madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[dansrfe]

But if I start a CIF resolution video, already the filename hardly fits in the window, as long as I don't maximize the window.

Yeah, I agree with small resolutions it would be nice if madshi implemented a scaling range for the OSD. Somewhere between 75% - 100% I suppose. But then the text would be difficult to read on the OSD so I'm not sure how that would work out.

[digitech]

Oh, no need for a sample of that. Game footage will be 0-255, but it will be handled correctly.

What I meant is that in commercial content (e.g. films) there should be no meaningful content (if anything) above 235.

I have an nvidia Ion HTPC and a Hitachi L42A403 that as far as i know it doesn't support full range (0-255), in nvidia control panel theres an option called video configuration and then i can choose 0-255, do you recommend to set it to full range and madvr the same? even if my display doesn't support 0-255, maybe i have to force 0-255 with the .exe included in madvr, in Lav video settings do i have to set it to 0-255 too? I'm all mixed up, thanks all for your help.

[dansrfe]

Set everything in your playback chain to 0-255 and use the included madNvLevelsTweaker.exe tool to force 0-255 if you're using nvidia drivers. Playback chain includes drivers, madVR, receiver, tv and anything else in-between.

[hdboy]

Set everything in your playback chain to 0-255 and use the included madNvLevelsTweaker.exe tool to force 0-255 if you're using nvidia drivers. Playback chain includes drivers, madVR, receiver, tv and anything else in-between.

I have nvidia + mpc-hc + lav video decoder + madvr

My Samsung TV has HDMI level set to Normal (0-255), madNvLevelsTweaker used to force PC levels, nvidia control panel set to rgb output and full range 0-255, madvr output set to PC levels (0-255).

Now, should I set lav video decoder to do rgb->yuv conversion to PC levels, or 'untouched (same as input)'. I select 'untouched'; I figure let madvr handle it. is this correct?

[corporalgator]

If we should set everything to 0-255, then why did madshi specifically recommend that I set desktop to 0-255 and madvr/TV to 16-235? We even both have Panasonic Plasmas.

[digitech]

Set everything in your playback chain to 0-255 and use the included madNvLevelsTweaker.exe tool to force 0-255 if you're using nvidia drivers. Playback chain includes drivers, madVR, receiver, tv and anything else in-between.

Thanks dansfre but my TV doesn't have a 0-255 option, so in my particular case i may ask, what's the real benefit in having anything at 0-255?

[dansrfe]

I have nvidia + mpc-hc + lav video decoder + madvr

My Samsung TV has HDMI level set to Normal (0-255), madNvLevelsTweaker used to force PC levels, nvidia control panel set to rgb output and full range 0-255, madvr output set to PC levels (0-255).

Now, should I set lav video decoder to do rgb->yuv conversion to PC levels, or 'untouched (same as input)'. I select 'untouched'; I figure let madvr handle it. is this correct?

Yep, that's correct.

Thanks dansfre but my TV doesn't have a 0-255 option, so in my particular case i may ask, what's the real benefit in having anything at 0-255?

0-255 keeps consistency with the range of my desktop and as madshi has previously said, it provides a visually better dynamic range, however I suppose that's something that you would have to see for yourself if you haven't seen a 0-255 playback chain before.

[Dodgexander]

There's no definitive answer. Set 0-255 on all.

Limited is only there for older displays to ensure you don't spread sources to full but can only see limited.(e.g. washed out picture)

If your worried about your display or receiver only displaying limited then use a test pattern.

Each situation is different since everyone's setup differs. There's no point saying do this because that's what I did. Test patterns don't lie.

Sent from my Blade S using Tapatalk 2

[welp]

There's no definitive answer. Set 0-255 on all.

Limited is only there for older displays to ensure you don't spread sources to full but can only see limited.(e.g. washed out picture)

If your worried about your display or receiver only displaying limited then use a test pattern.

Each situation is different since everyone's setup differs. There's no point saying do this because that's what I did. Test patterns don't lie.




This is what I thought. I use GCD as one of my tools to calibrate my htpc, namely the btb/wtw patterns. There's a lot of conflicting info out there so I need a little clarification. When people use these patterns and set their dark levels, color ranges etc. in the end what's the most important thing to achieve? Should I make sure my reference white and black are exactly right or is it more important to make sure I'm getting full range on my videos/and or desktop.

