.....
Haha! Did you read the v0.87.4 announcement, though? It says you need to downgrade your drivers.

Why the picture with madVR is so dark compared to other renderers?
VMR9 renderless (http://i60.tinypic.com/33u9x0l.png)
madVR (http://i60.tinypic.com/28ur90l.png)
That's probably just a different output levels setting. You can configure the output levels in madVR's device management. Switch your display to TV levels, if that's what it wants for correct playback levels.

[cyberbeing]

There should only be one dithering process, which reduces the internal 16-bit floating point pixels down to 8-bit integer, and this should be done as the very last step, because the output of this process is in much lower bitdepth, namely 8-bit pixels.

My memory must be failing me then. I could have sworn that madVR performed dithering during other conversions which could result in accuracy loss, before the final dither down to 8bit.

[madshi]

Has anybody noticed if there is a visible quality difference between using 32 neurons vs 64 neurons to double Luma resolution with NNEDI3, since in several of my media files it's the difference between increasing/decreasing the rendering times to prevent frame drops.
There's a nice step up in quality from 16 to 32 neurons with some images. Every higher neuron setting increases quality a little bit, but not *that* much. 32 neurons should be fine. Unlike with Lanczos, where more taps often hurts more than it helps, with NNEDI3 more neurons usually have no disadvantages, other than performance. So more neurons shouldn't hurt, if your GPU can handle it. But IMHO 32 neurons are alright.

While playing around with different image doubling/quadrupling and scaling settings I think I've discovered a bug, unless I'm misunderstanding how it's supposed to work.

If I use NNEDI3 to double a 1280x720 video for output at 1080p it's my understanding that since the doubled resolution is higher than the output resolution no further image upscaling should be necessary. Only the image downscaling algorithm should scale it down to output resolution. However I noticed that the image upscaling setting still affects render times pretty much in the same way as if I didn't do any doubling before. If I switch between two extreme settings like Jinc 8 tap AR and Bicubic the rendering times change dramatically from something like 40 to 60 ms which should be way beyond any margin of error.
You probably only have enabled NNEDI3 doubling for luma, right? In that case the chroma channels are upscaled using the "image upscaling" algorithm. That's the explanation for what you're seeing.

Can anyone elaborate what MadVR currently does with 720x576 to produce 1920x1080 using NNEDI - Does NNEDI produce 1440x1152 which then has to be downscaled and then upscaled to fit 1080p ?
Depends on the exact settings in the image doubling page. 1920/720 = 2.67x. 1080/576 = 1.875x. So X and Y have quite different scaling factors. Depending on your image doubling settings it's possible that only X is doubled by NNEDI, or X and Y.

It's best new series of ATI R7 and R9 or is the same as HD7000?

I do not want to buy now one card and having to buy another one next year?

I'm reading reviews but this point is not clear for me. They says R7 and R9 series are manufactured with the same chips of HD7000 but have more functions. I don't understand.
I'm not sure if the new series of ATI GPUs have new technical abilities or not. If you're happy with the current algorithms I don't see a reason why you should have to buy another GPU next year. Of course if I add more algorithms in the future, you may want to use those, too. But then the 7750 should already have some more power than you need right now. But I don't know what future algorithms I might add and how much performance they will eat. So I can't promise that the 7750 will be fast enough a year from now. Maybe it will be. Maybe even a 7970 will not be fast enough. I don't know. Can only say what is fast enough for today's features.

BTW, I presume that "always - if upscaling is needed" should read "if scaling is bigger than 1.0 and lower than 2.0" for 2X luma and "if scaling is bigger than 2.0" for X4 luma?
Yes. Although quadrupling requires doing doubling first. So the double "always" option just means "bigger than 1.0".

I kind of don't see any difference between openCL dither and random dither, except for dropped frames :P
Tried dark and light scenes and both seem identical both when paused and playing.
Don't see any difference on my computer monitor, too, except if I take screenshots and zoom in. I do see a lower noise floor on my projector, though. It all depends on how big your display is, how far away you sit, and how sensitive to noise you are.

As of v0.87.4, I've been experiencing issues with IVideoWindow::SetWindowPosition(). v0.86.11 and prior have been working fine. It appears that madVR does not consistently respond to each request to set position - video no longer displays, although playback continues, leaving artifacts in the child area as if no painting has occurred. The main window has to be re-sized a few times for it to display again.

Have these implementations changed or should I be using another method for positioning madVR child window?
Nothing has changed there, as far as I'm aware. And all the other media players seem to have no problems with v0.87.4, without any code changes, so I don't really know what problems you've run into... :(

I did slightly modify some window subclassing code to make it more stable, but that shouldn't really affect media players.

Otherwise madshi, you really need to consider modifying the workflow so OpenCL dither is applied before Smooth Motion at original video framerate rather than after at double framerate w/ blended frames.
Proper blending produces floating point RGB data. That needs to be dithered down to 8bit.

Is it normal that OpenCL error diffusion increases average rendering time 3x? My GPU is a r9 270 (basically a 7870?) and using latest madVR.

I tried playing a few 1080p24 standard x264 blu-ray movies presented at 23.976 Hz.

Average rendering time (using Jinc 3 AR for both Luma and Chroma, Debanding low, all trade quality for performance options except OpenCL error diffusion disabled) was around 8-10 ms. The rendering time is about the same for 720p movies, so scaling for instance is rather cheap even with Jinc 3 AR.

With OpenCL error diffusion the average rendering time was raised to around 28-30 ms.

Should it really be that demanding?
Is smooth motion on or off? What is your display resolution? On my PC the cost of Error diffusion seems to be quite a bit lower than on yours, even though I only have an 7770. Is your display resolution much higher than 1080p, maybe?

Reports so far suggest that OpenCL Error Diffusion is indeed very demanding. Can't imagine most people can even use it.
Please STOP saying that!! I already corrected you in this post:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1664877&postcount=22144

The cost of Error Diffusion seems to differ a lot, depending on the exact settings (e.g. Smooth Motion FRC increases it a lot), the GPU, the monitor resoultion and frame rate. I can use it without any problems on my PC, with an HD7770, when playing back 1080p24 content without smooth motion FRC. The exact circumstances when it consumes how much have yet to be fully understood. It's too early to draw conclusions, especially such general unspecific onces as you just did (again).

It's partially a matter of perspective I believe. madshi's numbers showed it increased his relative render times by 400% when he enabled OpenCL dither compared to his previous settings. This could likely be interpolated into 400% higher GPU load and power draw. That said, I have no doubt it will perform well on AMD Southern Islands based GPUs, since that's what he optimized it for.
Argh.

It's 400% because I was playing content without any scaling and with cheap chroma upscaling. So the original rendering times were very low. If I had done upscaling with Jinc8AR, the increase of the rendering times caused by Error Diffusion might have been only 1% (wild guess). Does that mean anything? No. The only thing that is important is the number of milliseconds Error Diffusion takes to process a frame, not how much percent the increase is over some random rendering times with random settings.

And I've not optimized the Error Diffusion algorithm for any specific GPU. I've tested it with all AMD, Intel and NVidia and the code is pretty simple. So simple actually that no GPU specific optimizations made sense. The optimizations I did were very general, like trying to get along with just using registers and without using any memory accesses and stuff like that...

madshi, I have a bug to report with 0.87.4 (yes, finally, the week end nears, so I have more time to test):

There´s something wrong with chroma upscaling, even when using the Nvidia 327.23 drivers, as I get a yellow/greenish image instead of levels of grey (not sure if this is only NV related, don´t have an AMD at my disposal atm) when you enable chroma upscaling and you choose NNEDI3.

Steps to reproduce is pretty easy, just enable chroma upscaling NNEDI3 and it should show in windowed mode or in FSE. It also doesn´t matter how many neurons. I really hope this isn´t exclusively NV-related again, because this is using OpenCL.

For some reason, this is only happening on some files, example:
http://www.w6rz.net/filmrez.zip

This is with a GTX580 with the last working OpenCL drivers as of today (327.23).
Doesn't seem to happen with my GTX 650, using 327.23... :(

I still cannot see an error in my code though, does anyone see a problem? If not, is this a bug madshi?
I don't know. You didn't say which kind of videos (resolution, framerate) you tested with.

