BD Rebuilder Beta - Bug Reports Only

[sieve]

When is it failing? Do you have a menu? Is it failing when you try the menu or when you select a title? I just did the procedure I mentioned with no menu and it worked fine. I'll try one with a menu next. I have my doubts, though, since the menu is always 1920x1080...

There is a menu that lists the 12 episodes. That displays fine. When I select an episode to play, it does play, but does not display video. Only audio and subtitles work. The TV does flash a message that the resolution changed. Oddly, it says "576p" even though the actual source is 576i.

[sieve]

Send it via e-mail

I sent you a 3 second clip

[jdobbs]

When is it failing? Do you have a menu? Is it failing when you try the menu or when you select a title? I just did the procedure I mentioned with no menu and it worked fine. I'll try one with a menu next. I have my doubts, though, since the menu is always 1920x1080...I sent you a 3 second clipI just tried one with a menu, and it worked fine as well. The video is 480p/23.976.

[sieve]

I just tried one with a menu, and it worked fine as well. The video is 480p/23.976.

Then that's what I need to achieve.... The clip I sent you is 575i 25, which is the same as the original source. The methods and settings I've been using don't seem to convert it.

[MrVideo]

I guess I'll poor over the two different ini's to see what it was...
I think you mean pour. :D

[MrVideo]

Blu-ray is a global standard, there is no need to convert from "PAL" to "NTSC" .....
Especially since in the digital world there is no such thing as NTSC, or PAL (both are analog specifications). I gather that is why you quoted the terms.

Just transfer the video files from the DVD to a Blu-ray. BD-RB can be used to create Blu-rays with menus, without recoding. Recoding MPEG-2 video from DVDs to H.264 is not recommended. The DVD MPEG-2 bitrate is too low. Recoding will add encoding errors.

[Ch3vr0n]

No such thing as PAL or NTSC huh? You try telling that to the DVD alliance. Try playing a PAL DVD on a NTSC player. You'll have either A) no video, B) no audio, C) glitchy B&W video, D) all of the previous. There's no such thing as pal or ntsc FOR BLU-RAY only. On DVD's it's very much existing.

[jdobbs]

Especially since in the digital world there is no such thing as NTSC, or PAL (both are analog specifications). I gather that is why you quoted the terms.

Just transfer the video files from the DVD to a Blu-ray. BD-RB can be used to create Blu-rays with menus, without recoding. Recoding MPEG-2 video from DVDs to H.264 is not recommended. The DVD MPEG-2 bitrate is too low. Recoding will add encoding errors.I wish people would stop saying that. They both still exist. Things still fail when attempting to use the wrong standard in the other parts of the world. Constantly telling people they can ignore it is incorrect and not helpful.

By the way, I just did a search and the term NTSC is referenced more than 40 times in the Blu-Ray standard.

[Lathe]

I think you mean pour. :D

DOHHHHHHHHH! http://lathe-of-heaven.com/doh.gif

[Lathe]

No such thing as PAL or NTSC huh? You try telling that to the DVD alliance. Try playing a PAL DVD on a NTSC player. You'll have either A) no video, B) no audio, C) glitchy B&W video, D) all of the previous. There's no such thing as pal or ntsc FOR BLU-RAY only. On DVD's it's very much existing.

Oh great... you woke up Ch3vr0n...

Thanks a LOT Mr. Video! :cool:

[MrVideo]

No such thing as PAL or NTSC huh? You try telling that to the DVD alliance. Try playing a PAL DVD on a NTSC player. You'll have either A) no video, B) no audio, C) glitchy B&W video, D) all of the previous. There's no such thing as pal or ntsc FOR BLU-RAY only. On DVD's it's very much existing.
The digital video is neither PAL, nor NTSC. It is either 480i59.94 or 576i50. It is the ANALOG OUTPUT of the player that is either NTSC or PAL. So, 480i DVDs are meant for NTSC output DVD players and 576i DVDs are meant for PAL output DVD players.

Take that same DVD and play it in your computer and I'll bet that it won't have any problem being displayed, no mater the resolution or frame rate. The only issue could possibly be the damn region coding.

Overseas you will find it really difficult to find a DVD player that will not play both 480i and 576i DVDs. It has been that way for ages, because people imported a lot of US releases and basically forced the selling of multi-standard DVD players. Many TVs/monitors were also multi-standard.

