madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[pankov]

madshi,
I do agree with you but I think there could be a pretty simple solution.
Reclock has an option "Enable events notifications to VBS script when display mode is changing" which enables us to switch modes trough executing commands in RunEvent.vbs. This is the way I and many others used it as refresh rate switcher till now ... but I guess you are familiar with this.
Now my idea is to add some kind of command line interface either to madHcCtrl or a dedicated functions in madVR.ax which we can call through rundll32.exe that will instruct madVR to switch the refresh rate. It's even possible to use the functions for the actual refresh rate switching but simply to signal Reclock's refresh rate to madVR.
What do you think?

[pacemaker1000]

Hi Madshi and thanks for the great work you are doing :thanks:

the inclusion of subtitles in MPC is great by the way.

is there a reason why it is taking so long to get DVD playback in MPC with Win7. this would make the MPC/Madvr combination the complete solution!

i currently use it with reclock and its built in refresh change software (using displaychanger) and am really happy as at last i have stutter free quality playback :)

[leeperry]

It would be much cleaner and better for everyone if Reclock would open up a little bit and allow other filters to inform themselves about what Reclock is doing exactly.
Indeed, but Reclock takes forever to measure the refresh rate and decide whether some adaptation could be applied...that happens long after the video's started playing. There's the VBS script for those that believe in automatic refresh rate switches, but that freezes mVR atm :o

[pacemaker1000]

Indeed, but Reclock takes forever to measure the refresh rate and decide whether some adaptation could be applied...that happens long after the video's started playing. There's the VBS script for those that believe in automatic refresh rate switches, but that freezes mVR atm :o

sorry to hijack this thread but as you seem up on refresh changes can i ask for your advice?
i have been struggling for weeks to get any form of auto refresh working correctly along with MediaBrowser. i tried 'autofrequency' but that crashes periodically and dislplaychanger wont work in MB in fullscreen. i only last night discovered reclock and its vbscript which although slow does seem to work every time.
i would be interested on your feedback and if you have a better solution :thanks:

[leeperry]

if you have a better solution
sorry, I don't. I use my brain™ to choose the right refresh rate/resolution...no algorithm can detect genuine PAL or sped up cinema NTSC, so that more or less settles it :p

[madshi]

I do agree with you but I think there could be a pretty simple solution.
Reclock has an option "Enable events notifications to VBS script when display mode is changing" which enables us to switch modes trough executing commands in RunEvent.vbs. This is the way I and many others used it as refresh rate switcher till now ... but I guess you are familiar with this.
Now my idea is to add some kind of command line interface either to madHcCtrl or a dedicated functions in madVR.ax which we can call through rundll32.exe that will instruct madVR to switch the refresh rate. It's even possible to use the functions for the actual refresh rate switching but simply to signal Reclock's refresh rate to madVR.
What do you think?
Indeed, but Reclock takes forever to measure the refresh rate and decide whether some adaptation could be applied...that happens long after the video's started playing. There's the VBS script for those that believe in automatic refresh rate switches, but that freezes mVR atm :o
Yeah, leeperry is right. I need the information before the video starts. If, before the video starts, Reclock doesn't even know itself what it will do then there's no way to make it work with the current version of the madVR display mode changer.

[yesgrey]

If, before the video starts, Reclock doesn't even know itself what it will do then there's no way to make it work with the current version of the madVR display mode changer.
Well, probably you will not like the idea very much, but how about adding an option to madVR like "Treat 25 fps sources as 24 fps". I know it's not a very user friendly option, but it would solve the problem... ;)

[fairchild]

Doesn't happen for me. Where is your mouse cursor located when you tell the media player to go full screen? Is the mouse cursor under the video window? Try moving the mouse cursor above to the top of the screen before going fullscreen. Does that "fix" the problem? Not saying you should have to do that. Just trying to figure out where the problem is coming from...

Yep that fixes it for me. If the mouse cursor is towards the top of video, then it works fine and the seek bar doesn't load and stay stuck. If you go fullscreen with the mouse being at the bottm of the video or even below the media player (as well as being to the side), then the seek bar loads and stays stuck until you move the mouse.