My htpc is connected via hdmi to my avr/hdtv. I've got a nvidia gpu and when forcing full range and setting everything to pc levels I'm not able to use these btb patterns. I can see one bar with my brightness cranked and that's it. I calibrated on both a ps3 and my htpc and can make my results match so I know what my brightness needs to be set at. But like I said while in mpc-hc I need to know what to look for in these test patterns. :confused:


If anyone wants to check out the GCD patterns here's the link
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1406352/gcd-gamut-calibration-disk

[nevcairiel]

If we should set everything to 0-255, then why did madshi specifically recommend that I set desktop to 0-255 and madvr/TV to 16-235? We even both have Panasonic Plasmas.

That would be the proper setup if your TV does not support full-range RGB, and requires limited. But if it supports full-range, it should be used, imho.

[6233638]

this leads to my next question...desktop better set to rgb or yuv?If your display supports it, you are best to output RGB from a PC, because they work in RGB natively, and YUV/YCC is converted by the video card output. (often poorly)

Now, should I set lav video decoder to do rgb->yuv conversion to PC levels, or 'untouched (same as input)'. I select 'untouched'; I figure let madvr handle it. is this correct?I think the default is actually 0-255, but it shouldn't matter, because LAV should not be doing any conversions anyway.

I have an nvidia Ion HTPC and a Hitachi L42A403 that as far as i know it doesn't support full range (0-255), in nvidia control panel theres an option called video configuration and then i can choose 0-255, do you recommend to set it to full range and madvr the same? even if my display doesn't support 0-255, maybe i have to force 0-255 with the .exe included in madvr, in Lav video settings do i have to set it to 0-255 too? I'm all mixed up, thanks all for your help.That setting does not control the video card output, but rather the levels used inside media players. madVR ignores these settings as it has its own controls, but I think they should be set to 0-255.

If your display doesn't have a levels option, it may support displaying 0-255 if you adjust brightness and contrast. Many displays simply clip outside the 16-235 range and won't show anything though.

If it will display 0-255 when you adjust the brightness & contrast controls, then you can usually treat it as a display that supports 0-255.

Set everything in your playback chain to 0-255 and use the included madNvLevelsTweaker.exe tool to force 0-255 if you're using nvidia drivers. Playback chain includes drivers, madVR, receiver, tv and anything else in-between.If your display supports 0-255, then setup is easy - set everything to 0-255 and you don't have to think about it.
If your display does not support 0-255, you probably should not output 0-255 from the video card (using madNvLevelsTweaker.exe) and will have to compromise.

The first option is to have everything set to 0-255, except for the video card output, so that on the output stage it is being converted to 16-235. This means that all content is kept at the same levels (desktop & video) but the conversion to 16-235 on output may introduce banding. If you are using your PC for more than just video playback, this is the setup you have to use.

However, if you are going to be using the computer exclusively for watching videos through madVR, you have a second option. What you can do is set the video card output to 0-255, and set madVR to 16-235.

This will avoid the potential banding from having the video card compress the output levels to 16-235. But it will make anything that is not video look terrible, as anything on the desktop will still be outputting 0-255, and all values above 235 and below 16 will be clipped. (very high contrast image with no shadow/highlight detail)

I would only suggest doing this if your are only using the PC for video playback, and are seeing banding from the video card outputting 16-235.

[G_M_C]

If we should set everything to 0-255, then why did madshi specifically recommend that I set desktop to 0-255 and madvr/TV to 16-235? We even both have Panasonic Plasmas.

I have a Panasonic Plasma too (PZ85E). My plasma seems to accept and display 0-255 without problem. But on the other hand; I had it calibrated by an ISF certified calibrator though.

[olli66]

hi guys, so there are many different opinions on the color range issue but what about a AVR that is connected between the HTPC and HDTV? my TV cannot handle 0-255 via HDMI and I only have one option for output of my AVR no matter if it is my HTPC, Wii-U, Xbox360 or PS3 which I pass through to my TV...

[Kado]

If your display supports it, you are best to output RGB from a PC, because they work in RGB natively, and YUV/YCC is converted by the video card output. (often poorly)

YCbCr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCbCr) is just encoded RGB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_space) right? But it seems that xvYCC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvYCC) has an extended gamut compared to sRGB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB_color_space).
My TV supports xvYCC (YCbCr444), should I use it or use RGB instead not having into account poor conversion (I use my TV for video only, not games, etc.)?