That said, I have an older DVD player that will handle all regions and both frame rates. Because it is sold in the U.S., it outputs the video as NTSC. Only because multi-standard TVs were not the norm here.

I now have a Blu-ray/DVD player that is all region (BD or DVD) and will play all resolutions.

[MrVideo]

I wish people would stop saying that. They both still exist. Things still fail when attempting to use the wrong standard in the other parts of the world. Constantly telling people they can ignore it is incorrect and not helpful.
I never say that anyone can ignore the frame rate on a DVD. You have to know what your playback equipment is capable of. In the old analog only days, especially here in the U.S., the playing of 576i DVDs was pretty difficult. The playing of 480i DVDs overseas was a lot more common (see previous posting). Since we in the U.S. had the wealth of DVDs available, the demand for 576i playback just wasn't called for. Because I prefer the original 576i50 DVD releases for Doctor Who, I bought a modified DVD player that was region free and would convert 576i50 to 480i59.94 so that I could watch them on my NTSC only TV.

Since DVD encryption was hacked ages ago, software became available that not only allowed for the copying of DVDs, it also allowed for the ignoring of the region codes. That allowed people to play 576i region 2,4 DVDs on their computers. No such thing as PAL/NTSC when playing DVDs on a computer system.
By the way, I just did a search and the term NTSC is referenced more than 40 times in the Blu-Ray standard.
I'd have to see how the terms PAL and NTSC are used. The Blu-ray standard is many years old and terms like PAL and NTSC can be mis-used easily. Look up the technical definitions of PAL and NTSC and you will find that they are analog only, not digital in any shape or form, especially since digital video was unheard of when the standards were created.

I will always try and point out that NTSC and PAL no longer exists in the mainstream. Yes, there are still those that only have DVD players and possibly only analog TVS. But, the main stream these days is digital, either HD or SD (for those damn subchannels). Ever since Jan 1, 2014, Blu-ray players could no longer be manufactured with analog outputs, HDMI only (there were execptions). No more NTSC, or PAL, analog outputs. No more NTSC, or PAL, period. The HDMI display device needed to be able to handle the frame rates of the user's discs. Hard to believe, but there seem to be display devices that do not handle 576i50. While looking for a computer display device (VGA/DVI/HDMI), it was hard find those that listed the complete specs. Most were generic listings.

I hope you all can see where I am coming from.

[MrVideo]

Oh great... you woke up Ch3vr0n...

Thanks a LOT Mr. Video! :cool:
It is a dirty job, but someone has to do it. :D

[jdobbs]

Just a general rule of thumb -- anytime it takes that many words to explain why you're right... you usually aren't.

[Lathe]

Just a general rule of thumb -- anytime it takes that many words to explain why you're right... you usually aren't.

Heh heh... you really are terrible JD...

I think we are just dealing with 'semantics' here guys... :sly:

[Sharc]

3D source with several 3D clips:
a. When selecting Full backup mode all 3D clips are reencoded/remuxed in MVC format
b. When selecting Full backup mode and selecting "Enable SBS/OU 3D Movie-Only output", all clips are encoded as 2D only, and none as 3D SBS.
Would it be possible to have all 3D clips encoded SBS/OU for case b. (=Full backup in SBS/OU format)?

[MrVideo]

Just a general rule of thumb -- anytime it takes that many words to explain why you're right... you usually aren't.
And sometimes a short explanation isn't good enough. :D

[MrVideo]

I think we are just dealing with 'semantics' here guys... :sly:
There have been people who have labeled 1080i/p 59.94/29.97 as NTSC and 1080i50 as PAL. Impossible. DGDecNV's status column on the left used to label HD video as NTSC as well. Several versions ago after I posted on his forum that NTSC/PAL HD doesn't exist, he removed the label. I do not remember if he still labels SD video as NTSC/PAL, since I haven't sent 480i, or 576i, thru the program in ages.

What started all of this off was a poster wanted to convert 576i to 480i Blu-ray. I should run a test with a Doctor Who DVD to see if just repackaging the MPEG-2 files onto a Blu-ray will play in one of my older Blu-ray players. I know it will play in the newest player as it will play the DVD itself just fine. If the Samsung player that I have does, it wouldn't mean that every other manufacturer's Blu-ray player will. It isn't mandatory that U.S. players play 25/50.