[pacemaker1000]

sorry, I don't. I use my brain™ to choose the right refresh rate/resolution...no algorithm can detect genuine PAL or sped up cinema NTSC, so that more or less settles it :p

:)

sorry i am a noob. i thought all pal dvd's were sped up and i dont have much if any ntsc stuff.
i am trying to make it family friendly :)

[nevcairiel]

Not all PAL is speed up, if the content was produced in a PAL country, it was recorded at 25 fps (mostly TV shows). Also some DVDs are speed up properly, without chipmunking the audio - there really is no all in one solution for PAL.

[pacemaker1000]

Not all PAL is speed up, if the content was produced in a PAL country, it was recorded at 25 fps (mostly TV shows). Also some DVDs are speed up properly, without chipmunking the audio - there really is no all in one solution for PAL.

thanks for that
i realised TV was ok but not DVD's
i assume they are few so i will probably stick to treating them all as sped up but will now listen out for it

is madvr coming to dvd soon? i hope so :-)

[decapitado]

What is the "glitch hack" for?
I don´t notice anything different being on or off.

[suanm]

Playback is still so unsmoothly with madvr 0.57 and 0.58 version,But seems not to stutter(Because dialogues in movie sound not to be stuck,drop frames too seriously,though).It works nearly perfectly with madvr 0.56 version when I set "present only one frame at a time" as what you said before .The effect by using 0.48 or 0.49 version seems better than by using 0.56(perhaps personally prefer 0.49 to 0.56 ),thank you ,madshi,anyways

[suanm]

I just now did test with 0.56 version,I set "present only one frame at a time", meanwhile I set backbuffers to 5,not default 3 .with 0.56 version playback seems so smooth as with 0.49,hardly drops frame anymore.

[ajp_anton]

About the "phantom seekbar":
It seems that my way of reproducing it wasn't 100% accurate. Still not completely sure, but here's what I've observed:
If the cursor is left *below* a certain line, this glitch happens. The position of this line seems to depend on the size of the movie window when in windowed mode. The smaller it is, the higher this line is (and therefore easier to reproduce). So when trying to figure it out, try using like a 50% zoom or something on an already low res video, and switch between that and exclusive mode.

[madshi]

Well, probably you will not like the idea very much, but how about adding an option to madVR like "Treat 25 fps sources as 24 fps". I know it's not a very user friendly option, but it would solve the problem... ;)
Would that solve the problem for everybody?

Playback is still so unsmoothly with madvr 0.57 and 0.58 version
Just continue testing new versions. Maybe the next one will work better for you?

[pacemaker1000]

is there a way to get older versions to test?

[nevcairiel]

is there a way to get older versions to test?

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/madVR/old-versions#download

[mr.duck]

Pardon my ignorance but could/should madVR support speeding up or slowing down playback to better match display refresh rate? Is this something madVR could take care of? For example, if it's film material at 24 FPS, I would just rather play it at 25 FPS. Not going to notice that it's running faster or with higher pitch than should be audio.

[madshi]

Pardon my ignorance but could/should madVR support speeding up or slowing down playback to better match display refresh rate? Is this something madVR could take care of? For example, if it's film material at 24 FPS, I would just rather play it at 25 FPS. Not going to notice that it's running faster or with higher pitch than should be audio.
Playing video faster/slower is no problem in itself for madVR at all. However, audio/video sync would get lost this way. If you want to speed up or slow down a movie you *have* to resample audio (or run the DAC at a different samplerate). madVR has no influence on the audio at all, so this is not something madVR can ever do.

[someone`]

How about "force fake 25fps in media type" like in Haali splitter ? I think it's best for reclock user , 23,976 --> 24 or 25 fps , 29.970 --> 30 fps , etc ... or better you can choose whatever fake fps you want .

[madshi]

How about "force fake 25fps in media type" like in Haali splitter ? I think it's best for reclock user , 23,976 --> 24 or 25 fps , 29.970 --> 30 fps , etc ... or better you can choose whatever fake fps you want .
If you only enter 1080p24 but not 1080p23 then madVR will switch to 1080p24 for both 23.976 and 24.000 movies. So a 23.976 -> 24.000 switch should not be necessary. Same with 29.970.

