BD Rebuilder Beta - Bug Reports Only

[Dark Shikari]

The problem seems to be that BDRB is not deinterlacing to 60fps and then performing interlaced encoding as it should.You know that 60fps 1080p won't play on said Oppo player to begin with, right? :rolleyes:

[Race Guy]

You know that 60fps 1080p won't play on said Oppo player to begin with, right? :rolleyes:

The Oppo will play EVERYTHING. That's their "shtick". It's a "universal" player. Feel free to read the "spec sheet": http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83/

The "original" video in question is MPEG-4 AVC 1920x1080i 29.97fps. When I hit the Oppo "on screen info" it says "AVC BDMV 29.97 Hz 16:9". That's 1080 "i" NOT "p". When I hit the "on screen info" on my Samsung screen, it says "1920x1080@60Hz" because the Oppo is outputting 1080p which is the native rez of my screen.

The Oppo plays the original PERFECTLY!

The same, "rebuilt" video shows the EXACT same specs as above, but it's UNWATCHABLE 'cause it's stuttering so bad! This particular vid (Abbey Road) just happens to be the "poster child" for seeing the "phenomenon", 'cause of the way it's shot. As I go thru other 1080i discs I've rebuilt, the jerkiness is in ALL of them. The only diff is, most of the other "productions" don't have the excessive panning the Abbey does.

On every 1080p/24 "rebuild" I've done, the Oppo plays them PERFECTLY! On a 24p flick, my TV screen info will say "1920x1080@24Hz" 'cause the Oppo has automatically adjusted it's output.

I have yet to see a "1080p/60" disc. Do you know of one, Dark Shikari? I'll go buy it & report back to you on how the Oppo plays it! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Race Guy]

You know that 60fps 1080p won't play on said Oppo player to begin with, right? :rolleyes:

Hey Mr. Dark Shikari........, I JUST noticed something!

Your "handle" says "x264 Developer".

Instead of worrying about what you think my player does or doesn't play......., why don't you tell jdobbs what "switches he needs to throw" to get a CLEAN 1080i rebuild?

It would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!! :) :) :)

See ya!

[Dark Shikari]

The Oppo will play EVERYTHING. That's their "shtick". It's a "universal" player.I'm good friends with the guy who runs the company that builds the Oppo player, and I'm pretty sure (not 100% though) that H.264 Level 4.2 is out of spec ;)

1080p60 is not 1080p24 or 1080p30.

[jdobbs]

I'm good friends with the guy who runs the company that builds the Oppo player, and I'm pretty sure (not 100% though) that H.264 Level 4.2 is out of spec ;)

1080p60 is not 1080p24 or 1080p30. It's just hard to get any respect around here isn't it... :) Forget the fact that you're one of the primary developers of the best X264 encoder on the planet --- oh yeah, and that you're doing it for free...

[jdobbs]

You are correct. Although it's not the fault of x264 but the switches that are being used for encoding.

The problem seems to be that BDRB is not deinterlacing to 60fps and then performing interlaced encoding as it should.

It's missing out the deinterlacing part so we just get some crappy zig zag video.

This is basic stuff! :eek: If its so basic, maybe you can tell me how to fix it?

I remember when I was asked to add the option to keep interlacing -- and I hesitated for exactly this reason... and it's also the reason it isn't the default and it is a hidden option.

I'd especially like to hear how deinterlacing somehow identifies whether the source is TFF or BFF so it can be reconstructed properly (which is the source of the problem we're discussing) -- especially since 90% of the sources are stored as frames rather than fields in the source even when interlaced.

I know I can scan the source, look at flags and determine field order (assuming it isn't a hybrid source and there isn't any pulldown)... but it's anything but basic. Oh... I forgot to mention... there isn't any guarantee that the field order won't change in the next scene -- so I'd have to scan THE ENTIRE SOURCE. At least that was my experience on the MPEG-2 side (and a major cause of my DVD Rebuilder headaches) where I had to scan and record the flags for every single frame so I could restructure it after encoding.

I just love the concept of adding another complete scan of 40 Gigabytes and recording of flags of the source followed by another complete scan/flag setting of the output to what is already too-long a process.

Everybody's a critic.

[Race Guy]

It's just hard to get any respect around here isn't it... :) Forget the fact that you're one of the primary developers of the best X264 encoder on the planet --- oh yeah, and that you're doing it for free...

It's got NOTHING to do with respect, jdobbs! He made a "wise ass" crack about my player that's prolly "state of the ART", instead of contributing a possible solution.

YOUR efforts are GREATLY appreciated!

I'm just pointing out a MAJOR bug in BD-RB.

This bug is SO BAD, if it's not fixed, you'll have to rename your product to "1080p/24-Rebuilder" 'cause there's NO WAY you could say it'll work on ALL Blu Rays.

