madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Warner306]

I would guess that you need to use fullscreen exclusive mode for that driver to get 10-bit output.

[NM20]

I would guess that you need to use fullscreen exclusive mode for that driver to get 10-bit output.

Is that a checkbox in MadVR? Under the rendering section I think?

[tp4tissue]

This is only for projector owners ? or would you state the same for a 55" OLED ?


If someone spends $2000 on an oled. what's another $150, $200 for a Colorimeter. :D


When they run out the panels at the factory, if they're tested/calibrated at all, they're hooked up to patch generators, Your pc is not a patch generator. You always need a calibration native to your hardware for accuracy.

[TechnoPeasant]

Can anyone point me to some documentation on the NGU scaling settings? Just looking to tweak everything the best I can :D

Right now I'm running NGU Sharp (medium) + anti-ringing for luma, but am curious about how that compares to Anti-Alias. Thanks!

[SamuriHL]

The only "advice" anyone can give you is to simply try it. Compare with your own eyes. No one is going to have the same viewing environment and preferences as you. You have to choose what looks "best" to your eyes.

[ryrynz]

^ The best response. You can't go wrong with anything NGU, do what you can to bump up luma quality to high if possible.

[tp4tissue]

^ The best response. You can't go wrong with anything NGU, do what you can to bump up luma quality to high if possible.

IMHO, 3DLut's impact/difference far exceeds the benefit of NGU. :D

They're not mutually exclusive, but if someone had a choice between buying a new GPU, or a Colorimeter, I'd say Colorimeter first all the way.

[nsnhd]

^ The best response. You can't go wrong with anything NGU, do what you can to bump up luma quality to high if possible.

If the GPU can afford, which combination do you think will give a better image:
1.Chroma NGU AA High + Luma NGU Sharp High < SSIM 2D LL AR AB
2.Chroma Bicubic60 AR + Luma NGU Sharp VeryHigh < SSIM 1D LL AR AB

Thanks

[ryrynz]

For me 1) would be the easy choice. SSIM 2D is the superior of the two versions of SSIM.
If it affords you enough performance sacrificing AA chroma to medium or low to reach NGU sharp Very High may be worth it (Evaluate with your content to determine)

[chros]

If your display can't operate in chroma 4:4:4 then option 2, otherwise 1.

[ryrynz]

If not 4:4:4 then I'd change NGU sharp from very high to high and switch to SSIM 2D if there's enough headroom on the table.

[madjock]

Can you just clarify for me, how do you select 4:4:4, so you mean not RGB and using YCbCr 444 in NCP?

And if so what are the gains ? I thought everyone was saying RGB Full was the correct setting ?

[Asmodian]

No, we often use 4:4:4 to mean RGB or YCbCr 4:4:4. We cannot tell if a display is using RGB or YCbCr internally so we just use 4:4:4 to mean full resolution chroma to contrast against 4:2:2, which is the other option displays often use.

RGB Full is the correct setting in NCP.

[madjock]

Ok thank you for the explanation.

[ryrynz]

Madjock here's a post (https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1673852&postcount=25082) by 6233638, that gives you image you can use to test if your display is using 4:4:4, 4:2:2 or 4:2:0. You will want to see which screen modes allow you to allow full resolution chroma.

[tp4tissue]

If the GPU can afford, which combination do you think will give a better image:
1.Chroma NGU AA High + Luma NGU Sharp High < SSIM 2D LL AR AB
2.Chroma Bicubic60 AR + Luma NGU Sharp VeryHigh < SSIM 1D LL AR AB

Thanks

From what resolution to what resolution

[madjock]

@ryrynz

Thanks. Bit of a wake up call to be honest. When I have tried 4:4:4 yest PNGs before I thought everything was ok, what I never knew was that it had to be a native resolution and not zoom in to a 1080p which I did in the past with this 4K TV.

So when I tried this https://imgur.com/a/J2VMDJj The text looks scambled, although very small.

The link you gave I don't seem to have success with any of the 3 ?