[Andy o]

Would that solve the problem for everybody?

Sure, if it's a quickly accessible option ;)

[yesgrey]

Would that solve the problem for everybody?
Yes. Even though people would still have to check/uncheck it depending on the media source being film / video, at least it would allow the resolution switching to work with reclock.

The best would be if madVR could detect if it's a film or video, but considering that some films (few) are pitch corrected that would be impossible.

[pacemaker1000]

am i missing something?

i love madvr for its colour/quality/sharpness etc but i can and only use it for avi's (+ sd dvd i hope soon, hint hint).
any frame rate adjuxtment i need to be done with all my material bluray included which is why i use reclock

[dansrfe]

am i missing something?

i love madvr for its colour/quality/sharpness etc but i can and only use it for avi's (+ sd dvd i hope soon, hint hint).
any frame rate adjuxtment i need to be done with all my material bluray included which is why i use reclock

Read the last 100 pages or so and everything will make sense :D

[pacemaker1000]

Read the last 100 pages or so and everything will make sense :D

oh come on have a heart :)

[madshi]

Yes. Even though people would still have to check/uncheck it depending on the media source being film / video, at least it would allow the resolution switching to work with reclock.
Currently madVR does not do deinterlacing. So deinterlacing must be done before sending the video stream to madVR. If deinterlacing is done properly, madVR will receive 25p for movies and 50p for video content. So in theory there should be no need for you to switch that option on/off. You'd just need to configure deinterlacing properly.

@leeperry, do you agree that yesgrey's suggestion would be a solution that makes everyone happy? I know you always have special wishes, so just to make sure... :p

am i missing something?

i love madvr for its colour/quality/sharpness etc but i can and only use it for avi's (+ sd dvd i hope soon, hint hint).
any frame rate adjuxtment i need to be done with all my material bluray included which is why i use reclock
If you do not see a need for madVR's display mode switching then don't use it. It's disabled by default, anyway. So nothing for you to worry about. :)

[robpdotcom]

Currently madVR does not do deinterlacing.

I love when you leave these little hints.:p

[leeperry]

@leeperry, do you agree that yesgrey's suggestion would be a solution that makes everyone happy? I know you always have special wishes, so just to make sure... :p
you're such a tease sometimes madshi :p ...you know I crave for LUT rolling options, that's pretty much my only real special wish atm. With something like 23.976/24 = SMPTE-C, 29.97 = REC-709, and 25 = EBU of course. Now that would *ROCK* hard.

I don't see a point to have a 25@24 option tbh...what's up if you're watching genuine PAL? you will have to uncheck it, close the player, open it again, wait for the display to resynchronize....when a simple pstrip/DisplayChanger command can change the refresh rate in the blink of an eye.

I've got all the refresh rate switches I need in the start menu, it goes like:
dc.exe -width=1280 -height=720 -refresh=96 -depth=32 -quiet -apply

I don't see how a 25@24 option would make everyone happy...but I'm not everyone :p

I still find it much easier to let Reclock do the job, as it's pretty much the only app that can decide. If I know my stuff is PAL, I run in a 25Hz multiple...if I know it's sped up cinema NTSC, I run in a 24Hz multiple.

Usually when I'm going to watch movies, I run 48/96Hz...I don't care if the file is 23.976/24/25, Reclock will take care of things for me. And if the ppl sound like they're on valium(it happened once w/ some BBC shorts), then I simply click on my 25Hz multiple DisplayChanger shortcut in the start menu, et voila :)

[yesgrey]

If deinterlacing is done properly, madVR will receive 25p for movies and 50p for video content. So in theory there should be no need for you to switch that option on/off. You'd just need to configure deinterlacing properly.
As usual, you always see a little further... :)

[Andy o]

If deinterlacing is done properly, madVR will receive 25p for movies and 50p for video content. So in theory there should be no need for you to switch that option on/off. You'd just need to configure deinterlacing properly.

There's a lot of original 25p content though, which hasn't been sped up. They're not filmed at 50p (nor the files are at that rate).

