madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[James Freeman]

This is a common claim, keep the range "the same", but this is not how it works.
The YUV and RGB ranges are not strictly related. Converting from YUV to RGB changes the values either way, slightly adjusting the coeffecients to adjust their output to 0-255 or 16-235 is not an extra range conversion step, it just targets a different output range. The quality is not higher when you use 16-235.

Yes, but at least Luma is not touched that way, it's straight forward, no dithering is needed either.
Chroma is the biggest problem when going from YUV to RGB, 16-240 and 0.5 pixel disposition compared to the luma in 4:2:0, dithering is definitely needed.
But indeed, Luma and Chroma do not go separate, they are always together so dithering is a must.

BTB and WTW are important for calibration patterns if you play them through the HTPC, that is why I like that method even if the HTPC UI is clipped.
After calibration I may change to madVR full, GPU limited, TV limited, for correct range with games and emulators on my HTPC.

I also found that if you like your TV bright (max brightness or 400nit :scared:) you are definitely going to see the dithering by madVR even in 8bit.

[baii]

Yes, but at least Luma is not touched that way, it's straight forward, no dithering is needed either.
Chroma is the biggest problem when going from YUV to RGB, 16-240 and 0.5 pixel disposition compared to the luma in 4:2:0, dithering is definitely needed.
But indeed, Luma and Chroma do not go separate, they are always together so dithering is a must.

BTB and WTW are important for calibration patterns if you play them through the HTPC, that is why I like that method even if the HTPC UI is clipped.
After calibration I may change to madVR full, GPU limited, TV limited, for correct range with games and emulators on my HTPC.

I also found that if you like your TV bright (max brightness or 400nit :scared:) you are definitely going to see the dithering by madVR even in 8bit.
Why would non madvr activity benefit from using GPU limited and TV limited?

Sent from my 306SH using Tapatalk

[Stereodude]

The most accurate (IMO):
(madVR) TV levels (16-235) -> (GPU) Full Range RGB 0-255 -> (TV) Output as RGB 16-235
That way you don't lose BTB and WTW signal and actually the closest setting to a top notch quality blu-ray player.
It also has no range conversions.
But as said, you can't play PC games or play any full range signal from your PC because it will be clipped.
You're wrong, but you're free to do whatever you want.

By the way, that's not what a top notch quality blu-ray player does. A "top notch quality blu-ray player", and even the crappy ones, output YCbCr over HDMI and the TV converts it to RGB 0-255 internally. BTB and WTW are not remotely necessary to properly adjust the brightness and contrast settings of a TV.

[James Freeman]

Why would non madvr activity benefit from using GPU limited and TV limited?
It depends on the TV.
My TV is most well behaved (accurate color and smooth grey gradient) in Limited YCbCr range.
Considering that most of TV devices are in Limited/TV range (Blu-Ray Players, Satellite boxes, Android boxes, etc..), I incline to think that the manufacturer was investing most effort for accuracy in that range.
Don't mark my words, do your own testing.

You're wrong, but you're free to do whatever you want.
Alright, this is just what I do, not a rule carved in stone for all HTPC owner to follow.
Thanks.

[nevcairiel]

Yes, but at least Luma is not touched that way, it's straight forward, no dithering is needed either.

Except thats not how it works. The RGB channels are created as a combination from Luma and Chroma, so even if Luma is not "changed", it gets combined with the various factors of chroma, which defeats this entire argument.

[Stereodude]

Considering that most of TV devices are in Limited/TV range (Blu-Ray Players, Satellite boxes, Android boxes, etc..), I incline to think that the manufacturer was investing most effort for accuracy in that range.
Pretty much all CE devices, cable boxes, blu-ray players, etc output YCbCr over HDMI. There's no such thing as 0-255 YCbCr. The spec is for 16-235 when used over HDMI. PCs output RGB over HDMI. You're drawing a false equivalence between the two.

[iSeries]

Whatever theoretical advantage one setup might have over the other, I'd be amazed if anyone could actually see a difference watching a movie.

[Warner306]

Reading Warner's description, can someone confirm if on Samsung TVs (at least as long as the HDMI input is not deliberately specified as "PC" by the user):

HDMI black level on "Normal" = full range
HDMI black level on "Low" = limited range

(I'm not at my TV at the moment but I remember if the input is named "PC", the black level setting is greyed out and fixed to either one of the options. Not much sense in using "PC" though because many other options are also greyed out then and become unconfigurable.)

Normal vs. Low works exactly as specified. I use option 1 on a laptop and can't tell the difference. I think Intel's dithering is pretty good.

[Warner306]

there is a tool in the madVR folder that allows full range output on old intel GPUs and older nvidia driver.

madLevelsTweaker.exe

How does this tool work? Is it worth mentioning?

