madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) [Archive] - Page 343

LaUs3r

21st January 2013, 20:51

I don't know who ultimately decides the composition rate. I'd guess it's somewhere in the depth of the OS, or maybe the GPU drivers have something to do with it, too. At least there's no way to control it for normal applications. All madVR does is disable and reenable Desktop Composition whenever it switches display modes. That usually helps "updating" the composition rate. I suppose Windows just doesn't like different composition rates for primary and secondary monitors, but I don't really know. As I said, using fullscreen exclusive mode should help, as should disabling Aero while playing back video.

I'm not sure exactly what happens if composition rate and refresh rate don't match, but it seems to result in a lot of trouble.

I tried to follow your advice but unfortunately it didn't help.
Attached you'll find the madvr-settings I used and the log-file as well.

aufkrawall

21st January 2013, 21:33

Do you mind to upload the files to some sharehoster, e.g. Mediafire?
Then madshi and others don't have to wait for attachment approval.

ThurstonX

21st January 2013, 22:10

Exactly. Note that most (all?) TVs and projectors don't actually use 24 Hz for 24p input sources because of the flicker it causes, so they'll typically play 24p material at 72 or 96 Hz (or higher), presenting each frame 3 or 4 times (or more).

Sorry for the noob question, just trying to wrap my head around it all. I have a movie I encoded using XviD with a 23.976 frame rate (progressive). I set my video card (Radeon HD 6670) to '23' Hz, and my TV (LG 47LS4500) reports 1080/24p. The movie playback is smooth, as one would expect. Moving my mouse pointer and dragging or resizing windows is jerky, as one would expect with that refresh rate.

On the other hand, if I leave my video card at 60Hz the movie still plays back fairly smoothly (I'm usually using ReClock), though there may be some judder.

It sounds like even if I set my card to use 23Hz, and the TV reports 1080/24p, the TV is actually using a faster refresh rate... at least it may be. It is labeled as a 120Hz TV, so could this be an instance when the 120Hz - even if it's just LG's TruMotion interpolation - is kicking in? Unlike older models, there is no way to enable or disable TruMotion on the 47LS4500. So if it's automated, this sounds like a case where it would/should be used.

CTRL+J OSD lists the display as 23.97550/1/2Hz in FSE (some slight deviation; ReClock is in use), but is this really related to the frequency used by the TV?

Sorry if this is OT. I'll just add that using software decoding in LAV (Core i5-3350P @ 3.10GHz Ivy Bridge) I run Jinc3 w/AR for chroma and image upscaling without a hitch for all types of videos.

For example, with the Radeon set at 23Hz, my 720x336 23.976 fps progressive (DVR dump to MPEG-2, then XviD-encoded SD) scaled to 1920x1080/24p, render times are Avg. 14.13ms.

Admittedly, this low-res, poorly sourced file exhibits a lot of aliasing on objects in motion at this scaling level, but oh well. It was an exercise in copying from a cable co. DVR via S-Vid Out. The MPEG-2 capture was just too damn big to save.

LOVE madVR and the LAV suite :-)

DragonQ

21st January 2013, 22:16

It sounds like even if I set my card to use 23Hz, and the TV reports 1080/24p, the TV is actually using a faster refresh rate... at least it may be. It is labeled as a 120Hz TV, so could this be an instance when the 120Hz - even if it's just LG's TruMotion interpolation - is kicking in? Unlike older models, there is no way to enable or disable TruMotion on the 47LS4500. So if it's automated, this sounds like a case where it would/should be used.
Correct. Your device might be outputting 23.976p and your TV will report this as the input, but it will not be refreshing at 23.976 Hz, it'll be using an integer multiple of that.

Dodgexander

22nd January 2013, 01:07

Madshi following the bug i reported with FFDSHOW dxva, where do you stand on it? Is it something you're willing to look into, or are you not interested in supporting ffdshow compared to lav?