[madshi]

My memory must be failing me then. I could have sworn that madVR performed dithering during other conversions which could result in accuracy loss, before the final dither down to 8bit.
There's normally only the one last final dithering during the downconversion to the final 8bit output. If you want to do DXVA2 deinterlacing, though, and if the source video is more than 8bit, then another dithering pass is needed to convert the video to 8bit to satisfy DXVA2.

[huhn]

Does every Philips TV support PC mode with all refresh rates?

they are known for very good pc mode. and all i used/setup got that. i never heard of a Philips with only 60 hz pc mode. i didn't test them all so i can say that for sure.

but my Philips got a "problem" with pc mode too it is reported as limited but it's unlimited. i saw this with all philips tv i ever used since 2010. but i'm sure this is nothing you can't handle.

You're right that SM FRC increases the cost of Error Diffusion quite a lot. There's nothing I can do about it. Either I apply Error Diffusion or I don't apply it. Applying it only to some frames doesn't make so much sense. Depending on source frame rate and display refresh rate, every frame could potentially blended. So it doesn't make sense to only apply it to the non-blended frames, either...

how about using SM with the 8 bit ED picture this reduce quality but is way way faster.
ignore this too many post at the same time sorry.

[Werewolfy]

I suppose you're only doubling the luma channel and not the chroma channels? In that case Jinc might be used to upscale the chroma channels directly from 720x576 to 1920x1080. Luma can't be upscaled by Jinc for Y because it would be a downscale. So luma X is upscaled by using Lanczos (using the same tap number you specified for Jinc), and luma Y is downscaled using Catmull-Rom. Lanczos always replaces Jinc if Jinc is selected but can't be used.

Yes only the luma chanel, I don't really see the point to use NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling. Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know that Lanczos replace Jinc when it's needed.

Does every Philips TV support PC mode with all refresh rates?


No, some Philips TV don't even support 4:4:4 http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/philips-55pfl8008-201309193320.htm (see the benchmark results)

Have you considered this one? http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk /news/kdl32w653-201310313413.htm (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kdl32w653-201310313413.htm) It supports 4:4:4 at every refresh rates and it has everything except 3D, I don't know if it's a requirement for you.

[Farfie]

http://puu.sh/6EgZs.jpg
This is without error diffusion.

Something tells me AMD performance isn't nearly this bad. I don't see how I could ever do 4k upscale like this at anything above 16 neurons. Is this expected? I'd be willing to bet, from the reports in this thread, that AMD performance is much better.
Not trying to complain at all, but I love NNEDI3 and I'd also love to always use it for upscaling at at least 32 neurons, and I feel like a 680 should be able to do so much more.

[trip_let]

Quick questions:

1. Anybody else seeing this have Optimus (generally on laptops) Nvidia / Intel setup? I don't really think a GT 650M is fast enough for most of the OpenCL features anyway, but I want to confirm if it doesn't work for anyone else either or it's just me being dumb somewhere or somehow.

2. When downgrading drivers to make Nvidia work (non-Optimus too), do you have to perform a clean installation? That's one thing I haven't tried yet, partially because part of my Nvidia settings involve that renaming MPC-HC workaround to make the system choose the Nvidia GPU for the program in the first place...

[iSunrise]

Doesn't seem to happen with my GTX 650, using 327.23... :(
I tried to narrow it down further, it seems to be related to the deinterlacing/NNEDI3 settings (the clip itself is interlaced) and madVR uses IVTC/deinterlacing for it. Please always test with filmrez.ts.

So, for some reason NNEDI3 triggers that same problem, when deinterlacing is at some specific settings.

Please play around with the following:

1) automatically activate deinterlacing when needed (checked)
1.1) if in doubt, deactivate deinterlacing (checked)
- don´t check anything else in the deinterlacing tab -
2) enable NNEDI3 chroma upscaling
3) if you now suddenly check automatic source type in the deinterlacing tab, the bug goes away (grey levels instead of yellow)
4) If there´s no bug at this stage, enable/disable NNEDI3 chroma upsampling again
5) If there´s no bug at this stage, enable/disable deinterlacing again

My system is very clean, only LAV and madVR in the filter chain. I only downgraded to the 327.23 drivers from the 331.82 drivers and directly upgraded from 0.86.11 to 0.87.4. Nothing else changed.

I don't know. You didn't say which kind of videos (resolution, framerate) you tested with.
I have played a 1080p 59.940fps file where the "1080p LowFPS" profile was always selected, even though it´s clearly higher than 50fps, that´s when I realized it. Whatever I played after it, the original script was always picked and I could reproduce it with every file that normally shouldn´t select the "1080p LowFPS" profile. If I use the corrected script, everything works as expected.

EDIT: After a system restart, for some reason I cannot reproduce this bug anymore. This is very weird, since I´ve tested this for like 20 minutes (I went back and forth only between <= 50 and < 50 and > 50 and >= 50) and wrote the post. Now, both scripts suddenly work. Difference is that I actually wrote the script before the restart (where madVR changed the status of checked/unchecked all the time) and played some files while writing it. Now I didn´t change anything in the scripting fields, except for cutting/pasting and playing a sample file. There still must be a bug, but I cannot seem to reproduce it now.

Now I know how you felt, since bugs in 0.87.4 are a pain to reproduce. So many useful features.

[DragonQ]

Please STOP saying that!! I already corrected you in this post:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1664877&postcount=22144
Just because it's not that demanding for you on your rig doesn't mean it isn't in general, which you seem to admit in your next sentence:

The cost of Error Diffusion seems to differ a lot, depending on the exact settings (e.g. Smooth Motion FRC increases it a lot), the GPU, the monitor resoultion and frame rate. I can use it without any problems on my PC, with an HD7770, when playing back 1080p24 content without smooth motion FRC.
Exactly. Smooth Motion seems very popular with PC monitor users, yes? IIRC even the best Intel CPUs can't use it and even with your decent AMD card you can't use it with Smooth Motion, right? Dunno about nVidia. Surely that leaves a minority of hardware combinations where it would be feasible? Maybe we have a different definition of "demanding". I forgot about the new profiles though, I suppose they mean more people can use it for some video types.

The exact circumstances when it consumes how much have yet to be fully understood. It's too early to draw conclusions, especially such general unspecific onces as you just did (again).
I didn't conclude anything madshi, I used the word suggest.

[cyberbeing]

Relatively speaking, the OpenCL error-diffusion dither has the same cost at 1080p 24hz as Jinc4|AR Luma + Jinc4|AR Chroma 1280x720 -> 1920x1080 scaling + Random Dither. Overall I'd say it's probably the second most expensive thing in madVR behind NNEDI3 now, considering it's a couple ms slower than NNEDI3|16 1280x720 -> 2560x1440 display. At least that's the case with my GTX 770.Is that with smooth motion FRC enabled? That is quite important to note, because it increases the cost of Error diffusion by a factor of about 2.5x.

Smooth motion disabled. I believe I was comparing total GPU utilization, rather than render times.

Why did I care about GPU load measurements instead of madVR render times? I was in the process of tuning madVR's OpenCL settings to a level of heat, power draw, noise, and quality which I found acceptable for general use.

Currently I'm doing Error diffusion in RGB. Maybe doing it in YCbCr would produce nicer results, I'm not sure. Other than that I don't have an algorithm which would spreads errors over multiple color channels. All the algorithms I know strictly work on one channel at a time, only.

That's unfortunate. It may be worth trying it on YCbCr, or maybe even better converting RGB -> L*a*b* channels and doing error-diffusion dither on that.

[leeperry]

If PotP disables Aero behind madVR's back, that could eventually cause trouble, I don't know. I don't like it if media players try to be clever. Video playback is madVR's job, and PotP should the hell stay out of madVR's business...

Disabling Aero in madVR should not stop FSE mode from working. Maybe it collides with what PotP does, I don't know. I've not heard of such problems from MPC-HC users. Maybe you could double check with MPC-HC, just to be sure it's not media player related?
I've decided to disable Aero altogether as I don't care for Aero peek or tearing with windowed videos and yet the problem remains.

