madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[Oguignant]

A Blu-ray player will typically output YCbCr (directly from the decoded video stream) over HDMI. The TV does the YCbCr → RGB conversion.

Internally, a PC GPU works in RGB only. A PC will typically output RGB over HDMI. The TV just passes its through (hopefully) untouched.

If you enable YCbCr output in your GPU driver settings, the GPU will output YCbCr over HDMI. But internally, it still works in RGB. So what's going to happen is that the GPU will internally convert RGB to YCbCr, then send it over HDMI, then the TV will convert YCbCr back to RGB. The double conversion is pointless, and is likely to degrade quality (especially if there's chroma subsampling going on, or the PC and the TV disagree about which matrix to use).

Putting it all together, here's what happens when using madVR:

GPU driver configured to output RGB: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (RGB) → TV (RGB)

GPU driver configured to output YCbCr: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (converts from RGB to YCbCr) → TV (converts from YCbCr to RGB)

Hopefully you can see now that the second configuration doesn't make a ton of sense!

Yes! Now it is perfectly clear. Now I understand, the result is always RGB.

last question. When the video is 10 bits, in fullscreen exclusive mode, how does it convert? Rgb 8 bits?

[David]

Putting it all together, here's what happens when using madVR:

GPU driver configured to output RGB: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (RGB) → TV (RGB)

GPU driver configured to output YCbCr: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (converts from RGB to YCbCr) → TV (converts from YCbCr to RGB)

Hopefully you can see now that the second configuration doesn't make a ton of sense!

Most TV do RGB->YCbCr conversion so in the end:


GPU driver configured to output RGB: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (RGB) → TV (converts from RGB to YCbCr) → TV (converts from YCbCr to RGB)

Only with PC Mode yo can avoid that conversion, but not always.

In the end, with most TV, you can only choose where RGB->YCbCr conversion is done, through GPU or TV.

[Oguignant]

Most TV do RGB->YCbCr conversion so in the end:


GPU driver configured to output RGB: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (RGB) → TV (converts from RGB to YCbCr) → TV (converts from YCbCr to RGB)

Only with PC Mode yo can avoid that conversion, but not always.

In the end, with most TV, you can only choose where RGB->YCbCr conversion is done, through GPU or TV.

But I think the best option is to use rgb and avoid multiple conversions.

LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (RGB) → TV (RGB)

What is PC Mode?

[iSeries]

But I think the best option is to use rgb and avoid multiple conversions.

LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (RGB) → TV (RGB)

What is PC Mode?

PC mode is a special mode on some TVs which turns off many of it's processing 'features'. On my LG plasma for example, if I name the HDMI input as 'PC', almost all of the 'fluff' like dynamic contrast etc is greyed out.

Unless you put your TV into PC mode, it is almost certainly converting an RGB signal into YCbCr (and probably 4:2:2 or maybe worse, 4:2:0) to do all it's processing, and then converting again to RGB for final display.

In PC mode, you may or may not avoid this conversion process - to use my TV as an example again, in PC mode, all of the stuff I don't use anyway is greyed out, leaving only the basic controls and the CMS, but I have no idea whether it's bypassing this RGB-YCbCr-RGB process, all I know for sure is in PC mode it passes the 4:4:4 test (if not in PC mode, it shows 4:2:2, a clear indicator that it's converting an RGB signal into YCbCr).

[PetitDragon]

@David and iSeries

You two know and talk too much! :D:D:D

[Oguignant]

PC mode is a special mode on some TVs which turns off many of it's processing 'features'. On my LG plasma for example, if I name the HDMI input as 'PC', almost all of the 'fluff' like dynamic contrast etc is greyed out.

Unless you put your TV into PC mode, it is almost certainly converting an RGB signal into YCbCr (and probably 4:2:2 or maybe worse, 4:2:0) to do all it's processing, and then converting again to RGB for final display.

In PC mode, you may or may not avoid this conversion process - to use my TV as an example again, in PC mode, all of the stuff I don't use anyway is greyed out, leaving only the basic controls and the CMS, but I have no idea whether it's bypassing this RGB-YCbCr-RGB process, all I know for sure is in PC mode it passes the 4:4:4 test (if not in PC mode, it shows 4:2:2, a clear indicator that it's converting an RGB signal into YCbCr).