Hopefully "Mr Dark" can help you out with 1080i fix! :) :) :)

Have a nice day!

[Dark Shikari]

It's got NOTHING to do with respect, jdobbs! He made a "wise ass" crack about my player that's prolly "state of the ART", instead of contributing a possible solution.Erm, telling you that a 1080p60 video won't play on a chip designed for Level 4.1 playback is "a wise ass crack"? :confused:

[Race Guy]

Erm, telling you that a 1080p60 video won't play on a chip designed for Level 4.1 playback is "a wise ass crack"? :confused:

WHERE in my "bug report" does the ability to play or not play "1080p/60" have any relevance?

The issue I'm reporting is the POOR quality of "MPEG-4 AVC 1920x1080i 29.97fps" rebuilds. Nothing more. I don't know how to make it any clearer!

[drmih]

This so called MAJOR bug effects how many discs?? All of us happy people who have done loads of discs which play perfectly have a different opinion to you of this great software. As your player spec pages says "* Compatibility with user-encoded contents or user-created discs is on a best-effort basis with no guarantee due to the variation of media, software and techniques used." - it's a pity the same consideration isn't extended to jdobbs and Dark Shikari!

[Dark Shikari]

WHERE in my "bug report" does the ability to play or not play "1080p/60" have any relevance?The problem seems to be that BDRB is not deinterlacing to 60fps:rolleyes:

[jdobbs]

It's got NOTHING to do with respect, jdobbs! He made a "wise ass" crack about my player that's prolly "state of the ART", instead of contributing a possible solution.

YOUR efforts are GREATLY appreciated!

I'm just pointing out a MAJOR bug in BD-RB.

This bug is SO BAD, if it's not fixed, you'll have to rename your product to "1080p/24-Rebuilder" 'cause there's NO WAY you could say it'll work on ALL Blu Rays.

Hopefully "Mr Dark" can help you out with 1080i fix! :) :) :)

Have a nice day! If we're going to talk about "wise ass" -- I'd ask that you please re-read this post and look at it from my perspective. When did terms like "beta" and freeware lose their meaning? Things get fixed -- but they get fixed when they are discovered and reported -- I've had all of a couple of days to look at this one (while, by the way, I'm busting my ass with a real job).

Saying "rename your product to 1080p/24-Rebuilder" isn't "wise-ass"? (Smiley faces don't always cover an insult)

Honestly, I don't know why I do this. Whip me! Beat me! Make me write bad checks! (because I'm obviously a glutton for punishment)

[drmih]

@jdobbs

Did you ever discover what was the issue with Universal discs and bd-9 on the Sony? We know that the same image plays fine on a bd-25 so it's a Sony firmware issue but it was more a case of curiosity. I have tried various discs (which tend to have PiP) by including and excluding the seconday video, and with secondary audio which can and can't be processed. However, all fail to play the main audio on bd-9. Rather than PiP, is it the menu system or U-Control which could be confusing the Sony's?

[jdobbs]

@jdobbs

Did you ever discover what was the issue with Universal discs and bd-9 on the Sony? We know that the same image plays fine on a bd-25 so it's a Sony firmware issue but it was more a case of curiosity. I have tried various discs (which tend to have PiP) by including and excluding the seconday video, and with secondary audio which can and can't be processed. However, all fail to play the main audio on bd-9. Rather than PiP, is it the menu system or U-Control which could be confusing the Sony's?

Since the exact same image works when written to BD-25 -- it has to be related to how the Sony works with the BD-9, and not the structure of the BD-9 itself. One option would be for me to remove the secondary video and also remove any references to it in the MPLS... but that still wouldn't be a successful backup since the PiP would be missing.

But more clearly -- "No" I don't know why it is doing it. I wish I did. It's on the list of "do some investigation" items I'm keeping (its a fairly extensive list).

[Race Guy]

:rolleyes:

Mr Dark......, you misquoted me with:

"Originally Posted by Race Guy
The problem seems to be that BDRB is not deinterlacing to 60fps"

That's the "Flea's" line, NOT mine.

Personally, it's "above my pay grade" to suggest a cause/solution!

I'm just a "reporter" writing down what I see.

[Race Guy]

If we're going to talk about "wise ass" -- I'd ask that you please re-read this post and look at it from my perspective. When did terms like "beta" and freeware lose their meaning? Things get fixed -- but they get fixed when they are discovered and reported -- I've had all of a couple of days to look at this one (while, by the way, I'm busting my ass with a real job).

Saying "rename your product to 1080p/24-Rebuilder" isn't "wise-ass"? (Smiley faces don't always cover an insult)

Honestly, I don't know why I do this. Whip me! Beat me! Make me write bad checks! (because I'm obviously a glutton for punishment)

Yes......, I admit........, it was kinda "wise ass"!

Isn't the goal to get this released so you can get SHOWERED with CURRENCY of ALL TYPES??? I'm just trying to get a "real" bug kicked up to the top of the list to help you REACH that goal!

