madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[fedpul]

When I said 6 doesn't work for me, I'm talking about the issue that the queues don't fill with 4K upscaling in D3D11 exclusive mode (10 bit). I have to use 4 in that case or desactivate 10 bit.

My problems with interlaced DVD (I'm talking about DVD but I think it's related to all interlaced content, it's just that 99% of my interlaced content is DVD) are nothing related to D3D11 exclusive mode or the latest MadVr version, you're right I never mentioned it. I've always found it very hard to avoid dropped frames with deinterlacing activated and "don't rerender frames when fade in/out is detected" unchecked because I can't use high CPU or GPU queue, the queues don't fill completely with deinterlacing activated. The only way I've found so far is to use 23-14-6 queues but even with that combination, I'm not totally confident to avoid dropped frames with some DVD...

Hi, Werewolfy. I had the same problem. I found a workaround. I use 1080p60 and smooth motion. No dropped frames anymore. Queues don't fill totally but there are no more dropped frames or choppy playback. If you use 1080p24 sometimes cadence is not recognized correctly and that is why you get choppy playback and dropped frames.

[Werewolfy]

Hi, Werewolfy. I had the same problem. I found a workaround. I use 1080p60 and smooth motion. No dropped frames anymore. Queues don't fill totally but there are no more dropped frames or choppy playback. If you use 1080p24 sometimes cadence is not recognized correctly and that is why you get choppy playback and dropped frames.

Hi, thanks for the tip but I don't really like to use smooth motion...

[kabal223]

You are on the same boat as me Werewolfy, smooth motion solves my problem but I dont like the effect for many reasons, one of them is the weird flicker on some scenes and when the credits roll at the end of movies.

[XTrojan]

Does anyone know how Sony TVs can detect 3:2 Pulldown judder and show 24Hz at 60Hz just exactly as if it was played back at 24Hz?

It would be great with some kind of algoritm that could do this.

[XMonarchY]

I want to use Image Doubling for 1080p films on my 1080p TV using high-end settings (3DLUT, 10bit+, De-Banding, NNEDI3 32n for Image Doubling, NNEDI3 32n for Chroma Upscaling + SuperRes Strength 3, SSIM 2D 100% + AR + LL for Image Downscaling, Jinc + AR for Image Upscaling, SuperRes Strength 3 for Image Refinement, ER Dithering, etc.)

My GTX 980 can't handle such settings without severe frame dropping, delayed frames, and a ton of presentation glitches. GTX 980 is simply isn't powerful enough for that.

Questions:
- Image Doubling for 1080p content on 1080p TV is equivalent of 2x SSAA, isn't it?
- Would Titan X be able to handle those settings?
- Would Fury X be able to handle those settings?
- Does SLI and/or Cross-Fire improve madVR rendering performance? Does SLI or Cross-Fire work without problems with madVR / have full support?

- If NO is the answer to all of the above questions, then what kind of a rig would be able to handle the settings I provided settings?
- If NO RIG can handle those settings, then what are alternative settings that would do 2 things:
1. Be able to use 100% Image Doubling for 1080p content on 1080p TV without any dropped frames, delayed, and/or presentation glitches
2. Provide better image quality than the quality provided by the same described settings, but with Image Doubling disabled

- What kind of a rig is currently advised for high-quality 4K to 1080p downscaling on 4K TV's, using equivalent settings as the ones I listed earlier? Would it be the currently fastest GTX Titan X / Fury X system or the more future-proof GTX 960 system for HEVC decoding?

Off-topic:
- I asked before and I got somewhat vague answers - I apologize for asking again. Why will HEVC become the standard for 4K content, but won't become the new standard for 1080p content? HEVC still provides either lower file sizes for identical H.264 image settings or better image quality using the same size files as H.264. Decoding is obviously an issue, especially since too few cards support full HEVC hardware decoding, but is that the main reason reason

[6233638]

Ok. Behaviour was the same? Meaning presentation queue simply didn't fill?Behavior was the same, but I'm getting unexpected results in 0.90.15 now.
I don't know what changed - perhaps the new NVIDIA 362.00 drivers - but I'm now seeing full queues even with the present queue size set to 16, whether the new glitch handling mode is enabled or not.
Which I know is not a very useful report - though it's good news that it seems to be working as intended.

[huhn]

Does anyone know how Sony TVs can detect 3:2 Pulldown judder and show 24Hz at 60Hz just exactly as if it was played back at 24Hz?

It would be great with some kind of algoritm that could do this.

madVR has IVTC that does the same.

but who said that the TV is using 60 hz in this case they most likely use 120 hz.

[XMonarchY]

madVR has IVTC that does the same.

but who said that the TV is using 60 hz in this case they most likely use 120 hz.

Some TV's produce no judder using 23Hz/24Hz or even 60Hz when playing 23Hz/24Hz content. Other TV's may very much produce judder at both 23Hz/24Hz and even 60Hz when playing 23Hz/24Hz content.

I know the 24Hz modes are usually "fake" because the screen still does 60Hz (...sort of... ...kind of...) when videocard settings are set to 23Hz/24Hz, no flickering occurs. My TV has true 48Hz mode for 23Hz/24Hz films that forces 48Hz mode when TV is set to 23Hz/24Hz in settings. In this mode my TV flickers a little bit (very common for true 48hz mode) on bright/light/white background, but produces no judder what-so-ever and films look particularity smooth in this mode. Flickering is another reason for why 23Hz/24Hz modes are "fake" and are actually using 60Hz, even with videocard settings set to 23Hz/24Hz. True 23Hz/24Hz modes would produce excessive flickering, one much worse than true 48Hz mode produces, and I don't think there are any recent TV's out there that utilize true 23Hz/24Hz mode.