My tv is lg 65ef9500 and has pc mode option. (Disable options like trumotion, noise reduction, mpeg noise reduction, etc). I use PC mode + UHD Deep Color for 4k 60mhz.
I did the 444 test and I passed it. And without PC mode (only HDMI) I also did the 444 test and passed it too...

http://i.imgur.com/fpcuBnBm.jpg

You say that the RGB signal arrives at the TV and then the TV converts it to yCbCr again? :o I'm already very confused again ...

[Oguignant]

@David and iSeries

You two know and talk too much! :D:D:D

jajaja:eek:

[iSeries]

My tv is lg 65ef9500 and has pc mode option. (Disable options like trumotion, noise reduction, mpeg noise reduction, etc). I use PC mode + UHD Deep Color for 4k 60mhz.
I did the 444 test and I passed it. And without PC mode (only HDMI) I also did the 444 test and passed it too...

http://i.imgur.com/fpcuBnBm.jpg

You say that the RGB signal arrives at the TV and then the TV converts it to yCbCr again? :o I'm already very confused again ...

If options like trumotion etc are selectable, it is almost certainly converting RGB to YCbCr for processing. You are lucky enough though that your TV does this in 4:4:4. Either way though, even though a completely RGB chain is theoretically better, you may not even see a difference at a normal viewing distance with normal material (eg as bluray is 8 bit 4:2:0 YCbCr to begin with).

[Oguignant]

If options like trumotion etc are selectable, it is almost certainly converting RGB to YCbCr for processing.

PC mode turns off all image processing options on my TV. I think it shows the RGB signal without re-processing it. Is there any way to know?

[huhn]

there is a simple answer to that your screen isn't RGB so no.

[Oguignant]

there is a simple answer to that your screen isn't RGB so no.

Excuse my ignorance ... you say my tv screen is not rgb?

[iSeries]

PC mode turns off all image processing options on my TV. I think it shows the RGB signal without re-processing it. Is there any way to know?

You may find that in PC mode you are stuck with 60hz, and in any other refresh rate (like 23/24hz), the TV comes out of PC mode. It's really easy to get lost in the pursuit of absolute perfection though. What is subjective, what is objective, and what is plain placebo will always be up for debate, especially in this thread. Just try to spend some time actually enjoying some movies ��

[Oguignant]

You may find that in PC mode you are stuck with 60hz, and in any other refresh rate (like 23/24hz), the TV comes out of PC mode. It's really easy to get lost in the pursuit of absolute perfection though. What is subjective, what is objective, and what is plain placebo will always be up for debate, especially in this thread. Just try to spend some time actually enjoying some movies ��

With PC mode let me select several refresh types in RGB or yCbCr444.

http://i.imgur.com/eOfV95Wl.jpg

I just want to know how to configure the HDMI options on the NV card. RGB or yCbCr444... I want to know which one is right.

[iSeries]

With PC mode let me select several refresh types in RGB or yCbCr444.

http://i.imgur.com/eOfV95Wl.jpg

I just want to know how to configure the HDMI options on the NV card. RGB or yCbCr444... I want to know which one is right.

Easy - RGB. And of course you can choose any supported refresh rate while in PC mode. The way to test it is put the TV in 60hz PC mode. Then in NV panel change to 23hz. Go into the TV settings and see if the stuff that gets greyed out in PC mode is now selectable.

[huhn]

Excuse my ignorance ... you say my tv screen is not rgb?

OLED is WRGB.

you can't display an RGB image without processing on an LG OLED it is impossible.

[Oguignant]

OLED is WRGB.

you can't display an RGB image without processing on an LG OLED it is impossible.

65ef9500 is RGBA...

[Oguignant]

Easy - RGB. And of course you can choose any supported refresh rate while in PC mode. The way to test it is put the TV in 60hz PC mode. Then in NV panel change to 23hz. Go into the TV settings and see if the stuff that gets greyed out in PC mode is now selectable.

23, 24, 25, 29mhz..etc The options are the same as in 60mhz.

[huhn]

it is WRGB RGBW or what ever you like more. that'S how LG oled work they have 4 sub pixel not 3 and one of them is white.

RGBA is RGB ALPHA. i'm pretty sure there is no screen with an alpha channel on the panel.

[Oguignant]

it is WRGB RGBW or what ever you like more. that'S how LG oled work they have 4 sub pixel not 3 and one of them is white.

RGBA is RGB ALPHA. i'm pretty sure there is no screen with an alpha channel on the panel.


