madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[kostik]

AMD supports at least 12 bit, it's what I have my TV set to:

http://oi61.tinypic.com/nbvm3d.jpg

So having an option to stop at 12 bit would be great :).

I have 12bit working on Pioneer Kuro through registry hack on Nvidia Drivers.:sly:
Wish someday we would have a choice to dither to 12bit/10bit instead 8bit.
Does your Samsung tv acknowledge this 12bit? you see it on OSD?
The strange thing is that I can't force Nvidia to output 16-235. If Nvidia outputs 0-255 my Kuro OSD says I use xvYCC601 while when using 16-235 it uses xvYCC709 :\
BTW I had AMD card years ago and it did output 10/12 bit to my tv without tweaking

[nevcairiel]

My TV claims to get 12-bit from my NVIDIA card today, but that doesn't really change anything, as its impossible to conclusively prove if it would actually get more than 8-bit, or if its just padded to 12-bit.
Not to mention that madVR only does 8-bit, so there your adventure ends anyway.

[dennis]

I get subjectively much more "lively" and detailed picture if I only check P016 in LAV filters. However if i understand correctly this is not the format which the file is encoded in. Does this mean that the picture is actually less accurate relative to the source?

Visually it looks much better with P016 but if the source is encoded to hold NV12, this must be some sort of artifact from the decoder?

[huhn]

have you compared screenshoots?

sending nv12 as p016 is simply adding a lot of zeros. and is most likely the first step madVR does anyway so there should be no difference at all.

you are talking about a lot so a screen should this clear.

[nevcairiel]

Conversion from NV12 to P016 is done using the swscale library in LAV, its not entirely clear what it does to achieve this, its certainly possible it somehow messes the conversion up, resulting in a slightly different image. Its absolutely not a recommended output configuration.

[dennis]

NV12
http://s22.postimg.org/qcvc3xou5/NV12.png (http://postimg.org/image/qcvc3xou5/)

P016
http://s22.postimg.org/jjuz7ny0t/P016.png (http://postimg.org/image/jjuz7ny0t/)

At the shoulder of the brown jacket the P016 one has a smoother transition from light to dark. This is the most pronounced example I could find. I think it is easier to see when the pictures are moving.

[dennis]

But you dont get more information from the decoder this way? Because the decoder would teoretically benefit from higher precision.

[nevcairiel]

There is no extra information to give. Decoders are strictly specified to produce the perfect output format, the same format as was input to the decoder.

[ryrynz]

At the shoulder of the brown jacket the P016 one has a smoother transition from light to dark. This is the most pronounced example I could find. I think it is easier to see when the pictures are moving.

As a rule when comparing anything PQ related you really want to use the same frame and not compress them with JPEG. Regardless of this, comparing them shows no difference in colors on my monitor. Also as Nev said, there's no technical reason why there should be any difference.

[Anime Viewer]

NV12
http://s22.postimg.org/qcvc3xou5/NV12.png (http://postimg.org/image/qcvc3xou5/)

P016
http://s22.postimg.org/jjuz7ny0t/P016.png (http://postimg.org/image/jjuz7ny0t/)

At the shoulder of the brown jacket the P016 one has a smoother transition from light to dark. This is the most pronounced example I could find. I think it is easier to see when the pictures are moving.

Like ryrynz said comparing exact frames is preferred since light angles can effect things. I don't know if I notice a difference in the color of the jacket in those two pictures (maybe the lighting), but I do notice a difference in the brown briefcase the guy is holding and the and the woman's orange/brown purse. However I don't know if that can be attributed to color instead of the angle of the objects and lighting in the scene or not. I'm not surprised you'd see a difference in coloring depending on which of those LAV boxes you have checked/unchecked since they deal with color conversion. madVR and MPC can each have its own effect on colors too depending on what settings you use. If you like the picture better when watching with P016 then stick with it. If you want to know about the difference and effects P016 has on it you're probably better posting about it in the LAV forum.

