madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[mzso]

mzso
This is not related to encoder at all, this is standard colorspace. All things created for mass distribution are already 4:2:0. It is possible to initially compress video as 4:4:4, but noone interested in it for mass distribution. You won't see the difference anyway (if upscaling algorithm is decent enough). Human's eye sensitive to luma, not chroma. Compression algorithms are advanced enough. Just 4:4:4 is a twice more data to compress for no reason. For the same file size 4:4:4 will look worse than 4:2:0. And having it RGB and not YUV is totally useless.

I'm doubtful about this.

[Keiyakusha]

I'm doubtful about this.
Because you have no idea what it is. Do some learning.

[nevcairiel]

This is all very much unrelated to madVR and video rendering, you should take it elsewhere.

[dansrfe]

Is madshi taking a break from madVR development or is it finished altogether? :/

[ryrynz]

Just taking a break. He's focussing more on commercial software development right now. He did have some spare time a couple of months back apparently which he may have put into madVR development, guess we'll find out soon enough.

[mzso]

Because you have no idea what it is. Do some learning.

Most genious argument I've ever heard...

Keiyakusha:
That wasn't nice... Blocking me when I still had a reply in me.
Anyway I had some reaffirmation in another thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=165415). Case closed.

[Grizz111]

I've been playing with madvr settings for last few days and i had a constant problem of presentation glitches. About 1 in a minute and it would look like a frame drop.

I've set all flush options in exclusive mode to don't flush and it seems to be doing great now. No dropped frames, very rare presentation glitches (1 in 15 min), movies play flawlessly. Is it safe to leave everything at "don't flush"?

Other settings:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7145/47093854.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/i/47093854.jpg/)
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5190/90898232.th.jpg (http://img513.imageshack.us/i/90898232.jpg/)
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6136/62554985.th.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/62554985.jpg/)

Config: c2d e4500, 8800gt 512mb, 3gb ram

CPU is being utilized at around 10%, im using cuvid in lav filters. Video engine load is at 45%, gpu load is at 20%, vram usage is around 400MB.

Oh yeah, is there any way to solve frame drops/repeats due to difference in refresh rate? It usually happens every 40 sec for 23.976 movie (23.966 is refresh rate of tv according to ctrl+j)

thanks!

[namaiki]

Oh yeah, is there any way to solve frame drops/repeats due to difference in refresh rate? It usually happens every 40 sec for 23.976 movie (23.966 is refresh rate of tv according to ctrl+j)


You can use ReClock to change the frame rate of the video(would be adjusted to 23.966fps) or you could try do a custom resolution in nvidia control panel and see if you can get something closer to 23.976 without your monitor/TV complaining about it.

Though, one frame drop/repeat every 40s isn't really noticable, is it?

[ryrynz]

Is it safe to leave everything at "don't flush"?


It's fine, I ran into no issues with that setup.

[STaRGaZeR]

Most genious argument I've ever heard...

Keiyakusha:
That wasn't nice... Blocking me when I still had a reply in me.
Anyway I had some reaffirmation in another thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=165415). Case closed.

As Dark_Shikari said in the other thread, it depends entirely on the encoder used and of course the source. But with a good encoder, it's usually much, much better (for quality, not speed), given a fixed target bitrate, to let the encoder decide what to remove from a 4:4:4 source to achieve that bitrate instead of blindly removing 3/4 of chroma information and then compressing that.

For example, in x264 you have chroma-qp-offset, which you can use to give more quality to luma if necessary when messing with this. x264 will by default give a +6 to this setting to compensate when compressing 4:4:4, which in my experience looks an order of magnitude better than 4:2:0 in sources with actual chroma detail.

[Grizz111]

You can use ReClock to change the frame rate of the video(would be adjusted to 23.966fps) or you could try do a custom resolution in nvidia control panel and see if you can get something closer to 23.976 without your monitor/TV complaining about it.

Though, one frame drop/repeat every 40s isn't really noticable, is it?

Can reclock work with spdif passthrough? And how to set it up to avoid audio resampling and reencoding?