In this review I read that it is RGBA ... http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/ef9500

[huhn]

it is WRGB.
http://www.displayspecifications.com/en/comparison/dfce482b

[Oguignant]

it is WRGB.
http://www.displayspecifications.com/en/comparison/dfce482b

Yes, thks Rgbw .... whatever, the movies look amazing on this tv ...

[iSeries]

23, 24, 25, 29mhz..etc The options are the same as in 60mhz.

What about scaling options? On my LG, when in PC mode, all scaling functions are disabled. Zoom functions are only selectable when not in PC mode. I'm going to guess though that whether in PC mode or not, its converting to YCbCr. Just set NV panel to RGB full and on your TV set black level to high. And then forget about it. At the end of the day, like you say, oleds look amazing. I should be so lucky (wife says no) :-)

[Oguignant]

What about scaling options? On my LG, when in PC mode, all scaling functions are disabled. Zoom functions are only selectable when not in PC mode. I'm going to guess though that whether in PC mode or not, its converting to YCbCr. Just set NV panel to RGB full and on your TV set black level to high. And then forget about it. At the end of the day, like you say, oleds look amazing. I should be so lucky (wife says no) :-)

In this Tv, when PC mode is On, super resolution is enabled. I use it as Low.

[Knight77]

Hello, this is a bit off-topic but I'm really willing to know what's the right setting and by the way it's Christmas so everyone is better and nicer and I'm sure you won't mind the question :D

My Nvidia panel is set RGB Full, Lav Filters with PC output 0-255 and TV supports 4:4:4

I've got a XD93 4K HDR TV, in the picture settings I have two voices:

X-tended Dynamic Range (can be set: off/Low/Medium/High)
and
Colour Space (can be set to: Auto/sRGB-BT.709/DCI/BT2020)

What's the best setting? About colour space I'm knee to keep it Auto but now XDR is set to off...

Any indication is appreciated !

Thanks and MERRY CHRISTMAS !

[Oguignant]

Hello, this is a bit off-topic but I'm really willing to know what's the right setting and by the way it's Christmas so everyone is better and nicer and I'm sure you won't mind the question :D

My Nvidia panel is set RGB Full, Lav Filters with PC output 0-255 and TV supports 4:4:4

I've got a XD93 4K HDR TV, in the picture settings I have two voices:

X-tended Dynamic Range (can be set: off/Low/Medium/High)
and
Colour Space (can be set to: Auto/sRGB-BT.709/DCI/BT2020)

What's the best setting? About colour space I'm knee to keep it Auto but now XDR is set to off...

Any indication is appreciated !

Thanks and MERRY CHRISTMAS !

Merry Crhistmas too!!!

X-tended Dynamic Range PRO increases the quality of HDR and even non-HDR content by revitalizing every scene with the widest range of brightness possible. It goes in tastes. I prefer not to use any image processing on the TV, it always makes it look artificial.

As for Color Space, you can leave it in Auto if it works correctly. If you use bt-2020 or DCI with encoded content for view bt-709 content, you will see some saturated colors.

The new video standard for Ultra High Definition content is BT.2020 (colors closer to reality)
The BT-2020 color standard lets you display about 3/4 of the visible color spectrum. The video standard for HD content (BT-709 Standard) only reproduces 30% of the spectrum reproduced by the new standard for 4k/UHD BT-2020.

DCI is the one that will be implemented the soonest, and it represents the basic color requirement of the HDR spec. To meet the minimum HDR requirements, a TV must be able to display over 90% of the DCI color space.

The main difference between DCI and bt-709 (the current standard color space) is that DCI can display many more tones of green, though there is also a slight expansion to the number of red tones. The number of blue tones was unchanged. Altogether, it covers just over half of the visual spectrum, and will provide a pretty significant increase in picture quality over bt-709, which covers only about 35% of the visual spectrum.

Hope this can help you! :D

[Knight77]

Merry Crhistmas too!!!

X-tended Dynamic Range PRO increases the quality of HDR and even non-HDR content by revitalizing every scene with the widest range of brightness possible. It goes in tastes. I prefer not to use any image processing on the TV, it always makes it look artificial.

As for Color Space, you can leave it in Auto if it works correctly. If you use bt-2020 or DCI with encoded content for view bt-709 content, you will see some saturated colors.