[deptel]

Please double check that anti-aliasing, anisotropic filtering etc are all set to "application decides" (or however that option is named exactly). Do not force anti-aliasing or anisotropic filtering, that doesn't improve image quality for madVR one bit, but it may lower performance quite a bit.

I feel kinda dumb, In catalyst control I was always looking at the video tab, and had not thought to look in the gaming tab, it turns out, that the setting causing the issue was "Morphological Filtering" which is under Anti-Aliasing (it still causes the problem even when use application settings is chosen).

So yeah, thats totally sorted now, and I'm playing perfect again.

Thanks a lot Madshi, as always !

[fairchild]

I feel kinda dumb, In catalyst control I was always looking at the video tab, and had not thought to look in the gaming tab, it turns out, that the setting causing the issue was "Morphological Filtering" which is under Anti-Aliasing (it still causes the problem even when use application settings is chosen).

So yeah, thats totally sorted now, and I'm playing perfect again.

Thanks a lot Madshi, as always !

Morphological Filtering basically is to force AA for those games that don't have AA and are so stubborn that forcing it through the AA tab in CCC doesn't work. So basically, even if you have Application Control selected, but then have MF checked it will apply AA.

[SamuriHL]

Just got around to finally testing the glitch hack on both my HTPC's. 0 dropped frames on either machine. On my nVidia machine I tested multiple resolutions and it was flawless with the current configuration. I'm very pleased. :)

[madshi]

I love when you leave these little hints.:p
:) Don't read too much into that, though. I'm not saying that deinterlacing will ever come. I'm just leaving it open as an option for the future.

As usual, you always see a little further... :)
I try to... :)

I don't see a point to have a 25@24 option tbh...what's up if you're watching genuine PAL? you will have to uncheck it, close the player, open it again, wait for the display to resynchronize....
There's a lot of original 25p content though, which hasn't been sped up. They're not filmed at 50p (nor the files are at that rate).
:(

So no simple solution for everything, it appears.

when a simple pstrip/DisplayChanger command can change the refresh rate in the blink of an eye.

I've got all the refresh rate switches I need in the start menu, it goes like:
dc.exe -width=1280 -height=720 -refresh=96 -depth=32 -quiet -apply

I don't see how a 25@24 option would make everyone happy...but I'm not everyone :p

I still find it much easier to let Reclock do the job, as it's pretty much the only app that can decide. If I know my stuff is PAL, I run in a 25Hz multiple...if I know it's sped up cinema NTSC, I run in a 24Hz multiple.
That's all nice and fine. But it still requires you to do manual tweaking. The ultimate solution would be some kind of automation, which you currently not have. Maybe it will never be possible to achieve 100% automation if only a human can decide which video file must be played back how, but I think for most people 100% automation should be possible, and for the remaining people at least some things should be "automatable". E.g. one solution would be to let madVR do a best guess and then give you keyboard shortcuts to tell madVR to correct its guess. But that's for a (further away) future version.

I feel kinda dumb, In catalyst control I was always looking at the video tab, and had not thought to look in the gaming tab, it turns out, that the setting causing the issue was "Morphological Filtering" which is under Anti-Aliasing (it still causes the problem even when use application settings is chosen).

So yeah, thats totally sorted now, and I'm playing perfect again.
Good to hear. The thing is: madVR really does behave more like a game than a video player. Because of that the video tab is mostly without effect while the gaming tab is important.

Just got around to finally testing the glitch hack on both my HTPC's. 0 dropped frames on either machine. On my nVidia machine I tested multiple resolutions and it was flawless with the current configuration. I'm very pleased. :)
:)

[Mark_A_W]

Surely editing the filename with a prompt for madVR (like "24p" or "50p"), would keep leeperry happy?

I can't see anyway that a automated system can see "through" PAL to see 24p, etc.


(Just stick to Bluray. PAL/25p/50i is dead - and I live in a PAL country.)

[ryrynz]

Speaking of keyboard shortcuts in a future version Madshi, I would love to see the following shortcuts added.

Display seek bar
Display time remaining
Display file name

Thanks!

As usual, you always see a little further... :)

It's a gift.

