madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[oldpainlesskodi]

Nvidia Driver 390.65 out - MadVR HDR fixed (as madshi said it would - nice).

K

[mclingo]

luma is more important than chroma.....

Thanks, you're probably more sensitive to PQ differences than me, I only see a difference on sub 1080 material and only a small fraction of my collection is this size.

[Siso]

correct me if i'm wrong but it is cheaper that's why. NGU low was comparable(faster) in speed to super xbr.

That's good, but how about in terms of quality?

[aufkrawall]

the biggest possible problem in such a setup should be the PCIe speed. i'm not sure if UHD 60 FPS can be done with PCIe 3 x8

Of course it can be done with Nvidia, I had no problems with 16x PCIe 2.0 (which is the same bandwidth).

[huhn]

well i hope you tested that with heavy subtitles which could increases bandwidth need by by let's say "a lot".

the x4 is the real problem you need a 8x board in the first place...

@Siso
try it out it's fine.

[aufkrawall]

well i hope you tested that with heavy subtitles which could increases bandwidth need by by let's say "a lot".

Why would subtitles increase bandwidth by a lot? Is the whole subtitle container (or how you'd call it) resend for every frame?

[mclingo]

I too dont think the PCI express 2.0 will be a bottleneck, if a PCI-E SSd can surpass 500mb/s thats more then enough bandwidth.

[Asmodian]

Why would subtitles increase bandwidth by a lot? Is the whole subtitle container (or how you'd call it) resend for every frame?

They are rendered to images on the CPU at the display resolution.

[clsid]

That is not true for text based subtitles. Only PGS subs sometimes are encoded at resolution as video, which then gets scaled.

[huhn]

They are rendered to images on the CPU at the display resolution.
that would add zero bandwidth and vsfilter does it this way.
the "new subtitle interface" it uploading image that are scaled or even uploaded at the target resolution.
remember the nnedi3 copyback issue which was at best 120 FPS for FHD.

I too dont think the PCI express 2.0 will be a bottleneck, if a PCI-E SSd can surpass 500mb/s thats more then enough bandwidth.

a 8 bit UHD 60 fps file needs 746 mb/s ignoring overhead and stuff like this...
the point is not pcie 16x 2.0 but if pcie 4x 3.0 works.

[Asmodian]

that would add zero bandwidth and vsfilter does it this way.
the "new subtitle interface" it uploading image that are scaled or even uploaded at the target resolution.


Wouldn't it add the bandwidth of the images? Do all subtitles only need to upload the image to the GPU once for each title (not for every frame)?

[nevcairiel]

Do all subtitles only need to upload the image to the GPU once for each title (not for every frame)?

If done properly, sure, unless its animated.

[psyside]

Hello my friend, and thanks alot for helping me.

Ill try to explain the best i can.

I want to watch 4K videos/movies, and make the look the best possible with GTX750 ti/1050 ti/GTX960/GT1030. The monitor is 1080p, and the clips are in 4K in the format i posted previously.

I need to know, if i "max out" the madVR settings, will any of this card be able to play the 4K clips which i provided the format/codecs/info for without issues? for example you select all the best looking - processing/renderer settings in madVR panel, and get the best image quality out of the videos? i understand this is called downscaling? also for future X265 formats, for the same kind of usage, when the S9 will be released.

I got this option now for (USED) and some new cards,

GTX750 ti 4GB - 80$, GTX960 4GB - 140$, GTX 1050 2GB (new) 2GB - 160$, GT1030 2GB (new) 90$

I will be also connecting them with mu U2414h, would some of the madVR modes require, a special HDMI/DP standards? and as a final note, would 960 or 1050 offer anything at all more compared to the 750 ti 4gb, and will it worth to pay double for them? would the 2gb be bottleneck for youtube 4k/8k60? on the 1050 or for madVR? thanks.

P.S. I'm not from USA, where i live, those are the prices i can get for new/used cards.


Anyone can help?

[ryrynz]

psyside read Asmodian's (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171787) guide. He also has a config you can download.

[psyside]

psyside read Asmodian's (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171787) guide. He also has a config you can download.

Thanks, but i don't see gpu recommendations, or answers for the cards i can/should get?