Basically, if I set mVR to automatically roll refresh rates when playback starts then everything's fine but if I set it to roll refresh rates when going FS then FSE is more likely to fail. Actually I can easily reproduce the problem if I wait for mVR's OSD to appear and instantly switch to FS.....then I get this in mVR's logs:
00003601 Render COsd::DisplayMessage(self: 0C9D1FB8, message: exclusive mode failed, milliseconds: 2000)
00003601 Render CQueue::IsStillImage();
00003601 Render CQueue::IsRunGraphWhenQueueFull(self: 0C9F4188) -> no
00003601 Render CQueue::IsStillImage() -> no
00003601 Render COsd::DisplayMessage(self: 0C9D1FB8) -> +
00003601 Render CDirect3D::ResetDevice(self: 0C9D01E0) -> switching to fullscreen failed (8876086c)

I've taken the liberty of uploading some working and failing logs at PotP+mVR.rar (864 KB) (https://mega.co.nz/#!e8ITzCKD!4ZXGf5Xll20dcsRH5mJq8iXouvyIbeWlaYqzaS4FkbE)

I've tried hard but I can't get MPC-HC to fail.

This does not sound like a new bug in v0.87.4, and that's all I care about atm. Also, most other users don't seem to have the problem you're describing. Not sure where it comes from.

This worked perfectly fine on XP with 0.86.9, the same latest stable build of PotP and the newest AMD drivers :(

I wouldn't know whether it's a new problem as I only migrated from XP a few days ago and I don't think there are many mVR users here on d9 who run the same W7SP1 / PotP with its GUI set to D3D / HD7850 combination and set FSE to trigger when going FS.

I don't think I need BFI. I don't plan to actually use the monitor for real movie watching, just as a monitor, and of course for madVR development testing. For that the monitor needs to support all features I need for testing, but it doesn't actually need to have a good quality video playback. It should have good quality monitor properties, though.

Well, I think the BenQ GW2760HS might be right up your alley......it's so easy on the eyes, just amazing. And its 72/75Hz are smooth as butter. It would also supposedly support even more(the GW2760HM will go right up to 1080p@85Hz over SL-DVI) if you apply this hack: http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-AMD-ATI-Pixel-Clock-Patcher

Finding a 32" 3D capable TV that will do 4:4:4 at all refresh rates will take a lot of trial & error IMHO.

[Andrey /MAG/]

nnedi3 doubling makes picture very dark when I use the last NVIDIA WHQL driver 332.
I have tested it on Quadro 600 and on GTX 660 Ti.

http://i.imgur.com/cP2qErG.gif

[asmo42]

You probably only have enabled NNEDI3 doubling for luma, right? In that case the chroma channels are upscaled using the "image upscaling" algorithm. That's the explanation for what you're seeing.
You're right that's it. I was under the impression that if I did luma doubling beyond the output resolution it would be the "chroma upscaling" setting that controlled all the chroma upscaling and the "image upscaling" setting wouldn't have any effect. But I realize now that's not how it works. After re-reading the thread again I saw the quote below which explains everything. Sorry for taking up your time.

The "chroma upscaling" settings are only for 4:2:0/4:2:2 to 4:4:4 conversion, for nothing else. Once 4:4:4 is reached, all other scaling operations are decided by "image doubling/upscaling/downscaling" options.

[sajara]

Madshi said that it wasn't all that demanding on his 7770(or was it 7790?) and I can confirm that it's a breeze on my factory overclocked 7850.

Just because it's not that demanding for you on your rig doesn't mean it isn't in general


I can only say that with my test video H264 720x404 25fps with HD5730M:

upscale settings
chroma: lanczos 3 taps
image: jinc 3 taps
debanding: low
fade: high

laptop monitor res:1366x768@60hz
FSE: on
smooth motion: off

random dithering: rendering 13.84ms/gpu 43%
OpenCL error diffusion: rendering 28.36ms / gpu 70%

I think it scales very nicely for a low end mobile GPU upscaling to a bit over HD res.

One thing I must note is that when I moved from Win 7 to 8 I noticed vast improvements on seeking times with lav+madvr and much better performance switching from FSE to desktop. Maybe and just maybe that can make a difference in overall performance.

[JarrettH]

Is it worth it to have debanding on the low setting all the time? I don't watch animation very much, just good quality films. I can think of instances where I might have seen banding (light sources, logo fades), but it wasn't that severe

[cyberbeing]

When playing around with the NNEDI3 doubling on 720p anime viewed at 1080p, I came to the conclusion that 32 neurons is not worthwhile. You don't get a big step-up in edge quality from 16 neurons until you use 64 neurons.

That said, I recommend not to go lower than 32 neurons for luma upscaling, because 16 neurons leaves too many artifacts in the image for my taste with *some* videos.
....
I wouldn't go lower than 16 for doubling, unless your GPU absolutely can't handle 32 neurons and you still prefer NNEDI3 with 16 neurons over Jinc/Lanczos.

But this interests me. Could you expand on the *some* videos which have artifacts using NNEDI3 16 neurons? Better yet, take a PNG screenshot of the source video at original resolution so I can test myself in madVR.

Does source resolution and quality matter? Have you actually see these artifacts doing 1280x720 -> 2560x1440 or 1920x1080 -> 3840x2160 scaling?

In my tests I've found little reason to enable NNEDI3 for the chroma channels. So I would recommend to leave the right side of the image doubling settings page unchecked.

My testing agrees with this. NNEDI3 image doubling for chroma doesn't seem to be worth it, at least until you've hit at least 64 neurons for luma doubling.

One addition though. The 'chroma upscaling' setting for NNEDI3 does have a noticeable impact on chroma quality, especially when dealing with DVD resolution content and below. I'd consider it worthwhile for at least SD content if you can afford it.

[XMonarchY]

No, it's an added cost.
Open GPU-Z. If OpenCL is not checked, then you've broken OpenCL support in the driver.


You mean using previous version nvopencl.dll with newer drivers will make OpenCL box un-ticked, right? Because with 344.67 drivers with 344.67 nvopencl.dll files my box IS ticked, but black screen goes black.

I wonder if its possible to edit that file verificaiton you are talking about. Just how deeply are OpenCL drivers integrated with regular drivers? I'm sure with some time and patience its possible to force drivers to use the older nvopencl.dll files...

[Audionut]

Well I was getting by with just an Intel i7 2600k with onboard GPU, until all these new features turned up.
Turns out I was actually getting the odd frame drop with none of the quality stuff turned on, resizing all being done as bilinear and using a 3dlut as described here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1471169/madvr-argyllcms
I was even using a heap of the quality tradeoffs.

Bit the bullet and got an HD 7790.

Now I have none of the quality tradeoffs enabled, debanding enabled, NNEDI3 (32 neurons) chroma upscaling and it purrs like a kitten. This is in 24.976 playback as I prefer the odd motion judder to the current smooth motion algorithms.

One thing I am not entirely certain of, the rendering times drop when I output 16bit 4:4:4 from LAV, I assume this is because LAV is doing some of the processing? I also assume it's best to just output 8bit 4:2:0 from LAV and let mVR do all the grunt work?

edit: Ok seems better to output 4:2:0 from LAV and give control to mVR. What about the bit depth though?

[cyberbeing]

You mean using previous version nvopencl.dll with newer drivers will make OpenCL box un-ticked

Yes, that's correct.

I wonder if its possible to edit that file verificaiton you are talking about. Just how deeply are OpenCL drivers integrated with regular drivers? I'm sure with some time and patience its possible to force drivers to use the older nvopencl.dll files...

Who knows, but considering madshi has stated that OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop fails (black screen), while the OpenCL processing is actually successful, I'd be more suspect that the Direct3D driver is bugged rather then the OpenCL driver.

[The 8472]

That's probably due to the combination of using Smooth Motion FRC and Error diffusion. Using both means that Smooth Motion FRC increases the cost of Error diffusion, because Error diffusion must be applied to every output frame, and Smooth Motion FRC increases the output frames from 24fps to nearly 60fps. So basically Smooth Motion FRC means that the cost of Error diffusion increases by a factor of almost 2.5x. Yeah, I was just pointing out that high target resolutions + SM can make this quite expensive, since you seemed surprised by someone mentioning the high performance impact.