I cant see the 4:2:2 at all on the 4:4:4 test
I cant see the 4:4:4 on the 4:2:2 Test
I cant see anything on the 4:2:0 Test

Since they are 1080p images I took my res down to 1080p but no joy.

But the updated image in the link I can barely make out a 4:2:2 which is made up of lines rather than solid colour, but nothing else can be seen.

What am I doing wrong ?

[Asmodian]

Just view the image in the middle of the screen, don't change your resolution or scale the image at all.

You are only supposed to be able to see 4:4:4 if your screen is in 4:4:4, and everything else should be very faint. If you can only see 4:2:2 then your screen is in 4:2:2, not using full resolution chroma. That text image you linked is not useful for this.

The image is designed to tell you the mode your screen is in, not show you what modes it supports. Only one (444, 422, or noting if 420) should be visible at a time.

[madjock]

Well thats the problem, I can see 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 in their respective images ? But no faint outline of the other numbers.

EDIT :MMM well with the updated image it was zooming in a fraction, it looks like Im 4:2:2 but the HDMI input selection is set for 4:4:4 and drivers are set at RGB Full.

[Asmodian]

Your TV must be converting to 4:2:2 internally. :(

[madjock]

Ah well I just selected GAME for picture type and now I can see a dark 4:4:4 ?

So all good I think. :)

[Alexkral]

So if the last builds ignore any metadata, which value is used as MaxCLL when madVR is not measuring the frame peak luminance? 10000? I think an option to set this could be very useful for testing, but at least there should be some information in the OSD. Also, what exactly does the tone map value mean when it measures the frame peak luminance?

[tp4tissue]

Ah well I just selected GAME for picture type and now I can see a dark 4:4:4 ?

So all good I think. :)

Use this test image

https://linustechtips.com/main/uploads/monthly_2016_11/TextTest_4k.png.8fc940e703b15b869281af8c8d22f67e.png

Take a picture OF the TV of the bottom txt part with the red on blue blue on red with the pixels in focus (up close) and we'll tell you if it's 4:4:4

[TechnoPeasant]

IMHO, 3DLut's impact/difference far exceeds the benefit of NGU. :D

They're not mutually exclusive, but if someone had a choice between buying a new GPU, or a Colorimeter, I'd say Colorimeter first all the way.

Interesting, thanks for the tip. I've been thinking about buying one, but don't really know where to start. For now my 1050ti will have to suffice. :D

[TechnoPeasant]

The only "advice" anyone can give you is to simply try it. Compare with your own eyes. No one is going to have the same viewing environment and preferences as you. You have to choose what looks "best" to your eyes.

I agree, but like most things involved with madVR, the devil is in the details. If I don't know what to look for, I may never notice the difference. In addition, there may be drawbacks to some of the techniques that I'm not aware of.

I never asked for advice, but rather documentation so I can make my own decision. :)

[thighhighs]

TechnoPeasant
Some good general guides for you. Here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1709584#post1709584) and here (https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188).

[Alexkral]

I never asked for advice, but rather documentation so I can make my own decision. :)

Fortunately Asmodian and Warner306 have made some very useful guides, but sometimes that's not enough, especially when the options are constantly changing. I'm thinking about making an objective comparison between the madVR scaling algorithms, but right now I'm on other things.

[Asmodian]

Mine really is not meant to be used as a guide. ;)

I never asked for advice, but rather documentation so I can make my own decision. :)

This is exactly the intent of my madVR Options Explained thread! It is not intended as a guide but just to explain what everything does so you can make informed decisions.

If any option is unclear to you please ask (in that thread if possible, please :) ), I always want to improve my descriptions and the post in general.

[tp4tissue]

Mine really is not meant to be used as a guide. ;)



This is exactly the intent of my madVR Options Explained thread! It is not intended as a guide but just to explain what everything does so you can make informed decisions.

If any option is unclear to you please ask (in that thread if possible, please :) ), I always want to improve my descriptions and the post in general.


That said, Something must be noted about Electricity use.