Thanks

[Neeto]

I use Windows Media Centre (WMC) to watch TV & call Media Player via MyMovies to watch movies.
The WMC render used a render that has no ability to see Black level to 0 and White level 255 unless you really mess with the video driver levels and that's "bad".
So if you use WMC at all, you need to keep Black levels at 16 and White levels at 235, but display the full range 0-255.

[Dodgexander]

I don't get what the big problem is here. Those of you asking what to use just need to use a test pattern yourself. Set all to 0-255 and then see if you get clipping on the pattern. If all is good you'll only see limited range because it's correctly being dealt with by MadVR.

The only time to set limited is if the test pattern is showing incorrectly because video is being expanded to full range and then clipped by your display or avr. (E.g. your avr or display don't pass the full range.

In short, just use a pattern to work it out yourself.

Sent from my Blade S using Tapatalk 2

[Niyawa]

I have this quick question that came to mind not long ago. If I had a 120hz screen which is compatible with 24 and 30fps, would I still need smooth motion to remove the judder? I've noticed that even when I watch 30fps in 60hz smooth motion is still enabled, so I'm not sure how it works.

[cyberbeing]

I have this quick question that came to mind not long ago. If I had a 120hz screen which is compatible with 24 and 30fps, would I still need smooth motion to remove the judder? I've noticed that even when I watch 30fps in 60hz smooth motion is still enabled, so I'm not sure how it works.
Smooth Motion option 1 activating erroneously with high refresh rate multiples is a known issue in 0.86.1, which should be resolved in the next madVR release.

[Asmodian]

YCbCr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCbCr) is just encoded RGB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_space) right? But it seems that xvYCC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvYCC) has an extended gamut compared to sRGB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB_color_space).
My TV supports xvYCC (YCbCr444), should I use it or use RGB instead not having into account poor conversion (I use my TV for video only, not games, etc.)?

Thanks

I am not sure what you mean by "is just encoded RGB". YCbCr is a different color space than RGB, they cannot be mapped into each other 1:1, sometimes two RGB values will map to the same YCbCr values and vice versa. xvYCC allows colors outside the normal RGB space but this doesn't help unless you have content that includes those colors. However, from my limited understanding, there isn't a downside to converting to xvYCC.

[rahzel]

If we should set everything to 0-255, then why did madshi specifically recommend that I set desktop to 0-255 and madvr/TV to 16-235? We even both have Panasonic Plasmas.
Was there something taken out of context? The only reason I can think of that you would want this setup, is if you wanted to pass BTB/WTW while still matching your levels between display and video; however your desktop will be using the wrong range and will have clipped white/blacks and an overall incorrect picture.

That would be the proper setup if your TV does not support full-range RGB, and requires limited. But if it supports full-range, it should be used, imho.
Agreed.

I have this quick question that came to mind not long ago. If I had a 120hz screen which is compatible with 24 and 30fps, would I still need smooth motion to remove the judder? I've noticed that even when I watch 30fps in 60hz smooth motion is still enabled, so I'm not sure how it works.
Since you have a 120Hz display that properly plays 24p, you don't need to use FRC smooth motion. Just set your refresh rate to 23Hz for 24p.

[Asmodian]

Since you have a 120Hz display that properly plays 24p, you don't need to use FRC smooth motion. Just set your refresh rate to 23Hz for 24p.

119.88012 works for both 24/1.001 and 30/1.001, no need for FRC or changing refresh rates.

[rahzel]

119.88012 works for both 24/1.001 and 30/1.001, no need for FRC or changing refresh rates.
If you're outputting 120Hz refresh rate, yes. But AFAIK, most (if not all) 120Hz/240Hz HDTVs can't actually accept a 120Hz signal, only 120Hz computer monitors. If you have a 120Hz HDTV you'll probably need to output 23Hz to properly handle 24p and to avoid judder. Outputting 59/60Hz to a 120Hz display will still have judder because 59/60 is not a multiple of 24. It will convert 24 -> 60, then it will display each frame twice. Outputting 23Hz (actually ~23.976) it will display each frame 5x.

[LigH]

Why do you round 23.976 down to 23?