Sounds like I made a LITTLE progress, ain't it?

Keep up the good work!

[Race Guy]

This so called MAJOR bug effects how many discs?? All of us happy people who have done loads of discs which play perfectly have a different opinion to you of this great software. As your player spec pages says "* Compatibility with user-encoded contents or user-created discs is on a best-effort basis with no guarantee due to the variation of media, software and techniques used." - it's a pity the same consideration isn't extended to jdobbs and Dark Shikari!

This "bug" affects virtually ALL "live concert" discs.

IMO, that's THE big attraction of Blu......., HD Music. Flix are OK, but REALLY, how many times are you gonna watch the same flick? A rockin' good concert can be watched OVER & OVER & OVER AGAIN!

It also probably affects ANY disc shot live. Most film (1080p/24 stuff) is "scanned", correct?

See ya!

[drmih]

So probably about 1% or 2%. I've only done AC-DC Live at Donnington and that was fine to bd-9.

[chudm]

was on vacation, ill keep an eye on the newer betas :D thx jdobbs!

[Race Guy]

So probably about 1% or 2%. I've only done AC-DC Live at Donnington and that was fine to bd-9.

Is that 1 or 2% an "educated guess" or just a "plain ol' guess"?

Don't forget TV series Blu's that's all 1080i stuff too. LOTS of people buy that stuff. Does that bump us up to 3%?

That AC/DC was shot in 1992, pre HD cameras, so it may be film, meaning 1080p/24. I'll find out for sure.

[nurbs]

Don't forget TV series Blu's that's all 1080i stuff too.
I have a couple of TV series on blu-ray and they are all 1080p/24

Edit:
I did a little research on http://www.blu-raystats.com. The list 1791 blu-ray releases. 150 of those (~8%) are 1080i. 8 of those are TV series. The 1080i titles are mostly concerts and other live events and documentaries. There are also some TV series, movies, "screen savers" (fireplace,...) and porn (they have switched from MPEG2 to AVC recently). Only 15% are releases from major studios. I have no idea how accurate or complete the list is.

[jdobbs]

I have a couple of TV series on blu-ray and they are all 1080p/24

Edit:
I did a little research on http://www.blu-raystats.com. The list 1791 blu-ray releases. 150 of those (~8%) are 1080i. 8 of those are TV series. The 1080i titles are mostly concerts and other live events and documentaries. There are also some TV series, movies, "screen savers" (fireplace,...) and porn (they have switched from MPEG2 to AVC recently). Only 15% are releases from major studios. I have no idea how accurate or complete the list is. Ok... now take those 1080i numbers and reduce again based on the number that are encoded BFF (which will probably be tiny) and that is the number that would have an issue. I think 2% was a very conservative estimate.

In most cases it is best to just let BD-RB deinterlace them (and here I'm referring to real deinterlacing, not field separation which was called "deinterlacing" in a previous post) and you will have a very high quality 1080p encode. We're talking about 1080 here -- this isn't anything like people's experience with 480i. The blending is virtually impossible to detect.

Sometimes I'm just amazed at the insignificant things we choose to argue about here (I'm reminded of the discussions on level 4.1 and slicing) while we completely ignore the big picture. I'm seriously considering pulling the hidden interlacing option out so I don't have to deal with it any more. It's like saying "give me a pen so I can poke myself in the eye" -- and then complaining because you can't see as well anymore. I should have just said no when first asked to implement it.

[Dark Shikari]

Why not just leave the BDs as they are and not deinterlace them?

[jdobbs]

Right now if you set the option to encode as interlaced so it stays the same as the original, sometimes the output has the field order reversed. That was the root of the earlier bug report. I've never actually experienced it myself, but then I don't do a lot of concerts (where it has been reported to be seen).

[laneyhardcore]

First off please excuse my english :) Great job on the software ive noticed couple of bugs.

1) I did a 1080p BD9 full movie rip and it worked fine menus etc. Only problem was film was a bit long and wasn't giving me adequate quality, so I did a 720p one and it seemingly loads up fine with Powerdvd the menu background appears but none of the clickable text options do. In an attempt to fix this I used my original 1080p rip... I left the menu at 1080p and for all the other files I replaced with the 720p m2ts files, I loaded this up in Powerdvd and now the menus worked as did the film and extras but for some reason the subtitles refuse to work I know very little about BD disk structure but ive been trying to figure it out to no avail... any suggestions they work fine on the 1080p rip and the original 720p (when going directly to the movie title) before I chopped up the streams folder. Any chance of possibly adding a "leave menu at 1080p" button in a future release?

2) Another film I did as 1080p gets to the menu screen but none of the options are there Its a simple menu on original BD25 It has pictures etc for the chapter points but they do not show up i have to manually select the title (nothing to really moan about I know) but a bug none the the less is this something to Do with Java or PIP I keep hearing about?