[leeperry]

the brown jacket the P016 one has a smoother transition from light to dark. This is the most pronounced example I could find.
Using a proper test pattern (https://mega.co.nz/#!W8xiwI6T!DvWehQXLZeRP41mYAFqQhT5h31HDPtCus1t33fVgjnM) might shed some lights ;)

[nekromantik]

Doubt you'd notice a difference with this enabled anyway, ordered dithering with colored noise is awesome I did some picture comparison tests
and decided to keep ordered enabled because the speed hit wasn't worth it for something I couldn't see without comparison tools.

Yeah am happy with result.

Whats the best settings for output color in LAV?
Only RGB modes?

[huhn]

Yeah am happy with result.

Whats the best settings for output color in LAV?
Only RGB modes?

RGB only is worst leave it as it is. untouched is best.if RGB would be best Lavfilter would output it.

[Asmodian]

I agree; LAV defaults are optimal for madVR. That is why they are set that way. :)

[octal9]

NV12
http://s22.postimg.org/qcvc3xou5/NV12.png (http://postimg.org/image/qcvc3xou5/)

P016
http://s22.postimg.org/jjuz7ny0t/P016.png (http://postimg.org/image/jjuz7ny0t/)

At the shoulder of the brown jacket the P016 one has a smoother transition from light to dark. This is the most pronounced example I could find. I think it is easier to see when the pictures are moving.personally, when i blow this up in my browser, the PO16 looks worse - it emphasises the macroblocking without adding any detail/color enhancement i can see - definitely not a good idea.......

[ryrynz]

PO16 looks worse - it emphasises the macroblocking without adding any detail/color enhancement i can see.

The PO16 output has nothing to do with emphasis of anything IQ related. There's no difference between these images that can't be attributed to it simply being a different frame. For the hell of it I took a full HD video and output it via NV12 and PO16 and compared with Beyond Compare for visual analysis. There were no visual differences whatsoever, the only changes being due to dithering variations.

Discussing this further is most likely pointless as it's most likely a placebo and cannot be replicated.

[dennis]

Thanks for the clarifications.

I agree that it probably is most likely that the video is specified for NV12. So added precision would not change the outcome, since it will distort the original spec.

[Manni]

Hi everyone,

I've reported this bug on Madshi's website and in the LAV thread, but I thought I'd post here as well just in case someone can reproduce/offer advice.

Using AMD 7870 in Win8.1 Pro x64 with MCE.

When I leave the auto display mode line blank in the MadVR settings, DVD playback works fine (although at the wrong refresh rate if I don't use another way to set it).

As soon as I populate the line with valid refresh rates for my display (a JVC X30 / RS45), MadVR switches to the correct refresh rate automatically (50hz for PAL or 59hz for NTSC) as expected but I end up with a black screen and the video paused and no way to resume it. I use 1080p23 as default, and the valid refresh rates are 1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59 and 1080p60.

The only way to get DVD playback when using the MadVR auto display mode feature is to switch h/w acceleration in LAV Video settings from none to DXVA2 native.

I'm using KCP Black 0.5 but I can reproduce this if I install the latest LAV+MadVR+MPC-HCV or MPC-BE, so not related to KCP or to a specific player.

I'm playing DVD folders from MyMovies with the /dvd switch, but the same thing happens if I play a DVD folder directly.

I'm not sure if this is a MadVR or a LAV bug/incompatibility, or if there is a way to explain this behaviour.

h/w acceleration in LAV isn't recommended and I'm getting some dropped frames, so I'd like to know how to solve this.

Any idea?

[hello_hello]

I recall having the same black screen problem myself when I tried changing refresh rates automatically. I think I tried it back before MPC-HC used LAV for decoding, and MPC-HC would invariable crash. Sorry, I don't have the answer as I don't use MadVR regularly.

I use Reclock to change the frame rate instead of changing refresh rates. The TV stays refreshing at 50Hz and I watch everything at 25fps. It'll re-sample the audio so the pitch doesn't change, and at 25fps it takes five minutes or so less to sit through a crappy movie. ;) And there's no NTCS judder. Of course for 29.97fps progressive or interlaced there's too much of a difference to change it to 25fps so it's not ideal, but I have very little of that.