[huhn]

How does this tool work? Is it worth mentioning?

it changes the entry for the output range

it was very important in the past but all newer driver for new GPU have an limited range and full range option in the driver.

just run it it is self explaining. still wonderful for old intel cards.

[smsmasters]

Which windows media center software is compatible with MadVR + live TV?

[baii]

Which windows media center software is compatible with MadVR + live TV?
Live TV? Only thing I am aware is jriver. Maybe potplayer, but haven't try to set one up yet on pot.

Sent from my 306SH using Tapatalk

[smsmasters]

Live TV? Only thing I am aware is jriver. Maybe potplayer, but haven't try to set one up yet on pot.

Sent from my 306SH using Tapatalk

Yes live TV with a tuner. Any freeware?

I use WMC but would like something else that uses MadVR.

[GCRaistlin]

Whatever theoretical advantage one setup might have over the other, I'd be amazed if anyone could actually see a difference watching a movie.

I do see a difference with calibration patterns on my Epson projector. I suppose this means that I get better picture while watching a real movie, too.

[e-t172]

No matter what people claim, but BTB/WTW are not meant to be visible. A properly calibrated screen should have absolute black as absolute black. There is no room to show any blacker values. Would you sacrifice the black level or the white level of "normal" content to be able to show those? You certainly would not.

While I do agree with you, it's not so black and white (pun intended). For example, I have come across Sony TVs (KDL-46W4000, for example) that have a feature Sony calls "Superwhite", which makes the TV capable of displaying whites beyond nominal (235) white. The reason why it makes sense for these TVs, as opposed to simply calibrating 235 to be maximum white, is because while the they are capable of displaying these bright whites, they cannot do so in an accurate way - the white point of these "superwhites" is wrong with too much blue, because only the blue channel is capable of reaching this high. So, basically, the TV is accurate up to 235, and is capable of displaying WTW (235-255), but it cannot display WTW accurately. That struck me as an interesting tradeoff, although I don't think it's that useful in practice.

[AngelGraves13]

Upgraded to an X99 build and can actually use NNEDI3 now. 64 seems to be the best choice as it keeps the rendering (max) under 30ms, but 128 does look better, though it hits 40ms sometimes, while staying around 35-38 most of the time. Probably too much, so I use 64.

Guess we'll need new graphics cards to be able to do 256.

[JarrettH]

Is there a profile rule for hevc or h265?

Basically what I want to do is create a profile to disable artifact removal if the file format is hevc.

Does anyone know how to setup a profile like this? :thanks:

Excluding supported formats does not work

if (not h264) or (not MPEG2) "x265"

[iSeries]

I do see a difference with calibration patterns on my Epson projector. I suppose this means that I get better picture while watching a real movie, too.

Calibration patterns, sure. Movies...maybe you do get a 'better' picture. However, whether you can verify that with your eyes is another matter. So, to quote myself, "I'd be amazed if anyone could actually see a difference watching a movie".

[Uoppi]

You're wrong, but you're free to do whatever you want.

By the way, that's not what a top notch quality blu-ray player does. A "top notch quality blu-ray player", and even the crappy ones, output YCbCr over HDMI and the TV converts it to RGB 0-255 internally. BTB and WTW are not remotely necessary to properly adjust the brightness and contrast settings of a TV.

So... based on this the whole chain should be kept on full range (because TVs would internally convert to 0-255 anyway)?

[iSeries]

So... based on this the whole chain should be kept on full range (because TVs would internally convert to 0-255 anyway)?

Who knows is basically the correct answer. Limited range RGB is just as valid as full range, so what a TV does probably varies from brand to brand. A TV typically will convert an RGB signal into YCbCR for it's own processing, before again converting to RGB for display. Whether that ends up as full range or limited, who here knows?

[SweetLow]

There's no such thing as 0-255 YCbCr. The spec is for 16-235 when used over HDMI.
This is not true from HDMI v1.4

[Stereodude]

Who knows is basically the correct answer. Limited range RGB is just as valid as full range, so what a TV does probably varies from brand to brand. A TV typically will convert an RGB signal into YCbCR for it's own processing, before again converting to RGB for display. Whether that ends up as full range or limited, who here knows?
The drivers on the glass work full scale 0-255, 0-64, or 0-1024 depending on the native bit depth of the panel.

This is not true from HDMI v1.4
As opposed to what other version of HDMI? (You're also wrong BTW).

[iSeries]

The drivers on the glass work full scale 0-255, 0-64, or 0-1024 depending on the native bit depth of the panel.

Source please :-) If that's the case why are so many TVs not capable of full range RGB input? Also if 0-255 YCbCr is not possible, how does my bluray player pass btb and wtw?

Either way, given that there are two more conversions once RGB reaches a typical TV, I do believe the whole 'issue' is moot. People should choose on 1. The TVs capability and 2. Personal preference. Neither is more important than the other.