I would give you names of these discs but they are obscure Japanese titles. Anyway thanks again... oh and to the man with the Oppo does it play full movie BD9/5 I have my eye on that player the DVD upscaling is great! :thanks:

[writersblock29]

@Jdobbs

V. 0.29.03 hasn't been throwing the "GUI Issue, no hWnd returned" message in the last two disks I've run through it. I'm not sure what changes you made, but at least here it appears to have worked.

[jdobbs]

@Jdobbs

V. 0.29.03 hasn't been throwing the "GUI Issue, no hWnd returned" message in the last two disks I've run through it. I'm not sure what changes you made, but at least here it appears to have worked. I'm just waiting longer before giving up on getting the info from the caption. Apparently some systems have a significant delay before the encode actually starts... I changed it from 10 seconds to 60 seconds. In the next version I've made it even better by looking for the window class instead of the caption when determining which window of the associated process id to use.

[laneyhardcore]

First off please excuse my english :) Great job on the software ive noticed couple of bugs.

1) I did a 1080p BD9 full movie rip and it worked fine menus etc. Only problem was film was a bit long and wasn't giving me adequate quality, so I did a 720p one and it seemingly loads up fine with Powerdvd the menu background appears but none of the clickable text options do. In an attempt to fix this I used my original 1080p rip... I left the menu at 1080p and for all the other files I replaced with the 720p m2ts files, I loaded this up in Powerdvd and now the menus worked as did the film and extras but for some reason the subtitles refuse to work I know very little about BD disk structure but ive been trying to figure it out to no avail... any suggestions they work fine on the 1080p rip and the original 720p (when going directly to the movie title) before I chopped up the streams folder. Any chance of possibly adding a "leave menu at 1080p" button in a future release?



Woo i managed to get the subs working I copied the relevant clpi and mlps files from the 720p rip I don't know if its necessary to copy both but but it worked so im happy :devil:

[GaPony]

Honestly, I don't know why I do this. Whip me! Beat me! Make me write bad checks! (because I'm obviously a glutton for punishment)

I honestly don't know why you bother, either... but I'm very glad that you do. Some people don't get it... if there's a particular movie/disc that doesn't work right, it can easily be put aside until the needed fix or feature comes along. Unfortunately, some people don't know the difference between beta tesing and wine tasting and your patience is, frankly amazing. I apologize for their lack of understanding of exactly what's going on with your program.

Apparently, some people are in a hurry to get their stuff copied, so they can avoid those killer late fees at Blockbuster. :eek:

Perhaps, some of the self procalimed experts around here will be releasing their own software and we can all take advantage of the "perfect" program.... and you can not only take a break, but sling a few arrows of your own. :)

@ Whomever... For the record, there is no such thing as a "State of the Art" Blu-Ray player. The closest thing to following any sort of standard is the Sony line, and everyone else is just playing catchup. A bunch of features referencing upconverting DVDs to 1080p aren't state of the art or earth shattering breakthroughs and have little to do with a players functionality with Blu-Ray (especially BD9/BD5) playback.

[vsj023]

i get thiserror when i start with this new version, i never had any problems before

[22:14:02] BD Rebuilder v0.29.03 (beta)
- Source: SUNSHINE_US
- Input BD size: 36.79 GB
- Approximate total content: [03:45:18.805]
- Target BD size: 22.46 GB
[22:14:02] PHASE ONE, Encoding
- [22:14:02] Extracting A/V streams [VID_00001]
- Error in attempt to extract audio/subs.
- Reading buffer overflow. Possible container streams are not syncronized. Please, verify stream fps. File name: E:\VIDEOS\BLU-RAY\SUNSHINE_US\BDMV\STREAM\00001.m2ts
- Error in attempt to extract audio/subs.
- Reading buffer overflow. Possible container streams are not syncronized. Please, verify stream fps. File name: E:\VIDEOS\BLU-RAY\SUNSHINE_US\BDMV\STREAM\00001.m2ts
[22:14:06] - Failed to retrieve audio, aborted

and here is my settings:
[Options]
RESIZE=0
MODE=0
PRIORITY_CLASS=0
TARGET_SIZE=23000
ENCODE_QUALITY=5
QUICK_EXTRAS=0
AUDIO_TO_KEEP=eng;spa;
SUBS_TO_KEEP=eng;spa;
COLOR_BOOST=0
RESIZE_1080=0
DTS_REENCODE=0
AC3_REENCODE=0
AC3_640=1
KEEP_HD_AUDIO=1
AVCHD=0
REMOVE_WORKFILES=0
AUDIO_TRACK_LIMIT=1
SUBTITLE_TRACK_LIMIT=1
CUSTOM_TARGET_SIZE=23450
[Paths]
SOURCE_PATH=E:\VIDEOS\BLU-RAY\SUNSHINE_US\
WORKING_PATH=C:\WORKING\

any ideas why this is happening. Thanks in advanced.