Today, however, manufacturers moved away from true 48Hz mode due to the flickering effect, but introduced true 72Hz and some even developed true 96Hz modes. For example, Samsung PNF8350 Plasma TV comes with true 72Hz (or true 96Hz) mode, BUT in that mode it produces judder during 23Hz/24Hz content playback, unlike in normal 60Hz mode, where no judder is produced during 23/24Hz content playback.

In Summary

"Fake" 23Hz/24Hz Mode:
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + "fake" 23Hz/24Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = NO JUDDER on some TV's
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + "fake" 23Hz/24Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = JUDDER on other TV's

True 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz Mode:
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = NO JUDDER on some TV's
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = JUDDER on other TV's

Normal 60Hz Mode:
- 60Hz in videocard settings + normal 60Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = NO JUDDER on some TV's
- 60Hz in videocard settings + normal 60Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = JUDDER on other TV's

All-in-all, neither any refresh rate set in videocard settings nor "fake" 23Hz/24Hz modes or true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz modes determine whether there's judder or no judder during 23Hz/24Hz content playback. AFAIK only specific equipment (cameras) or your own eyes can determine the existence or the absence of judder. It is possible that I am wrong, but that's what my experience tells me.

How can madVR detect if there's judder in "fake" 23Hz/24Hz mode or true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz mode on any specific TV model? It seems (could be completely wrong) madVR is more likely to think that judder happens in all 60Hz modes, but not in "fake" 23Hz/24Hz modes and not in in true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz modes when refresh rate is set to 23/24Hz in videocard settings. As I've explained earlier, its not necessarily correct because judder can happen in any mode and at any refresh rate during 23Hz/24Hz content playback.

[Georgel]

I want to use Image Doubling for 1080p films on my 1080p TV using high-end settings (3DLUT, 10bit+, De-Banding, NNEDI3 32n for Image Doubling, NNEDI3 32n for Chroma Upscaling + SuperRes Strength 3, SSIM 2D 100% + AR + LL for Image Downscaling, Jinc + AR for Image Upscaling, SuperRes Strength 3 for Image Refinement, ER Dithering, etc.)

My GTX 980 can't handle such settings without severe frame dropping, delayed frames, and a ton of presentation glitches. GTX 980 is simply isn't powerful enough for that.

Questions:
- Image Doubling for 1080p content on 1080p TV is equivalent of 2x SSAA, isn't it?
- Would Titan X be able to handle those settings?
- Would Fury X be able to handle those settings?
- Does SLI and/or Cross-Fire improve madVR rendering performance? Does SLI or Cross-Fire work without problems with madVR / have full support?

- If NO is the answer to all of the above questions, then what kind of a rig would be able to handle the settings I provided settings?
- If NO RIG can handle those settings, then what are alternative settings that would do 2 things:
1. Be able to use 100% Image Doubling for 1080p content on 1080p TV without any dropped frames, delayed, and/or presentation glitches
2. Provide better image quality than the quality provided by the same described settings, but with Image Doubling disabled

- What kind of a rig is preferred for high-quality 4K to 1080p downscaling, using equivalent settings as the ones I listed earlier? The fastest GTX Titan X / Fury X or the more future-proof GTX 960 for HEVC decoding.


I remember reading that madVR cannot take advantage of SLI setups, so only upgrading to titan or furry remains, or waiting for high end Pascal GPUs which will be coming in a little while. They have been announced for a while, and there are articles everywhere online that they have been already produced and started shipping.

Usage of Image doubling without actually doing image doubling is very costing on GPU.

What you are doing is upscaling to 2Xthe resolution, then applying a downscaling algorithm over. IF your downscaling algorithm is SSIM 2D with AR and linear light, it is normal. Try to use Bicubic with AR. This should smoothen things out for you, but again, better to not use image doubling unless you are actually doing image doubling. You would have more success applying image doubling on 1080 content and upscaling it to 4K because then you would not add a step of downscaling, so it will result in less processing times.

[Werewolfy]

Behavior was the same, but I'm getting unexpected results in 0.90.15 now.
I don't know what changed - perhaps the new NVIDIA 362.00 drivers - but I'm now seeing full queues even with the present queue size set to 16, whether the new glitch handling mode is enabled or not.
Which I know is not a very useful report - though it's good news that it seems to be working as intended.

I need to test that tomorrow, fingers crossed :)

[Stereodude]

...judder...
What are you calling judder?

1) Judder is uneven motion. IE: 3:2 pattern judder from showing 24Hz content at 60Hz.

2) Some people call the low frame rate motion of 24Hz playback (on a display without 3:2 motion issues) "judder" because it's just not smooth like 60Hz playback, but that's not judder.

3) You can't watch 24Hz content as it was shot.
a) Any impulse display technology like Plasma, CRT, or even film projectors can't display 24Hz content at 24Hz due to flicker. They have to do at least 48Hz, generally 72Hz or 96Hz to avoid the perception of flicker. This means each frame is strobed on the screen multiple times which means when your eye is motion tracking an object it will see see the moving objects in the multiple frames in different locations, which can cause a visual effect that some people object to.

b) A 120Hz LCD or OLED can display 24Hz content without 3:2 judder, and without the sequential flashing issue because the pattern is 5:5 and the image is static / not flashing for those 5 identical frames, but then you have sample and hold motion blur issues with eye tracking.