I don't think it's as high quality as error diffusion?Correct, I meant it as middle ground between random and error diffusion.

Currently I'm doing Error diffusion in RGB. Maybe doing it in YCbCr would produce nicer results Based on some toying around with imagemagick I think doing color reductions in L*a*b* or similar linear color spaces gives visually better results, but doing the dithering before non-linear colorspace transforms is difficult to get right.

I'm not sure. Other than that I don't have an algorithm which would spreads errors over multiple color channels. All the algorithms I know strictly work on one channel at a time, only. The find-closest-color step of the algorithm can be done based on colorspace-aware distance metrics, but that requires iterative searches. That's probably prohibitively expensive to do in realtime.

[turbojet]

madshi: Now knowing that SM doesn't work well in window mode, although it's worked fine up until now. I'm trying to set a profile to use overlay only when using potplayer otherwise window. if (mediaPlayer = "F:\Tools\PotPlayer\PotPlayerMini.exe") "overlay" else "window" is what I've put but it always chooses window. Also tried "PotPlayermini.exe" and "Potplayer" any ideas?

Does your GTX 650 drop frames when using nnedi3 from 720p to 1080? It does here but can't figure out why, gpu load is fine and SD -> 1080 works fine with about the same gpu load.

Andrey /MAG/: you need to downgrade to 327 drivers.

[omarank]

Are we talking forced film mode? With forced film mode disabled, deintFps will be around 50.0 for PAL content.

Although I have set forced film mode, but that doesn't seem to be related to my problem. Here I am talking about a profiling script for smooth motion. Yes, with DXVA deinterlacing, deintFps will 50.0 for PAL content but for 50 fps content I would like to enable smooth motion. I don't want it to be enabled for still images which LAV output as 25 fps content.

As you said that you couldn't confirm the bug which I reported, I wrote this script which can perhaps let you reproduce the bug with smooth motion profiling.


The algorithm itself seems to be quite fast. About 2.5ms per 1080p frame on my HD7770. The majority of the cost comes from using OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop, at least when using AMD. On Intel GPUs interop is almost free, but the Intel GPU itself is rather slow with OpenCL. I don't about NVidia.

Now I have a very strong urge to make this request to you even though you have stated that you would be sticking to OpenCL for all compute related things. Could you please consider doing an alternative CUDA implementation *ONLY* for error diffusion (for the rest of the things OpenCL is fine)? With CUDA implementation, perhaps nvidia users with moderate GPU can also use error diffusion.

[drew_afx]

source is 1080p 23.976fps
no hardware decoding (avcodec active in Lav Video Decoder), outputs 8bit NV12 4:2:0
no processing
chroma upscaling: Jinc3/AR
no image doubling
image upscaling: Jinc3/AR
image downscaling: Catmull-Rom/AR,LL
delay playback start until render queue is full, everything else unchecked
CPU queue size: 8
GPU queue size: 8
windowed mode backbuffers: 4
no smooth motion

GPU used is GeForce 650 Ti Boost GDDR5 on PCI-E 3.0x16
Clock speed Core/Memory 1032MHz(1136MHz @boost) / 1502MHz
Quick look at OpenCL benchmark results (650 Ti Boost , Radeon HD 7770)
Luxmark 334 score , 789 score
RatGPU 73.20 sec , 101.37 sec
Bitmining 55.8 MHash/s , 170.6 MHash/s
GPU Caps - PostFX 93 FPS , 145 FPS

read avg rendering time when the value was stable for about 10sec

<540p> - 518400 pixels
6.95ms w/o opencl error diffusion
9.35ms with opencl error diffusion

2.40ms diff

4.63ns per pixel

<1080p> - 2073600 pixels
5.53ms w/o opencl error diffusion
13.45ms with opencl error diffusion

7.92ms diff

3.82ns per pixel

<2160p> - 8294400 pixels
23.77ms w/o opencl error diffusion
50.86ms with opencl error diffusion

27.09ms diff

3.266ns per pixel

[The 8472]

http://puu.sh/6EgZs.jpg

This is without error diffusion.

Something tells me AMD performance isn't nearly this bad. I don't see how I could ever do 4k upscale like this at anything above 16 neurons. Is this expected? I'd be willing to bet, from the reports in this thread, that AMD performance is much better.
Not trying to complain at all, but I love NNEDI3 and I'd also love to always use it for upscaling at at least 32 neurons, and I feel like a 680 should be able to do so much more.

1080p30 -(nnedi)-> 2160p30 -(downscaler)-> 1440p30 actually is more work than direct doubling to 4k.

You could pick nearest neighbor as downscaler to get an approximate idea how it would perform on a 4k screen. You also have to keep in mind that it first needs to do a 4:4:4 conversion and then upscale the chroma separately too. That's lots of data shuffling involved there.

I can get nnedi with 32 neurons and 1080p24 -> 4k -> 1440p24 to work on my GTX670 - barely so - by bumping up the rendering queues and skimping on all the other scaling algorithms.

Next-generation cards might be able to handle 4k scaling reasonably well. And the generation after that maybe for HFR content.

That or pester madshi to get SLI working / distribute workload among devices.

[baii]

For 720p and 1080p content on 1440p monitor, is needi3 better ("sharper" w/o unwanted artifacts) than jinc3 in most situation?

Considering switch to AMD if so as AMD perform 2-3x better at same price point according to the benchmark result from nnedi3 opencl thread.

[XMonarchY]

Yes, that's correct.



Who knows, but considering madshi has stated that OpenCL <-> D3D9 interop fails (black screen), while the OpenCL processing is actually successful, I'd be more suspect that the Direct3D driver is bugged rather then the OpenCL driver.


I think using Direct3D .dll files from a previous set could be quite problematic and break way more things... but just in case - which .dll files control D3D9???

They say nVidia is aware of the issue - is that true? Since when has it been aware of the bug? Any updates on when it will be fixed?

[Ver Greeneyes]

Hard to say how monolithic Nvidia's driver team is, but someone at Nvidia was informed about the problem about a day before the forum went down, so 3-4 days I'd say.

[huhn]

No, some Philips TV don't even support 4:4:4 http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/philips-55pfl8008-201309193320.htm (see the benchmark results)

Have you considered this one? http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk /news/kdl32w653-201310313413.htm (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kdl32w653-201310313413.htm) It supports 4:4:4 at every refresh rates and it has everything except 3D, I don't know if it's a requirement for you.

3d is a must have and should work with intel, nvidia and amd.

the pf8008 doesn't have pc-mode in his manuel and that's not a cheap model...

the pf4508 is the smallest Philips with pc-mode and 3d but i'm not sure anymore...

[Gagorian]

Is it normal that OpenCL error diffusion increases average rendering time 3x? My GPU is a r9 270 (basically a 7870?) and using latest madVR.

I tried playing a few 1080p24 standard x264 blu-ray movies presented at 23.976 Hz.

Average rendering time (using Jinc 3 AR for both Luma and Chroma, Debanding low, all trade quality for performance options except OpenCL error diffusion disabled) was around 8-10 ms. The rendering time is about the same for 720p movies, so scaling for instance is rather cheap even with Jinc 3 AR.

With OpenCL error diffusion the average rendering time was raised to around 28-30 ms.

Should it really be that demanding?


Is smooth motion on or off? What is your display resolution? On my PC the cost of Error diffusion seems to be quite a bit lower than on yours, even though I only have an 7770. Is your display resolution much higher than 1080p, maybe?


Smooth motion is off (like I said presented at 23.976 Hz) and display resolution is 1080p. Newest catalyst drivers and AMD APP SDK 2.9 installed.

[Qaq]

I'm thinking of OpenCL GPGPU benchmarks: http://forums.aida64.com/topic/1539-opencl-gpgpu-benchmarks/
Worth it?

[madshi]

Have you considered this one? http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk /news/kdl32w653-201310313413.htm (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kdl32w653-201310313413.htm) It supports 4:4:4 at every refresh rates and it has everything except 3D, I don't know if it's a requirement for you.
3D is a key requirement, and it must work with all GPUs, not be an NVidia only solution. How am I supposed to ever add 3D support to madVR if my development monitor can't do 3D with all GPUs?