Thanks:)

leeperry

22nd January 2013, 01:41

Oops, I guess I forgot to say that I still could use a tag for AR as PotP is really pointless for this kind of stuff as it only allows 4:3 and 16/9, duh :o

And its pan&scan feature is great, but not accurate at all as most of the time it will shrink or stretch the picture by as much as 12 pixels(just like MPC).......a far cry from ffdshow with its 0.01 AR accuracy :(

So yeah, AR tags and making the "windowed/exclusive" OSD messages disappear is all I crave at this point in mVR. Hopefully we'll be reaching 1.0 soon enough so I can ask for these again ^^

And going back to the HD gamut conspiracy theory, I now have that CRT perfectly calibrated and all the latest HD movies I tried looked grossly undersaturated in SMPTE-C....I also couldn't see any diff between EBU and REC.709 for european HD movies, which kinda makes sense (http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/ressources/image/54227). so indeed what may have appeared to be true half a decade earlier might very well not be anymore. I'll keep rolling them but it's rather clear that I'll have to make a new PotP automatic profile for HD@24p=REC.709 :cool:

ThurstonX

22nd January 2013, 02:07

Correct. Your device might be outputting 23.976p and your TV will report this as the input, but it will not be refreshing at 23.976 Hz, it'll be using an integer multiple of that.

Thanks a lot for confirming.

pururin

22nd January 2013, 10:49

Exactly. Note that most (all?) TVs and projectors don't actually use 24 Hz for 24p input sources because of the flicker it causes, so they'll typically play 24p material at 72 or 96 Hz (or higher), presenting each frame 3 or 4 times (or more).

Maybe that's just the case for most newer models?
I have a problem with Samsung LED TV c5000 series (2010 model, 60Hz), video playback is of low framrate jerky using 1080p24 display mode changer in madVR (with ReClock).

The TV reports 1920x1080@24Hz and the playback seems to really be at that refresh rate.

Now I wonder what I should do :confused: if I play at 60Hz there are judder (3:2 pulldown thing) while at native 23/24Hz it's too jerky.
What are you guys using?

DragonQ

22nd January 2013, 11:25

You don't seem to be understanding. If, for example, you get a 24 fps clip and play each frame 4 times at a refresh rate of 96 Hz, it'll come out looking the same (but the display will exhibit less flicker than if it were refreshing at 24 Hz). The "jerkiness" of 24p/25p material is inherent - there is simply not enough frames in each second to produce smooth video, and this is the reason for the "film look" of this type of content. If your TV can't do more than 60 Hz then it most likely uses 48 Hz for 24p video (even though it says "24 Hz" or "24p" because that's what the input signal is).

You seem to be confusing this with motion interpolation, which most TVs have the option for nowadays (and often it's enabled by default). This is where, instead of simply repeating frames, the display will create new frames at time points in between the existing ones. This will "smooth out" the video and make it look more realistic and less jerky, whilst removing the "film look".

ryrynz

22nd January 2013, 11:54

My 2 cents on that, I've had times where motion interpolation appears more jerky, perhaps from it appearing so smooth for the most part until it gets to a particular jerky part in a scene which is less obvious with it disabled.. or perhaps it's a quirk of the algorithm, I'm not sure. Whatever it is for that reason I usually prefer it to be disabled.

madshi

22nd January 2013, 12:00

I tried to follow your advice but unfortunately it didn't help.
Attached you'll find the madvr-settings I used and the log-file as well.
You've left the madVR list of display modes empty. That way madVR does not know which display mode to switch to. Try entering there: "1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60". Of course you should only enter modes that your GPU actually supports. If it only supports 24.000Hz but not 23.976Hz then remove 1080p23 from the list, etc...