You have to pick your poison. IMHO, both a) and b) are still better than 60Hz 3:2 pattern playback of 24Hz content. Because that suffers from either a) or b) (depending on the display type) and then slathers an additional problem on top. If you're stuck at 60Hz, Smooth Motion is invaluable.

[James Freeman]

Using AviSynth I inserted 2 black frames every single movie frame creating a 72fps version of the movie and watched on a 72Hz monitor.
Yes, it flickers like hell, but man it's SMOOTH with zero judder or motion blur, almost looks like HFR or looking into reality.
Basically, it simulated 24fps movie on a 24Hz screen.

The brain is a champion of creating missing information, it was true 24fps experience and flickering like crazy, but also looked much much more realistic.

[Warner306]

What are you calling judder?

1) Judder is uneven motion. IE: 3:2 pattern judder from showing 24Hz content at 60Hz.

2) Some people call the low frame rate motion of 24Hz playback (on a display without 3:2 motion issues) "judder" because it's just not smooth like 60Hz playback, but that's not judder.

3) You can't watch 24Hz content as it was shot.
a) Any impulse display technology like Plasma, CRT, or even film projectors can't display 24Hz content at 24Hz due to flicker. They have to do at least 48Hz, generally 72Hz or 96Hz to avoid the perception of flicker. This means each frame is strobed on the screen multiple times which means when your eye is motion tracking an object it will see see the moving objects in the multiple frames in different locations, which can cause a visual effect that some people object to.

b) A 120Hz LCD or OLED can display 24Hz content without 3:2 judder, and without the sequential flashing issue because the pattern is 5:5 and the image is static / not flashing for those 5 identical frames, but then you have sample and hold motion blur issues with eye tracking.

You have to pick your poison. IMHO, both a) and b) are still better than 60Hz 3:2 pattern playback of 24Hz content. Because that suffers from either a) or b) (depending on the display type) and then slathers an additional problem on top. If you're stuck at 60Hz, Smooth Motion is invaluable.

I disagree. I see judder at the movie theater, as well. No matter how you present 24 fps material, some panning shots will not be smooth. It is choppy movement, so I would call it "judder."

[James Freeman]

I disagree. I see judder at the movie theater, as well. No matter how you present 24 fps material, some panning shots will not be smooth. It is choppy movement, so I would call it "judder."

It will be Triple (72) or Quadruple (96) flashing or sample-and-hold.
You will never see Double (48) flashing these days in cinema except maybe in very old film projectors with double shutter (it flickers).

But what you DEFINITELY will not see is a Single flashing projector like in the 1920s (ever wonder why movies called Flickers?).
Even though they look the most realistic and judder free, they flicker and may induce some unwanted epileptic seizures in some individuals.

[XTrojan]

24Hz will always judder, there are some tools that can help against the judder, but they always introduce a side-effect.

Interpolation: Artifacts, lower quality. Honestly, Interpolation would do great if there was enough GPU/CPU resources, which there isn't. And thus it's pretty bad on sharp scenes, often ruining the movie. It's okay in normal scenes.

Black Frame Insertion: Lower brightness. Gets worse the higher framerate the original source was, using BFI on a 60hz movie results in major flickerfest. It works great on 24Hz, often nullifying the motion blur on 24Hz movies making it more clear and less "juddery".

Strobing: Ghosting and maybe some flicker. Basically less judder at the cost of motion blur, I hate motion blur and would rather choose 24Hz free motion blur.

The new UHD-BDs are said to playback at 60Hz, I hope this is the case, as the soap opera circlejerk is honestly bullshit; it just looks real because either the actors are bad or the special effects are bad. Most fighting scenes at 60Hz with the blur removed would look really bad, because it's very obvious it's choreographed. James Cameron has implicitly stated this and he's making Avatar 2 at 60Hz and promises it won't look fake.

HFR requires more effort from everyone and even more from the visual effects team or it'll look worse, anyone who has seen HFR Hobbit movies know this. Hollywood doesn't give a damn as there's no competition, better save ur money and use 24Hz tech that's a century old.

[Warner306]

24Hz will always judder, there are some tools that can help against the judder, but they always introduce a side-effect.

Interpolation: Artifacts, lower quality. Honestly, Interpolation would do great if there was enough GPU/CPU resources, which there isn't. And thus it's pretty bad on sharp scenes, often ruining the movie. It's okay in normal scenes.

Black Frame Insertion: Lower brightness. Gets worse the higher framerate the original source was, using BFI on a 60hz movie results in major flickerfest. It works great on 24Hz, often nullifying the motion blur on 24Hz movies making it more clear and less "juddery".

Strobing: Ghosting and maybe some flicker. Basically less judder at the cost of motion blur, I hate motion blur and would rather choose 24Hz free motion blur.

The new UHD-BDs are said to playback at 60Hz, I hope this is the case, as the soap opera circlejerk is honestly bullshit; it just looks real because either the actors are bad or the special effects are bad. Most fighting scenes at 60Hz with the blur removed would look really bad, because it's very obvious it's choreographed. James Cameron has implicitly stated this and he's making Avatar 2 at 60Hz and promises it won't look fake.

HFR requires more effort from everyone and even more from the visual effects team or it'll look worse, anyone who has seen HFR Hobbit movies know this. Hollywood doesn't give a damn as there's no competition, better save ur money and use 24Hz tech that's a century old.

UHD Blu-ray still uses film (24 fps).

[nevcairiel]

UHD Blu-ray still uses film (24 fps).

Not exclusively though, it allows for 60 fps to be used, of course that means someone would have to film that way first.

[Manni]

Not exclusively though, it allows for 60 fps to be used, of course that means someone would have to film that way first.