This is without error diffusion.

Something tells me AMD performance isn't nearly this bad. I don't see how I could ever do 4k upscale like this at anything above 16 neurons. Is this expected? I'd be willing to bet, from the reports in this thread, that AMD performance is much better.
Not trying to complain at all, but I love NNEDI3 and I'd also love to always use it for upscaling at at least 32 neurons, and I feel like a 680 should be able to do so much more.
Which scaling algorithms are you using in the image upscaling and image downscaling pages? See my recommendations in the v0.87.4 announcement post. That might allow this to work on your GPU. If all else fails you could check whether maybe 16 neurons still produces a better image than not using NNEDI3 at all.

I tried to narrow it down further, it seems to be related to the deinterlacing/NNEDI3 settings (the clip itself is interlaced) and madVR uses IVTC/deinterlacing for it. Please always test with filmrez.ts.

So, for some reason NNEDI3 triggers that same problem, when deinterlacing is at some specific settings.

Please play around with the following:

1) automatically activate deinterlacing when needed (checked)
1.1) if in doubt, deactivate deinterlacing (checked)
- don´t check anything else in the deinterlacing tab -
2) enable NNEDI3 chroma upscaling
3) if you now suddenly check automatic source type in the deinterlacing tab, the bug goes away (grey levels instead of yellow)
4) If there´s no bug at this stage, enable/disable NNEDI3 chroma upsampling again
5) If there´s no bug at this stage, enable/disable deinterlacing again
I've already ripped out the NVidia GPU in my development PC again. You know, it totally refuses to even acknowledge the precense of my LCD monitor, when connecting via DVI, while my Intel and AMD GPUs have no problems with that. FWIW, the NVidia does like my projector, when using DVI. I have to use VGA connection to get an image with the NVidia 650 on my LCD monitor. I can put the NVidia GPU back in, but doing so costs time and effort. So I'd need a 100% sure way to reproduce any specific problem.

So can anybody else with an NVidia GPU confirm/deny iSunrise's problem?

Just because it's not that demanding for you on your rig doesn't mean it isn't in general
Correct.

even with your decent AMD card you can't use it with Smooth Motion, right?
No, that's not right at all. Actually I've just tested the following:

- Blu-Ray 1080p24 playback
- tested on 1080p projector @ 60Hz, 100% view
- tested on 1680x1050 monitor @ 60Hz, downscaled
- NNEDI3 chroma upscaling, 16 neurons
- Catmull-Rom AR image downscaling with linear light
- image debanding with gradient angle detection
- error diffusion
- smooth motion FRC with 24fps @ 60Hz

Basically all "trade quality for performance" options unchecked. Highest possible settings/algorithms everywhere (!!), including debanding and smooth motion FRC. It plays perfectly smooth on both my projector and my LCD monitor. And this is the main purpose of madVR: Playing Blu-Rays perfectly.

Yes, rendering times are quite high, around 40ms actually, so it was really close, but it worked. And yes, using a higher res monitor would increase the cost so much that it would not run smoothly, anymore. So Error Diffusion can't always be used, it does require a decent GPU, and it increases rendering times quite noticeably, but it *can* be used just fine, even with Smooth Motion turned on, plus NNEDI3 chroma upscaling, debanding and all the bells and whistles, with a mid-range GPU like my HD7770.

FYI, when switching my projector to 24Hz (so Smooth Motion turned itself off automatically), rendering times with the same maxed out settings as above were 29ms. So I still have about 11-12ms headroom for future algorithms.

Dunno about nVidia. Surely that leaves a minority of hardware combinations where it would be feasible? Maybe we have a different definition of "demanding". I forgot about the new profiles though, I suppose they mean more people can use it for some video types.

I didn't conclude anything madshi, I used the word suggest.
Please understand that it's frustrating to me if you suggest that one of the new features in madVR might be unusable for the majority of users.

That's unfortunate. It may be worth trying it on YCbCr, or maybe even better converting RGB -> L*a*b* channels and doing error-diffusion dither on that.
Actually my idea doesn't work. I could apply Error Diffusion in YCbCr color space, but that's not what madVR outputs. I'd have to convert back to RGB afterwards. And after the conversion I'd again have RGB floating point data. So I'd have to apply Error Diffusion yet again.

Basically, if I set mVR to automatically roll refresh rates when playback starts then everything's fine but if I set it to roll refresh rates when going FS then FSE is more likely to fail. Actually I can easily reproduce the problem if I wait for mVR's OSD to appear and instantly switch to FS.....then I get this in mVR's logs:
00003601 Render COsd::DisplayMessage(self: 0C9D1FB8, message: exclusive mode failed, milliseconds: 2000)
00003601 Render CQueue::IsStillImage();
00003601 Render CQueue::IsRunGraphWhenQueueFull(self: 0C9F4188) -> no
00003601 Render CQueue::IsStillImage() -> no
00003601 Render COsd::DisplayMessage(self: 0C9D1FB8) -> +
00003601 Render CDirect3D::ResetDevice(self: 0C9D01E0) -> switching to fullscreen failed (8876086c)

I've taken the liberty of uploading some working and failing logs at PotP+mVR.rar (864 KB) (https://mega.co.nz/#!e8ITzCKD!4ZXGf5Xll20dcsRH5mJq8iXouvyIbeWlaYqzaS4FkbE)

I've tried hard but I can't get MPC-HC to fail.
Well, it seems to have something to do with what PotP does. You could try the various PotP settings to see if any of those fixes the problem. Maybe those new D3D9 PotP options to render the GUI in FSE mode is causing this problem? I don't know. Since this only seems to occur with PotP, I don't know if I can do much to fix it. This might be PotP's job to fix. In any case, I currently don't have the time to look into this.

Well, I think the BenQ GW2760HS might be right up your alley......
I don't see any indication that it supports 3D? And if it does, doesn't BenQ usually do that NVidia only 3D stuff? I need 3D to work with all GPUs.

<sigh> Finding a usable PC monitor for my needs seems to be really hard... :(

nnedi3 doubling makes picture very dark when I use the last NVIDIA WHQL driver 332.
Please re-read the v0.87.4 announcement post carefully.

I can only say that with my test video H264 720x404 25fps with HD5730M:

upscale settings
chroma: lanczos 3 taps
image: jinc 3 taps
debanding: low
fade: high

laptop monitor res:1366x768@60hz
FSE: on
smooth motion: off

random dithering: rendering 13.84ms/gpu 43%
OpenCL error diffusion: rendering 28.36ms / gpu 70%

I think it scales very nicely for a low end mobile GPU upscaling to a bit over HD res.
Thanks. Of course having Smooth Motion FRC off and having a relatively low display resolution helps. To be honest, in your situation I think I'd prefer using Smooth Motion FRC over Error Diffusion, if you can only use one of both features. But it's good to know that Error Diffusion might still be fast enough in some situations even on mobile GPUs.

Is it worth it to have debanding on the low setting all the time? I don't watch animation very much, just good quality films. I can think of instances where I might have seen banding (light sources, logo fades), but it wasn't that severe
It's your decision, really. Maybe if you find a movie scene where you can see banding, you could check whether debanding would help in that scene. Probably on "low" setting it might only reduce the problem, but not fully remove it, but it depends on the situation...

When playing around with the NNEDI3 doubling on 720p anime viewed at 1080p, I came to the conclusion that 32 neurons is not worthwhile. You don't get a big step-up in edge quality from 16 neurons until you use 64 neurons.

But this interests me. Could you expand on the *some* videos which have artifacts using NNEDI3 16 neurons? Better yet, take a PNG screenshot of the source video at original resolution so I can test myself in madVR.
Simple test: Use MS Paint, light gray background. Some diagonal black lines on top. Upscale this with 16 neurons. Ouch.

Generally, with some of the usual resampling test images, I've found that every step up in neurons improves quality a little bit. With some test images one specific step might seem bigger than another. I think it depends on the exact edge angles etc.