Because For example, at lower resolutions outputs, Lanczos is really enough, but people do things like NGU chroma. HUGE waste of electricity. :D

[Warner306]

So if the last builds ignore any metadata, which value is used as MaxCLL when madVR is not measuring the frame peak luminance? 10000? I think an option to set this could be very useful for testing, but at least there should be some information in the OSD. Also, what exactly does the tone map value mean when it measures the frame peak luminance?

The MaxCLL is based on the value for hdrVideoPeak:

hdrVideoPeak

hdrVideoPeak is the maximum peak brightness of any pixel in the source. hdrVideoPeak uses the MaxCLL (Maximum Content Light Level). If MaxCLL is 0, or if both MaxCLL and MaxFALL are rounded to an even multiple of 50 (e.g. 500/500 or 10000/450), then MaxCLL is considered invalid and the mastering display maximum luminance is used instead. Sources measured with madMeasureHDR will set hdrVideoPeak to the measured peak of 99.9% of all frames to exclude any outlying pixels, or a valid MaxCLL, whichever value is lower.

If you search through the links in the HDR section of the Kodi guide, you'll find some detailed descriptions of the tone mapping methods.

The tone map to value in the OSD shows the target for the tone curve, which is essentially the value that is used for the mastering display peak in BT.2390. The lower the mastering peak or measured frame peak, the higher the knee point and the less aggressive the roll-off becomes.

[Alexkral]

Yes thanks, but the hdrVideoPeak is a parameter to set profile rules, what I mean is that madVR doesn't inform in the OSD about the selected value. So if everything is as you say it's easy to deduce, but as madhi says that the latest buids completely ignore the metadata, there is no way of knowing what value they are using.

On the tone map value in the OSD, if that's its meaning then it should be equal to the measured frame. I'm thinking that it's different because it's a rolling average.

[Warner306]

If dynamic tone mapping is involved, the measured frame peak is always the active MaxCLL.

[Asmodian]

Use this test image

https://linustechtips.com/main/uploads/monthly_2016_11/TextTest_4k.png.8fc940e703b15b869281af8c8d22f67e.png

That image is much less useful than the other one, have you tried it? Why would you suggest using this image?!?

The magenta 4:4:4 is very obvious while this is just random color detail you have to analyze. I don't understand why it is being linked as a way to test for chroma subsampling. :mad:

[chros]

That text image you linked is not useful for this.
Honestly, I prefer the simple images, e.g. test2 from the Chroma section of this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836), it's more straightforward to see (with an image viewer/browser) whether you get 4:4:4 or not. And if it isn't then does it matter what is? :)

[toki]

Alright guys, please don't be mad at me if this is really pleb questions, but I just got a 4k tv, a vizio e series 43" E43-F1, I have a few questions about this. The first thing is the correct setting in nvidia control panel. I set it to 60Hz, it automatically switches to ycbcr, I can't do RGB with it. I fixed the stuttering for the most part by turning off the Windows HDR, but when I play movies I'm still getting 93 to 97% from my gpu, it's a 1660ti. I want to get that down, put correct settings in Nvidia control panel. Then I would like to know how should I go about calibrating this television. Should I just try and calibrate to HDR or HDR and SD both when doing so? I know this is a madVR thread, but all of these questions are mainly for viewing with madVR. Please help

[mclingo]

Alright guys, please don't be mad at me if this is really pleb questions, but I just got a 4k tv, a vizio e series 43" E43-F1, I have a few questions about this. The first thing is the correct setting in nvidia control panel. I set it to 60Hz, it automatically switches to ycbcr, I can't do RGB with it. I fixed the stuttering for the most part by turning off the Windows HDR, but when I play movies I'm still getting 93 to 97% from my gpu, it's a 1660ti. I want to get that down, put correct settings in Nvidia control panel. Then I would like to know how should I go about calibrating this television. Should I just try and calibrate to HDR or HDR and SD both when doing so? I know this is a madVR thread, but all of these questions are mainly for viewing with madVR. Please help

Hi, you can only do 8bit 444 full RGB, you must have set it to 12 bit.

Never use windows HDR, turn this off and leave it that way, MADVR uses NVIDA HDR API and will turn HDR for you.

Make sure you use full screen exclusing in MADVR.