Not necessarily, like with bluray it will probably be live broadcast events like sports and concerts that will find their way to UHD Bluray at 50p or 60p, as this is the UHDTV standard.

[huhn]

Some TV's produce no judder using 23Hz/24Hz or even 60Hz when playing 23Hz/24Hz content. Other TV's may very much produce judder at both 23Hz/24Hz and even 60Hz when playing 23Hz/24Hz content.

I know the 24Hz modes are usually "fake" because the screen still does 60Hz (...sort of... ...kind of...) when videocard settings are set to 23Hz/24Hz, no flickering occurs. My TV has true 48Hz mode for 23Hz/24Hz films that forces 48Hz mode when TV is set to 23Hz/24Hz in settings. In this mode my TV flickers a little bit (very common for true 48hz mode) on bright/light/white background, but produces no judder what-so-ever and films look particularity smooth in this mode. Flickering is another reason for why 23Hz/24Hz modes are "fake" and are actually using 60Hz, even with videocard settings set to 23Hz/24Hz. True 23Hz/24Hz modes would produce excessive flickering, one much worse than true 48Hz mode produces, and I don't think there are any recent TV's out there that utilize true 23Hz/24Hz mode.

Today, however, manufacturers moved away from true 48Hz mode due to the flickering effect, but introduced true 72Hz and some even developed true 96Hz modes. For example, Samsung PNF8350 Plasma TV comes with true 72Hz (or true 96Hz) mode, BUT in that mode it produces judder during 23Hz/24Hz content playback, unlike in normal 60Hz mode, where no judder is produced during 23/24Hz content playback.

In Summary

"Fake" 23Hz/24Hz Mode:
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + "fake" 23Hz/24Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = NO JUDDER on some TV's
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + "fake" 23Hz/24Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = JUDDER on other TV's

True 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz Mode:
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = NO JUDDER on some TV's
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = JUDDER on other TV's

Normal 60Hz Mode:
- 60Hz in videocard settings + normal 60Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = NO JUDDER on some TV's
- 60Hz in videocard settings + normal 60Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = JUDDER on other TV's

All-in-all, neither any refresh rate set in videocard settings nor "fake" 23Hz/24Hz modes or true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz modes determine whether there's judder or no judder during 23Hz/24Hz content playback. AFAIK only specific equipment (cameras) or your own eyes can determine the existence or the absence of judder. It is possible that I am wrong, but that's what my experience tells me.

How can madVR detect if there's judder in "fake" 23Hz/24Hz mode or true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz mode on any specific TV model? It seems (could be completely wrong) madVR is more likely to think that judder happens in all 60Hz modes, but not in "fake" 23Hz/24Hz modes and not in in true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz modes when refresh rate is set to 23/24Hz in videocard settings. As I've explained earlier, its not necessarily correct because judder can happen in any mode and at any refresh rate during 23Hz/24Hz content playback.

we are talking about modern sony TVs here so no there is not this issue. they don't even need a mode for proper 23p.

edit: judder is the effect of an uneven pulldown/up and is not a 24 hz issue!
but this doesn't mean an image without judder is smooth to the eye. judder just makes it even worse.

and BTW. the topic was recovering an flawed video stream (60p broadcast with 24p content) not how most TV destroy a correct video stream.

[XMonarchY]

we are talking about modern sony TVs here so no there is not this issue. they don't even need a mode for proper 23p.

edit: judder is the effect of an uneven pulldown/up and is not a 24 hz issue!
but this doesn't mean an image without judder is smooth to the eye. judder just makes it even worse.

and BTW. the topic was recovering an flawed video stream (60p broadcast with 24p content) not how most TV destroy a correct video stream.

Indeed, BUT it just happens that on some TV's in some modes that pull-down occurs properly/evenly and in other modes it doesn't. On other TV's, 60Hz mode produces no judder with its 3:2 pull-down system, the same TV in true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz mode with 2:2, 3:3, or 4:4 pull-down can very much produce judder. On some other TV's, 60Hz 3:2 pull-down produces judder while 2:2, 3:3, or 4:4 pull-down modes do not.

Now we can argue this both ways, but what I'd like to know is how madVR determines the presence of judder. It would have to somehow detect the TV's hardware pull-down effect, would it not?

[huhn]

Indeed, BUT it just happens that on some TV's in some modes that pull-down occurs properly/evenly and in other modes it doesn't. On other TV's, 60Hz mode produces no judder with its 3:2 pull-down system, the same TV in true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz mode with 2:2, 3:3, or 4:4 pull-down can very much produce judder. On some other TV's, 60Hz 3:2 pull-down produces judder while 2:2, 3:3, or 4:4 pull-down modes do not.

Now we can argue this both ways, but what I'd like to know is how madVR determines the presence of judder. It would have to somehow detect the TV's hardware pull-down effect, would it not?

the TV has nothing to do with this. it is simply fixing an video stream.

[XMonarchY]

the TV has nothing to do with this. it is simply fixing an video stream.

How does it determine when video stream needs fixing? How can you say that TV has nothing to do with it when there are CNET and other review sites that specifically discuss how judder happens in some modes and not other...

[nevcairiel]

How does it determine when video stream needs fixing? How can you say that TV has nothing to do with it when there are CNET and other review sites that specifically discuss how judder happens in some modes and not other...

madVR knows nothing about your TV, it has to assume that whatever output mode you set is actually properly working with your TV. If its not, there is nothing madVR can do about that, anyway. If the TV introduces judder on an otherwise perfect signal, its out of anyones hands.
In short, fix your hardware first before worrying about software. If the hardware is degrading the signal, nothing inside your PC can fix it. So first figure out which signal works with the TV, then setup everything else to work with that.