My CRT monitor and TV use different refresh rates. For some reason if I open a video on the CRT and drag it over to the TV, Reclock is sometimes oblivious to the refresh rate change if MadVR is rendering. I need to re-open the video to reset it. I don't know why and it only happens with MadVR (the main reason I don't use it).

Hardware decoding (old 8600GT video card) is pretty good for me (MadVR default settings, CUDA and XP). No dropped frames. Maybe Reclock helps. Well if I stop/start playback or change the video size all bets are off, but it settles down again quickly. I know some people view hardware decoding as evil but for me it's generally worked well. My video card can be a bit fussy when it comes to resizing and VMR9. For some reason MPC-HC's Bicubic resizing causes tearing. The more resizing involved, the more likely it'll happen. It goes away when I switch to Bilinear (PS 2.0). MadVR's default resizing method seems okay. Sorry, I can't help with the dropped frames problem either.

[dansrfe]

I realize that this request may be very insignificant, however would it be possible to add support of high PPI screens for rendering of the OSD and seekbar in madVR under Windows 8.1 somewhere on the roadmap?

[Manni]

I recall having the same black screen problem myself when I tried changing refresh rates automatically. I think I tried it back before MPC-HC used LAV for decoding, and MPC-HC would invariable crash. Sorry, I don't have the answer as I don't use MadVR regularly.


Thanks. Anyone else experiencing this conflict between MadVR and LAV?

[Asmodian]

I notice you say DVD, does it happen with other media types?

I don't have any DVDs (I do own blurays) but I can use LAV with software decoding and MadVR with refresh rate changing enabled, no black screens.

I tested with Zoom Player 9.2, LAV 0.62.0, MadVR v0.87.10. Windows 8.1 x64, Nvidia 340.43, changing between 2560x1440p100, 2560x1440p96 and 2560x1440p90.

[hello_hello]

I just tried again with a few MKVs and AVIs. I set MadVR to use 1080p50 and 1080p60. The first or second refresh rate switch for the TV stopped me from being able to click on anything on my PC monitor for a little bit. Then suddenly it came good. After that it seemed to happily switch refresh rates without a problem. (MadVR says to use OS refresh rates such as 1080p23 or something similar, but they had no effect for me).

I also added 720p50 and 720p60 to the list. The very first switch from 1080p60 to 720p50 resulted in a black screen and I had to use the three fingered solute to shut MPC-HC down, but once again, after that one failure subsequent changes didn't cause the same problem. Go figure.....

I may have remembered incorrectly. When I drag MPC-HC from one screen to another, Reclock does seem to pick up on the change in refresh rate. Unfortunately though, it's icon doesn't change colour as it should. It's invariably yellow when watching video on my CRT (85Hz), and when I drag a video over to the TV it invariably turns green when using MPC-HC and WMR9 (25fps and 50Hz), but it stays yellow unless I re-open the video if MadVR is rendering.

[hello_hello]

I thought I'd try using MPC-HC's full screen resolution/refresh rate option. I just set it so it's switch from 1080p50 to 1080p60 when required. The very first time it changed the refresh rate MPC-HC crashed and the display stopped refreshing on both monitors. I was about to reboot when the display came good again. After that it changed refresh rates without a hiccup at least half a dozen times, then a refresh rate change caused MPC-HC to crash again.
I wonder.... given I seem to have the same problem with both methods of changing refresh rates whether it's not MadVR's fault? Maybe it's drivers, or Windows?

In my case... 8600GT video card and XP. The drivers are at least a couple of years old. I won't upgrade them as I had problems with newer drivers remembering settings for video output and the last drivers I tried seemed to crush the black pretty badly.

I could change resolution and refresh rate all day long if I did it manually.

[clsid]

DVD playback is special due to its content protection (Macrovision). I am almost certain that the black screen is because of that. MPC-HC contains hacks to bypass the macrovision crap, that is why refresh rate changing works in MPC-HC. It can probably be fixed in madVR by doing something similar.