Now I'm curious to see if it will work, or not.

[Sharc]

A player with the Blu-Ray logo (certified) must play 720x576i25 and 720x576p25. I don't think that this is an option which is left to the mood or preference of the manufacturer.

[MrVideo]

A player with the Blu-Ray logo (certified) must play 720x576i25 and 720x576p25. I don't think that this is an option which is left to the mood or preference of the manufacturer.
Not according the Blu-ray Demystified book. It is the layman's book to the Blu-ray specification.

[jdobbs]

Not according the Blu-ray Demystified book. It is the layman's book to the Blu-ray specification.Are you sure about that? According to the spec it must play 720x576i@25. It should also support 720x576p@25 for secondary video (usually PiP usage) -- but I'll have to check and see if that is actually required in order to be certified.

Either way -- let's get back on topic. This is a bug thread. If we want to discuss it more, let's open another thread for it.

[Mikeyb123]

I think you mean pour. :D It should be pore.

[MrVideo]

Are you sure about that?
Table 6.4 General Characteristics of BDMV Presentation Data
Frame rate: 24/23.976 fps (film) [sic!]
29.97/59.94 fps (NTSC) [sic!]
25/50 fps (mandatory in PAL regions only)

I've marked two of the entries as sic because the one marked film is not necessarily true. Scripted drama TV shows are shot at 23.976 here in the U.S. The NTSC as a generic label is wrong because there is no such thing as HD NTSC.

[jdobbs]

Table 6.4 General Characteristics of BDMV Presentation Data
Frame rate: 24/23.976 fps (film) [sic!]
29.97/59.94 fps (NTSC) [sic!]
25/50 fps (mandatory in PAL regions only)

I've marked two of the entries as sic because the one marked film is not necessarily true. Scripted drama TV shows are shot at 23.976 here in the U.S. The NTSC as a generic label is wrong because there is no such thing as HD NTSC.I just went through the specification and especially references to 720x576 (and notes) and I couldn't find anything that supports the "mandatory in PAL regions only" statement. About the only time regions are mentioned (other than things like text and screen regions) is where they are documented in tables or for playback control. On the other hand the A/V specification volume is well of 1400 pages long -- so saying anything definitively always has to come with the caveat "from what I could find".

[MrVideo]

I'm currently extracting an episode of Primeval from its U.K. DVD release. So, I'll be putting together a single item menu BD disc as a test.

[gonca]

@MrVideo

Table 6.4 General Characteristics of BDMV Presentation Data
Frame rate: 24/23.976 fps (film) [sic!]
29.97/59.94 fps (NTSC) [sic!]
25/50 fps (mandatory in PAL regions only)

I've marked two of the entries as sic because the one marked film is not necessarily true. Scripted drama TV shows are shot at 23.976 here in the U.S. The NTSC as a generic label is wrong because there is no such thing as HD NTSC.

You of all people use reference material that refer to NTSC and PAL
OH...the irony!!!

[Sharc]

@jdobbs
Any thoughts on this (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1790015&postcount=25367)?
Is there a good reason why SBS/OU is not available with full backups?

[MrVideo]

You of all people use reference material that refer to NTSC and PAL
OH...the irony!!!
You need to read the book. NTSC/PAL is used correctly in many places in referring to the terms with television standard. It is unfortunate how the author used the terms in that particular table.

[jdobbs]

@jdobbs
Any thoughts on this (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1790015&postcount=25367)?
Is there a good reason why SBS/OU is not available with full backups?Have you tried the hidden option TYPE_OF_3D, or am I missing something?TYPE_OF_3D=n n = 0-3 - 0=Side-by-side (SBS, default), 1=Over/Under (O/U), 2=RC Anaglyph, 3=GM Anaglyph

[MrVideo]

OK, my test of creating a BD with content from a 576i50 DVD is complete. First off, the new feature to allow menu creation with a single menu item works. Thanks for that.

The video played just fine in my pre-Cinavia infested Blu-ray player. But, that doesn't mean that it will in all players. My guess is that it will. It seems rather dumb that a Blu-ray player has to play 1080i50 and not be able to play 576i50 MPEG-2 videos.

So, there is no need to convert 576i50 to 480i59.94.