[mr.duck]

If you want to speed up or slow down a movie you *have* to resample audio (or run the DAC at a different samplerate). madVR has no influence on the audio at all, so this is not something madVR can ever do.
Time for madAR (audio renderer)?? :devil:



(Just stick to Bluray. PAL/25p/50i is dead - and I live in a PAL country.)

NTSC is the worst. Please die in fire. But my monitor doesn't do 24 Hz. I was so pleased when I found out it did 50Hz. PAL isn't dead. 50i is great.

[pacemaker1000]

madshi,
I do agree with you but I think there could be a pretty simple solution.
Reclock has an option "Enable events notifications to VBS script when display mode is changing" which enables us to switch modes trough executing commands in RunEvent.vbs. This is the way I and many others used it as refresh rate switcher till now ... but I guess you are familiar with this.
Now my idea is to add some kind of command line interface either to madHcCtrl or a dedicated functions in madVR.ax which we can call through rundll32.exe that will instruct madVR to switch the refresh rate. It's even possible to use the functions for the actual refresh rate switching but simply to signal Reclock's refresh rate to madVR.
What do you think?

i would be very interested in a working script for reclock as mine crashes. also where is the madvr one?

i know i keep banging on about it but please please tell me if dvd support in win7 will be coming and if so when?
this would allow me to use mpc/madvd for everything other than bluray and i suppose promote the use of the madvr switching tool (if i can figure it out :confused:) as my bluray player launches at 23.976 anyway
going by what i have learned off here recently this could be as close as you are going to get to an auto refersh rate system

i look forward to some informative replies and hopfuly i wont have to spen another night screaming at my HTPC :thanks:

[6233638]

Surely editing the filename with a prompt for madVR (like "24p" or "50p"), would keep leeperry happy?

I can't see anyway that a automated system can see "through" PAL to see 24p, etc.


(Just stick to Bluray. PAL/25p/50i is dead - and I live in a PAL country.)Perhaps go by file length?

Anything over say 70-80 minutes is almost certainly film-based, and anything under 70-80 minutes is almost certainly video.

It doesn't get around what to do with PAL releases of US shows, but on Blu-ray at least I don't know of any US shows released as 25p.

Perhaps resolution should also be a factor. I can't think of anything released in 1080 over 70-80 minutes in length that should be played back at 50Hz.

So:
1. Anything over 70-80 minutes in length is assumed to be 24p, regardless of resolution.
2. Anything HD under 70-80 minutes in length is assumed to be 25p.
3. Anything SD under 70-80 minutes in length is a user preference. (24p in my case)


Unfortunately you still need to change reclock manually as I don't think it supports that kind of automation.

[mr.duck]

I can't think of anything released in 1080 over 70-80 minutes in length that should be played back at 50Hz.

What about TV?? When we eventually switch off the analog TV we will have loads off content that needs to be played at 50Hz! Blu ray on the other hand... I doubt I will ever buy a blu ray disk in my lifetime.

[nevcairiel]

HD TV in PAL Countries is still broadcast as 50i or 25p (or even 50p sometimes), there really is no automated solution to cover all cases

The Blu-ray spec also does allow for 25p/50i content, and there are movies produced in PAL countries that might be native 25p content, especially when dealing with old movies remastered onto Blu-rays.

[6233638]

What about TV?? When we eventually switch off the analog TV we will have loads off content that needs to be played at 50Hz! Blu ray on the other hand... I doubt I will ever buy a blu ray disk in my lifetime.What television programmes are there produced in HD at 25p specifically for the PAL market, over 70-80 minutes in length?

The Blu-ray spec also does allow for 25p/50i content, and there are movies produced in PAL countries that might be native 25p content, especially when dealing with old movies remastered onto Blu-rays.Even when produced in PAL territories, films are shot for the cinema. With perhaps one or two extremely rare edge-cases it's a safe assumption that films released in HD are all shot at 24p.


I can see no other way, short of creating a huge database, of automating the process.

This would take care of most scenarios, and you would either manually override it or disable automation if it does not suit you.

[nevcairiel]

What television programmes are there produced in HD at 25p specifically for the PAL market, over 70-80 minutes in length?