The decoder is unrelated to the problem. The reason why it works with DXVA native is probably due to less strict renderer requirements in that case (since a virtual rendering device for ripping the content is impossible/unlikely).

@madshi, have a look at mplayerc.cpp, specifically the stuff related to "ChangeDisplaySettings", in which macrovision flags are stripped off.

[Manni]

DVD playback is special due to its content protection (Macrovision). I am almost certain that the black screen is because of that. MPC-HC contains hacks to bypass the macrovision crap, that is why refresh rate changing works in MPC-HC. It can probably be fixed in madVR by doing something similar.

The decoder is unrelated to the problem. The reason why it works with DXVA native is probably due to less strict renderer requirements in that case (since a virtual rendering device for ripping the content is impossible/unlikely).

@madshi, have a look at mplayerc.cpp, specifically the stuff related to "ChangeDisplaySettings", in which macrovision flags are stripped off.

Thanks, that makes sense. Not sure why it only happens when switching rates, there must be a difference in the way MadVR processes the video in that case which triggers the protection. Thanks for the explanation, hopefully that will help Madshi to resolve the issue when he has a bit of time.

[Manni]

I notice you say DVD, does it happen with other media types?

I don't have any DVDs (I do own blurays) but I can use LAV with software decoding and MadVR with refresh rate changing enabled, no black screens.

I tested with Zoom Player 9.2, LAV 0.62.0, MadVR v0.87.10. Windows 8.1 x64, Nvidia 340.43, changing between 2560x1440p100, 2560x1440p96 and 2560x1440p90.

Only happens with DVDs and only when using the auto display mode in MadVR, which is why clsid's explanation makes sense. Thanks for testing.

[Anime Viewer]

DVD playback is special due to its content protection (Macrovision).

If Manni's the same person I saw post on another board about this then he's/she's not really watching videos directly from a dvd, but watching dvds he/she ripped to his/her computer and is just using the /dvd switch to make the player think its a dvd from a load/menu perspective.

[Manni]

If Manni's the same person I saw post on another board about this then he's/she's not really watching videos directly from a dvd, but watching dvds he/she ripped to his/her computer and is just using the /dvd switch to make the player think its a dvd from a load/menu perspective.

I'm the same person :).

You are correct that I watch DVDs ripped to DVD folders, using the /dvd switch to properly read the video_ts folder, so it might make a difference vs physical dvds.

[Mano]

how can i fix madvr crashing mpc when there is heavy typesetting? (after disable madvr, the video doesnt crash so it must be due to madvr)

[clsid]

You are correct that I watch DVDs ripped to DVD folders, using the /dvd switch to properly read the video_ts folder, so it might make a difference vs physical dvds.Behavior is the same when DVD folders are copied to harddrive. Only stripping off all protections makes a difference.

You don't need to use the /dvd switch. You can also just open the video_ts.ifo file to load the DVD.

[michkrol]

how can i fix madvr crashing mpc when there is heavy typesetting? (after disable madvr, the video doesnt crash so it must be due to madvr)

If you mean it crashes with heavy styled subtitles, my guess would be it's because madVR usually uses more RAM and VRAM than other renderers, hence mpc crashes when it runs out of either.
Monitor your RAM usage with Task Manager, if it crashes at ~2GB RAM there's your reason. For VRAM usage monitoring use GPU-Z (free software).

If it crashes due to memory usage you could either try lowering the queue sizes or try using XySubFilter available here (only beta version right now).
Switching to latest nightly MPC-HC might also help (http://nightly.mpc-hc.org/).

[Arm3nian]

Hey guys, what should you set reclock to when you have smooth motion enabled. On a 60hz screen (59.99955hz) according to the OSD and watching blurays. With reclock set to "play media at original speed" the clock deviation is very low: .0002, but the OSD reports 1 frame repeat every 40 seconds. With reclock set to auto (plays media at 24fps) the clock deviation is a little higher: .09, but the OSD reports 1 frame drop every 20 hours, which I'm guessing is better. Thanks!