[ryrynz]

The recommendation is always whatever card you can afford. Personally I can only recommend Nvidia GPUs for MadVR.

[psyside]

The recommendation is always whatever card you can afford. Personally I can only recommend Nvidia GPUs for MadVR.

Yes, but what would you pick if you can, (what is best regarding price/performance and will it work good enough for my use?)

GTX960 4gb for 120 usd

GTX750 ti 4gb for 80 usd

GTX1050 2gb for 160 usd

GTX 1050 ti 4gb for 200 usd

[ryrynz]

960 is best value for scaling performance/enhancement out of all those.

[psyside]

960 is best value for scaling performance/enhancement out of all those.

So based on this post, (https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1829886&postcount=48197) the 960 is the winner generally? thanks and sorry all for the spam! :o

[ryrynz]

You don't need to really do much to the video when downscaling from 4K. You won't be able to use SSIM2D which is considered the most favorable downscaler by most here but you can use 1D or anything else.
The 1050Ti is slightly better but only if you're happy with spending the $80, you figure it out.

Also my 960 2Gb handles 4K 60FPS and 4K HDR no problem, I'm only using around 1-1.5GB for the 4K downscaling so if you can score a 1060 3GB for around $200 do it, it would be the best card to get.

[psyside]

You don't need to really do much to the video when downscaling from 4K. You won't be able to use SSIM2D which is considered the most favorable downscaler by most here but you can use 1D or anything else.
The 1050Ti is slightly better but only if you're happy with spending the $80, you figure it out.

Also my 960 2Gb handles 4K 60FPS and 4K HDR no problem, I'm only using around 1-1.5GB for the 4K downscaling so if you can score a 1060 3GB for around $200 do it, it would be the best card to get.

I have found it, its 300$ where i live, and its the worst model lol :(

How much of a difference in ( "% gains" - IQ) can SSIM2D make vs the next best method?

[ryrynz]

It's personal preference, it's just the most advanced upscaler and delivers a very natural picture not the sharpest. For example huhn hates bicubic 150 but on my plasma I prefer it over SSIM 1D.
Also to be noted is that my 960 will not handle HDR in high quality, I have to 'let madVR decide' with low quality so if you want the best HDR downscaling you'll want the 1050Ti at least (for 60fps)

[psyside]

It's personal preference, it's just the most advanced upscaler and delivers a very natural picture not the sharpest. For example huhn hates bicubic 150 but on my plasma I prefer it over SSIM 1D.
Also to be noted is that my 960 will not handle HDR in high quality, I have to 'let madVR decide' with low quality so if you want the best HDR downscaling you'll want the 1050Ti at least (for 60fps)

1050 ti 2gb wont work right?

Thanks so much!

[ryrynz]

It'll work fine, but you'll probably want to upgrade sooner, 2GB only just gets you by. Will end the discussion here, gone on long enough you have everything you need to know.

[Manni]

@Madshi

I was able to upgrade to 390.65 and get everything working (although it's still not possible to select bit depth when using a 23p custom res, you have to select bit depth with the native res at 30p or 60p and then only select the 23p custom res). That's a minor driver bug, and nothing to do with MadVR of course.

I also had to use a different timing set, as the usual that would give me 50mn between drops made no difference. But after an optimize of one of the recommended sets, I got similar or better results than before.

I have one request (not new but issue is still there): once I have a 4K23 custom res optimized, I have near perfect playback for 99% of my content as I have almost nothing at 50p or 60p (have to try optimize these, not had the time to do so yet).

But 3D (mk3D) still gets a frame drop every 2 minutes or so, which is barely acceptable. Is there any way to optimize separately 1080p23FP, so that we can optimize 3D playback and get decent frame drops? It's not a processing/rendering issue, there is plenty of power left, all buffers full. It's really a sync/refresh rate issue. Note: although the 3D wizard now works, 3D still gets disabled after HDR playback, so the batch files are still necessary to get consistent/reliable 3D playback. Any way to start these batch files automatically on 3D playback? Or would it be too late if it's MadVR who does it? Maybe it has to be done in player/frontend.

Thanks for considering this (especially 1080p23FP rate optimization) if it's technically possible.