[aufkrawall]

Could you guys please provide me with some realworld test images, like the original lighthouse or castle picure?
I want to do some comparisions with the new anti-ringing filter for super-xbr, and my collection is quite limited.

[Px]

Hello, I have an issue with madVR crash after video playback finishes. I'm starting video, switching to fullscreen on TV (third output device), and when video stops, and player returns to primary display, several seconds after I'm receiving a crash dialog from madVR. I've performed a regression testing, and issue first appeared in 9.0.4, affected versions up to 9.0.13, didn't test 9.0.15 yet, but don't see any related changes in changelog. I've tried enabling alt glitch handling mode, but that didn't help.
All crash reports+madVR/mpc-hc settings+not sure if related screen from 9.0.4 can be downloaded here - http://www.cs.iptcom.net/tmp/crash_details.7z
It is not a big issue, but it is annoying a bit. Please write if you need some additional information.

[Hyllian]

Could you guys please provide me with some realworld test images, like the original lighthouse or castle picure?
I want to do some comparisions with the new anti-ringing filter for super-xbr, and my collection is quite limited.
In this link you can get many classical sets for image scaling:

https://github.com/jbhuang0604/SelfExSR

[aufkrawall]

Thank you. :)

[leandronb]

Finally had a look at this. According to your log the decoder is not sending any frames when the problem occurs. I don't know why. It doesn't look like a madVR bug to me, but it's hard to be sure.

Thanks for looking at it. Any clue what could be the problem?
I recently reinstalled windows 10 from scratch, and installed only the essential stuff, and with too many variables is hard to pinpoint the problem, and before reinstalling windows i didn't have this problem, and had much more stuff installed.

[hu1kamania]

I want to use Image Doubling for 1080p films on my 1080p TV using high-end settings (3DLUT, 10bit+, De-Banding, NNEDI3 32n for Image Doubling, NNEDI3 32n for Chroma Upscaling + SuperRes Strength 3, SSIM 2D 100% + AR + LL for Image Downscaling, Jinc + AR for Image Upscaling, SuperRes Strength 3 for Image Refinement, ER Dithering, etc.)

My GTX 980 can't handle such settings without severe frame dropping, delayed frames, and a ton of presentation glitches. GTX 980 is simply isn't powerful enough for that.

I have a 980Ti factory overclocked with the same CPU running stock at 3.8Ghz and I'm able to run those settings with 1080p film content. I prefer SSIM 1D for SuperSampling, and I use enhance detail + crispen edges for refinement. Otherwise those are pretty similar settings to what I use.

I'd rather wait for the Pascal than drop money on a Titan X.

[ryrynz]

I want to use Image Doubling for 1080p films on my 1080p TV using high-end settings (3DLUT, 10bit+, De-Banding, NNEDI3 32n for Image Doubling, NNEDI3 32n for Chroma Upscaling + SuperRes Strength 3, SSIM 2D 100% + AR + LL for Image Downscaling, Jinc + AR for Image Upscaling, SuperRes Strength 3 for Image Refinement, ER Dithering, etc.)

My GTX 980 can't handle such settings without severe frame dropping, delayed frames, and a ton of presentation glitches. GTX 980 is simply isn't powerful enough for that.


You could make a few small concessions there and you probably wouldn't even tell the difference at the usual viewing distance.

And if you must run the most expensive options then as above, wait for Pascal and Polaris, don't upgrade the 980 yet.

[kabal223]

Hi guys, I have a problem with madvr playing 23.976 on every 60hz display I have, its like the normal (and fine with me) judder effect but much more worse, its totally choppy, I mean, it looks like something is wrong with the 3:2 pulldown because is more "jumpy" than normal. This doest happen with others renders, only with madvr, and also it happens on every player/setup Ive tested on my house (using madvr of course). The only way to fix this is turning on smooth motion, but I dont like that effect because in 60hz I can see some ghosting on some scenes.

Please help! How can I play 60hz on madvr? (I dont like neither 24hz or 48hz because I totally hate flicker)

Thank you so much.

Madshi, sorry to bother you, but do you have any plans to improve the 60hz 3:2 pulldown playback? Because after some further testing 58hz is still choppy for me, the only workaround Ive found is using the framerate doubler in the deinterlace options of ffdshow, but I have to also use reclock with forced 24fps, this way I get a perfect 3:2 pulldown playback, the problem is that reclock is not reliable for me and overall this workaround uses to many resources, I might have issues with really high bitrate files.

Thanks!

Ok guys, after some more further testing I'm confident enough to say that Ive totally fixed the 60hz shutter problem with minimal side effects. here is what I did:

First of all, this settings are perfect for me because:

1.- There is no flicker (yay!)
2.- Minimal judder to almost non existant (for my eyes, its like at the cinema for me)
3.- I can use ac3 and dts spdif passthrough with reclock
4.- No soap opera effect
5.- No ghosting
6.- No visible frame drops
7.- Maybe there is, but I cant see any video or audio quality loss

So, what do you need?

1.- madvr as your renderer (duh!) and you DONT need smooth motion, please turn that off

2.- ac3filter with SPDIF passthrough turned on (if you want to use your receiver like me)

3.- 60hz on your videocard

4.- ffdshow as your decoder with forced deinterlacing (Process frames flagged as progressive) and this settings:

http://i.imgur.com/ifWbzlu.png

That deinterlacing settings (framerate doubler with 1 pixel motion and 0 threshold) its the only that works for me without any visible quality loss, and Im using a 100" 1080p projector, every other option gives me jagged edges. Im using ffdshow rev4519.