One addition though. The 'chroma upscaling' setting for NNEDI3 does have a noticeable impact on chroma quality, especially when dealing with DVD resolution content and below. I'd consider it worthwhile for at least SD content if you can afford it.
I can imagine that it could help for some DVDs. At least there it should be much more useful (and less power hungry, too) compared to using it for the chroma channels in the image doubling settings page.

Bit the bullet and got an HD 7790.

Now I have none of the quality tradeoffs enabled, debanding enabled, NNEDI3 (32 neurons) chroma upscaling and it purrs like a kitten. This is in 24.976 playback as I prefer the odd motion judder to the current smooth motion algorithms.

One thing I am not entirely certain of, the rendering times drop when I output 16bit 4:4:4 from LAV, I assume this is because LAV is doing some of the processing? I also assume it's best to just output 8bit 4:2:0 from LAV and let mVR do all the grunt work?
You should check all the output format options in LAV. That allows LAV to output the decoded video in its native format, which is the best solution. LAV can do chroma upscaling and it can also "increase" the bitdepth (it just adds some zeros), but madVR can do all that in better quality.

If you send 4:4:4 from LAV, madVR doesn't have to do chroma upscaling, so the GPU has less work to do. That explains the drop in the rendering times.

Yeah, I was just pointing out that high target resolutions + SM can make this quite expensive
True.

madshi: Now knowing that SM doesn't work well in window mode, although it's worked fine up until now.
Well, it works, as long as you keep the rendering times low enough (lower than ~ 16ms for 60Hz).

if (mediaPlayer = "F:\Tools\PotPlayer\PotPlayerMini.exe") "overlay" else "window" is what I've put but it always chooses window. Also tried "PotPlayermini.exe" and "Potplayer" any ideas?
The path is removed from madVR. Use only the exe file name.

Does your GTX 650 drop frames when using nnedi3 from 720p to 1080?
Haven't tested that.

Although I have set forced film mode, but that doesn't seem to be related to my problem. Here I am talking about a profiling script for smooth motion. Yes, with DXVA deinterlacing, deintFps will 50.0 for PAL content but for 50 fps content I would like to enable smooth motion. I don't want it to be enabled for still images which LAV output as 25 fps content.

As you said that you couldn't confirm the bug which I reported, I wrote this script which can perhaps let you reproduce the bug with smooth motion profiling.
I'm sorry, but I don't really have the time to test "perhaps" bugs. If you can make a step-by-step guide to reproducing a specific problem, ideally with a small video sample to help, then I'd be happy to look into this.

Now I have a very strong urge to make this request to you even though you have stated that you would be sticking to OpenCL for all compute related things. Could you please consider doing an alternative CUDA implementation *ONLY* for error diffusion (for the rest of the things OpenCL is fine)? With CUDA implementation, perhaps nvidia users with moderate GPU can also use error diffusion.
No, sorry. It's not just the kernel which would need to be converted. I'd have to implement a full blown CUDA framework in madVR with all the interop stuff etc. That's quite a lot of work. I do plan to look into DirectCompute as a possible OpenCL alternative/replacement, though. It's supported by all GPUs.

GPU used is GeForce 650 Ti Boost GDDR5 on PCI-E 3.0x16
Clock speed Core/Memory 1032MHz(1136MHz @boost) / 1502MHz
Quick look at OpenCL benchmark results (650 Ti Boost , Radeon HD 7770)
Luxmark 334 score , 789 score
RatGPU 73.20 sec , 101.37 sec
Bitmining 55.8 MHash/s , 170.6 MHash/s
GPU Caps - PostFX 93 FPS , 145 FPS

read avg rendering time when the value was stable for about 10sec

<540p> - 518400 pixels
6.95ms w/o opencl error diffusion
9.35ms with opencl error diffusion

2.40ms diff

4.63ns per pixel

<1080p> - 2073600 pixels
5.53ms w/o opencl error diffusion
13.45ms with opencl error diffusion

7.92ms diff

3.82ns per pixel

<2160p> - 8294400 pixels
23.77ms w/o opencl error diffusion
50.86ms with opencl error diffusion

27.09ms diff

3.266ns per pixel
Thanks. Makes a lot of sense. 8ms cost on a 1080p display is more than I would have liked, but I believe it's still very much in the "usable" area. After all, if you have a 1080p@24Hz capable display, you can spend up to 41ms on each frame. So 8ms is not great, but "ok", IMHO.

For 720p and 1080p content on 1440p monitor, is needi3 better ("sharper" w/o unwanted artifacts) than jinc3 in most situation?

Considering switch to AMD if so as AMD perform 2-3x better at same price point according to the benchmark result from nnedi3 opencl thread.
It's a little bit a matter of taste. Look at the v0.87.0 announcement post and the post after that to read about advantages and disadvantages of NNEDI compared to Jinc.

I wouldn't replace the GPU right now. madVR v0.87.x is just out for a week now. Give it a bit of time. Yes, AMD seems to have an advantage in OpenCL performance. But I plan to try DirectCompute, maybe it will close the gap. I don't know...

the pf8008 doesn't have pc-mode in his manuel and that's not a cheap model...

the pf4508 is the smallest Philips with pc-mode and 3d but i'm not sure anymore...
Hmmmm... That might be an option, will look into it, thanks!

[madshi]

Smooth motion is off (like I said presented at 23.976 Hz) and display resolution is 1080p. Newest catalyst drivers and AMD APP SDK 2.9 installed.
Weird, seems the cost for Error Diffusion is more than twice as high on your PC compared to mine, although your GPU should be around twice as fast as mine. I have no explanation for that right now.

[vivan]

1. Anybody else seeing this have Optimus (generally on laptops) Nvidia / Intel setup? I don't really think a GT 650M is fast enough for most of the OpenCL features anyway, but I want to confirm if it doesn't work for anyone else either or it's just me being dumb somewhere or somehow.I have i5-2410M + 540M. It works fine (I have to force mpc-hc to use nVidia GPU by renaming it), however 540M barely can hadle luma doubling on SD 24 fps video with 16 neurouns.
I'm on some ancient drivers (310), though.

[leeperry]

Well, it seems to have something to do with what PotP does. You could try the various PotP settings to see if any of those fixes the problem. Maybe those new D3D9 PotP options to render the GUI in FSE mode is causing this problem? I don't know. Since this only seems to occur with PotP, I don't know if I can do much to fix it. This might be PotP's job to fix. In any case, I currently don't have the time to look into this.
Using its 2D GUI doesn't change anything and making bug reports to PotP's coder needs easy to reproduce steps...all I'm gonna end up with is "use othar player!!!!!!".

Basically if I switch to FS before or one second after mVR's OSD showed up then it's all good apparently. I've already looked into PotP's configuration but couldn't find the culprit.

I don't see any indication that it supports 3D? And if it does, doesn't BenQ usually do that NVidia only 3D stuff? I need 3D to work with all GPUs.
If you want 3D in a TV you'll more than likely won't get 4:4:4 at all refresh rates and if you want 3D in a PC monitor you'll get a crummy TN panel. You'll have to go through a lot of trial & error in order to find what you want if it even exists IMHO and personally I'd go for the GW2760HS for coding as it's so easy on the eyes together with a 32" 3D TV for testing.

All this said, the 2760HM would also embed their flicker-free stuff now and it was sold for pretty cheap on the EU BenQ webstore.

[turbojet]

Concerning 3D displays. Aren't these the requirements for each brand:
nvidia: requires nvidia 3d display, runs on hardware
ati: requires hd3d/tridef software, runs on 3rd party software
intel: requires hdmi 1.4, runs on intel software

If the information I gathered is correct, nvidia 3d vision hardware is what to look for when shopping for displays. ASUS VG248QE has it at a decent price and 144hz although it doesn't score great on picture quality. Does high refresh have developing benefit? If you are looking for HQ, PLS displays can be had pretty cheap and get great PQ reviews.

iSunrise clip looks the same to me whether nnedi3 or bicubic75 chroma upsample and no yellow tint. There's quite a difference between film and video mode though. This is with a 250.

PotPlayerMini.exe is the exe name but it doesn't work in that profile example. It works with mpc-hc and mpc-be, something with potplayermini.exe. In task manager and process explorer it shows as PotPlayerMini.exe, is there something else I should check?