[Andy o]

If you want it to do its thing, it has to resample audio, so no, you can't have both ReClock fixing frames and SPDIF passthrough/bitstreaming. If you prefer to bitstream, easiest way is to just not use ReClock, since it's pointless, especially if you're only using SPDIF.

[mzso]

As Dark_Shikari said in the other thread, it depends entirely on the encoder used and of course the source. But with a good encoder, it's usually much, much better (for quality, not speed), given a fixed target bitrate, to let the encoder decide what to remove from a 4:4:4 source to achieve that bitrate instead of blindly removing 3/4 of chroma information and then compressing that.

For example, in x264 you have chroma-qp-offset, which you can use to give more quality to luma if necessary when messing with this. x264 will by default give a +6 to this setting to compensate when compressing 4:4:4, which in my experience looks an order of magnitude better than 4:2:0 in sources with actual chroma detail.

Why'd you bring it here?
Anyway that was my point/assumption. Good to hear that I was right. No one needs crappy encoders anyway... If 4:4:4 was mandatory probably even the bad ones would do a half decent job at it. (Maybe some format restriction could also set some standards)

[pokazene_maslo]

I wish that dxva2 native support will be added soon.

[vivan]

What for? Use LAV with dxva-copyback.

[pokazene_maslo]

What for? Use LAV with dxva-copyback.
That's on my ATI card working awfully slow with video in 2560x1440 resolution, playback is extremely choppy :-(
(DXVA2 native is working OK with such video (EVR))

[Andy o]

How does it work with software decoding? What's your hardware/OS? madVR is more GPU intensive than EVR, whether you use DXVA or not. If you want madVR's benefits you may have to upgrade your card at all.

[mzso]

That's on my ATI card working awfully slow with video in 2560x1440 resolution, playback is extremely choppy :-(
(DXVA2 native is working OK with such video (EVR))

You have a 2560x1440 resolution display and cant afford a better video card?

[pokazene_maslo]

How does it work with software decoding? What's your hardware/OS? madVR is more GPU intensive than EVR, whether you use DXVA or not. If you want madVR's benefits you may have to upgrade your card at all.
Believe me, my video card is good enough (HD6970 2GB)
Software decoding is working OK, but when bitrate jumps up my CPU is not powerful enough (C2D E6300@3.26GHz)

SW: w7 x64, MPC-HC 1.6.3.4992/ 1.6.3.5494, LAV 0.51.3
Hardware: C2D E6300@3.26GHz, HD6970 2GB (pcie1.1 x16), 30" 2560x1600 display

[kasper93]

Believe me, my video card is good enough (HD6970 2GB)

Copyback works better with HD7k series. I wouldn't wait for DXVA support in madVR it may take ages. There are other things to do. Anyway madshi is MIA and we don't know when next version will be released.

BTW. Don't you think that HD6970 is a little bit too powerful for E6300? I'm thinking about HD7770 for the same cpu...

[pokazene_maslo]

BTW. Don't you think that HD6970 is a little bit too powerful for E6300? I'm thinking about HD7770 for the same cpu...
It depends on what resolution are you running (higher resolution means high GPU demand, but CPU demand is pretty much constant with changing resolution). In games I'm most of the time limited by GPU in 2560x1600 resolution. Probably I will be upgrading when Haswell comes out.

BTW. what's MIA?

[kasper93]

BTW. what's MIA? missing in action :rolleyes:

[mzso]

Believe me, my video card is good enough (HD6970 2GB)
Software decoding is working OK, but when bitrate jumps up my CPU is not powerful enough (C2D E6300@3.26GHz)

SW: w7 x64, MPC-HC 1.6.3.4992/ 1.6.3.5494, LAV 0.51.3
Hardware: C2D E6300@3.26GHz, HD6970 2GB (pcie1.1 x16), 30" 2560x1600 display

I think you're out of luck here. I remember Nevcairiel mentioning that GPU decoder chips (Which DXVA and whatever else uses (I keep forgetting the proper/elegant name)) are only designed to decode fullHD@60p reliably.

[pokazene_maslo]

I think you're out of luck here. I remember Nevcairiel mentioning that GPU decoder chips (Which DXVA and whatever else uses (I keep forgetting the proper/elegant name)) are only designed to decode fullHD@60p reliably.

