Media Player Classic Home Cinema (MPC-HC) - DXVA!

[Virtual_ManPL]

Enabling "10-bit RGB Output" causes minimized MPC-HC to not render video in background.
Also in the end of 1-file playlist, MPC-HC will hangs, preventing file from replaying.

This is know and can someone confirm this too maybe ?

[burfadel]

Thanks for the new features!

Colour management for me only partially works. When a video is first loaded with it enabled, the picture is completely stuffed. The picture is white, with detail kind of like its embossed but with just a few colours and not the 3D effect of embossed (hope that makes sense). This is true no matter what the other renderer setting are set to, and also for both the internal MPC decoders and FFDshow (disabled internal filters so ffdshow is used) - reason for using ffdshow is the postprocessing and the adding of a tiny bit of luma noise.

Anyways, if any of 10-bit output, colour management, or full floating point processing is enabled or disabled, the picture becomes good! Note that colour management does work, just not from the start! after the presentation settings are changed it works perfectly. I don't know what causes it, but I see a simple workaround is when colour management is enabled, that it is disabled when a video is loaded and applied half a second or something after being loaded?...

Also 10-bit input doesn't work for me either, whatever the other settings are are changing things doesn't help it! the picture for me though is reddish and most details lost... This is true for both the internal decoders and ffdshow.

[a_afra]

Colour management for me only partially works.


I'm working on a fix.


Also 10-bit input doesn't work for me either, whatever the other settings are are changing things doesn't help it!


What do you mean? What happens if you enable that? Keep in mind that it forces 10-bit input, so nothing is guaranteed.


the picture for me though is reddish and most details lost... This is true for both the internal decoders and ffdshow.


Did you calibrate your display? If not, then color management is useless.

[3isi]

I have playback problems with a video. Have the version 1.3.2099.0 of MPC-HC, but I can't hear the audio.
I already asked in the german "gleitz forum". Maybe you would take a look at the sample and want to improve the playback support.

Sample:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=96CRRK5C

[burfadel]

Sorry, I meant its red with 10-bit input enabled!

Anyways, here are some screenshots. They are roughly cropped, but all of the same frame - the options could be changed and results showing without progressing the video.

Colour Management off:
http://i34.tinypic.com/34oars8.jpg

Colour Management on at the start:
http://i33.tinypic.com/15gz6ma.jpg

Force 10-bit RGB enabled:
http://i38.tinypic.com/2v0efxs.jpg

The results for 10-bit RGB and colour management are the same for both using the DXVA decoder, and the FFDShow decoder.

[oddball]

Seems to be working with my G210 and CoreAVC CUDA. Since reinstalling Win7 though I have lots of dropped frames and spikes in Vsync using EVR-CP. I have had to switch to EVR-Sync, turn off MPC-HC's internal Vsync and use ReClock's Vsync to get smooth results. Mind you the reinstall did fix an audio sync issue for me so it can't all be bad :D

[dansrfe]

How do I get MPC-HC to show album art?

[XhmikosR]

Sorry, I meant its red with 10-bit input enabled!

Anyways, here are some screenshots. They are roughly cropped, but all of the same frame - the options could be changed and results showing without progressing the video.

Colour Management off:
HUGE IMAGE

Colour Management on at the start:
HUGE IMAGE

Force 10-bit RGB enabled:
HUGE IMAGE

The results for 10-bit RGB and colour management are the same for both using the DXVA decoder, and the FFDShow decoder.
Please use thumbnails ;) I had the same issue, as reported here (https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/mpc-hc/ticket/677).

[alex_3d42]

Does the color management in MPC affect only the gamut? (XYZ points in sRGB color space), or it also affect the gamma curves?

My gamma curve are already calibrated for the entire windows desktop (using Windows Color System in W7), so when I activate the calibration in MPC, it makes a double calibration or not?

Sorry for my really poor English.

[a_afra]

Does the color management in MPC affect only the gamut? (XYZ points in sRGB color space), or it also affect the gamma curves?


It affects the gamma curves too, but you need an ICC profile. The Windows calibration is not enough to get accurate tones.

[Polcius]

Studio monitors are usually calibrated to 2.35-2.4 gamma. Surprisingly it's not standardized yet. Since the goal of the color management feature is to get as close to the original appearance as possible, it should be viewed at the gamma of the studio monitor used by the authors of the video. However, the optimal gamma depends on the viewing conditions. A gamma of 2.35 looks as it should only in a dark environment. This is why you can change this value if you would like to.

The most important thing is to properly calibrate your display (It doesn't matter to what gamma value). This is the only way to get accurate colors and gamma. Without calibration, the color management feature is useless.

I will soon update the wiki with a detailed description of the new features.