You just need to copy the VOB files on the DVD into one big TS file (VOB files are TS files). In the case of the DVD in my test, there are three episodes on the disc, so there are three separate VOB groups, one for each episode. You can then import the TS files from all the DVD VOBs that you copied to TS files. By copy I actually mean concatenate. When you import the TS files in BDRB, you will first edit the menu. Then you will let it import the files. When the importing and menu creation is completed, do not hit the backup button. At this point, burn the BDMV and CERTIFICATE directories onto a BD. I do suggest burning a test BD on BD-RE media first.

There is one big issue with the above method and that is that there are no chapter marks. Because I have the VideoReDo program, I can extract stuff from DVDs and keep the chapter marks. By having VRD output a MKV file, the chapter marks are intact and BD-RB will use those chapter marks. I do not know of any other way to keep chapter marks. Other forum members might have ways of doing it.

[Sharc]

Have you tried the hidden option TYPE_OF_3D, or am I missing something?TYPE_OF_3D=n n = 0-3 - 0=Side-by-side (SBS, default), 1=Over/Under (O/U), 2=RC Anaglyph, 3=GM Anaglyph
No..., I didn't include this in my .ini. I assumed it isn't required because it defaults to 0 (SBS) which is what I wanted....
I'll try again after the current encode has completed.

[jdobbs]

No..., I didn't include this in my .ini. I assumed it isn't required because it defaults to 0 (SBS) which is what I wanted....
I'll try again after the current encode has completed.Sorry, I misunderstood what you were asking.

[Sharc]

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were asking.
Eventually I found the reason for the failing full backup SBS encode:
The original disc (ripped as 3D .iso) was small enough to fit on a BD25 without re-encoding (from a file size point of view).
In addition to enabling SBS in the settings and putting TYPE_OF_3D=0 in the .ini, I have to put FORCE_ENCODE=1 in the .ini. Otherwise the 3D clips are just getting remuxed as 2D (base stream only).
I think it would probably make sense to trigger the forced encoding automatically in this case, because SBS encoding of 3D MVC sources will always require re-encoding, independent of any size constraints. Any thoughts?

[jdobbs]

Eventually I found the reason for the failing full backup SBS encode:
The original disc (ripped as 3D .iso) was small enough to fit on a BD25 without re-encoding (from a file size point of view).
In addition to enabling SBS in the settings and putting TYPE_OF_3D=0 in the .ini, I have to put FORCE_ENCODE=1 in the .ini. Otherwise the 3D clips are just getting remuxed as 2D (base stream only).
I think it would probably make sense to trigger the forced encoding automatically in this case, because SBS encoding of 3D MVC sources will always require re-encoding, independent of any size constraints. Any thoughts?That's a bug. Even if it will fit, it should force a reencode of a 3D source when SBS/OU is selected. I'll make sure I fix it for the next release.

[Edit] It has been fixed for the next release.

[LowDead]

- Improved BD-5/9 full-backups. Sources that
do not use BD-J can be reencoded using the
full-backup mode, and should play on any
AVCHD compatible device. This includes all
imported and quick-play authored discs. A
small asterisk will display in the upper
left corner of the streams list next to
the disc title for any source/mode that
meets the criteria for an AVCHD compatible
full backup to BD-5/9.

Have now tested this with success on PS3 :thanks: . Sadly it borked the playback on my older Sony BDP-S560, which I find strange as it should handle proper AVCHD format.

[jdobbs]

Have now tested this with success on PS3 :thanks: . Sadly it borked the playback on my older Sony BDP-S560, which I find strange as it should handle proper AVCHD format.So by "borked" you're saying it won't play, I assume. I tried it on two different Sony players and it worked. I think I may have an older one in storage, I'll see if I can dig it out.

[LowDead]

Yes, I got message "invalid disc" when trying on the old Sony.

[jdobbs]

Yes, I got message "invalid disc" when trying on the old Sony.Wow. That's truly a surprise. It should be 100% AVCHD now.

Will your Sony play discs re-authored by multiAVCHD?

[LowDead]

Yes, it plays everything done with other software, it even played BD5 & BD9 done with BD-RB up until the latest version, when instead it worked on the PS3.

//LD

[Sharc]

Yes, it plays everything done with other software, it even played BD5 & BD9 done with BD-RB up until the latest version, when instead it worked on the PS3.