Maybe, but for me is DXVA2 decoding of 2560x1440@24p (18mbit/s) video working fine (and much better than software) It's just too bad that madVR doesn't support DXVA2 native input.
If you are interested in such video head over here: www.timescapes.org

[mzso]

Maybe, but for me is DXVA2 decoding of 2560x1440@24p (18mbit/s) video working fine (and much better than software) It's just too bad that madVR doesn't support DXVA2 native input.
If you are interested in such video head over here: www.timescapes.org

Then what is your problem. Use whatever decoder that you use for DXVA2 with madvr.

[pokazene_maslo]

Then what is your problem. Use whatever decoder that you use for DXVA2 with madvr.
The problem is that you don't understand that madVR doesn't support DXVA2 native input, but only DXVA2 copy-back which is very slow.

[ajp_anton]

Does there exist a 2560x1600 monitor that does 24/48/72Hz, officially or not doesn't matter as long as it works. I'd like to have both desktop area and movies on the same screen.

[dansrfe]

Does there exist a 2560x1600 monitor that does 24/48/72Hz, officially or not doesn't matter as long as it works. I'd like to have both desktop area and movies on the same screen.

This is 2560 x 1600 but it says at 60Hz at native resolution. I'm sure it supports 1080p (monitor hardware scaled) content at 24Hz and other popular refresh rates but you would have to find out for sure.

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&cs=04&l=en&sku=224-9949

My SP2309W is 2048 x 1152 but it supports (monitor hardware scaled) 1080p @ 24, 50, and 60Hz but obviously the scaling is very poor and defeats the purpose of use madVR so I'm stuck at scaling everything to 2048 x 1152 @ 60Hz.

[Andy o]

Believe me, my video card is good enough (HD6970 2GB)
Software decoding is working OK, but when bitrate jumps up my CPU is not powerful enough (C2D E6300@3.26GHz)

SW: w7 x64, MPC-HC 1.6.3.4992/ 1.6.3.5494, LAV 0.51.3
Hardware: C2D E6300@3.26GHz, HD6970 2GB (pcie1.1 x16), 30" 2560x1600 display

Maybe you can find a cheap enough (maybe used) LGA775 Core 2 quad until Haswell comes out? You've got like a year still to enjoy it. I'm using a Q9450 at stock (2.66GHz), and the only content I have trouble decoding with it is high-framerate 1080p (like 60fps) VC-1. H.264 is OK because there are multithreaded decoders available. Interlaced content is not a problem anymore since madVR now offers DXVA deinterlacing. I have no experience with content higher than 1080p though.

[ajp_anton]

This is 2560 x 1600 but it says at 60Hz at native resolution. I'm sure it supports 1080p (monitor hardware scaled) content at 24Hz and other popular refresh rates but you would have to find out for sure.

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&cs=04&l=en&sku=224-9949The manufacturer will never say they do, so I'll have to trust users who say it works even if it might be just luck.
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "you would have to find out for sure", that you haven't tried it yourself (contradicts the "I'm sure"), or that it's just luck (a chance I'm prepared to take since that's one of the monitors I've been looking at already)?
What about 2560x1600 at 24Hz? If not, how good is the monitor's scaling? I'd prefer scaling with madVR if possible.

[JarrettH]

Quick question...

When you switch between source type (film and video) is that toggling ivtc on and off?

[clancy688]

There's one issue I have with madVR (0.82.4, but I think it was also there at older versions).

Sometimes, there's a distortion down at the bottom of the screen. It looks like the lowest 50-100 lines are one frame "late", so there's a cut right through the image. When stopping the video, this distortion disappears.
Setting my graphic card's VSync option on auto doesn't work, but the distortion also doesn't occur when using madVR in fullscreen exclusive mode.

Any idea on what this could be and how I could solve it without using fullscreen exclusive mode?

[mzso]

Hello!
Theoretical question. Do you need to convert colorspaces (from the usual ycbcr) of videos to change contrast, brightness, saturation? (I guessing yes) I'm asking because I disabled the video processing filter in potplayer, because it butchered upsampling (and made the use of madVR pointless) and I lost that functionality. So if I want something like that it needs to be implemented in the renderer (madVR), right? (I mean if I intend to keep madVR-s quality)

[Asmodian]

There's one issue I have with madVR (0.82.4, but I think it was also there at older versions).