Ok, but if I calibrated my display with gamma 2.2, should I check the color management option of gamma 2.2 in MPC-HC?

[a_afra]

Ok, but if I calibrated my display with gamma 2.2, should I check the color management option of gamma 2.2 in MPC-HC?

No. For a color managed application it doesn't matter to what gamma you calibrate the display.

[Polcius]

No. For a color managed application it doesn't matter to what gamma you calibrate the display.

So, when should the option be checked?

I really don't understand it. And I really think that if I calibrate my display's gamma to 2.2 or 2.4 IT WILL make a difference on the video.

BTW: The calibration I've done is in a proffesional way with a colorimeter, and I used a Calibration-DVD playing in MPC-HC to do it.

[edison]

is it possible the EVR C/P use D3D10 display format? Because the NVIDIA card does not support D3D9 10-bit out-put but D3D10 can do.

http://image163.poco.cn/mypoco/myphoto/20100824/10/13329020100824101430086.jpg

http://image163.poco.cn/mypoco/myphoto/20100824/10/1332902010082410084401.jpg

[Momber]

no it isn't. Just tell the decoder to output nv12 and set the interlace flags acordingly.
lmao.

[Momber]

The most important new functionality is proper, full ICC color management. I believe this is a unique feature amongst media players (correct me if I'm wrong).
MPC w/ EVR CP under Vista has been honoring ICC profiles for years, including with DXVA. Provided they were properly installed as system default and loaded upon startup.

FYI, there is only one correct gamma to be used in a home cinema and that is 2.2.

[alex_3d42]

It affects the gamma curves too, but you need an ICC profile. The Windows calibration is not enough to get accurate tones.

I have an ICC profile made with LaCie Blue Eye Pro.

If I load my ICC profile in a soft like LutManager (http://www.slagermanphoto.com/blog/wp-content/uploads//2009/03/lut.jpg) I think it made a double calibration with MPC-HC :confused:

[a_afra]

So, when should the option be checked?

I really don't understand it. And I really think that if I calibrate my display's gamma to 2.2 or 2.4 IT WILL make a difference on the video.

BTW: The calibration I've done is in a proffesional way with a colorimeter, and I used a Calibration-DVD playing in MPC-HC to do it.

You should enable color management only if you've created an ICC profile with a colorimeter. I don't understand why it's so confusing. In MPC-HC it works the same way as in every single Adobe product, Firefox, Chrome, etc. The only difference is that you can change the gamma value, because it's not standardized for HDTV and SDTV signals. Please read this through: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_management

What do you mean by "a professional way"? If you have a colorimeter, you should use the software it came with it, or some other third party application (e.g., ColorEyes, basICColor). That will calibrate and profile your display. Color management doesn't work without a profile. Did you use that calibration DVD to verify the results?

MPC w/ EVR CP under Vista has been honoring ICC profiles for years, including with DXVA. Provided they were properly installed as system default and loaded upon startup.

FYI, there is only one correct gamma to be used in a home cinema and that is 2.2.

Now this is pretty interesting. For years? :) Could you please send me some documents or screenshots as proof?
Regarding the one correct gamma for home cinema: the same, please send me some technical documention if you can. I do not agree, nor does Charles Poynton: http://www.poynton.com/notes/PU-PR-IS/Poynton-PU-PR-IS.pdf

I have an ICC profile made with LaCie Blue Eye Pro.

If I load my ICC profile in a soft like LutManager (http://www.slagermanphoto.com/blog/wp-content/uploads//2009/03/lut.jpg) I think it made a double calibration with MPC-HC :confused:

The whole point of color management is that you don't have to worry about such things. Please check this article out: http://www.updig.org/guidelines/ph_monitor_calibration.html

Here's a quote:

If you are working in Adobe Photoshop, monitor gamma will not affect the appearance of image files, since Photoshop automatically corrects the gamma of the image as it is displayed on the monitor. Choosing a gamma has more to do with allowing your monitor to operate in its particular sweet spot, and avoiding loss of gamut, banding or posterization that may appear if you force it to run too far from its native gamma.


In MPC you don't have to worry about banding or posterisation thanks to the dithering.

What do you mean by "double calibration"? Please describe it in more detail and post some screenshots.

If some of you are still not convinced, I suggest you read the Introduction of the official ICC specification: http://www.color.org/ICC1v42_2006-05.pdf

[Maccara]

a_afra: I think people have trouble making the distinction between calibration and profiling. Two totally different sides of the common coin of color management.

[alex_3d42]

What do you mean by "double calibration"? Please describe it in more detail and post some screenshots.



http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9362/colorsu.jpg

Hope you understand with what I call "double calibration"

[a_afra]

a_afra: I think people have trouble making the distinction between calibration and profiling. Two totally different sides of the common coin of color management.