I've been thinking that all the hardware I've ever connected to a tv has very little banding. After losslessly capturing the content whether it be bluray, dvd, cable or broadcast and played on the computer it has all sorts of banding in all players as long as there's no debanding enabled. Is there a reason PC's show so much banding while other hardware doesn't? Is it gpu related?

[madshi]

If you want 3D in a TV you'll more than likely won't get 4:4:4 at all refresh rates and if you want 3D in a PC monitor you'll get a crummy TN panel. You'll have to go through a lot of trial & error in order to find what you want if it even exists IMHO and personally I'd go for the GW2760HS for coding as it's so easy on the eyes together with a 32" 3D TV for testing.

All this said, the 2760HM would also embed their flicker-free stuff now and it was sold for pretty cheap on the EU BenQ webstore.
You mean I should buy *two* new display? Sorry, too expensive, and I don't have the space. The Philips 32PFL4508 is my current favorite. It supports 3D at least, and the manual suggests a PC mode, although I'm not 100% sure if it will support 4:4:4. But it might be worth a try.

Concerning 3D displays. Aren't these the requirements for each brand:
nvidia: requires nvidia 3d display, runs on hardware
ati: requires hd3d/tridef software, runs on 3rd party software
intel: requires hdmi 1.4, runs on intel software

If the information I gathered is correct, nvidia 3d vision hardware is what to look for when shopping for displays.
No. I'm not looking to play 3D games. I'm looking for HTPC Blu-Ray 3D playback on an HDMI 1.4 display. All AMD, NVidia and Intel GPUs support that (in theory at least). So I need an HDMI 1.4 3D capable display, which I can also use as my primary PC monitor, so it needs to support 4:4:4.

[Werewolfy]

You mean I should buy *two* new display? Sorry, too expensive, and I don't have the space. The Philips 32PFL4508 is my current favorite. It supports 3D at least, and the manual suggests a PC mode, although I'm not 100% sure if it will support 4:4:4. But it might be worth a try.


The Philips 32PFL4508 can be a good choice if chroma is not subsampled. It has an IPS Panel so contrast is about 1000:1 if it matters.

FWIW LG TV have also 4:4:4 support and at every refresh rates it seems. For example : LG 32LA620V. IPS Panel too.

If you can still find one, the SONY KDL-32HX755 does support 4:4:4 at every refresh rates and have 3D. VA Panel.

Samsung TV don't support 4:4:4 except in 60hz mode.

Here are all your options ;)

[Soukyuu]

Yes, smooth motion FRC is problematic in windowed mode. I've found that in windowed mode the max rendering times must be lower than the vsync time. Meaning with 60Hz, max rendering times must be smaller than 16.68ms. Otherwise playback will judder, even if no frame drops are recorded. In FSE mode, the situation is different. There rendering times only need to be smaller than the frame interval (e.g. 41.71ms for 24fps). There is probably nothing I can do about it. That's simply a limitation of D3D in windowed mode.Argh! This really deserves a note somewhere. My rendering times are around 40ms in windowed mode, so all this time I have been wasting my GPU processing power for smooth motion that didn't work? D:

Also, though I know you're not taking feature requests... could you please add chapter marks on the exclusive mode progress bar? You already seem to have the code to get them since the tray icon shows them, so it shouldn't take much time to add them onto the progress bar as well?

[Shiandow]

I've already ripped out the NVidia GPU in my development PC again. You know, it totally refuses to even acknowledge the precense of my LCD monitor, when connecting via DVI, while my Intel and AMD GPUs have no problems with that. FWIW, the NVidia does like my projector, when using DVI. I have to use VGA connection to get an image with the NVidia 650 on my LCD monitor. I can put the NVidia GPU back in, but doing so costs time and effort. So I'd need a 100% sure way to reproduce any specific problem.

So can anybody else with an NVidia GPU confirm/deny iSunrise's problem?


I was able to reproduce the same problem on an Nvidia GTX 560ti; enabling Nnedi3 chroma upscaling and deinterlacing at the same time makes the image yellow instead of gray.

[ryrynz]

Also, though I know you're not taking feature requests... could you please add chapter marks on the exclusive mode progress bar? You already seem to have the code to get them since the tray icon shows them, so it shouldn't take much time to add them onto the progress bar as well?

Madshi, do you have any intention of allowing chapter markers on the seekbar?

Asked before. Not planned for the near future.

Now one year later.. might be worth a shot. :D

[omarank]

I'm sorry, but I don't really have the time to test "perhaps" bugs. If you can make a step-by-step guide to reproducing a specific problem, ideally with a small video sample to help, then I'd be happy to look into this.


I think I didn't describe it clearly. I will make one last attempt:

Step 1: Create a profile group for smooth motion. In the profile auto select rules, paste this script

if (deintFps > 24.5) and (deintFps < 25.5) "Off"
else "On"


Step 2: Duplicate profile 1. So now you have profile 1 and profile 2. Rename profile 1 as "On" and profile 2 as "Off"

Step 3: In the "On" profile's smooth motion settings page, tick "enable smooth motion frame rate conversion" and check the option "only if there would be motion judder without it..."

Step 4: In the "Off" profile's smooth motion settings page, untick "enable smooth motion frame rate conversion"

Step 4: Set your display to 60Hz and play any progressive video with 29.97 fps or 30 fps or 60 fps, you will see smooth motion getting enabled (though it should not as per the settings).

[turbojet]

omarank: it should be using on profile, the only time it should be off is when fps = 24.51- 25.49 fps. A 25 fps video switches to off profile. However 29.97 and 59.94 fps videos at 60hz is disabled for me in this situation.

Soukyou: I agree there should be a note in the smooth motion page or something that recommends using overlay or fse instead of window mode. It probably would have negated most of the criticism when SM first came out and turn the current critics. I thought it was strange that it's always worked great on an old 1024x768 crt but some noticeable blending on a 1680x1050 lcd, window mode was why.

madshi: Did you confirm error diffusion + film mode = black screen while paused?

[madshi]

The Philips 32PFL4508 can be a good choice if chroma is not subsampled. It has an IPS Panel so contrast is about 1000:1 if it matters.

FWIW LG TV have also 4:4:4 support and at every refresh rates it seems. For example : LG 32LA620V. IPS Panel too.

If you can still find one, the SONY KDL-32HX755 does support 4:4:4 at every refresh rates and have 3D. VA Panel.

Samsung TV don't support 4:4:4 except in 60hz mode.

Here are all your options ;)
Thanks! Some more options, it seems. From the reviews it seems to me that Samsung has often problems with clouding, not sure if that limits the use as a PC monitor. Found less complaints about that in the Philips reviews. What is the latest judgement about IPS vs. VA? Will look at the LG and Sony models...

Argh! This really deserves a note somewhere. My rendering times are around 40ms in windowed mode, so all this time I have been wasting my GPU processing power for smooth motion that didn't work?
Actually, what I said might not be always true. Just tested it again on my PC, and now smooth motion FRC works fluidly here, even with rendering times of near 40ms. So I'm not sure what to say, anymore. I did have a situation where I had to lower rendering times below the VSync time (16ms) to make smooth motion FRC play smoothly. Maybe it depends on the OS and GPU? I don't really know...

I was able to reproduce the same problem on an Nvidia GTX 560ti; enabling Nnedi3 chroma upscaling and deinterlacing at the same time makes the image yellow instead of gray.
Thanks. So it only occurs with deint + Nnedi3 chroma upscaling at the same time, correct? Is that video mode deint or forced film mode?

I think I didn't describe it clearly. I will make one last attempt:

Step 1: Create a profile group for smooth motion. In the profile auto select rules, paste this script

if (deintFps > 24.5) and (deintFps < 25.5) "Off"
else "On"

Step 2: Duplicate profile 1. So now you have profile 1 and profile 2. Rename profile 1 as "On" and profile 2 as "Off"

Step 3: In the "On" profile's smooth motion settings page, tick "enable smooth motion frame rate conversion" and check the option "only if there would be motion judder without it..."