Madshi following the bug i reported with FFDSHOW dxva, where do you stand on it? Is it something you're willing to look into, or are you not interested in supporting ffdshow compared to lav?
Why would you want to use the ffdshow DXVA decoder? I guess I can put it on my list of things to check, but I don't think many people are using that decoder today, considering the LAV Video Decoder should offer the same features and is actively developed. In any case, this will be low priority for me, unless there are several users who're still using ffdshow DXVA for some reason and suffer from the same problem, too.

iSunrise

22nd January 2013, 13:47

And going back to the HD gamut conspiracy theory, I now have that CRT perfectly calibrated and all the latest HD movies I tried looked grossly undersaturated in SMPTE-C....I also couldn't see any diff between EBU and REC.709 for european HD movies, which kinda makes sense (http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/ressources/image/54227). so indeed what may have appeared to be true half a decade earlier might very well not be anymore. I'll keep rolling them but it's rather clear that I'll have to make a new PotP automatic profile for HD@24p=REC.709 :cool:
Until this very day, I haven´t seen too many examples where SMPTE-C was completely out of the question (apart from e.x. some native EBU or content you are 100% sure, because you filmed it yourself with a HD cam), so that REC.709 profile might make for some nice trial and error, but according to my Eizo CG243W, which has hardware calibrated profiles for e.x. SMPTE-C and REC.709, SMPTE-C still is the way to go. There´s just too much content out there where you´re either completely unsure or you don´t have the background to make such decisions, so I´ll keep with SMPTE-C. Everything else is just guess work. Often times if your assuming "undersaturated", you just want it to be more "catchy" and thus are making false decisions, because your brain wants it to look more appealing.

E.x. The Dark Knight Rises looks completely oversaturated and unfamiliar with REC.709 to a point where it gets annoying fast.

leeperry

22nd January 2013, 15:04

Oh indeed, in TDKR flesh tones look terribly greenish in REC.709.....oh well, I'll keep rolling the darn gamuts then, luckily I can do it in two mouse clicks now and it works in pause mode too http://forum.slysoft.com/images/smilies/agreed.gif

6233638

22nd January 2013, 16:43

oh indeed, in tdkr flesh tones look terribly greenish in rec.709.....oh well, i'll keep rolling the darn gamuts then, luckily i can do it in two mouse clicks now and it works in pause mode too http://forum.slysoft.com/images/smilies/agreed.gif
ctrl + alt + shift + p

Duffy Moon

22nd January 2013, 18:12

ctrl + alt + shift + p

Or indeed whatever key combo you want. I changed mine to ctrl + shift + p due to the difficulty of pressing 4 keys on my diNovo Mini keyboard.

23rd January 2013, 14:50

hi,

sorry if this has been answered somewhere in this thread, but.. what's the difference between using madvr decoders in favor of MPC decoders, and why should I choose one over another?

konakona

23rd January 2013, 17:15

hi,

sorry if this has been answered somewhere in this thread, but.. what's the difference between using madvr decoders in favor of MPC decoders, and why should I choose one over another?

i suggest using LAV decoder for best quality-unless you meant renderer instead of decoder,then madvr is superior because of much better image quality it provides.

LaUs3r

23rd January 2013, 18:21

You've left the madVR list of display modes empty. That way madVR does not know which display mode to switch to. Try entering there: "1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60". Of course you should only enter modes that your GPU actually supports. If it only supports 24.000Hz but not 23.976Hz then remove 1080p23 from the list, etc...

yeah, this works....I thought that the list of display modes is optional :rolleyes:
thx, for your help!!!

madshi

23rd January 2013, 18:48

madVR v0.85.8 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

* fixed: 3:2 IVTC timestamps (film mode forced on) were not optimal
* fixed: files which turn from progressive to interlaced don't get deint
* fixed: SoftCubic + Mitchell produced artifacts with exact 3x scaling
* fixed: frame stepping sometimes froze for up to 3 seconds
* fixed: some bugs found through crash report emails
* fixed: videos with non-mod-4 height were unnecessarily cropped
* fixed: when using DXVA decoding, 60i clips sometimes switched to 30Hz
* fixed: "refreshRate" tag didn't work
* added "repeated frames" OSD info (only when framerate = refresh rate)
* added new interface IMadVRSubclassReplacement (for JRiver MC18)
* added support for "deint=ivtc" tag
* internal software video decoders are now disabled by default
Thanks everyone for sending crash reports. I'm not always replying to every such report, but they're useful. I think I fixed 3 crash causes in this build thanks to those reports.