[rahzel]

Why do you round 23.976 down to 23?
Ask Microsoft (or perhaps the GPU makers). :)

Selecting 23Hz in the desktop will actually output ~23.976Hz (more or less, depending on your GPU maker). 24Hz will actually output ~24Hz. Your actual display refresh rate can be checked in madVR's OSD (ctrl + J during playback).

I believe you can add refresh rates to madVR to automatically switch when the frame rate matches.

[Asmodian]

If you're outputting 120Hz refresh rate, yes. But AFAIK, most (if not all) 120Hz/240Hz HDTVs can't actually accept a 120Hz signal, only 120Hz computer monitors.

Ah very true, but if it isn't accepting a 120Hz signal I don't consider it a 120Hz display. I don't care what they write on the box, they seem to write anything they feel like on the box with no consistant meaning to any of it. :p

[rahzel]

HDTVs do internal 120Hz processing. They may not be true 120Hz displays in the sense that they will not accept 120Hz signals, but they do handle 24p content properly... something that normal 60Hz HDTVs do not. I bought a Panasonic 60ST50 plasma (60Hz) to replace my LG 55LH90 LCD/LED (240Hz) as my main theater display and I do slightly miss the ability to properly handle 24p content. FRC plays film at 60Hz better than my ST50 converts 24p -> 60Hz so it's not so bad now.

[Asmodian]

My LG PK750 plasma accepts 24 or 60 Hz and it is a 60Hz display, you don't need 120 Hz anything to support 24 Hz. I don't understand the point of 120 Hz displays that only accept 60Hz input but I only plug PCs into all my displays so I am probably not the normal user.

How do they support 24p in a 60Hz signal properly? Automatic detection of the 3:2 pattern and display each of the frames that had been duplicated 3 times for two internal refreshes and the frames that had been duplicated 2 times for three internal refreshes? It seems like this would start having issues with anime or other sources that have their own odd pattern of duplicates. I don't have a fake 120+ Hz display to test with but I hear they have gotten pretty good at this but I still don't like calling them 120Hz displays. What do you call a real 120Hz display then? Adding back light strobing and calling that double refresh rate is insulting, even if back light strobing looks good it isn't equivalent to 2x the refresh rate.

Sorry for the rant. :o

Good thing MadVR's automatic refresh rate changer works so well. :)

[Dodgexander]

I think the point is that the displays do refresh at 120Hz, it's just they don't accept a 120Hz signal.

It's easier to turn 24 into 120 than 60, which is the reason for these displays.

Sent from my Blade S using Tapatalk 2

[DragonQ]

I thought most TVs showed 24p material at 72 or 96 Hz but it could just as easily be 120 Hz on some sets. Any integer multiple at 72 Hz or higher would be fine. Also note that any TV advertised as "120 Hz" would be using 100 Hz for 25p/25i/50p input signals.

[rahzel]

My LG PK750 plasma accepts 24 or 60 Hz and it is a 60Hz display, you don't need 120 Hz anything to support 24 Hz. I don't understand the point of 120 Hz displays that only accept 60Hz input but I only plug PCs into all my displays so I am probably not the normal user.

How do they support 24p in a 60Hz signal properly? Automatic detection of the 3:2 pattern and display each of the frames that had been duplicated 3 times for two internal refreshes and the frames that had been duplicated 2 times for three internal refreshes? It seems like this would start having issues with anime or other sources that have their own odd pattern of duplicates. I don't have a fake 120+ Hz display to test with but I hear they have gotten pretty good at this but I still don't like calling them 120Hz displays. What do you call a real 120Hz display then? Adding back light strobing and calling that double refresh rate is insulting, even if back light strobing looks good it isn't equivalent to 2x the refresh rate.

Sorry for the rant. :o

Good thing MadVR's automatic refresh rate changer works so well. :)
120Hz HDTVs do refresh at 120Hz, they just don't accept the signal. I don't think it's a limitation, just that they're not really designed that way. Other than PC gaming, there really isn't anything that takes advantage of these high refresh rates.

60Hz displays may support 24p, but they don't do it the same way 120Hz displays do. They must convert the framerate to play properly at 60Hz... this isn't the proper way of handling 24p as it will introduce judder unless they have some sort of internal processing that removes the judder. 120Hz HDTVs display the 24 frames 5x per second without conversion so there shouldn't be any judder.

My ST50 also accepts 24Hz input, but doing so shows noticeable artifacts, which is why I use FRC and just output 60Hz from my HTPC instead.