Sometimes, there's a distortion down at the bottom of the screen. It looks like the lowest 50-100 lines are one frame "late", so there's a cut right through the image. When stopping the video, this distortion disappears.
Setting my graphic card's VSync option on auto doesn't work, but the distortion also doesn't occur when using madVR in fullscreen exclusive mode.

Any idea on what this could be and how I could solve it without using fullscreen exclusive mode?

That is tearing, getting V-sync working is what fixes it. Try setting V-sync to forced on.

[clancy688]

Well, I "fixed" it by activating Aero. Now I don't have tearing. But now I have terrible stuttering on my TV (running at 1080p23) with 23.976 fps vids.

So either tearing (Aero off) or stuttering (Aero on)... :mad:

VSync forced with Aero off didn't work...

[nevcairiel]

If you use madVR in its exclusive mode, you should not see tearing.

[clancy688]

I don't. But what I'm trying to do is to achieve no tearing, no stuttering and NO fullscreen exclusion mode... ^^;

Aero disableed:

- tearing, VSync Forced doesn't work
- no stuttering
- no tearing and no stuttering with FSEM


Aero enabled:

- no tearing
- light to absolutely terrible stuttering (I don't know what's causing this... with the same video I either get everything from light to horrendous stuttering. Once there's nearly none, the next time I reboot the PC there's massive)
- FSEM doesn't help against stuttering


I can only speculate that somehow Aero's 60fps is confusing my TV (which's running at 1080p23)...



The reason I don't like fullscreen exclusive mode:

I'm often "zapping" through videos while in fullscreen. I'm using PotPlayer, but when In fullscreen exclusive mode and lowering the mouse to use madVR's seek bar for seeking, the PotPlayer seek bar pops up - and leaves fullscreen exclusion mode. As soon as the mouse button leaves the bottom and the PotPlayer bar disappears, FSEM reactivates again. For me, that is quite annoying...

Or does anyone know a way to relocate the PotPlayer/madVR seek bar to the top so that there's no quitting FSEM when seeking in fullscreen?

Anyway, the stuttering with Aero enabled is quite a mystery to me... using FSEM and no Aero may be a work-around, but it's certainly no fix... :/

[SamKook]

Or does anyone know a way to relocate the PotPlayer/madVR seek bar to the top so that there's no quitting FSEM when seeking in fullscreen?

Not sure about pot player, but if you activate "show seek bar" in madvr exclusive mode settings, mpchc shows a seek bar made by madvr instead of the mpchc one so it doesn't leave exclusive mode.

[clancy688]

Yeah, I know. But PotPlayer doesn't. :/

[Asmodian]

Aero forces its own V-sync which isn't connected to your video. This causes frames to be updated "randomly" when Aero lets it (stuttering) but you don't get tearing.

Maybe try different DirectX modes (dx11) and see if you can get V-Sync on with Aero off.

This is one of the reasons FSE was created.

[fairchild]

Or does anyone know a way to relocate the PotPlayer/madVR seek bar to the top so that there's no quitting FSEM when seeking in fullscreen?

With PotPlayer open, right click and select:
Skins->Image overlay on screen->Direct3D 9

Now when in FSE mode with MadVR + Potplayer, you can seek through video and it doesn't leave FSE. You will still go out of FSE when you right click to change some settings or check filters or whatever, but this is going to happen with any media player.

[namaiki]

I can only speculate that somehow Aero's 60fps is confusing my TV (which's running at 1080p23)...

If your primary/main monitor is 23.976Hz, then Aero will run at 23.976fps. Did you already try run your TV as the only screen?

[Andy o]

I think the anomaly here is the stuttering when Aero is enabled, rather than the tearing in Windowed/non-Aero, which is fairly common.

[dansrfe]

The manufacturer will never say they do, so I'll have to trust users who say it works even if it might be just luck.
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "you would have to find out for sure", that you haven't tried it yourself (contradicts the "I'm sure"), or that it's just luck (a chance I'm prepared to take since that's one of the monitors I've been looking at already)?
What about 2560x1600 at 24Hz? If not, how good is the monitor's scaling? I'd prefer scaling with madVR if possible.