aufkrawall

23rd January 2013, 18:55

Thanks for that mainly bugfix release. :)
Really appreciate it, especially since you have to care for your commercial projects.

mark0077

23rd January 2013, 18:59

Thanks madshi. Frame repeats is a great addition.

madshi

23rd January 2013, 19:00

Surely that's the problem. Even 23.977 vs 23.976 (far more accurate than most GPUs out of the box) results in a drop every 17mins. To guarantee no drops in a movie you would need almost 10 times that accuracy, which is pretty hard even with custom timings.
I think that's a nice idea in theory, but it depends where the point it has to drop frames is. While your current sync may theoretically allow for 10 hours of playback without dropped/repeated frames, in practice that point seems to happen during a film. At least I've never had perfect playback even when my refresh has been 24.00008 and the content is 24fps native, for example.
FWIW, yesterday I've watched a 2 hour 30 minutes movie and madVR reported 2 frame repeats (no frame drops) during the movie runtime. The debug OSD suggested one repeat every 1.4 hours, which seems to match reality. I didn't notice the frame drops, probably they were during some non-action scenes. Of course it would be nice to have 0 frame repeats/drops. But I think 2 frame repeats for a 2.5 hour movie (without using Reclock) I can live with.

SamuriHL

23rd January 2013, 19:12

added new interface IMadVRSubclassReplacement (for JRiver MC18)

What's that one do if I may ask? Just curious. Thanks!

madshi

23rd January 2013, 19:16

What's that one do if I may ask? Just curious. Thanks!
It's for fixing a crash problem when using madVR with MC18's "detached display" feature.

JustinChase

23rd January 2013, 19:20

It's for fixing a crash problem when using madVR with MC18's "detached display" feature.

i.e. My belated birthday gift!!

Thanks madshi :)

mark0077

23rd January 2013, 19:40

SamuriHL

23rd January 2013, 19:44

It's for fixing a crash problem when using madVR with MC18's "detached display" feature.

Sweet thanks!

bugmen0t

23rd January 2013, 20:06

Don't know if this longstanding small cosmetic issue was ever mentioned so here it is: madVRs OSD sometimes shows "1 frame repeat every 1.#J days" i.e. division by zero results in infinity, i guess.

Matching_Mole

23rd January 2013, 22:30

madVR v0.85.8 released
* fixed: 3:2 IVTC timestamps (film mode forced on) were not optimal
Thnak you very much Madshi, I tested the 0.85.8 and I confirm that the vsync issue is gone!! The smoothness of the IVTC is now perfect, I'm so happy!!

Thanks again.

dansrfe

23rd January 2013, 23:25

Holy crap madshi (and I speak for the rest of us when I say this) we love you! IVTC is smooth as butter now. 29.976 -> 23.976 with the monitor set to 48Hz by madVR and with Reclock taking it to 24.000 fps makes it perfect!

Thanks so much! :)

Eventually I'm going to encode the few DVDs I still have to mkv files via AviSynth with IVTC, etc. but for now madVR is taking care of it very well :D

madshi

23rd January 2013, 23:45

madshi, repeated frames don't appear for me. My display is at 60hz. I'm interpolating everything to 60hz using SVP so the rates pretty much match exactly.

Does it only work if the original file rate matches the display rate or should it work if the actual rate after passing through the other filters in the chain matches the display rate.
The "movie fps (says source filter)" must roughly match the refresh rate.

Don't know if this longstanding small cosmetic issue was ever mentioned so here it is: madVRs OSD sometimes shows "1 frame repeat every 1.#J days" i.e. division by zero results in infinity, i guess.
Minor cosmetic issue = ultra low priority for now.

Thnak you very much Madshi, I tested the 0.85.8 and I confirm that the vsync issue is gone!! The smoothness of the IVTC is now perfect, I'm so happy!!
Holy crap madshi (and I speak for the rest of us when I say this) we love you! IVTC is smooth as butter now. 29.976 -> 23.976 with the monitor set to 48Hz by madVR and with Reclock taking it to 24.000 fps makes it perfect!
Glad to hear that.