[Furiousflea]

Right now if you set the option to encode as interlaced so it stays the same as the original, sometimes the output has the field order reversed. That was the root of the earlier bug report. I've never actually experienced it myself, but then I don't do a lot of concerts (where it has been reported to be seen).

That's the problem, it happens on movies too. I'm not talking about those 1080i concerts. I'm talking about extras on discs like "The Matrix". I reported this a couple of months ago. For all intents and purposes the "keep interlacing" option is completely broken.

I'm sure on the version you first introduced it, it worked properly on "The Matrix". Then from then on I always used that switch (why not?). When I actually went back to check the extras on my BDP-S550 I found all the extras on my discs looked like they weren't being deinterlaced into 60fps video but just had zig-zagging everywhere as if the flag hadn't been set for the player to deinterlace them.

This is not the player causing the problem as I have made backups of my single layer discs and they do not have the problem.

[Aratar]

Right now if you set the option to encode as interlaced so it stays the same as the original, sometimes the output has the field order reversed.

A compromise could be adding BFF/TFF option to keep interlacing command.

[laserfan]

A compromise could be adding BFF/TFF option to keep interlacing command.Sure, but I think jdobbs' issue is that there isn't any programmatic way to identify BFF vs. TFF, to set this automagically.

Whenever I've seen a question here on doom9 about de-interlacing, the answer always seems to be "you have to use your eyes".

[jdobbs]

A compromise could be adding BFF/TFF option to keep interlacing command.

BFF and TFF aren't options on the standard build of X264, they're only available through patching. I want to stick with the standard build.

[PurpleMan]

jdobbs:

I noticed that if I open 00000.m2ts (main movie) on the original batman begins disc using tsmuxergui all the audio tracks are flagged with timeshift=125ms. On the backup I made using BD-RB the 00000.m2ts does not have that flag. Is that on purpose?

I mean, is BD-RB compensating for the timeshift?

[jdobbs]

That's the problem, it happens on movies too. I'm not talking about those 1080i concerts. I'm talking about extras on discs like "The Matrix". I reported this a couple of months ago. For all intents and purposes the "keep interlacing" option is completely broken.

I'm sure on the version you first introduced it, it worked properly on "The Matrix". Then from then on I always used that switch (why not?). When I actually went back to check the extras on my BDP-S550 I found all the extras on my discs looked like they weren't being deinterlaced into 60fields per second (not fps, which is frames per second) video but just had zig-zagging everywhere as if the flag hadn't been set for the player to deinterlace them.

This is not the player causing the problem as I have made backups of my single layer discs and they do not have the problem. I'll go back and check to see if something new has broken the function. But from what I'm hearing in the other posts, this isn't the issue we're discussing. The other reports say they see "jittering" or "vibrations" that is normally indicative of an incorrect field order. What you're reporting is jagged edges, correct?

Your statement "deinterlaced into 60fps video" is confusing... because that doesn't typically happen. It is still 29.97fps video, but it has two fields of odd and even lines that are drawn in an alternating manner, first one and then the other separated by time. The original reason for interlacing was because the persistence of phosper on the face of a cathode ray tube couldn't hold it's brightness very well and would show a perceptable "flash" at 30fps. Interlacing at 60 fields per second (fps implies frames rather than fields) made it go away (to the human eye). I think there are TVs (I don't pay a lot of attention to this) that support 1080p60 -- but since there is no current 1080p60 input (that I know of) its just simulated and sales hype anyway.

The reason field order is important is because in field-based encodings the recording time of the two fields is actually 1/60th of a second apart, even though they appear to make up a single picture on the screen.

If you somehow invert the display order and there is movement (for example) from left to right on the screen, it appears to go back-and-forth -- because the first displayed field is being displayed 1/60th of a second too early, and the second displayed field is being displayed 1/60th of a second too late. It can also look like "blurring" on slow movements.

Deinterlacing is when you actually convert the field based video into a single picture removing the differences, there are lots of ways to do it but typically it averages the two fields so they appear to be one picture. That's what BD-RB does by default when the KEEP_INTERLACING flag isn't set. It also eliminates the possibility of field order errors.

What I think you are describing is a situation in which the fields have not been averaged (deinterlaced) -- but are somehow flagged as progressive (which is bad, because Blu-Ray only allows 1080p on 24fps video). In that case both fields are displayed simultaneously as if the source is frame-based when it is not. Since there is no 1/60th second alternating display time difference between the two fields, you can see the delta in movement as jagged edges.

Of course everything I'm talking about here is related to NTSC/ATSC and would have to be adjusted for other standards.