I would like to revise my earlier answer. To be honest, I'm not sure but since I own and use a Dell SP2309W monitor myself that is 2048 x 1152 and 1/4 the price I'm assuming that the U3011 will support 24Hz and 50Hz at 1080p as well. I know for a fact that it won't support 24Hz at native resolution though since Dell is historically pretty clear about what refresh rates are supported at native resolution. That in turn means that in order to utilize 24Hz you will have to undergo inevitable hardware scaling.

Once again, you may want to post on some other forums about this monitor to see if other users who own this monitor have come up with ways of enabling 24Hz for the native resolution as it is a possibility I suppose.

[clancy688]

Thanks for your suggestions, I'll try them out over the course of the day.

There's something else I observed in the meantime: With Aero disabled and FSEM enabled, I don't have tearing and I don't have stuttering - mostly. Now and then there is a very small stutter, I'd say one every 20-30 seconds. But madVR isn't showing it, the OSD is telling me that it'll take dozens of minutes until a frame is repeated / dropped. I tested both with PotPlayer and MPC-HC.
Moreover, I played a Blu-Ray with PowerDVD - no stuttering at all, smooth playback. So even with FSEM I get tiny stutters now and then, and they are madVR-related because I don't have them with PowerDVD...

[Pat357]

Yeah, I know. But PotPlayer doesn't. :/

I had the same problem and I'm using the "3 sec delay" option in MadVR to go to FSE.
Try it, it much better for me with the delay

[Pat357]

Thanks for your suggestions, I'll try them out over the course of the day.

There's something else I observed in the meantime: With Aero disabled and FSEM enabled, I don't have tearing and I don't have stuttering - mostly. Now and then there is a very small stutter, I'd say one every 20-30 seconds. But madVR isn't showing it, the OSD is telling me that it'll take dozens of minutes until a frame is repeated / dropped.

AFAIR, MadVR does *not* report repeated frames, only dropped frames are reported. (Or has this recently been changed?)
What you could every 20-30s might be repeated frames.
This would mean that your monitor refresh rate is a little higher than the framerate from your content.
Try a movie with a different FPS and see if the 20-30s thingie is still there.

[ryrynz]

AFAIR, MadVR does *not* report repeated frames, only dropped frames are reported. (Or has this recently been changed?)


Correct. Dropped and delayed frames only.

[clancy688]

The stutters (in all modes, FSE on, off, Aero on, off) are dropped frames... every time the image stutters, the dropped frames counter increases by one or two...
But I think I've found a way to "activate" and deactivate" those stutters. When I open a video while the player's (tested with Pot and MPC) already in fullscreen, or open a video and activate fullscreen without triggering the seek bar, no frames are dropped.
But when I move the mouse cursor to the bottom of the screen and activate the player's seek bar for a short moment, soon after light frame dropping and stuttering starts.
This seems to be also the case when the player's NOT in fullscreen. As long as the player GUI is visible (and for a short time period thereafter), there's stuttering. With MPC not in fullscreen (standard interface), I had terrible stuttering. With PotPlayer (I've set it up so that there's only the video itself visible and the seek bar pops up when needed) not in fullscreen, no stuttering. But with the seek bar visible in windowed mode -> stuttering.
So an immeadiate workaround would be operating in fullscreen and NOT using the seek bar... ^^;
Still I'm curious why the GUIs are triggering such behaviour.

This is the situation with my 23p TV.

But for my main monitor there's another thing which's strange and which I stumbled upon by chance.

With FSE disabled there are no dropped frames on my 60 Hz main monitor... but with FSE enabled there are...? I always thought FSE is the allround crash-fix for everything which's not working properly, and now it's creating stuttering which wasn't there before...?

Any idea what this means?

[Pat357]

The stutters (in all modes, FSE on, off, Aero on, off) are dropped frames... every time the image stutters, the dropped frames counter increases by one or two...


You seem to contradict yourself....
I ment for your case when MadVR is in FSE and no framedrops are reported as you wrote earlier.
How can you be sure the stutters are caused by framedrops and not by repeated frames ?