[Stereodude]

Source please :-) If that's the case why are so many TVs not capable of full range RGB input? Also if 0-255 YCbCr is not possible, how does my bluray player pass btb and wtw?
The source is any datasheet for a LCD panel. As to the second part of your question, it's precisely possible because YCbCr is 16-235. Where do you think BTB and WTW and are encoded? :confused:

[baii]

Yes live TV with a tuner. Any freeware?

I use WMC but would like something else that uses MadVR.

seem like some combination of kodi, kodi ds player may work, pot player have a tuner setting page as well.

I stop getting live TV and sold my hdhomerun so I cant test~

[James Freeman]

navcairiel,madshi,

Can you please inform me what LAV and madVR does with chroma location, how do they decode and display it.
Is madVR "fixing" or moving the chroma position to a different place to re-align the 0.5 pixel shift?
I see that I have to use at least Billinear scaling for the chroma to display correctly.
What about stand-alone Blu-ray players and TVs, How they handle the 0.5 pixel shift between top and bottom in 4:2:0 MPEG-2/H.264 encoding?

[SweetLow]

As opposed to what other version of HDMI? (You're also wrong BTW).
1. Opposed to 1.3, of course.
2. Are you read standard to make such statement second time?

[Sunset1982]

Does MadVR already support DolbyVision HDR? Will it support it in future?

[James Freeman]

Have you a way to play UHD discs on your PC?

[iSeries]

The source is any datasheet for a LCD panel. As to the second part of your question, it's precisely possible because YCbCr is 16-235. Where do you think BTB and WTW and are encoded? :confused:

Alright, what about my LG plasma? Says nothing in the data sheet about this. But even if that's true for every TV out there, the fact that it converts an RGB signal (whether 16-235 or 0-255) to YCbCr (which you say IS only 16-235) for it's own processing, before converting AGAIN to RGB, why is sending full RGB such a good idea?

Anyway this is all OT.

[James Freeman]

Who knows is basically the correct answer. Limited range RGB is just as valid as full range, so what a TV does probably varies from brand to brand. A TV typically will convert an RGB signal into YCbCR for it's own processing, before again converting to RGB for display. Whether that ends up as full range or limited, who here knows?


That is what I experience with the Panasonic ST60, I can't play with the Hue and Saturation of the secondary colors (magenta, cyan, yellow) in RGB, it's grayed out.
Also the smoothest gradient and colors are when the GPU sends YCbCr 4:4:4 Limited to the TV.
So the processor of the TV is definitely in YCbCr.

When I'm done with Brightness and Contrast calibration I switch to MadVR Full -> GPU YCbCr444 -> TV Limited.
Nvidia doing an excellent job converting RGB to YCbCr.

[Stereodude]

1. Opposed to 1.3, of course.
2. Are you read standard to make such statement second time?
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/hdmi_1_4_faq.aspx#1 Where's the mention of redefining the definition of YCbCr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCbCr)?

[SweetLow]

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/hdmi_1_4_faq.aspx#1 Where's the mention of redefining the definition of YCbCr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCbCr)?
You try to learn _standard_ by FAQ for users? Good luck :D
"YCC Quantization Range".

[VAMET]

Dear Friends

I have installed the newest version of MPC-HC 1.7.10 (x64), madVR 0.90.17 (x86), LAV Filters 0.68.0 (x86/x64) with 3D support.

I have got Intel i5-4690K with MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G connected via HDMI to my receiver Onkyo TX-NR525 and to receiver my TV Samsung UE40H6400. I have configured MPC-HC, madVR, LAV Filters, NVIDIA Control Panel to use Stereoscopic 3D and I have played my 3D ISO 1:1 without any problems. So I have got 3D effect, but English is not my first language, so I use Polish subtitles. I think there is something wrong with subtitles shown on my screen, they are blurred/parted, so my eyes hurts, when I watch such movie. Are there any options or external filters, which I should use instead of those built in MPC-HC?

Which codec should I use in LAV Video to decode? That from NVIDIA?

I would be glad for any help and support.

Thank you in advance.

Sincerely

[Stereodude]

You try to learn _standard_ by FAQ for users? Good luck :D
"YCC Quantization Range".
I'm not trying to learn anything. You're claiming it's a change in HDMI 1.4. I simply pointed out that if it exists it wasn't important enough to make their list of changes in 1.4. Regardless, none of that changes that YCbCr is 16-235 for luma. That's the standard for Rec.709 / BT.709 which is what devices are putting on HDMI.

[e-t172]

I'm not trying to learn anything. You're claiming it's a change in HDMI 1.4. I simply pointed out that if it exists it wasn't important enough to make their list of changes in 1.4. Regardless, none of that changes that YCbCr is 16-235 for luma. That's the standard for Rec.709 / BT.709 which is what devices are putting on HDMI.