The reason this is becoming more-and-more a dead argument is because LCD TVs that are capable of 1080p typically deinterlace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080i) the 1080i signal before displaying it anyway (just like BD-RB does by default) -- and cathode ray tubes (picture tubes) are really becoming very rare while 1080p capability is becoming the norm. So the question is "What do you accomplish by keeping the original interlacing?" -- and the answer is "In most cases, nothing." On the plus side, when you do the deinterlacing during the encoding, you have more time and can (probably) do it better.

There was a lot of work done recently that could have affected the KEEP_INTERLACING setting, so I'll go back and see if I've screwed something up. I'll also go back and make sure I'm not somehow causing sources that are 1080i to be flagged as 1080p30.

[edit] Wow. I'm really verbose today. That must have been an especially good cup of coffee.

[Furiousflea]

Thanks for the lengthy explanation of the terms and information :) I wasn't really looking back to see if my issue was the same as other peoples. I am aware of there being 2 issues here (mine and the other peoples).

I have personally experienced that "jitter" after running a concert dvd through BDRB when keeping video interlaced to retain that smooth motion of video = you then get the crazy jittering.

However my issue isn't related to that, I am solely talking about extras such as "making of" documentaries that are typically 480\60i. That is to say as I'm sure you are aware that 60 frames per second are generated from the interlaced stream.

This is the effect of creating a live action smooth movement as you would see on modern soap operas\news\sport programs.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying you are incorrect about anything, you obviously have a far greater understanding of the workings of this stuff than me. But I can categorically say that the only way to retain that "live action look" is to keep the source interlaced as it is on the original. When you de-interlace you are halving the frame rate to 29.97fps which can cause some juddering on this "making of" type films. Having the knock on effect of in say "The Matrix" making of documentary making the behind the scense material looking like film material.

Just to give one final example, if you download say an episode of your favourite soap that is shot on video from a torrent site (just for arguments sake) these groups always release their video in progressive format so when you watch it the video has a "film" look to it.

You know like the difference between "live action\film"...

I would like to retain that live action look if at all possible. Sorry for my ramblings and likely repeating myself :)

[Furiousflea]

jdobbs:

I noticed that if I open 00000.m2ts (main movie) on the original batman begins disc using tsmuxergui all the audio tracks are flagged with timeshift=125ms. On the backup I made using BD-RB the 00000.m2ts does not have that flag. Is that on purpose?

I mean, is BD-RB compensating for the timeshift?

BDRB produces an out of synch backup for anyone who backs up Batman Begins, you could be on to something there.

[jdobbs]

Thanks for the lengthy explanation of the terms and information :) I wasn't really looking back to see if my issue was the same as other peoples. I am aware of there being 2 issues here (mine and the other peoples).

I have personally experienced that "jitter" after running a concert dvd through BDRB when keeping video interlaced to retain that smooth motion of video = you then get the crazy jittering.

However my issue isn't related to that, I am solely talking about extras such as "making of" documentaries that are typically 480\60i. That is to say as I'm sure you are aware that 60 frames per second are generated from the interlaced stream.

This is the effect of creating a live action smooth movement as you would see on modern soap operas\news\sport programs.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying you are incorrect about anything, you obviously have a far greater understanding of the workings of this stuff than me. But I can categorically say that the only way to retain that "live action look" is to keep the source interlaced as it is on the original. When you de-interlace you are halving the frame rate to 29.97fps which can cause some juddering on this "making of" type films. Having the knock on effect of in say "The Matrix" making of documentary making the behind the scense material looking like film material.

Just to give one final example, if you download say an episode of your favourite soap that is shot on video from a torrent site (just for arguments sake) these groups always release their video in progressive format so when you watch it the video has a "film" look to it.

You know like the difference between "live action\film"...

I would like to retain that live action look if at all possible. Sorry for my ramblings and likely repeating myself :)I just did some 1080i encoding with KEEP_INTERLACING=1, and it seems to work correctly. It encodes it with the "--interlaced" flag and it is correctly flagged as 1080i in the output. It also plays back correctly on my PC, I'll burn it to disc and see how it looks on my player. I'll then run it with the default and see how it looks. After that I'll do some testing with 480i.

480/60i is not 60 frames per second, it is 59.94 fields per second (29.97 fps). Whether it is converted to 60fps by your television, I can't say... but it is stored on the Blu-ray disc as 29.97fps. If you review the settings at this site (http://www.emedialive.com/articles/readarticle.aspx?articleid=11397) it'll show you the legal types (resolution, aspect, field and frame rates) for Blu-ray video.

When you de-interlace you are halving the frame rate to 29.97fps which can cause some juddering on this "making of" type films. You're not halving the frame rate, it is 29.97fps either way -- but you are modifying the fields so they can be displayed concurrently without the jagged edges -- so it should have the opposite effect. It also isn't "halving" the field rate because the two lines (odd/even from each field) aren't identical -- but it is "modifying" what was there originally. And as I mentioned, if you have a modern 1080p monitor it is happening within the set anyway.