The new video standard for Ultra High Definition content is BT.2020 (colors closer to reality)
The BT-2020 color standard lets you display about 3/4 of the visible color spectrum. The video standard for HD content (BT-709 Standard) only reproduces 30% of the spectrum reproduced by the new standard for 4k/UHD BT-2020.

DCI is the one that will be implemented the soonest, and it represents the basic color requirement of the HDR spec. To meet the minimum HDR requirements, a TV must be able to display over 90% of the DCI color space.

The main difference between DCI and bt-709 (the current standard color space) is that DCI can display many more tones of green, though there is also a slight expansion to the number of red tones. The number of blue tones was unchanged. Altogether, it covers just over half of the visual spectrum, and will provide a pretty significant increase in picture quality over bt-709, which covers only about 35% of the visual spectrum.

Hope this can help you! :D

Thank you very much!

Well I guess I'll leave XDR on Off and Colour Space on Auto.

I read everywhere (AVSForum+AVforums) that with the current content is better to leave XDR off but well I wanted to be sure, anyway I also prefer to do not use much processing.

About the Colour Space I got that BT2020 will be used mainly with UDH content...bTW with the normal 1080p Serials and movies I guess we're still with REC709, what about the UHD content "coming" for Nextfilx and Amazon ?

Thank you again!

[Oguignant]

Thank you very much!

Well I guess I'll leave XDR on Off and Colour Space on Auto.

I read everywhere (AVSForum+AVforums) that with the current content is better to leave XDR off but well I wanted to be sure, anyway I also prefer to do not use much processing.

About the Colour Space I got that BT2020 will be used mainly with UDH content...bTW with the normal 1080p Serials and movies I guess we're still with REC709, what about the UHD content "coming" for Nextfilx and Amazon ?

Thank you again!

I prefer to see the image with real colors without any processing. But there are people who like to adorn it with the processing of the TV. Not to me, that's why I switched my Sony TV for an oled Tv. They are personal tastes.

Netflix just started uploading HDR content. You need a very good internet connection, at least 25 mbps. There you also have to use color space Auto. My TV detects HDR content and automatically activates it, I do not know how it is on your Sony TV.

[Oguignant]

Hi. Can someone explain to me what happens when the MATRIX is BT.709 and the primaries are bt.2020? What is the difference between matrix and primaries?

[e-t172]

The matrix determines the formula (more specifically, the coefficients) that is used to convert from YCbCr to RGB and vice-versa.

The primaries determines what R, G, and B correspond to in actual color, as in, they are the coordinates of pure red, green, and blue (usually specified in the XYZ color space). For example, a BT.2020 R=0% G=100% B=0% color will be "greener" (more saturated) than the same color in DCI-P3, which will itself be more saturated than the same color in BT.709 (or sRGB, which is identical in that aspect).

These two concepts are completely independent - there's nothing stopping you from playing a video file using a BT.601 matrix and SMPTE-C primaries, for example. Of course, you need to match the parameters that the video was produced with (usually specified in the metadata of the video file), otherwise the colours will look wrong.

[fedpul]

Hi, I know this is offtopic but I got a 4K TV a few days ago and I cannot calibrate it using AVS HD 709 patterns, so I am gonna buy a colorimeter soon. And I would like to learn everything I could about display calibration. Could anyone provide me some links to start with the basics. I also would like to know if it is worth creating a 3dLUT for madVR if you already have the TV well calibrated by BT.709 standard. Thanks and Merry Christmas!!!

Enviado desde mi MI 4LTE mediante Tapatalk

[Georgel]

Merry Christmas, everyone!!

[Ver Greeneyes]

And I would like to learn everything I could about display calibration. Could anyone provide me some links to start with the basics.
I suggest starting with this topic (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/1471169-madvr-argyllcms.html), and maybe asking there for further information (check out the rest of that forum too).

[Oguignant]

Hi,

What is the difference between pure power curve and bt.709/601 curve?
Which should I choose? My tv supports bt.709, dci p3 and bt.2020. gamma 1.9, 2.2, 2.4 and bt.1886. I calibrate the tv using gamma 2.2

[ausvette]

I have a issue I haven't been able to solve with scaling from 2k to 4k.

Normal playback is fine. rendering time around 29ms. But when I pause and resume playback or seek forwards and backwards, quite often the picture disappears and I get a screen which is mainly white with sometimes a vague noise outline of the major contrast areas. Sound remains fine.