//LD
Does the "invalid disc" show up with new backups or with imported/quick re-authored material from earlier backups? Is the video/audio getting (re-)encoded, or is it just copied as is to the new disc?

[Sharc]

That's a bug. Even if it will fit, it should force a reencode of a 3D source when SBS/OU is selected. I'll make sure I fix it for the next release.

[Edit] It has been fixed for the next release.

Thanks.

Another issue for Full 3D backup (and similar for Movie + Menu backup):
- The disc plays correctly for FRIM/MVC backups.
- The disc loads but the Menu fails to play for (forced) Half-SBS backups (player stops, black screen).

For Half-SBS, all but one of the menu and intro clips are left untouched (monoscopic) or remuxed (in-mux) as MVC, but one is getting Half-SBS encoded. Does this mixture of MVC/in-mux and Half-SBS possibly fool the player? Or is this perhaps another bug?

Edit:
If it helps I could send you the playlists and Clipinf of the 2 versions (FRIM/MVC and Half-SBS).
Disc is for example Legend of Tarzan.

[LowDead]

Does the "invalid disc" show up with new backups or with imported/quick re-authored material from earlier backups? Is the video/audio getting (re-)encoded, or is it just copied as is to the new disc?

I haven't tested yet imported or quick reauthored, only full. The video/audio is encoding as it should.

//LD

[Jake802]

What does it mean when it says no video header found? Sorry, I made my own bluray. I was trying to shrink it down to fit on a single layer disc. I get an error popping up saying no video header found and then No Data Check Your PIDS. It then goes to completing remainder of indexing and it hangs. I was thinking it was my homemade disc, but I just tried starting the program and it doesnt even want to start, its hanging at the splash screen. I am now getting an error box that I am having trouble posting but it says Error Condition and BD Rebuilder experienced an error 2501 [12:15:22] ScanDirectory() 00009 2501

[jdobbs]

What does it mean when it says no video header found? Sorry, I made my own bluray. I was trying to shrink it down to fit on a single layer disc. I get an error popping up saying no video header found and then No Data Check Your PIDS. It then goes to completing remainder of indexing and it hangs. I was thinking it was my homemade disc, but I just tried starting the program and it doesnt even want to start, its hanging at the splash screen. I am now getting an error box that I am having trouble posting but it says Error Condition and BD Rebuilder experienced an error 2501 [12:15:22] ScanDirectory() 00009 2501My guess is that the M2TS stream is illegally formatted.

[Jake802]

Thanks JDobbs!

[jdobbs]

Thanks JDobbs!I believe that error is coming from DGIndexNV -- you may want to take a look at the standard used for M2TS files (ISO/IEC 13818-1) for more details. If you search for it, it should be available for download.

[Sharc]

@jdobbs
My Blu-ray source is 1080i, 25fps.
I don't apply a deinterlacer because the video is progressive. Alternate output to mkv container 1280x720 produces 1280x720p25 which is not blu-ray compliant. I think it should be 50fps using frame duplication, i.e. changefps() rather than assumefps() in the script for this type of source, no?
Is this a bug, or a "don't care" for .mkv ouput?

P.S.
It does it right for Blu-Ray structure output, so the question is only for alternate outputs.

[MrVideo]

Is this a bug, or a "don't care" for .mkv ouput?
IMHO it is a don't care. The last thing you need is a file twice the size it needs to be. 720p25 MKV file are playable in any Blu-ray player that plays MKV files.

Frankly, I'd bet that you would be hard pressed to find a relatively new Blu-ray player that wouldn't play 720p25 videos even when authored as a Blu-ray disc.

[jdobbs]

BD-RB doesn't put the same restrictions on ALTERNATE output files (e.g. MKV) that it would on a BD. For example, if you have auto GOP set, it can have GOPs that are 250 frames, which would be illegal for BD. At one point I was trying to create them to be compatible, but I gave up on that idea for the sake of encoding efficiency.

[Sharc]

IMHO it is a don't care. The last thing you need is a file twice the size it needs to be. ...
File size is not a problem at all. The file will become only slightly bigger, because x264 encodes the duplicated frames very very efficiently (another method I didn't mention would be to apply --pulldown). But let's hope that you are right and very most Blu-ray players will actually play 720p25.