The names they are applying to video (like 480i/60) are the source of a lot of confusion.

I can tell you that when played back on my Sony 50" 1080p monitor from my Sony S360 BD player, a source that is 1080i looks better when I encode with the BD-RB default than when "KEEP_INTERLACING" is enabled (smoother edges) just because LCDs don't like interlaced output very much. If you have a CRT based HDTV that may not be the case (I can't really say because I just don't know -- I don't think phospher persistency is an issue anymore in modern sets).

[jdobbs]

jdobbs:

I noticed that if I open 00000.m2ts (main movie) on the original batman begins disc using tsmuxergui all the audio tracks are flagged with timeshift=125ms. On the backup I made using BD-RB the 00000.m2ts does not have that flag. Is that on purpose?

I mean, is BD-RB compensating for the timeshift? I have that disc, I'll do an encode and check it out.

[jdobbs]

Thanks for the lengthy explanation of the terms and information :) I wasn't really looking back to see if my issue was the same as other peoples. I am aware of there being 2 issues here (mine and the other peoples).

I have personally experienced that "jitter" after running a concert dvd through BDRB when keeping video interlaced to retain that smooth motion of video = you then get the crazy jittering.

However my issue isn't related to that, I am solely talking about extras such as "making of" documentaries that are typically 480\60i. That is to say as I'm sure you are aware that 60 frames per second are generated from the interlaced stream.

This is the effect of creating a live action smooth movement as you would see on modern soap operas\news\sport programs.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying you are incorrect about anything, you obviously have a far greater understanding of the workings of this stuff than me. But I can categorically say that the only way to retain that "live action look" is to keep the source interlaced as it is on the original. When you de-interlace you are halving the frame rate to 29.97fps which can cause some juddering on this "making of" type films. Having the knock on effect of in say "The Matrix" making of documentary making the behind the scense material looking like film material.

Just to give one final example, if you download say an episode of your favourite soap that is shot on video from a torrent site (just for arguments sake) these groups always release their video in progressive format so when you watch it the video has a "film" look to it.

You know like the difference between "live action\film"...

I would like to retain that live action look if at all possible. Sorry for my ramblings and likely repeating myself :) I just did a comparison with KEEP_INTERLACING=1 and the default in BD-RB with a 1080i source. You definitely can see the combing on the edges when you use KEEP_INTERLACING and there is horizontal movement. But it is encoded correctly, I checked all settings in the MPLS, CLPI, etc.. and it's was done right. I have to assume it's just the nature of interlaced output to a modern TV -- either that or X264 isn't truely outputting as interlaced, and I don't think that's likely.

BUT... when I turned KEEP_INTERLACING off (the BD-RB default) -- I ended up with a beautiful 1080p picture that had nice smooth edges during horizontal movement...

I didn't look inside the M2TS for flags, but I have to assume X264 is encoding it correctly.

So the bottom line is -- I don't see anything to fix on the KEEP_INTERLACING=1 side.

One think I could do (and probably will), is still do the deinterlacing within AVISYNTH to clean up the edges but keep the output as 1080i so it matches the original...

I'm going to see if selecting movie-only makes a difference...

[Nkotok]

Sorry, I have not been able to follow the development of the program and wanted to know if any improvements have been made to 24f playability on Panasonic players (in BD25 Movie only mode) and also to more exact output size (undersized and sometimes oversized files were output before). Thank you in advance.

[Race Guy]

I can tell you that when played back on my Sony 50" 1080p monitor from my Sony S360 BD player, a source that is 1080i looks better when I encode with the BD-RB default than when "KEEP_INTERLACING" is enabled (smoother edges) just because LCDs don't like interlaced output very much. If you have a CRT based HDTV that may not be the case (I can't really say because I just don't know -- I don't think phospher persistency is an issue anymore in modern sets).

jdobbs......., doesn't the deinterlace happen in the player?

And isn't that the preferred method since the player would have MUCH more video "horsepower" than a screen would?

On the Oppo, it does the deinterlace & then outputs 1080p or 108p/24 to the screen. In the setup menu, I can select the following deinterlace modes:

Auto (that's where I leave it, 'cause 1080p & original "i" looks GREAT)
Film Bias Mode
Video Bias Mode
2:2 Odd
2:2 Even

Couldn't tell you what each of those are supposed to do, but I tried all those with the bum 1080i RB's & didn't see any real diff. I'd suspect, it's because the source is FUBAR up & can't be "saved".

[Race Guy]

BUT... when I turned KEEP_INTERLACING off (the BD-RB default) -- I ended up with a beautiful 1080p picture that had nice smooth edges during horizontal movement...

Where are you reading this "1080p" picture info. When you say "1080p", you mean 1080p/24?