[Dodgexander]

What kind of solutions are there in the market for pal users then? Because making a tv refresh at a multiple of 24 is one thing, but what about 25?

Can any displays dynamically change their refresh rate? Because I thought that wasn't possible any more.

Sent from my Blade S using Tapatalk 2

[Asmodian]

My TV, at least, accepts a 24Hz signal and refreshes at 24Hz when receiving said 24Hz signal. By calling it a 60Hz display I just meant it doesn't claim to refresh at anything higher than 60Hz.

Of course modern displays can change their refresh rates on the fly, none of the displays I have cannot. MadVR's refresh rate changer wouldn't be much use if they couldn't. You should be able to run at 25 or 50Hz on some models.

I don't think it's a limitation, just that they're not really designed that way.

It is a limitation when plugged into a PC, if the panel can refresh at 120Hz why not accept a 120Hz signal? If the display is new enough to support HDMI 1.4b and calls itself a 120/240Hz display I don't see why it doesn't support 120Hz input. The hardware in a few pretty cheap Korean monitors supports 2560x1440@120Hz so it cannot be that hard.

[Niyawa]

Smooth Motion option 1 activating erroneously with high refresh rate multiples is a known issue in 0.86.1, which should be resolved in the next madVR release.

Since you have a 120Hz display that properly plays 24p, you don't need to use FRC smooth motion. Just set your refresh rate to 23Hz for 24p.
Thanks to you all who replied. The reason I want a 120hz display is because not only I like to play FPS games (more frame rate makes a huge difference) but also because of the "smooth" vision you get in the whole screen, I've seen it one time and I can't get it out of my head.

[Asmodian]

I love my Tempest X270OC monitor for those reasons. :)

Sadly a 120Hz TV will give you none of them. :(

[rahzel]

It is a limitation when plugged into a PC, if the panel can refresh at 120Hz why not accept a 120Hz signal? If the display is new enough to support HDMI 1.4b and calls itself a 120/240Hz display I don't see why it doesn't support 120Hz input. The hardware in a few pretty cheap Korean monitors supports 2560x1440@120Hz so it cannot be that hard.
Why would TV manufacturers support an input refresh rate that hardly anyone would use? HDTVs are mainly used for film, video and console gaming where a 120Hz input signal is not needed for any of them. I'm sure at some point we will see HDTVs supporting higher refresh rates, but now it's a very niche feature to include. The fact that 120Hz HDTVs don't support 120Hz from an external source does not mean that they aren't actually refreshing at 120Hz.

[nevcairiel]

What kind of solutions are there in the market for pal users then? Because making a tv refresh at a multiple of 24 is one thing, but what about 25?

Most TVs sold in Europe support 50Hz/100Hz in addition to the 60Hz/120Hz, however many TVs sold in the US come without 50/100Hz support.. :)

[Niyawa]

Why would TV manufacturers support an input refresh rate that hardly anyone would use? HDTVs are mainly used for film, video and console gaming where a 120Hz input signal is not needed for any of them. I'm sure at some point we will see HDTVs supporting higher refresh rates, but now it's a very niche feature to include. The fact that 120Hz HDTVs don't support 120Hz from an external source does not mean that they aren't actually refreshing at 120Hz.
Don't want to start an argument or anything especially because it's a little off-topic, but that mindset is what makes technology more stagnant IMHO. We say something such as "we don't need it" many times, and we were wrong many of that times. The perfect example would be tablets, long time ago no one thought of going around in the streets with a portable big screen with them, it was just crazy. I believe the same thing applies to real 120hz screens (anything that doesn't rely on ghosting). Once people get the knowledge about the pros of it (including the ones I mentioned) then we might as well have a new potential for business and new customers.

[Prinz]

UHDTV specs include 120 fps, so the new UHDTV TV's should support it.

[DragonQ]

What kind of solutions are there in the market for pal users then? Because making a tv refresh at a multiple of 24 is one thing, but what about 25?

Can any displays dynamically change their refresh rate? Because I thought that wasn't possible any more.

Sent from my Blade S using Tapatalk 2
Essentially all TVs can dynamically change their refresh rate. If you buy an HDTV in the UK it'll be able to display at least 50 Hz, 59.94 Hz and 60 Hz (or integer multiples thereof) and probably 23.976 Hz and 24 Hz too. It's PC monitors, which are largely limited to 60 Hz, that are the problem.