Step 4: In the "Off" profile's smooth motion settings page, untick "enable smooth motion frame rate conversion"

Step 4: Set your display to 60Hz and play any progressive video with 29.97 fps or 30 fps or 60 fps, you will see smooth motion getting enabled (though it should not as per the settings).
60 fps video at 60hz is disabled for me in this situation.
Same here as turbojet. Playing a 60fps file with your profile setup activates the "On" profile, but Smooth Motion FRC according to the debug OSD is turned off.

Does Smooth Motion FRC disable on your PC if you remove the profiles and just switch it to "only if there would be judder..."?

madshi: Did you confirm error diffusion + film mode = black screen while paused?
Doesn't happen on my PC.

[leeperry]

Catmull-Rom AR image downscaling with linear light
So this is the absolute best for downscaling NNEDI?

Well, it seems to have something to do with what PotP does. You could try the various PotP settings to see if any of those fixes the problem.
I learned the hard way a few years ago with VST plugins in ffdshow audio that programming boils down to doing things in the right order, ask for something to be done too early or too late and there will be no dice :o

Letting mVR roll refresh rates when playback starts works like a treat so I've set PotP to instantly go FS when playback starts and things are actually better than ever as I don't even need to go FS manually and FSE would especially not appear to fail either. It even leaves time for my TV to resync while PotP works on starting playback, allowing Reclock to kick in at that....."There's no such thing as problems, Mr. Green, only situations." ;)

To be perfectly clear when it failed it would never work again in the current session, mVR assumed that FSE would never work and would never try it again.

Thanks! Some more options, it seems. From the reviews it seems to me that Samsung has often problems with clouding, not sure if that limits the use as a PC monitor. Found less complaints about that in the Philips reviews. What is the latest judgement about IPS vs. VA? Will look at the LG and Sony models...
FWIR clouding become a problem starting at 40" and IME all 46/50" suffer more or less from it(sometimes in outrageous proportions), but it'll take some seriously bad luck to get strong clouding <40" IME.

You see a lot of ppl complaining about clouding on Sammies because they sell far more than all the others, as simple as that IMHO and the manufacturing processes have been continuously improving so what was true a few years back simply isn't anymore.

Of course the less contrasty the panel the less clouding will be a problem and on a 600:1 IPS clouding will hardly ever be a problem.

I couldn't find translations on their english speaking digitalversus.com sister website but here are a few interviews with TV makers RMA departments regarding clouding that might -or might not- make sense after being automatically translated: LG (http://www.lesnumeriques.com/tv-televiseur/enquete-sur-clouding-tv-lg-repond-en-1er-n28224.html) / Sharp (http://www.lesnumeriques.com/tv-televiseur/sharp-repond-a-nos-questions-sur-clouding-tv-n28831.html) / Panasonic (http://www.lesnumeriques.com/clouding-version-un-constructeur-n19395.html) / Philips (http://www.lesnumeriques.com/tv-televiseur/clouding-philips-ne-repondra-pas-n28589.html)

Long story short, the lower the CR the less clouding will be a problem and one of the major reason was that the pressure put on the panels wasn't homogenous and LCD looks nasty if you pinch it too hard...so the newer the TV the less prone to suffer from clouding as the manufacturing processes have improved. It should also be noted that these are assembled by modern slaves in poor countries so YMMV of course.

You mean I should buy *two* new display? Sorry, too expensive, and I don't have the space. The Philips 32PFL4508 is my current favorite. It supports 3D at least, and the manual suggests a PC mode, although I'm not 100% sure if it will support 4:4:4. But it might be worth a try.

My point is that this monitor is unmatched for office work IMHO: http://www.amazon.de/dp/B00AQBWNXA

Their flicker-free backlight is a God send and you'll feel far less tired, especially as you would appear to currently use a PWM monitor....the difference will more than likely impress you. Amazon provide a TOTL money-back warranty anyway.

Sammy's BFI almost feels as comfy but it's 4:2:2 only so computer fonts look pretty funky, OTOH LCD without BFI looks eye scorching to me....BenQ are taking the market by storm with their flicker-free 72/75Hz capable monitors IMO, EIZO must be feeling the winds of change.

BTW, I briefly tried this one that was a real POS: http://www.digitalversus.com/tv-television/sony-bravia-kdl-32w653a-p15225/test.html#full-review

And quite frankly, I would never buy a TV that comes with wifi.....call me old school if you like but this proves me right: LG Smart TV spying, owner claims his USB filenames posted on LG servers (http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/lg-smart-tv-spying-owner-claims-his-usb-filenames-posted-lg-servers)

You're working on the industry leading VR, the last thing you want is script kiddies in a white van standing in front of your porch getting into your files :D

Getting a 3D TV with 4:4:4 at all refresh rates and no wifi will be next to impossible to find IMO.

What would make the most sense to me would be to use a GW2760HM on your desk and hang whatever 3D capable 32/40" TV on the wall for tests purposes, so you could use them simultaneously in dual screen and instantly test IRL without leaving your development environment :cool:

PS: hah, that nails it hard: Samsung Smart TV a spy in the living room as webcam hack revealed (http://www.slashgear.com/samsung-smart-tv-a-spy-in-the-living-room-as-webcam-hack-revealed-02292655/)

[Andrey /MAG/]

madshi
Please re-read the v0.87.4 announcement post carefully
You have to downgrade to NVidia 327.23 drivers (or older) to make the OpenCL features work with NVidia
Thank you. I see.

[James Freeman]

For what its worth,

My current monitor is Asus VN279QLB. (http://www.asus.com/Monitors_Projectors/VN279QLB/)
Its the equivalent to the Benq GW2760HM (same AMVA+ panel).
Asus has more controllable overdrive levels than Benq, its very important to remove any inverse ghosting (not needed at slow 24fps = 41.7ms).
It also a a little better gamut (more accurate) compared to the GW2760HM, though does not cover 100% sRGB (like most WLED monitors).
It's also PWM free.
Contrast Ratio I have measured with my i1 Display Pro is around 2700:1 (after calibration).
Gamma is almost perfect 2.20 (before calibration).
Service/Factory Menu offers more control over the RGB gains for 6500K, 7500K, 9300K, sRGB preset.

After calibration with the i1, everything is tip-top.

The most important:
It can be overdriven to 50-75Hz no frame doubling/skipping.
No 24Hz... but 72Hz is three times more so it must be better. :D

The bad side:
Off center contrast shift (any VA panel including this one), so you have to sit straight ahead.

I still have my Dell U2410 which is IPS with 100% sRGB coverage, but its locked at 60Hz.

[Shiandow]

Thanks. So it only occurs with deint + Nnedi3 chroma upscaling at the same time, correct? Is that video mode deint or forced film mode?

It's only during video mode deinterlace. If I force film mode it goes away, if I then force video mode it's back again. So it only seems to occur when deinterlacing in video mode while using Nnedi3 chroma upscaling.

[ajp2k11]

Is NNEDI too demanding for my Radeon 6650M?

It plays most material fine with Jinc3/AR on both chroma and luma but with NNEDI and all other set to bilinear it's like watching a slideshow even with 16 neurons...

[Werewolfy]

Thanks! Some more options, it seems. From the reviews it seems to me that Samsung has often problems with clouding, not sure if that limits the use as a PC monitor. Found less complaints about that in the Philips reviews. What is the latest judgement about IPS vs. VA? Will look at the LG and Sony models...


Clouding is an issue with all brands but I agree with what's just said above, on a 32'' TV screen it's usually not an issue. You can also have banding or DSE that is very annoying so I recommend you to pick a store where you can return your TV screen. Again, it's usually not an issue with small TV screen but bad surprises happen. Honestly, I don't really know if one brand is better than another when we talk about uniformity.

IPS panels have poor contrast, max : 1000:1 so the picture is washed out and black level is very poor, it's more like grey. But viewing angles are generally wide.
VA have better contrast, between 2000:1 and 5000:1 and better motion resolution but viewing angles are generally narrow (a lot wider than TN panels though).

So I would say if you care about good black and color reproduction, you should choose a VA Panel (all Samsung TV and almost all Sony TV but the only model that can interest you is the Sony KDL-32HX750 if you can still find one where you live) but if you don't care about that or care more about viewing angles, choose an IPS panel (LG, Philips except high end models).