Referring to my "poster child" 1080i RB done at "default", if I bring up the Oppo "on screen info", it says "AVC BDMV 29.97fps 16:9".

I can't believe the Oppo would LIE to me! Or maybe, something in the RB is "confusing" it, telling it to deinterlace when it shouldn't???

[Furiousflea]

I just did a comparison with KEEP_INTERLACING=1 and the default in BD-RB with a 1080i source. You definitely can see the combing on the edges when you use KEEP_INTERLACING and there is horizontal movement. But it is encoded correctly, I checked all settings in the MPLS, CLPI, etc.. and it's was done right. I have to assume it's just the nature of interlaced output to a modern TV -- either that or X264 isn't truely outputting as interlaced, and I don't think that's likely.

BUT... when I turned KEEP_INTERLACING off (the BD-RB default) -- I ended up with a beautiful 1080p picture that had nice smooth edges during horizontal movement...

I didn't look inside the M2TS for flags, but I have to assume X264 is encoding it correctly.

So the bottom line is -- I don't see anything to fix on the KEEP_INTERLACING=1 side.

One think I could do (and probably will), is still do the deinterlacing within AVISYNTH to clean up the edges but keep the output as 1080i so it matches the original...

I'm going to see if selecting movie-only makes a difference...

Okey dokey, thanx for looking into that. If I may be so cheeky, if you do have "The Matrix" (or any of the trilogy I would assume since they were released with matching extras) would you be so kind as to have a look at the main making of documentary with\without with "KEEP_INTERLACIN=1".

If you could then go to a bit that is live action behind the scenes and tell me if you can see the film look you get as you would in a main movie Vs how it looks on the original.

I guess there really is no way around it then, but I'm greatful for you having a good look at it as you have.

Cheers, Rob

[Sharc]

I was able to repeat the demuxing issue on Black Hawk Down with the Region A disc. It a TSMUXER issue, though, and I'm not sure I can do anything about it.
This sequence works for me:
1. demux the .m2ts with TSMUXER
2. re-size and re-encode the video
3. resize the original .sup from 1. using Sup2Sub.jar
4. remux 2. and 3. with TSMUXER

Perhaps you may want to include Sup2Sub in the Tools.

[Aratar]

I just did a comparison with KEEP_INTERLACING=1 and the default in BD-RB with a 1080i source. You definitely can see the combing on the edges when you use KEEP_INTERLACING and there is horizontal movement. But it is encoded correctly, I checked all settings in the MPLS, CLPI, etc.. and it's was done right.

When you see combing on interlaced encoded material then your playback filter/software isn't properly deinterlacing the interlaced material. There are several 'methods' to deinterlace the picture for a progressive screen playback. Not all of them 'reveal' field order issues. The issue I was talking about looks like that:

http://www.100fps.com/wrongfieldorder.avi
(taken from http://www.climaxtek.com/Faq/Deinterlacing.htm)

As I said, I encode interlaced material with the keep_interlacing=1 function (reason I mentioned earlier) and the output looks just like that on my standalone player as well as proper playback software like 'powerdvd 9' (deinterlacing is set to hardware).
I remember using mpeg2 encoding it was even possible to change the field order interpretation 'after' the encoding with a bitstream modifier (like pulldown.exe, restream or whatever) but I doubt that's possible with mpeg4 derivates.

[jdobbs]

Where are you reading this "1080p" picture info. When you say "1080p", you mean 1080p/24?

Referring to my "poster child" 1080i RB done at "default", if I bring up the Oppo "on screen info", it says "AVC BDMV 29.97fps 16:9".

I can't believe the Oppo would LIE to me! Or maybe, something in the RB is "confusing" it, telling it to deinterlace when it shouldn't??? You make a good point. The answer is "No." And that's an issue I have to fix for the next version. Even though every player I know of will play 1080p/29.97 -- it isn't in the BD standard.

[jdobbs]

Okey dokey, thanx for looking into that. If I may be so cheeky, if you do have "The Matrix" (or any of the trilogy I would assume since they were released with matching extras) would you be so kind as to have a look at the main making of documentary with\without with "KEEP_INTERLACIN=1".

If you could then go to a bit that is live action behind the scenes and tell me if you can see the film look you get as you would in a main movie Vs how it looks on the original.

I guess there really is no way around it then, but I'm greatful for you having a good look at it as you have.

Cheers, Rob I have "The Matrix" but not the others (yet). I'll test it.

[jdobbs]

Sorry, I have not been able to follow the development of the program and wanted to know if any improvements have been made to 24f playability on Panasonic players (in BD25 Movie only mode) and also to more exact output size (undersized and sometimes oversized files were output before). Thank you in advance. I can only say the my encodes are almost always exactly what I expect unless single-pass CRF is selected. I can't speak for others. I can say that most of the "sizing issues" I've heard of are against "tweaked" originals or "tweaked" processing. I can't address those.