5.- ReClock 1.6 with forced (and locked) 24fps... it is important that you use this version if you want ac3 and dts spdif passthrough because with newer versions you will have to reencode the audio to ac3 and it will convert also the dts tracks to dolby digiltal and I hate that. This are the options Im using:

http://i.imgur.com/AzGgcKb.png

Downsides:

When I start the movie sometimes the sound is choppy and cuts like hell, just pause and unpause the movie until the sound is fine and it will play without any other glitches during the entire movie time.


I hope this will works for you too.

[ryrynz]

Ok guys, after some more further testing I'm confident enough to say that Ive totally fixed the 60hz shutter problem with minimal side effects.

I think since the introduction of smooth motion FRC most users don't use madVR's pulldown, anymore. Instead most users either have a matching framerate / refresh rate setup, or they use smooth motion FRC. So although I'm aware of that the pulldown needs an improvement, I don't think it's very urgent...

Probably related? Could be worth fixing up soonish?

[Hyllian]

Thank you. :)

The original Lighthouse is one of the Kodak collection. That collection is really great and is often used for image processing. The original is here: http://r0k.us/graphics/kodak/

Classic images:
1- http://www.hlevkin.com/default.html#testimages
2- http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~ece533/images/

And if you wanna get many other images, search in these links:

1- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_test_image
2- http://www.imageprocessingplace.com/root_files_V3/image_databases.htm
3- https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~cil/v-images.html
4- http://testimages.tecnick.com/

[tingtong5]

Hi,

I was a bit surprised to find out that between all the nice "black bar" options there is no feature included to do an automatic vertical stretch for anamorphic purposes.

Are there any plans to include such a feature in madvr. I did notice that manual anamorphic lens option in madvr, but thats not automatic ;-)

Ronald

[aufkrawall]

The original Lighthouse is one of the Kodak collection. That collection is really great and is often used for image processing. The original is here: http://r0k.us/graphics/kodak/

Classic images:
1- http://www.hlevkin.com/default.html#testimages
2- http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~ece533/images/

And if you wanna get many other images, search in these links:

1- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_test_image
2- http://www.imageprocessingplace.com/root_files_V3/image_databases.htm
3- https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~cil/v-images.html
4- http://testimages.tecnick.com/
:thanks:
I suppose you already tuned the deband filter with many of such images?

Btw:
I asked some poeple to test if there is still a copyback with NNEDI3 OpenCL on Radeons with D3D11 interop extension, and it really seems like there is none:
http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10965383&postcount=35
http://abload.de/thumb/290_2600k_p8p67-m-pro0fsm8.jpg (http://abload.de/image.php?img=290_2600k_p8p67-m-pro0fsm8.jpg)

Hawaii Pro GPU can do 16 neurons doubling for 1080p 60fps on a PCI Express 2.0 platform. :)
Maybe it could do 32 neurons with the rest just set to bilinear.

[madshi]

I wanted to ask this, is it possible to implement more aggressive edge thinning algorithm?
Madshi, I asked about raising the max value for edge thinning earlier, would you mind raising it to 5?
I've added to my to do list to raise the max value for the next release.

I don't know at exact which version of madVR the bug started to appear but for sure it was after 0.89, however I've only tested 90.12 and 90.13 for the moment. I have 4 profiles set in madVR: 2160p, 1080p, 720p and SD. For the last 2 I'm using luma doubling with NNEDI3 32 and 64 neurons respectively. When I try to play SD material (720x576 PAL DVDs ripped to mkvs) if MPC-HC is not in full screen or maximized windowed screen than madVR crashes (I can post tonight the crash report). This does not happen when I play 720p or 1080p material, I can squeeze MPC-HC size or drag from its margins in all directions and it still playing smooth. I have repeated the test on another PC, this time an Intel Core I3 NUC with HD4400 and there madVR does not crash no matter what material I play and what is the size of the MPC-HC window. It seems that the bug is strictly related to NVidia and playback of 720x576 material. I have also tested with MPC-HC launched from Kodi and since it's going directly fullscreen there is no issue on both computers. What is annoying however is that even if I select in MPC-HC the option to launch files in full screen it does not do this leading to crash of madVR when I play 720x576 material. Again the bug is non existent if I put manually MPC-HC in fullscreen or in maximized windowed mode. Do you have any suggestion on fixing this?
First of all please test v0.90.15. If the problem is still there, please make the crash report available (don't attach to this forum, doesn't work), and it would be greatly helpful if you could figure out which exact madVR build introduced the problem for you.

Same thing here. madVR v0.90.13.
Whenever I play a video with back bar, the subtitles appear in the balck bar during the 5 first minutes of playback and then return inside the video.
The only option I've checked in zoom control is "Moved subtiles to bottom of the screen" everything else is unchecked.
I'm also using the lastest version of XYSubFilter.
I can't say for sure which version of madVR introduced it but it was introduced recently.
Can you try to find a sample with which I could reproduce the problem on my PC, please?

My problems with interlaced DVD (I'm talking about DVD but I think it's related to all interlaced content, it's just that 99% of my interlaced content is DVD) are nothing related to D3D11 exclusive mode or the latest MadVr version, you're right I never mentioned it. I've always found it very hard to avoid dropped frames with deinterlacing activated and "don't rerender frames when fade in/out is detected" unchecked because I can't use high CPU or GPU queue, the queues don't fill completely with deinterlacing activated. The only way I've found so far is to use 23-14-6 queues but even with that combination, I'm not totally confident to avoid dropped frames with some DVD...
Are you using DXVA deinterlacing or forced film mode? Does the problem occur with both? And which queue is the first one which is getting into trouble (less than half full)?