[mclingo]

@Madshi

I was able to upgrade to 390.65 a......

i'm not seeing that with 3D MVC on my AMD card, its perfect, no drops , repeats or anything, is it that when it goes into 3D its not using your custom res in MADVR maybe, what does your control J screen look like, its it pushing out 23.97X? or 23,980 as my 1050 used to do before i added the custom res in MADVR.

[Manni]

i'm not seeing that with 3D MVC on my AMD card.

This is an nVidia issue only, Madshi knows it. I had an HD7870 before the 1080ti and never had that problem, but I had many others.

It would be great if you could realize that not everyone has the issues you have, and some people can get issues you don't experience, especially with different GPUs, OSes etc.

I don't need help on this, I'm only (re)reporting the issue and asking Madshi if he thinks he can do something about it.

[Blackwalker]

reading i see that a 1050 ti its ok, but what about a "EVGA GTX1060 SC 6GB"?
i'd like to use the max settings and quality
thanks :)

[mclingo]

reading i see that a 1050 ti its ok, but what about a "EVGA GTX1060 SC 6GB"?
i'd like to use the max settings and quality
thanks :)

Hi, not sure anyone could accurately recommend any card just based on that criteria, its difficult as everyone's machines and requirements are different.

perhaps we should look a this a different way, perhaps Just treat this like we would if we were choosing the card for gaming, just get the fastest 4k capable card we can for the money we have, no more discussion then required :)

What I mean is they are all capable 4K cards but you get diminishing returns the more money you pump into them, in my opinion so just decide on a budget and stick to it.

[mrmarioman]

HDR still not working properly here with new Nvidia drivers.
Now it doesn't turn on the Windows' HDR toggle, but I'm still not getting the right colors. With my Samsung TV, if I choose the colour space 'native', it gives me something that aproximates what it should look like, but it's not correct. You have to select 'auto' in the colour space option to get the correct HDR colours. With 'auto' it looks 'kinda' washed out, or better described: it looks like SDR. In contrast, the desktop looks super saturated and vibrant with colours. But it must be something about my hardware since nobody seems to have any trouble here. oh well.

[psyside]

It'll work fine, but you'll probably want to upgrade sooner, 2GB only just gets you by. Will end the discussion here, gone on long enough you have everything you need to know.

Thanks alot my friend! i have got the 750 ti and the 960 on test :)

Now please help me with the settings :P

Here is what i got at the moment, what i can change for better results in playing of 4K H264 video > downscaled to 1080p?



https://image.prntscr.com/image/W-daJpvAT8qmLR2jL_Zgog.png

https://image.prntscr.com/image/RtWszVppQdW9OaLNHcT3pA.png


https://image.prntscr.com/image/o5P_mMcETfGv_uZ871KmJQ.png


https://image.prntscr.com/image/6BlXSMqeTFSgymDYpJaJCg.png

https://image.prntscr.com/image/yO45VC-1S4iNcDdhZqtnzA.png

https://image.prntscr.com/image/7lrGReSKQaKbmTePJWX7NA.png

https://image.prntscr.com/image/__pbvTzlQTeTU1VJ6yGHYA.png

https://image.prntscr.com/image/UhlbQhAwRiGAB9Kw-e9H5w.png

https://image.prntscr.com/image/hdE5C7zgTP6ATVyCmmjaJA.png

[mclingo]

HDR still not working properly here with new Nvidia drivers.
Now it doesn't turn on the Windows' HDR toggle, but I'm still not getting the right colors. With my Samsung TV, if I choose the colour space 'native', it gives me something that aproximates what it should look like, but it's not correct. You have to select 'auto' in the colour space option to get the correct HDR colours. With 'auto' it looks 'kinda' washed out, or better described: it looks like SDR. In contrast, the desktop looks super saturated and vibrant with colours. But it must be something about my hardware since nobody seems to have any trouble here. oh well.

Hi, if you manually put windows in HDR mode does you TV switch to HDR automatically? or do you not have a HDR TV and you converting HDR material to SDR using MADVR?

[mclingo]

Thanks alot my friend! i have got the 750 ti and the 960 on test :)

Now please help me with the settings :P




Hi, turn off artefact removal completely, you wont need this unless your material is or horrifically bad, this will make a real mess of a 1080p / 4k print, I've only ever used this once or twice ever.