Sports - we get them either in 1080i50, 1080p25, or 720p50, depending what each broadcaster prefers to go with (although the 25p is rather rare, i admit)

There are also movies produced for TV, not for cinema, which tend to be HD in these days as well - or just the occasional double-feature special of a TV Series.

My point is just that you will never find some external attributes that fully define such content - there is just too much different content around in the wild.

[Andy o]

Mark_A_W's suggestion seems the better one. And madVR does it already, right? I forgot about it. Can't test right now cause I'm trying to install the damn SP1 on Win 7 for like the 10th time.

[6233638]

Sports - we get them either in 1080i50, 1080p25, or 720p50, depending what each broadcaster prefers to go with (although the 25p is rather rare, i admit)

There are also movies produced for TV, not for cinema, which tend to be HD in these days as well - or just the occasional double-feature special of a TV Series.Surely if you know that you watch a lot of sports you would simply disable the 24/25p logic rather than suggest that there should be no kind of automation at all.

Are people really recording a lot of broadcast sports and watching them in MadVR? I do not watch sports but I thought that most of it which is worth watching is broadcast encrypted on premium channels anyway.


As for made-for-TV films, I expect most would still be shot at 24p to allow for worldwide distribution (3:2 in NTSC territories, sped-up for PAL as with most film) and again, if you watch a lot of it, disable the logic and let the 'dumb' switcher change to 50Hz.

My point is just that you will never find some external attributes that fully define such content - there is just too much different content around in the wild.I never said that it would cover *everything* just that it makes the most amount of sense.


1. Assume that 1080 content over 70-80 minutes in length is 24p sourced. The vast majority of content this length, excluding sports, is going to be 24p-sourced film. There are a fair number of films released in Blu-ray at 1080i50 which are all 24p sourced and all films are sped up to 25p for broadcast if you want to include recordings.

2. Assume that all 576 content over 70-80 minutes in length is 24p sourced. Once again, this is most likely to be a film.

3. Assume that 1080 content under 70-80 minutes in length is 50Hz. This is likely to be content created specifically for the PAL market as NTSC television content typically does not get released at 50Hz in HD.

4. Give the user preference for 576 content under 70-80 minutes in length as this could either be content created for the PAL market or NTSC shows sped up. There is no way to know what is going to be common here for an individual. In my case it would exclusively be US content that should be played back at 24Hz.


In fact all of these could be preferences but I think that covers most scenarios, and these make the most sense as defaults.

Mark_A_W's suggestion seems the better one. And madVR does it already, right? I forgot about it. Can't test right now cause I'm trying to install the damn SP1 on Win 7 for like the 10th time.
Everything I watch in MadVR is either straight off a Blu-ray disc or DVD. I do not rip to mkv or download films, so I do not have the option of renaming files.

Having some kind of internal logic to determine what a file should be played back at would be far more useful. That's not to say that there shouldn't also be the option for looking at filenames (should take priority over anything else) or the option to disable this logic to use a 'dumb' switcher. (24p at 24Hz or multiples, 25p/50i at 50Hz, 30p/60i at 60Hz)

It seems to make sense to have some kind of logic there that covers the majority of typical-use scenarios for MadVR. (which would seem to primarily be film)

[pacemaker1000]

hi
i am using mpc/madvr

when i use reclock to change refresh rate i get dreadful stutter in windowed mode (works fine in fullscreen exclusive)
applying the glitch hack fixes it but nest time i load its back and then unticking the glitch hack fixes it. and so on :confused:

works fine without using the reclock refresh rate changer

i dont understand why using a vbscript can do anything other than just change refrresh rate as, and off topic, running the same script screws up TMT3 with its latest patch

cheers

[noee]

It's a timing issue. Reclock can't call the notifydisplaychange.exe until it knows the info and by that time, the video is already playing for some time and some number of frames and the video renderer has no information from Reclock (as has already been discussed) and has to then adjust to the fact that some external process (the VBS) has changed/is changing the refresh rate.

[Razoola]

Is it not possible for the madVR traytool to launch a movie with a switch to choose framerate. Basicallly in the traytool one would set the position of the media player. The traytool can set everything up in relation to screenchanges and refresh rate before the player is even launched by having options in the menu (launcd DVD at 24, or launch dvd at 25 for example).