I'm running Windows 7 32 bit, gtx 1070 with drivers 376.33, mpc-hc 1.7.10. Have also tried mpc-be 1.5.0 but has the same problem. Lav filter .68.1, madvr .91.4

madvr settings:
pc levels
10 bit
display already calibrated
bt.709
bt.709 curve 2.40

artefact removal - reduce banding effects medium/high
image enhancements - none

chroma upscaling - NGU high
image downscaling - jinc, scale in linear light, activate anti-ringing filter relaxed
image upscaling - NGU luma very high, chroma normal
after doubling - upscaling jinc ar, downscaling use image downscaling settings
upscaling refinement - soften edges 1

rendering - in general settings I've tried every combo I could think of here, without solving problem

currently have :
delay playback and delay playback after seeking
enable windowed overlay
use direct3d 11 and present a frame for every vsync
use a separate device for presentation
cpu queue size 16
gpu queue size 8

all default settings for windowed mode

smooth motion off
dithering - error diffusion 2
trade quality for performance - everything off

If I select enable full screen exclusive mode, playback seems fine and pause/resume and seeking seems fine, but I get a big red "Out of Memory" across the screen.

lav filters:
NVidia cuvid, I have also tried dxva2 copy back with same result

pc levels
random dithering


Any suggestions on what I could do or try to solve this problem? I'm very impressed with the video quality madvr produces, but not really useable for me with this problem.

Thanks!

[Manni]

A Blu-ray player will typically output YCbCr (directly from the decoded video stream) over HDMI. The TV does the YCbCr → RGB conversion.

Internally, a PC GPU works in RGB only. A PC will typically output RGB over HDMI. The TV just passes its through (hopefully) untouched.

If you enable YCbCr output in your GPU driver settings, the GPU will output YCbCr over HDMI. But internally, it still works in RGB. So what's going to happen is that the GPU will internally convert RGB to YCbCr, then send it over HDMI, then the TV will convert YCbCr back to RGB. The double conversion is pointless, and is likely to degrade quality (especially if there's chroma subsampling going on, or the PC and the TV disagree about which matrix to use).

Putting it all together, here's what happens when using madVR:

GPU driver configured to output RGB: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (RGB) → TV (RGB)

GPU driver configured to output YCbCr: LAV decoder output (YCbCr) → madVR (converts from YCbCr to RGB) → HDMI output (converts from RGB to YCbCr) → TV (converts from YCbCr to RGB)

Hopefully you can see now that the second configuration doesn't make a ton of sense!

The bolded part above is true in theory (especially with PC monitors) but not correct most of the time in practice with TV/projectors.

If the display has color/hue controls, it has to convert the input signal to YcBcR to apply color/hue, then convert to RGB to display.

So if you send RGB, what happens usually with a TV/Projector is RGB > YCB (for color decoder controls) > RGB.

This means sending RGB results in one extra conversion [EDIT: on the TV side, not overall, see posts below].

The best way to check if your display converts to YCB before displaying in RGB is to try to change color/hue. If they are available/active, then the display converts to YCB even if you send RGB, before converting back to RGB.

This doesn't mean that RGB isn't better for MadVR (unless it causes levels issues), it's definitely what Madshi recommends for MadVR, just that it doesn't' necessarily create the "cleanest" path from a conversion point of view.


Merry Crhistmas too!!!

X-tended Dynamic Range PRO increases the quality of HDR and even non-HDR content by revitalizing every scene with the widest range of brightness possible. It goes in tastes. I prefer not to use any image processing on the TV, it always makes it look artificial.

As for Color Space, you can leave it in Auto if it works correctly. If you use bt-2020 or DCI with encoded content for view bt-709 content, you will see some saturated colors.

The new video standard for Ultra High Definition content is BT.2020 (colors closer to reality)
The BT-2020 color standard lets you display about 3/4 of the visible color spectrum. The video standard for HD content (BT-709 Standard) only reproduces 30% of the spectrum reproduced by the new standard for 4k/UHD BT-2020.

DCI is the one that will be implemented the soonest, and it represents the basic color requirement of the HDR spec. To meet the minimum HDR requirements, a TV must be able to display over 90% of the DCI color space.