I double-checked and I'm afraid SweetLow is technically correct. It's in section 6.6 "Video Quantization Ranges" of the HDMI 1.4 spec:

If the sink’s EDID declares a selectable YCC Quantization Range (QY=1), then it shall expect limited range pixel values if it receives AVI YQ=0 and it shall expect full range pixel values if it receives AVI YQ=1.

Table 6-3 goes on to explain that in the limited range case, Y is 16-235 and CbCr is 16-240, while in the full range case, Y is 0-255 and CbCr is 0-255.

Meanwhile, the HDMI 1.3a spec only states that YCbCr full range is "not allowed" (HDMI 1.3a, §6.6, table 6-3), so it's clearly new in HDMI 1.4.

Whether there are real HDMI devices out there that actually support this "selectable quantization range" feature is still an open question, though.

[Georgel]

I wonder what the next version of madVR will bring to the table ?

[James Freeman]

a food for thought
a thought to ponder
a pondering heart
a heart to dare
a daring new madVR build.

Some poetry while we wait... :D

[Warner306]

I wonder what the next version of madVR will bring to the table ?

Don't know. If we quit asking what's next, maybe madshi would release a stable version. It already does everything I would want it to.

[Nabukodonosor]

I have a problem with this great renderer. I breaks a lot. I've attached my bug report. Please help. Thanks

[Georgel]

Don't know. If we quit asking what's next, maybe madshi would release a stable version. It already does everything I would want it to.

I don't believe in perfection.

All versions have been fairly stable for me.

As long as things always improve, there is no need to release a final or a best version, but to keep improving.

New interesting things that can be added are all around the place. Even more now with more powerful GPUs coming.

EDIT ::: Maybe, at some point, have the render re-draw the image from games, or other applications instead of only MPC-HC. Adding more software it can work with would be interesting.

[SweetLow]

I'm not trying to learn anything.
But take responsibility to declare that someone is wrong. No more questions.

[ashlar42]

I heard madshi planned on making a "add black bars" feature, but I'm not sure if it's still is on the table or not.

If that feature never sees the light of day, is there a smooth way to manually add black bars to a movie by encoding it? E.g., encode a movie in 2.35:1 format (1920x816) and add black borders so the result is 16:9 (1920x1080).

This would be great since subtitles are non-proportional and smaller when rendered on non-1080p content with XySubFilter.madshi definitely stated it was coming. We just need to be patient.

[XMonarchY]

How does madVR compare to FBI/CIA high-tech software used to magnify photos, zoom-in and clean-up images from a barely discernable state to a very clear/clean state? Or is it only in movies / TV Shows?

[nevcairiel]

How does madVR compare to FBI/CIA high-tech software used to magnify photos, zoom-in and clean-up images from a barely discernable state to a very clear/clean state? Or is it only in movies / TV Shows?

Offline processing where you can spend seconds or even minutes on a single image is always going to have quite different possibilities not achieveable in realtime video playback.

But most of that is TV only anyway.

[leeperry]

Offline processing where you can spend seconds or even minutes on a single image is always going to have quite different possibilities not achieveable in realtime video playback.

But most of that is TV only anyway.

It's my impression that the CSI tvshow created a myth that simply does not exist, we've all seen CCTV pictures of terrorists in the news and PQ is no better than bilinear.

But then again this looks impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lQgpHg3VKs made using https://www.motiondsp.com/ikena-forensic/

But much like vinyl declicking/denoising audio demos that are always hard to believe, either intel agencies don't share those processed pictures at all or it's all a bunch of bs.

[baii]

I am no expert but I think even if they have some advanced image processing technique, they are probably looking for different thing like pattern or letter recognition, not to look good for the eyes.
And there is no magic out there, as you are always limited by pixels and TV often shown they can make thing out of nothing.

Sent from my 306SH using Tapatalk

[leeperry]

The big theory is called Super-Resolution as I understand it and it uses informations from previous frames in order to increase details but I have yet to see it used IRL and especially disclosed by intel agencies so again either it's all a big theoretical myth or they refuse to share the results possibly due to NDA's. Not something that will happen in real-time using mVR anyway so case closed I guess, NNEDI3 is as good as it's gonna get for our GPU's.

[Stereodude]

But take responsibility to declare that someone is wrong. No more questions.
Yes, yes... I was wrong. They added support for a non standardized YCbCr format in HDMI 1.4.

Now we can all be friends again.

[70MM]

In the middle of a film the other day an update came up on my screen, I just said yes to it thinking it was for JRiver...
Two days later felt my image was looking softer, I opened up madvr to discover the version was different and many of my settings had changed.
When I went to the sharpness tabs I see that there are extra settings in there Ive never seen, ringing plus others I forget.
Was there a resent update a week ago?
Can these updates arrive while playing a movie?
What are these new settings I see and is there an explanation for them somewhere?

Many thanks...