[huhn]

Hey guys, what should you set reclock to when you have smooth motion enabled. On a 60hz screen (59.99955hz) according to the OSD and watching blurays. With reclock set to "play media at original speed" the clock deviation is very low: .0002, but the OSD reports 1 frame repeat every 40 seconds. With reclock set to auto (plays media at 24fps) the clock deviation is a little higher: .09, but the OSD reports 1 frame drop every 20 hours, which I'm guessing is better. Thanks!

disable reclock in this case.
when SM is active there is no repeated or dropped frame. it is still shown but it is not going to drop or repeat a frame.

[Siso]

disable reclock in this case.
when SM is active there is no repeated or dropped frame. it is still shown but it is not going to drop or repeat a frame.

I guess in a case when the refresh rate is multiple of 23.976-24 , 72 hz monitor for example, reclock is needed, right?

[huhn]

I guess in a case when the refresh rate is multiple of 23.976-24 , 72 hz monitor for example, reclock is needed, right?

if you don't use SM yes

[Siso]

if you don't use SM yes

Thank you for the answer :)

[Manni]

Behavior is the same when DVD folders are copied to harddrive. Only stripping off all protections makes a difference.

You don't need to use the /dvd switch. You can also just open the video_ts.ifo file to load the DVD.

All protection is stripped as I rip using AnyDVDHD.

You need to use the /dvd switch when launching from MyMovies or it plays all the files in the folder in random order :).

[COOLak]

Sorry if it was answered already, but is it normal that I can't get past 32 neurons on NNEDI3 (both in Chroma upscaling and Image doubling) having GeForce GTX 590, Core i7-2600K and 8 GB RAM? I know it's not the latest hardware, but I didn't think that it was obsolete either. Whenever I set more than 32 neurons for NNEDI3 (regardless of any other settings), I get 1 to 15 fps at max, on any video resolution, even SD.

I'm using the latest MadVR version along with MPC-HC.

[ryrynz]

I set more than 32 neurons for NNEDI3 (regardless of any other settings), I get 1 to 15 fps at max, on any video resolution, even SD.


32 neurons with doubling? Are you only setting Luma?

[COOLak]

32 neurons with doubling? Are you only setting Luma?

I don't have any sort of frame drop with Chroma Upscaling + double Luma resolution + double Croma resoultion all on 32. However, if I change ANY of these to 64+ (even just Chroma upscaling WITHOUT doubling), I get 15 fps at best, but mostly 0 to 1 fps.

[Asmodian]

Interesting, the 590 is a dual GPU card. Have you tried running madVR with SLI disabled?

madVR runs much better on my SLI Titans with SLI disabled. I can run well over 32 neurons but the penalty for going higher with NNEDI3 or ED dithering is much higher with SLI enabled.

[COOLak]

Interesting, the 590 is a dual GPU card. Have you tried running madVR with SLI disabled?

madVR runs much better on my SLI Titans with SLI disabled. I can run well over 32 neurons but the penalty for going higher with NNEDI3 or ED dithering is much higher with SLI enabled.

There is no difference in performance with SLI disabled. Moreover, if I disable it, I can't watch x264 videos using CUDA, they just won't play.

[Anime Viewer]

Sorry if it was answered already, but is it normal that I can't get past 32 neurons on NNEDI3 (both in Chroma upscaling and Image doubling) having GeForce GTX 590, Core i7-2600K and 8 GB RAM? I know it's not the latest hardware, but I didn't think that it was obsolete either. Whenever I set more than 32 neurons for NNEDI3 (regardless of any other settings), I get 1 to 15 fps at max, on any video resolution, even SD.

I'm using the latest MadVR version along with MPC-HC.