The main difference between DCI and bt-709 (the current standard color space) is that DCI can display many more tones of green, though there is also a slight expansion to the number of red tones. The number of blue tones was unchanged. Altogether, it covers just over half of the visual spectrum, and will provide a pretty significant increase in picture quality over bt-709, which covers only about 35% of the visual spectrum.

Hope this can help you! :D

This is incorrect too. DCI isn't and will never be used for consumer sources. It's used in cinema sources, and grading monitors are today still calibrated to DCI, but they use BT2020 as a container to distribute consumer content, so for consumers it's either rec-709 (bluray/HDTV) or BT2020 (UHD Bluray/UHDTV).

Content at the moment doesn't go further than DCI primaries, but it will progressively get closer to BT2020. Still, from a calibration point of view, DCI is irrelevant. You should never use a DCI mode with consumer content. If you do, the colors won't track accurately as even if the content was mastered on DCI monitors, it was encoded using BT2020 saturations.

For example, all current UHD Bluray titles report DCI primaries in the metadata, but that only tells the limitations of the grading monitor. It doesn't mean that the content was mastered using DCI primaries. All UHD Bluray titles are encoded using BT2020 primaries. The content doesn't reach the full gamut yet (like from a luminance point of view, the content doesn't reach the theoretical max of 10,000nits, but is closer to 1000-2500nits at most, even when graded at 4000nits).

[nevcairiel]

So if you send RGB, what happens usually with a TV/Projector is RGB > YCB (for color decoder controls) > RGB.

This means sending RGB results in one extra conversion.

Thats not true, it just moves the conversion from the GPU to the TV, since PCs are inherently RGB, and personally I would prefer to let the TV do that if it has to, because it has a chance to preserve higher bitdepth and zero chance of messing up the matrix.

RGB Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU RGB -> TV converts to YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

YCbCr Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU converts to YCbCr -> TV YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

On top of that, RGB output has a chance to skip the YCbCr step in the TV entirely, since a TV can implement color management in RGB. I don't know how TVs typically work, but you don't have to use YCbCr to change the Hue. You would more likely use HSL space for that.
Many TVs offer CMS options in PC/Game mode, which at least means it preserves full 4:4:4 chroma, and often that also means it never leaves RGB since their entire YCbCr processing path is typically limited to 4:2:2

[Manni]

Thats not true, it just moves the conversion from the GPU to the TV, and personally I would prefer to let the TV do that if it has to, because it has a chance to preserve higher bitdepth and zero chance of messing up the matrix.

RGB Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU RGB -> TV converts to YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

YCbCr Output from the GPU:
madVR RGB -> GPU converts to YCbCr -> TV YCbCr -> TV converts to RGB for display

On top of that, RGB output has a chance to skip the YCbCr step in the TV entirely, since a TV can implement color management in RGB. I don't know how TVs typically work, but you don't have to use YCbCr to change the Hue. You would more likely use HSL space for that.

Hi Nevcairiel,

This is a misunderstanding, I meant sending RGB to a TV/Projector usually means one extra conversion ON THE TV SIDE, compared to what had been posted earlier, that implied that sending RGB meant no extra conversion (in other words, that using RGB out from the GPU meant a "pure" RGB chain from MadVR output).

I did NOT mean that sending RGB means one extra conversion overall (I agree with the overall chains you posted), thanks for clarifying that if that's the way my post could be read.

Regarding how TV/Projectors work, I'm quoting what engineers told me (which is that the color/hue controls can't work in RGB, which leads to an extra internal conversion to YCB unless the color/hue controls are disabled when receiving RGB). They know more about this than I do.

[thighhighs]

lav filters:
NVidia cuvid, I have also tried dxva2 copy back with same result

Software decoding method produce same problem for you? Try in LAV video Hardware decoder to use: None.
Also, uncheck windowed overlay (it work in dx9 mode) and use a separate device for presentation (test it, performance can be better\worse).

[Oguignant]

The bolded part above is true in theory (especially with PC monitors) but not correct most of the time in practice with TV/projectors.




If the display has color/hue controls, it has to convert the input signal to YcBcR to apply color/hue, then convert to RGB to display.

So if you send RGB, what happens usually with a TV/Projector is RGB > YCB (for color decoder controls) > RGB.

This means sending RGB results in one extra conversion.

The best way to check if your display converts to YCB before displaying in RGB is to try to change color/hue. If they are available/active, then the display converts to YCB even if you send RGB, before converting back to RGB.