[mrmarioman]

Hi, if you manually put windows in HDR mode does you TV switch to HDR automatically? or do you not have a HDR TV and you converting HDR material to SDR using MADVR?

Yes, it does. I have a HDR10 TV. It's not great (KU7000), but it supports HDR. Watching the same content with the TV player, colours look much better and vibrant.

[psyside]

Hi, turn off artefact removal completely, you wont need this unless your material is or horrifically bad, this will make a real mess of a 1080p / 4k print, I've only ever used this once or twice ever.

I use madVR to watch some of the clips i shot with my S8, does this count or i should still turn it off? since when im into a bit darker parts, there is noise/artefacts, thanks :)

[mclingo]

Yes, it does. I have a HDR10 TV. It's not great (KU7000), but it supports HDR. Watching the same content with the TV player, colours look much better and vibrant.

do you have your TV set in deep colour mode on you PC HDMI port?, is your PC setup as 4:2:0 10 bit, if not drop it into that mode for now as a diagnostic step.

Make sure FSE is off and Direct3D is ticked in MADVR in rendering, you should also set MADVR to passthru for HDR.

might also be worth a clean driver install, I think people have suggested HDR is now fixed with they latest drivers.

[mclingo]

I use madVR to watch some of the clips i shot with my S8, does this count or i should still turn it off? since when im into a bit darker parts, there is noise/artefacts, thanks :)

you can set this up on a key to toggle off and on, set it off by default and turn it on if your clip is very bad i'd say, i'd be suprised if they were that bad though, I have an S8 and my clips are really quite good in SDR and HDR.

[nussman]

Hi, turn off artefact removal completely, you wont need this unless your material is or horrifically bad, this will make a real mess of a 1080p / 4k print, I've only ever used this once or twice ever.
This is not true. I.e. many HD sources have banding artefacts ...

[Blackwalker]

Hi, not sure anyone could accurately recommend any card just based on that criteria, its difficult as everyone's machines and requirements are different.

perhaps we should look a this a different way, perhaps Just treat this like we would if we were choosing the card for gaming, just get the fastest 4k capable card we can for the money we have, no more discussion then required :)

What I mean is they are all capable 4K cards but you get diminishing returns the more money you pump into them, in my opinion so just decide on a budget and stick to it.

i agree but i'm using a 1050 with 2gb and memory is always full
Maybe with high memory i can get better results
i need also to upgrade CPU and motherboard on my htpc, i have a i5 950 with a good asus motherboarth with 6GB of ram.

anyway thx for your reply :)

[mclingo]

This is not true. I.e. many HD sources have banding artefacts ...

HD streaming rips can be quite bad I know, some movies like snowpiercer also need a bit and where this does clean up the some of the mess it cripples the overall sharpness of the image so I stand by my comments, off by default, on when you feel its required... but try and avoid it.

[mclingo]

i agree but i'm using a 1050 with 2gb and memory is always full
Maybe with high memory i can get better results
i need also to upgrade CPU and motherboard on my htpc, i have a i5 950 with a good asus motherboarth with 6GB of ram.

anyway thx for your reply :)

have a think about what you want to achieve first, I have a much faster system than you but my GFX card is slower, I'm really happy with my picture quality just using NGU sharp medium, you may find after spending a crap load of money and pushing MADVR to the max you dont see that much difference in PQ, is it worth the outlay?

If you play everything well enough with the kit you have and you're not getting dropped frames perhaps just keep what you have.

[nekrovski]

madvr settings
Use lanczos pixel shader instead of cubic.

[yok833]

With my GTX 1080, when I try to create a custom resolution for a "23hz" mode in madvr everything works nicely except that it also automatically creates a custom "24hz" mode in the nvidia panel. Unfortunatly, it is not possible to choose 12bit with 24hz in the Nvidia panel so i have no other choice than to stay with 8bit when I want to use madvr custom resolution :(
Is someone know how to fix this Nvidia bug ?

[Vegekou]

I have a problem with madVR+MPC—HC64 https://streamable.com/ar0cl Anybody can help me to solve it or it’s just a bug?

[mclingo]

you are playing a 23,976 movie at 60 hz so this is why you are getting frame repeats. if you arent bothered about that and you are reffering to the screen going black intermittently i'm not sure, does your receiver screen or TV suggest there is a hdmi handshake loss?

if you change the renderer back to the standard instead of MADVR does it play normally?