If you are a total noob dont mess with the calibrating settings on your TV, for more advice on this see if there is a forum for your TV specifically on AVS

[toki]

Hi, you can only do 8bit 444 full RGB, you must have set it to 12 bit.

Never use windows HDR, turn this off and leave it that way, MADVR uses NVIDA HDR API and will turn HDR for you.

Make sure you use full screen exclusing in MADVR.


If you are a total noob dont mess with the calibrating settings on your TV, for more advice on this see if there is a forum for your TV specifically on AVS

I'm a noob with HDR calibration. I had 1080 calibration down great, looked great. I am just trying to figure out all of these settings. When going to 60Hz, the only option there is ycbcr 4.2.2 at 8 bits. There isn't anything else.

[mclingo]

I'm a noob with HDR calibration. I had 1080 calibration down great, looked great. I am just trying to figure out all of these settings. When going to 60Hz, the only option there is ycbcr 4.2.2 at 8 bits. There isn't anything else.

current HDMI standards only allow 8 bit @ 60hz with 4k, the reason its dropping to 422 when you set your desktop at 60hz is that you must have set you grahics card to 12 bit, check again.

You can get 60hz in 4k but only at 23/24kz, you have a lot of reading to do this i'm afraid, there are a lot of pitfalls with NVIDIA cards surround bits, resolutions and drivers.

start here.

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188

[toki]

I'm actually worried that it might be the HDMI cable I'm using. It doesn't anywhere on the page about 2.0. It's a vizio cable and just says it play 4k. I'm also wondering if this is what's pushing my gpu to 94% and above. I mean I got the 1660ti to compensate for the 4k upgrade, but man, it's a huge spike in gpu usage. I can't even watch this at 94% usage.

[toki]

I'm actually worried that it might be the HDMI cable I'm using. It doesn't anywhere on the page about 2.0. It's a vizio cable and just says it play 4k. I'm also wondering if this is what's pushing my gpu to 94% and above. I mean I got the 1660ti to compensate for the 4k upgrade, but man, it's a huge spike in gpu usage. I can't even watch this at 94% usage. Thanks everyone who's actually replied btw.

[huhn]

it will not put load on your card that's not how cables work.

you need computer picture mode and UHD deep color to make 4.4:4 work on these TVs.
be aware that this TV needs "film mode" for 24p you may don't have access to it in PC mode.

[toki]

it will not put load on your card that's not how cables work.

you need computer picture mode and UHD deep color to make 4.4:4 work on these TVs.
be aware that this TV needs "film mode" for 24p you may don't have access to it in PC mode.I tried computer mode, didn't change anything and film mode was already on.

[mclingo]

I tried computer mode, didn't change anything and film mode was already on.

ok, drop into 23hz and switch to 444 full RGB, does it show 8 bit or 12bit?

if it shows 12 bit drop to 8 bit and then change to 60hz

[huhn]

Update 10/24/2018: We've received a few reports that the 43" model does not properly display chroma 4:4:4.

they may have a cheaped out yet again.
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/vizio/e-series-2018

still check full deep color it maybe missing on the 43.

[toki]

Checked again, at 23Hz, all options are there at 8 bit, switching to 60Hz, only ycbcr 4.2.2 comes up. There is no option to change to anything else. There is no full deep color on this model. It doesn't support WCG. I got this because of all the 43" tv's this one got the best rating on multiple sites.

[huhn]

this is usually not tested and doesn't matter for most user.
to fix your GPU load i need a screen of your OSD.

[toki]

So I don't know what the deal is. I was able to take screenshots before, but it's giving me a black page now and the rendering times are outrageous. I can't believe it's going this high from a 1080 to 4k. I was getting about 21 to about 53ms now?!

[huhn]

are you using d3d9 overlay?

[Klaus1189]

I was able to take screenshots before, but it's giving me a black page now

Do you have FSE enabled? I think this prevents it, but I may be wrong. But you can also post a picture taken with a camera.

[mclingo]

This year's model can support 4k @ 60 Hz @ 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 color on all ports, but it works only when Full UHD Color is enabled for that port.

4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4 + HDR is also supported.


from rtings