Have you tried setting image upscaling to bilinear? That will free up resources that you can use for putting neurons in image doubling and chroma upscaling. (I don't see any visual quality hit with biliear, others whine that it will, but I haven't seen them provide any screen shots to prove it).
Besides hardware, what type of video you're playing (resolution and fps), different combination of image uscaling, chroma upscaling, and image doubling can make a drastic difference to your render times. You have different hardware than what was used on the test linked below, but it will give you an idea of what the different combinations will likely result with on your system.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1687134#post1687134

[Mano]

If you mean it crashes with heavy styled subtitles, my guess would be it's because madVR usually uses more RAM and VRAM than other renderers, hence mpc crashes when it runs out of either.
Monitor your RAM usage with Task Manager, if it crashes at ~2GB RAM there's your reason. For VRAM usage monitoring use GPU-Z (free software).

If it crashes due to memory usage you could either try lowering the queue sizes or try using XySubFilter available here (only beta version right now).
Switching to latest nightly MPC-HC might also help (http://nightly.mpc-hc.org/).
how to check my VRAM? i got 8gb of ram and 3gb of VRAM so i dont think it would run out. However as i notice near the moment it crash MPC take 2.1GB ram then 2.4gb then crash at 3.4 gb. I already installed xysubfilter and it still crash. Where can i find the queue sizes?

[cyberbeing]

I already installed xysubfilter and it still crash.
Could you clarify this? Which subtitle filter(s) were you using before installing XySubFilter? If it was the MPC-HC ISR, are you sure you've disabled it after installing XySubFilter?

First make sure you've disabled MPC-HC Playback -> 'Use Built-in Subtitle Renderer'. Then load a video, right-click the video window, and check the Filters context menu to ensure that "XySubFilter" is present. The 'Use Built-in Subtitle Renderer' option is the setting for enabling and disabling the MPC-HC ISR. When the ISR is disabled, XySubFilter should be used if it is installed.

When you say this only occurs with madVR, do you mean:

Out-of-memory Crash - both madVR + MPC-HC ISR and madVR + XySubFilter?

Working - both EVR-CP + MPC-HC ISR and EVR-CP + XySubFilter?

If you are unsure, please re-test these four cases. Assuming this really does not occur with EVR-CP no matter what subtitle renderer is used, then your CPU queue setting in madVR must be at fault if you are hitting the 32-bit process limit on system ram.

Where can i find the queue sizes?
madVR settings -> rendering -> general settings is where you'll find the queue settings. Resetting madVR to defaults wouldn't be a bad idea, if you haven't already tried this.

Lowering the 'CPU queue' will reduce System RAM usage when using XySubFilter, but increases the chance of dropped frames during slowdowns. Though really, the only reason any extreme amount of ram should be used at all, is if script contained extremely massive objects which extended beyond the screen size. Scripts which even come close to the 32-bit process limit at 2560x1440 with madVR and XySubFilter defaults are extremely rare, so I'm a bit surprised you are having issues.

I'd really need a sample of the script which is causing your problems, along with the resolution of your monitor. Bad come to worse, if you enable the "Render to Original Video Size" option in XySubFilter, you should never hit the 32-bit process limit on any released script (i.e. no one sane would release a script which would cause out-of-memory errors at original size). But if you are saying everything works with EVR-CP, then just lowering madVR's queues should be enough.

[namaiki]

There is no difference in performance with SLI disabled. Moreover, if I disable it, I can't watch x264 videos using CUDA, they just won't play.

Maybe you can try disable the CUDA decoding. I get the impression that it has worse latency than if you decode with your CPU.

[Asmodian]

There is no difference in performance with SLI disabled. Moreover, if I disable it, I can't watch x264 videos using CUDA, they just won't play.

That is weird. CUDA decoding works for me with SLI disabled. Dual GPU cards are always so odd. :confused:

[hoborg]

Hi.
Will be possible to add keyboard short cuts for:
-next audio stream
-next subtitles stream
-enable/disable (show/hide) subtitles ?

[nevcairiel]

Hi.
Will be possible to add keyboard short cuts for:
-next audio stream
-next subtitles stream
-enable/disable (show/hide) subtitles ?

Why would you ask the video renderer to do this? Its not meant to control playback.

Request these features from the developers of your player.