DragonQ

24th January 2013, 00:10

The automatic enabling/disabling of deinterlacing for MBAFF content seems to work fine, thanks.

njfoses

24th January 2013, 01:23

madVR v0.85.8 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

[code]* fixed: 3:2 IVTC timestamps (film mode forced on) were not optimal
* fixed: files which turn from progressive to interlaced don't get deint

Should we just leave deinterlacing at default now instead of forcing film mode?

ryrynz

24th January 2013, 01:52

Madshi, your Jinc Chroma speed enhancement didn't make it into this build? an 0.86 enhancement then?

wanezhiling

24th January 2013, 01:59

internal software video decoders are now disabled by default

Seems still be enabled by default.:)

robpdotcom

24th January 2013, 02:30

* added "repeated frames" OSD info (only when framerate = refresh rate)

Should this also work when IVTC'ing, and the refresh rate is 23Hz?

Niyawa

24th January 2013, 03:41

Hey madshi, since it's a new build I should mention something. Do you plan to fix the issue with ReClock in 24p@60Hz that you mentioned some time ago any soon? I kinda miss ReClock here. Oh, about that bug I was having with Overlay and stuff, seems like it totally disappears the moment I use copy-back instead of native in DXVA2, strange stuff.

Seems still be enabled by default.:)
Here they are disabled by default, are you sure you didn't miss anything?

ryrynz

24th January 2013, 06:42

Seems still be enabled by default.:)

Here they are disabled by default, are you sure you didn't miss anything?

Wanezhiling is correct, if I click on the reset default settings batch file the internal filters are still enabled. If I disable the internal filters and click on the default settings batch they're enabled again.

Niyawa

24th January 2013, 07:09

Wanezhiling is correct, if I click on the reset default settings batch file the internal filters are still enabled. If I disable the internal filters and click on the default settings batch they're enabled again.
Make sure you run in Admin. I did it only by double click and it didn't reset anything.

truexfan81

24th January 2013, 07:15

can i get an opinion on a graphics card? its main usage is going to be for mpc-hc with lav cuvid, and madvr

link (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2942392&CatId=7387)

thanks

cyberbeing

24th January 2013, 07:25

As others have already confirmed, 3:2 IVTC is now nice and smooth @96Hz & @120Hz with the TS samples I sent you. Thanks.

added "repeated frames" OSD info (only when framerate = refresh rate)
How does this differ from the "delayed frames" OSD stat?

ryrynz

24th January 2013, 07:26

Make sure you run in Admin. I did it only by double click and it didn't reset anything.

It's definitely doing something, if I disable the filters the reset enables them which wouldn't be happening if there was an issue with permissions.

Niyawa

24th January 2013, 07:37

It's definitely doing something, if I disable the filters the reset enables them which wouldn't be happening if there was an issue with permissions.
That's strange indeed. I double clicked like you did, and everything was on default, internal filters were disabled. Only madshi can look into it and see if it's a bug or something.

A question for everyone, this is a somewhat unrelated, but if I were to use madVR + LAV Video decoder with DXVA2 enabled, which one would be the best option: native or copy-back? I have an Intel GMA 4500MHD. Also madshi, seems like if I use (copy-back) the OSD doesn't show the [DXVA2] on it.

nevcairiel

24th January 2013, 08:10

A question for everyone, this is a somewhat unrelated, but if I were to use madVR + LAV Video decoder with DXVA2 enabled, which one would be the best option: native or copy-back?

Personally i prefer copy-back, because its just less hassle and allows all madVR features, like IVTC which currently doesn't work with Native.
On some GPUs madVR will even do its own "copy-back" internally because its currently the only way for it to get maximum quality, but i think thats mostly limited to NVIDIA, IIRC. In this case, copy-back or CUVID is even more to be recommended, as the performance penality is nearly the same, and using cb/cuvid gives you the flexibility again.

However, you should only use Copy-Back if you have a SSE 4.1 capable CPU (introduced with Penryn Core2 models, on the AMD side only with Bulldozer)

seems like if I use (copy-back) the OSD doesn't show the [DXVA2] on it.