This doesn't mean that RGB isn't better for MadVR (unless it causes levels issues), it's definitely what Madshi recommends for MadVR, just that it doesn't' necessarily create the "cleanest" path from a conversion point of view.




This is incorrect too. DCI isn't and will never be used for consumer sources. It's used in cinema sources, and grading monitors are today still calibrated to DCI, but they use BT2020 as a container to distribute consumer content, so for consumers it's either rec-709 (bluray/HDTV) or BT2020 (UHD Bluray/UHDTV).

Content at the moment doesn't go further than DCI primaries, but it will progressively get closer to BT2020. Still, from a calibration point of view, DCI is irrelevant. You should never use a DCI mode with consumer content. If you do, the colors won't track accurately as even if the content was mastered on DCI monitors, it was encoded using BT2020 saturations.

For example, all current UHD Bluray titles report DCI primaries in the metadata, but that only tells the limitations of the grading monitor. It doesn't mean that the content was mastered using DCI primaries. All UHD Bluray titles are encoded using BT2020 primaries. The content doesn't reach the full gamut yet (like from a luminance point of view, the content doesn't reach the theoretical max of 10,000nits, but is closer to 1000-2500nits at most, even when graded at 4000nits).

I sending rgb signal from nv card. In the Tv menu, i have this options in color managment, Saturation, Tint and luminance, for red, green, blue, yellow, cyan and magenta.

http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/ef9500/ef9500-config-27-medium.jpg
http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/ef9500/ef9500-config-2-medium.jpg

Does it mean that TV converts the RGB signal from NV to yCbCr, and then to RGB again?

[Manni]

I sending rgb signal from nv card. In the Tv menu, i have this options in color managment, Saturation, Tint and luminance, for red, green, blue, yellow, cyan and magenta.

Does it mean that TV converts the RGB signal from NV to yCbCr, and then to RGB again?

If the last two controls (color/tint) are still active when inputting RGB, this is very likely, but as I posted initially and as discussed with Nevairiel, it doesn't mean that RGB output isn't the better option for MadVR. It likely is (as long as it doesn't cause levels issues with other software). I only wanted to make it clear that outputting RGB to a TV/projector usually results in just as many colorspace conversions as outputting YCB, as you have one less on the PC side but one more on the TV side.

RGB out is definitely better for a PC monitor, and most likely for a TV/Projector as well. Some other factors (like levels issues with other software) might however lead you to use YCB.

If you only use MPC-BE (or HC or similar)/LAV/MadVR, stick to RGB out.

[Oguignant]

If the last two controls (color/tint) are still active when inputting RGB, this is very likely, but as I posted initially and as discussed with Nevairiel, it doesn't mean that RGB output isn't the better option for MadVR. It likely is (as long as it doesn't cause levels issues with other software). I only wanted to make it clear that outputting RGB to a TV/projector usually results in just as many colorspace conversions as outputting YCB, as you have one less on the PC side but one more on the TV side.

RGB out is definitely better for a PC monitor, and most likely for a TV/Projector as well. Some other factors (like levels issues with other software) might however lead you to use YCB.

If you only use MPC-BE (or HC or similar)/LAV/MadVR, stick to RGB out.

If the controls are active. Using rgb or ycb I do not see differences in colors, I will leave rgb as you say.

In calibration, what is the difference between pure power curve and bt.709/601 curve?
Which should I choose? My tv supports bt.709, dci p3 and bt.2020. gamma 1.9, 2.2, 2.4 and bt.1886. I calibrate the tv using gamma 2.2

[Asmodian]

Check out the link in my signature, and please let me know if my descriptions for gamma curves don't make sense. :)

[Oguignant]

Check out the link in my signature, and please let me know if my descriptions for gamma curves don't make sense. :)

disable calibration controls for this display: The display is assumed to have a BT.709 gamut with a pure power gamma of 2.2 (probably).
this display is already calibrated: [BT.709, pure power curve, 2.20] This sets the current display characteristics. This affects the conversions used by madVR when playing video with a different gamut or using the 'enable gamma processing' option in 'color & gamma'.

Before asking a question, I first look at that page. If I am not clear, I ask the forum. Maybe when using a TV oled it is better to use X gamma curve.

[leeperry]

BTW I recently updated to the latest version of PotP and when I seek several times in a row(even in windowed mode) I get this box (http://www.imagebam.com/image/af9071498496016) showing up for a split second.