Hi madshi, the problem with black screens during playback when using NNEDI is not fixed, for me at least. I tried 90.15 last night and got two black screens in 40 minutes.
Some questions:

Does the black screen occur immediately when you start playback? Or does it happen after a couple of minutes runtime? And once the black screen occurs, does it stay "forever"? Does loading a new video file solve the issue? Or do you have to restart the media player? Or even the whole PC? Is this a new issue or did you always have it? If it's a relatively new issue, can you please try to find out which exact madVR build introduced it?

I want to use Image Doubling for 1080p films on my 1080p TV using high-end settings (3DLUT, 10bit+, De-Banding, NNEDI3 32n for Image Doubling, NNEDI3 32n for Chroma Upscaling + SuperRes Strength 3, SSIM 2D 100% + AR + LL for Image Downscaling, Jinc + AR for Image Upscaling, SuperRes Strength 3 for Image Refinement, ER Dithering, etc.)

My GTX 980 can't handle such settings without severe frame dropping, delayed frames, and a ton of presentation glitches. GTX 980 is simply isn't powerful enough for that.
If we're talking about supersampling, using NNEDI3 may be overkill. Try using super-xbr instead, or simple Jinc or even Lanczos upscaling. You'll probably not see much of a difference in image quality (if any at all), at a much lower performance cost. The situation were different if you were really outputting 4K. But if you scale down again to 1080p, NNEDI3 will probably not bring much visible improvement.

If you insist on using NNEDI3 with all these settings, then maybe your GPU is too slow. If you want to get a faster GPU, I'd agree with the other users who suggested to wait for Pascal or Polaris.

Behavior was the same, but I'm getting unexpected results in 0.90.15 now.
I don't know what changed - perhaps the new NVIDIA 362.00 drivers - but I'm now seeing full queues even with the present queue size set to 16, whether the new glitch handling mode is enabled or not.
Which I know is not a very useful report - though it's good news that it seems to be working as intended.
Would be great if the new NVidia drivers improved the situation there, of course!!

Hello, I have an issue with madVR crash after video playback finishes. I'm starting video, switching to fullscreen on TV (third output device), and when video stops, and player returns to primary display, several seconds after I'm receiving a crash dialog from madVR. I've performed a regression testing, and issue first appeared in 9.0.4, affected versions up to 9.0.13, didn't test 9.0.15 yet, but don't see any related changes in changelog. I've tried enabling alt glitch handling mode, but that didn't help.
All crash reports+madVR/mpc-hc settings+not sure if related screen from 9.0.4 can be downloaded here - http://www.cs.iptcom.net/tmp/crash_details.7z
It is not a big issue, but it is annoying a bit. Please write if you need some additional information.
That's interesting. Can you please create a debug log from this situation with v0.90.15?

Thanks for looking at it. Any clue what could be the problem?
I recently reinstalled windows 10 from scratch, and installed only the essential stuff, and with too many variables is hard to pinpoint the problem, and before reinstalling windows i didn't have this problem, and had much more stuff installed.
It could be a problem with the video decoder, but it's hard to say for sure. Which video decoder are you using? LAV? Which decoding mode (software, DXVA native, DXVA copyback, CUVID, ...)?

Ok guys, after some more further testing I'm confident enough to say that Ive totally fixed the 60hz shutter problem with minimal side effects.
Ah, I see. So the imperfect 3:2 pulldown used by the current madVR build doesn't really bother you at all. You just noticed it, correct? I think since the introduction of smooth motion FRC most users don't use madVR's pulldown, anymore. Instead most users either have a matching framerate / refresh rate setup, or they use smooth motion FRC. So although I'm aware of that the pulldown needs an improvement, I don't think it's very urgent...
Probably related? Could be worth fixing up soonish?
Yes, likely related. It's on my to do list, but to be honest, I don't fully understand how anybody could prefer 3:2 pulldown to minor flickering or minor smooth motion artifacts. I suppose everybody is entitled to their own opinion, of course, but I have SO MANY things to do, I still don't consider this a high priority atm, because I personally think watching any content with 3:2 pulldown is simply "wrong", and most users would prefer using smooth motion FRC (or minor flickering) over that. So I believe there's only a very small number of users who require optimized 3:2 pulldown smoothness.

I was a bit surprised to find out that between all the nice "black bar" options there is no feature included to do an automatic vertical stretch for anamorphic purposes.

Are there any plans to include such a feature in madvr. I did notice that manual anamorphic lens option in madvr, but thats not automatic ;-)
How do you define "manual" vs "automatic"? I think you haven't taken profiles into account. The whole madVR settings concept is based on that if you want to have some things automated, you create profiles and use rules/scripts to switch them automatically.

E.g. if you want to activate anamorphic stretch only for Cinemascope content, then create two profiles for "screen config", name one "scope" and one "everything else". Check "anamorphic lens" in the "scope" profile. Then use the following "profile auto select rules":

if (ar > 2.2) "scope" else "everything else"
Done.

[kabal223]

The problem is... on my projector the flickering and ghosting is magnified, also the soap opera effect, thats why I prefer the 3:2 pulldown, but now its much better because I get minimal judder with my workaround.

The ffdshow deinterlacing fix the irregular movement of the madvr pulldown, but there still are dropped frames, that is easily fixed running reclock at 24fps, it soo fluid now!