[Vegekou]

you are playing a 23,976 movie at 60 hz so this is why you are getting frame repeats. if you arent bothered about that and you are reffering to the screen going black intermittently i'm not sure, does your receiver screen or TV suggest there is a hdmi handshake loss?

if you change the renderer back to the standard instead of MADVR does it play normally?

I usually don't get dropped frames, except when I move the mouse cursor on the seek bar. In that case I get dropped frames, glitches and the screen goes black intermittently.
I think it's because of the last Intel video driver (23.20.16.4901 - Intel HD 520) but I'm not sure.
All the renders works good except for madVR.

[mclingo]

yeah sounds like it, drop back to an earlier driver then to test Also, i'd set up madvr up properly, get 1080p23 into display modes in MADVR so it plays the movies at the correct rate.

[Vegekou]

yeah sounds like it, drop back to an earlier driver then to test Also, i'd set up madvr up properly, get 1080p23 into display modes in MADVR so it plays the movies at the correct rate.

Same result with previous driver 23.20.16.4849

EDIT:

It works good with driver:
21.20.16.4550 (11/2016 - from windows update)
22.20.16.4718 (09/2017 - from HP)

[Asmodian]

I think people have suggested HDR is now fixed with they latest drivers.

They are fixed! HDR works perfectly for me now, madVR turns on HDR automatically but Windows' HDR mode doesn't turn on. Ideal. :)

[ShyK]

Hi, madshi. madvr currently has two gamma correction problems.

Please consider adding gamma correction / "linear light" to all upscaling modes. It's really a basic thing that should be available for upscaling same as it is available for downscaling.

The Jinc interpolation with the anti-ringing filter is an exceptional solution for natural-looking results with very highly reduced "aliasing" and a relatively very low amount of processing power. The problem is that in upscaling, it's largely ruined by the lack of gamma correction.

For comparison, here are upscaling results with similar, catmull-rom filters:

original image (https://www.musepack.net/temp/scaling.png)

madvr-x2-catrom-sigmoidal-off (https://www.musepack.net/temp/scaling-madvr-x2-catrom-sigmoidal-off.png)
madvr-x2-catrom-sigmoidal-on (https://www.musepack.net/temp/scaling-madvr-x2-catrom-sigmoidal-on.png)
imageworsener-x2-catrom (https://www.musepack.net/temp/scaling-imageworsener-x2-catrom.png)

Sigmoidal light even makes the gamma-related "artifacts" worse.

Currently, only NGU has gamma correction for upscaling, so I'm comparing with NGU Soft, luma doubling and chroma "very high", quadrupling disabled.

madvr-x2-ngusoft (https://www.musepack.net/temp/scaling-madvr-x2-ngusoft.png)

This is the same effect as what happens in downscaling, but it's much more disturbing in upscaling, because...it's upscaled. Since ImageWorsener, ImageMagick, GIMP and a few other programs give better results that are similar to each other, then I guess it means madvr just has a different, more "lenient" gamma correction implementation, but it's not better nor as good.


Example with downscaling:
madvr-x0.5-catrom (https://www.musepack.net/temp/scaling-madvr-x0.5-catrom.png)
madvr-x0.5-catrom-nocorrection (https://www.musepack.net/temp/scaling-madvr-x0.5-catrom-nocorrection.png)
imageworsener-x0.5-catrom (https://www.musepack.net/temp/scaling-imageworsener-x0.5-catrom.png)
imageworsener-x0.5-catrom-nocorrection (https://www.musepack.net/temp/scaling-imageworsener-x0.5-catrom-nocorrection.png)

Without gamma correction, pretty much identical. With gamma correction, as mentioned above, the "artifacts" are more visible in madvr.

I'll just mention that the problems are not limited to this single image. I've compared using other images, and madvr's gamma correction is always worse. I'm just using this test image because it's the best for easily showcasing the problems. I'm sure you could easily improve the gamma correction and enable it for upscaling as well, and thus make madvr not just the highest quality video renderer, but also the best video and image scaling software available. On that note, I'll just add that a custom width/height box in the screenshots menu would be very useful.
Thanks.