^ and that seems all solved with PotP 1.6.63856, apparently the company owning PotP has changed so maybe new coders had a hard time ironing things out or something. My custom D3D skin also looked funny sometimes and it's all good again as far as I can tell :)

In this review I read that it is RGBA ... http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/ef9500
Hey thanks for the link, I thought those old OLED's selling for a grand would make stunning deals but apparently new ones cost twice more for a good reason huh, outrageous DSE at bay.

[Asmodian]

disable calibration controls for this display: The display is assumed to have a BT.709 gamut with a pure power gamma of 2.2 (probably).
this display is already calibrated: [BT.709, pure power curve, 2.20] This sets the current display characteristics. This affects the conversions used by madVR when playing video with a different gamut or using the 'enable gamma processing' option in 'color & gamma'.

Before asking a question, I first look at that page. If I am not clear, I ask the forum. Maybe when using a TV oled it is better to use X gamma curve.

I was thinking of these:
pure power curve: [Default] use the standard pure power gamma function
BT.709/601 curve: Use the inverse of a meant for camera gamma function. It has a linear section near black so shadows lighten faster as you move away from black. This can be helpful if your display has crushed shadows.
2.20, 2.40, etc.: [2.20] changes the display's gamma, based on the display's settings in 'calibration', to this target gamma. Lower brightens mid range values which can be nice in a brightly lit room. Higher darkens mid range values which might look better in a darker room.

BT.2020 will be basically pure power 2.4 gamma on an OLED so if you are in a dark room that is what I would recommend, 2.2 for a normally lit room.

[Oguignant]

I was thinking of these:


BT.2020 will be basically pure power 2.4 gamma on an OLED so if you are in a dark room that is what I would recommend, 2.2 for a normally lit room.

What do you mean, calibration or color & gamma? to set to pure power curve 2.20

[Oguignant]

I found this note that says:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1421919922

LG told us that the new 4K OLED TVs use true 10-bit panels – no dithering – and that the built-in HEVC decoder can process 4K HDR at 10-bit, too.

Does it mean I have to disable dithering in madvr?

[Asmodian]

What do you mean, calibration or color & gamma? to set to pure power curve 2.20

Those are just my descriptions of the various gamma curves, I would not use madVR to change the gamma if you can calibrate your display to the gamma you want.

I use BT.2020 for dark room viewing, on your OLED TV that is probably equivalent to pure power 2.4 gamma. You could calibrate to 2.4 but then have madVR convert to 2.2 when your room is too bright.

Calibration is where you tell madVR what your display is calibrated to and color and gamma is where you can change the output to achieve a different gamma from what your display is calibrated too. If you set this display is already calibrated to pure power 2.2 and then set color and gamma to pure power 2.2 the color and gamma setting doesn't do anything, but if you set color and gamma to pure power 2.4 madVR will darken mid range values to achieve a 2.4 gamma on a display calibrated to 2.2.

[Oguignant]

Those are just my descriptions of the various gamma curves, I would not use madVR to change the gamma if you can calibrate your display to the gamma you want.

I use BT.2020 for dark room viewing, on your OLED TV that is probably equivalent to pure power 2.4 gamma. You could calibrate to 2.4 but then have madVR convert to 2.2 when your room is too bright.

Calibration is where you tell madVR what your display is calibrated to and color and gamma is where you can change the output to achieve a different gamma from what your display is calibrated too. If you set this display is already calibrated to pure power 2.2 and then set color and gamma to pure power 2.2 the color and gamma setting doesn't do anything, but if you set color and gamma to pure power 2.4 madVR will darken mid range values to achieve a 2.4 gamma on a display calibrated to 2.2.

perfect! Thank you. You are very kind to answer my questions

[Asmodian]

I found this note that says:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1421919922

LG told us that the new 4K OLED TVs use true 10-bit panels – no dithering – and that the built-in HEVC decoder can process 4K HDR at 10-bit, too.

Does it mean I have to disable dithering in madvr?

NO! THERE IS NEVER A REASON TO DISABLE madVR's DITHERING. :mad:

That means when you send the display a 10-bit signal it won't display it by dithering on an 8-bit panel.

Example: a pixel value is 513 in 10-bit (edit: 128.25 in 8-bit) so a fake dithering 10-bit panel sets the pixel to 128 (8-bit) 75% of the time and 129 25% of the time.