[XTrojan]

The problem is... on my projector the flickering and ghosting is magnified, also the soap opera effect, thats why I prefer the 3:2 pulldown, but now its much better because I get minimal judder with my workaround.

The ffdshow deinterlacing fix the irregular movement of the madvr pulldown, but there still are dropped frames, that is easily fixed running reclock at 24fps, it soo fluid now!

Check if you got any BFI mode, projectors usually have that and run it at 24Hz, turn off strobing mode or whatever they call it, as that causes ghosting + soap opera effect.

[kabal223]

Check if you got any BFI mode, projectors usually have that and run it at 24Hz, turn off strobing mode or whatever they call it, as that causes ghosting + soap opera effect.

My hw10 doesnt have any motion options.

[fedpul]

Some questions:

Does the black screen occur immediately when you start playback? Or does it happen after a couple of minutes runtime? And once the black screen occurs, does it stay "forever"? Does loading a new video file solve the issue? Or do you have to restart the media player? Or even the whole PC? Is this a new issue or did you always have it? If it's a relatively new issue, can you please try to find out which exact madVR build introduced it?

Hi madshi, the black screen occurs during the playback never at start, it seems to be totally random (maybe 15 to 30 minutes). Once it occurs I need to go out of fullscreen and then go fullscreen again, during these black screens i lost video but audio keeps playing. I'm getting these black screens since 90.12 or 90.13 (I almost did not use 90.12) but in 90.13 they were worse (no video or audio) because i could not exit FSE, I had to kill MPC-HC with tasks manager and play the movie again.

I hope this info would be useful if you have more questions just ask. I'm very busy these days beacuse I'm studying for university but I will try different versions of madvr in a few days. Specially 90.11 which I think works OK.

Thanks in advance!

[Uoppi]

My problems with interlaced DVD (I'm talking about DVD but I think it's related to all interlaced content, it's just that 99% of my interlaced content is DVD) are nothing related to D3D11 exclusive mode or the latest MadVr version, you're right I never mentioned it. I've always found it very hard to avoid dropped frames with deinterlacing activated and "don't rerender frames when fade in/out is detected" unchecked because I can't use high CPU or GPU queue, the queues don't fill completely with deinterlacing activated. The only way I've found so far is to use 23-14-6 queues but even with that combination, I'm not totally confident to avoid dropped frames with some DVD...

Maybe try upping the GPU queue size even more?

I need to use a GPU queue of at least 20 to avoid dropped frames with interlaced NTSC DVDs. Any less gives me occasional and "unexpected" dropped frames. After extensive testing, 20-20-6 works for me perfectly.

(My setup is Win10, factory-overclocked GTX 960 and a dual core Ivy Bridge Pentium, using D3D11 windowed mode.)

[Px]

That's interesting. Can you please create a debug log from this situation with v0.90.15?
http://www.cs.iptcom.net/tmp/full-logs-9.0.15.7z - uploaded debug logs along with fresh crash log

[Uoppi]

because I personally think watching any content with 3:2 pulldown is simply "wrong", and most users would prefer using smooth motion FRC (or minor flickering) over that. So I believe there's only a very small number of users who require optimized 3:2 pulldown smoothness.

I'm not sure if I understand correctly but why would I want to watch a 3:2 pulldown movie of 23.976/24 fps at 60 Hz instead? I never use smooth motion anyway (based on my quick tests I can't stand the ghosting) and wouldn't I need to use much lower PQ settings because of smooth motion's higher resource demands?

[iSeries]

Hi, using 2d ssim causes a lot of dropped frames for me. In the stats its listed twice (like this 'ssim 2d100 ar < ssim 2d100 ar') and render times go way up. 1d ssim works fine and is listed in the stats only once as expected. Is that normal for 2d?

[ryrynz]

using 2d ssim causes a lot of dropped frames for me. In the stats its listed twice (like this 'ssim 2d100 ar < ssim 2d100 ar') and render times go way up. 1d ssim works fine and is listed in the stats only once as expected. Is that normal for 2d?

No. Could you post a screenshot of the OSD?

[iSeries]

No. Could you post a screenshot of the OSD?

Sure, here or to an image hosting site?

[huhn]

take an image host please

[iSeries]

No. Could you post a screenshot of the OSD?

Here you go. Seems to only happen when supersampling 1080p > 1080p. Works as expected when doubling eg 720p and downscaling to 1080p.

http://imgur.com/vrtHks6

[ryrynz]

Here you go. Seems to only happen when supersampling 1080p > 1080p. Works as expected when doubling eg 720p and downscaling to 1080p.

http://imgur.com/vrtHks6

Can confirm that on my OSD too. Something's amiss. I think it's just the OSD though.

SSIM 1D is about twice as fast as SSIM 2D, that's normal. SSIM 2D is quite intensive because it uses Jinc kernel for downscaling.
My GTX 960 finds it too demanding generally as well, just stick to 1D until you get something faster. Better use of resources to have more NNEDI3 neurons than using SSIM 2D IMO.

[iSeries]

Can confirm that on my OSD too. Something's amiss. I think it's just the OSD though.
SSIM 1D is about twice as fast as SSIM 2D, that's normal. SSIM 2D is quite intensive because it uses Jinc for downscaling.

In all other doubling / downscaling scenarios, 2d works fine (as does jinc), only adds around 2-3ms to render times. When supersampling render times shoot up into the 80s ms with 2d, from around 35ms with 1d. Jinc downscaling also shows the same behaviour when supersampling, its in the osd twice and render times shoot up into the 80s.