[rahzel]

Don't want to start an argument or anything especially because it's a little off-topic, but that mindset is what makes technology more stagnant IMHO. We say something such as "we don't need it" many times, and we were wrong many of that times. The perfect example would be tablets, long time ago no one thought of going around in the streets with a portable big screen with them, it was just crazy. I believe the same thing applies to real 120hz screens (anything that doesn't rely on ghosting). Once people get the knowledge about the pros of it (including the ones I mentioned) then we might as well have a new potential for business and new customers.
That's just the way it is with TVs these days. Many TV manufacturers are struggling and the ones that aren't are focusing on the mainstream market that could care less about accepting 120Hz refresh rates. Even to most videophiles it's not a big concern. Again, there most likely will be TVs that will accept 120Hz refresh rate in the near future, but the demand for it is very low right now, both content and consumer wise.

[turbojet]

If the refresh rate can be set to multiple of fps is there any use in reclock?

[Dodgexander]

But I thought if I was to set my tv to 50 Hz, because the panel is at 60Hz you would still see judder, for the same reason as 24 Hz viewed on a 60 Hz display.

Let's not get mixed up here, I'm talking about the output refresh rate, not input.

Sent from my Blade S using Tapatalk 2

[Dodgexander]

If the refresh rate can be set to multiple of fps is there any use in reclock?

Yes, for wasapi output. But also because there is a small difference between 24hz and 23.9 meaning in order not to see a frame added every so often you want to alter the audio clock instead(essentially what reclock does)

Sent from my Blade S using Tapatalk 2

[secvensor]

Can it is time divide a forum discussion of algorithms and discussion of monitors with video cards and frequency of updating?

What into the account of this shader?
https://github.com/libretro/common-shaders/tree/master/Anti-aliasing

[DragonQ]

But I thought if I was to set my tv to 50 Hz, because the panel is at 60Hz you would still see judder, for the same reason as 24 Hz viewed on a 60 Hz display.

Let's not get mixed up here, I'm talking about the output refresh rate, not input.

Sent from my Blade S using Tapatalk 2
What do you mean "the panel is 60 Hz"? The panel can be driven at multiple frequencies and, as I said above, as long as the panel accepts a 50 Hz input signal, it will display it natively without judder. People in Europe do this every day...

[toniash]

Can it is time divide a forum discussion of algorithms and discussion of monitors with video cards and frequency of updating?

What into the account of this shader?
https://github.com/libretro/common-shaders/tree/master/Anti-aliasing
Can it be used directly in MPC/POTp?

[dansrfe]

You guys do realize that most 60Hz monitors can be fed 48Hz or 50Hz to display exact multiples right? And with ReClock 23.976 is easily sped up to 24fps to match 48Hz exactly. It's not the best solution but it's better than running everything at 60Hz although with FRC that recommendation changes I believe.

[DragonQ]

You guys do realize that most 60Hz monitors can be fed 48Hz or 50Hz to display exact multiples right? And with ReClock 23.976 is easily sped up to 24fps to match 48Hz exactly. It's not the best solution but it's better than running everything at 60Hz although with FRC that recommendation changes I believe.
"Most"? I don't think so.

Some that claim to only support 60 Hz can be made to accept other refresh rates using special software but certainly not all. Even my high-end 24WMGX3 only supports 50 Hz via HDMI and even then it clearly isn't natively displayed because there is tearing.

[ryrynz]

Have strayed a bit far off topic. Might wanna reign it in a little now.

[Dodgexander]

I have a relatively old display that accepts a 24Hz signal, but only when forced.

When I use it this way, there is clearly something not right. Flickering screen, more judder than the same film at 60Hz. So this leads me to believe that there is processing done by the television from 24>60 and it also made me wonder(although I didn't notice this far) that the same may apply with 50>60.

If it's the case most displays support the change, why is it that they offer technology that is suppose to eliminate judder when fed a 24Hz signal when the same displays supposedly natively display 24 Hz and why now do we have 120 Hz+ tv's??

I'm welcome to be proved wrong, but I'm quite sure the ability to accept 24Hz does not equal the actual television refreshing at that rate, but instead it being "converted" to the native refresh rate.

This is without taking into consideration the 23.9>24 issue.

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