Thats to be expected, and part of the whole idea that is copy-back. With copy-back, all DXVA stuff stays internal to the decoder, and the outside world has no clue that DXVA is being used - which means it has the full flexibility of a software decoder and none of the DXVA Native limitations.

wanezhiling

24th January 2013, 08:39

DXVA copy-back costs too much than Intel GMA 4500MHD has, which is only about 1/3 performance of a slow card like GT520/HD6450...:)

madshi

24th January 2013, 09:26

Should we just leave deinterlacing at default now instead of forcing film mode?
Nothing has changed. If you know that the content is film, forcing film mode will do proper IVTC (60i -> 24p) while with default mode you'll get DXVA deinterlacing (60i -> 60p). Same as with previous versions...

Madshi, your Jinc Chroma speed enhancement didn't make it into this build? an 0.86 enhancement then?
Not sure what you mean? The Jinc Chroma speed enhancement has been built in since v0.85.5. See changelog.

Seems still be enabled by default.:)
Oh. I can reproduce it. Weird, will have to double check...

Should this also work when IVTC'ing, and the refresh rate is 23Hz?
Oh well, it should, but I'm not sure if it does. Will have to check...

Hey madshi, since it's a new build I should mention something. Do you plan to fix the issue with ReClock in 24p@60Hz that you mentioned some time ago any soon?
Which bug do you mean? I don't remember...

can i get an opinion on a graphics card? its main usage is going to be for mpc-hc with lav cuvid, and madvr

link (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2942392&CatId=7387)

thanks
Please no. You should at least pick a card with GDDR5 memory, IMHO. I'd go no lower than a 650. If you want to use Jinc AR for both chroma and image upscaling with 60p (or natively interlaced 60i) content then you might even want to consider a 660. However, if you're willing to make a few compromises, a 650 should do nicely. Just don't expect to be able to crank up all settings to the max with high framerate videos.

P.S: Just to make sure there are no misunderstandings: A 640 with DDR3 memory will still be able to run madVR "just fine" (with reasonable settings). I just think that for a very modest price increase you can get a quite big performance boost by going for a 650 with GDDR5.

How does this differ from the "delayed frames" OSD stat?
A "delayed frame" means that madVR had planned to present a frame for VSync number X but for some reason things went wrong and presentation was done at VSync number X+1 (or +2, +3, ...) instead. Basically a "delayed frame" is a presentation accident. It should usually only occur in windowed/overlay mode (and only if the refresh rate is higher than the movie framerate), but not in fullscreen exclusive mode.

A "repeated frame" happens if madVR has to show one frame for 2 VSync intervals, in order to keep audio and video in sync. So this is not an accident but it's a planned frame repeat which is necessary because framerate and refresh rate mismatch.

So when *not* using Reclock, you should try to optimize your refresh rate so that during the runtime of a movie you get max 1-2 frame drops or repeats. If you get frame drops, your refresh rate is too low. If you get frame repeats, your refresh rate is too high. This all only applies if the movie framerate and the refresh rate are reasonably close. If you use your 120Hz output, this all doesn't apply. For reasons of non-optimal refresh rate you'll never get either frame drops or frame repeats listed in the OSD when using 120Hz because there'll be so many frame repeats (120-24 = 96 per second) that it just doesn't make sense to even count them.

truexfan81

24th January 2013, 09:42

Please no. You should at least pick a card with GDDR5 memory, IMHO. I'd go no lower than a 650. If you want to use Jinc AR for both chroma and image upscaling with 60p (or natively interlaced 60i) content then you might even want to consider a 660. However, if you're willing to make a few compromises, a 650 should do nicely. Just don't expect to be able to crank up all settings to the max with high framerate videos.

P.S: Just to make sure there are no misunderstandings: A 640 with DDR3 memory will still be able to run madVR "just fine" (with reasonable settings). I just think that for a very modest price increase you can get a quite big performance boost by going for a 650 with GDDR5.

ok madshi how about this?
link (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4501123&CatId=7387)