Yeah, it seems so. But the good news is that if you've created an ICC profile for the display, the only thing you have to do is to enable the color management option in MPC, then forget it. Otherwise, leave it turned off. Basically, this is all you have to know.

[a_afra]

Hope you understand with what I call "double calibration"

Yeah. How did you calibrate your display? Have you associated an ICC profile with the display in Windows?

[decapitado]

@a_afra
Thank you for the new features.

I´ve tried the 10bit forced and works great on my 10bit lcd.

But now the seek bar doesn´t show up. Is it normal?

[a_afra]

I´ve tried the 10bit forced and works great on my 10bit lcd.

But now the seek bar doesn´t show up. Is it normal?

In full screen mode? What surface/backbuffer/display formats does the EVR stats report?

[alex_3d42]

Yeah. How did you calibrate your display? Have you associated an ICC profile with the display in Windows?

Yes, my ICC profile is associated with the display.

In Windows 7, when i associate the ICC profile, the screen become a bit more red.

[decapitado]

In full screen mode? What surface/backbuffer/display formats does the EVR stats report?
Yes, that happens just in fullscreen.

stats are:surface A2R10G10B10
backbuffer X8R8G8B8
display X8R8G8B8

card is a nvidia gt240 on win7 32bit

[a_afra]

Yes, my ICC profile is associated with the display.

In Windows 7, when i associate the ICC profile, the screen become a bit more red.

I see. Do the gray tones turn reddish too? Could you please attach your ICC profile?

[Maccara]

Yeah, it seems so. But the good news is that if you've created an ICC profile for the display, the only thing you have to do is to enable the color management option in MPC, then forget it. Otherwise, leave it turned off. Basically, this is all you have to know.

And this is exactly how I tested it and concluded it seems to work ok. I calibrated my monitor on purpose a little out of whack (green tint) and then profiled it and assigned the profile -> mpc-hc with the new options seemed to "reverse" the damage I did just fine. I used argyllcms for the calib/prof job. Edit: I've done only quick test, so don't know if there might be some bugs still. ;)

[STaRGaZeR]

lmao.

If you don't know how to properly do it, don't laugh when people tell you how to do so ;)

[a_afra]

Yes, that happens just in fullscreen.

stats are:surface A2R10G10B10
backbuffer X8R8G8B8
display X8R8G8B8

card is a nvidia gt240 on win7 32bit

So you can see the seek bar if you turn off the force 10-bit option? Unfortunately I cannot reproduce this problem. I have an NVIDIA GPU similar to yours.

[alex_3d42]

I see. Do the gray tones turn reddish too? Could you please attach your ICC profile?

Yes, the gray tones turn reddish.

The profile (.icc file) :
http://img1.focus-numerique.com/focus/profils-LCD/LG%20Flatron%20W2261V.icc

[Mercury_22]

Yes, that happens just in fullscreen.

stats are:surface A2R10G10B10
backbuffer X8R8G8B8
display X8R8G8B8

card is a nvidia gt240 on win7 32bit

First are you using D3D Fullscreen Mode or just Fullscreen?
Second that's NOT a 10-bit RGB "chain"
D3D Fullscreen (and aero off ? not sure) it's the only way to get a "real" 10-bit RGB = Surface A2R10G10B10 Backbuffer A2R10G10B10 Display A2R10G10B10

[a_afra]

Yes, the gray tones turn reddish.

The profile (.icc file) :
http://img1.focus-numerique.com/focus/profils-LCD/LG%20Flatron%20W2261V.icc

Thanks. Strange... That profile doesn't change the picture significantly on my machine (color management in MPC On vs Off). Let's try a few things out.

First, please post screenshots of the same video frame with and without color management. Use "alt + print screen".

Then, open the screenshot without color management in a color managed image viewer (like Windows 7's default one). The resulting image should be similar the one produced by MPC-HC with color management. Don't open the image with color management turned on with the viewer! The colors will be wrong, because that way they are corrected twice. Is there any significant difference? If so, please post a screenshot of the image viewer too.

[alex_3d42]

I have tested a couple of combinaison for the calibration. (Screenshot taken with MPC-HC calibration turned Off)

MPC-HC On - W7 image viewer:
Same gammut but the image is darker in MPC-HC (effect of the 2.2 gamma setting ?)

MPC-HC Off - W7 image viewer :
More saturate colors and a darker image in MPC-HC

MPC-HC On - Photofiltre (image viewer without color management) :
More saturate colors in Photofiltre, a little bit more dark in MPC

MPC-HC Off - Photofiltre :
Exactly the same image.

[Momber]

Now this is pretty interesting. For years? :) Could you please send me some documents or screenshots as proof?
I don't need to proof anything to you.
For years means "more than one year", I don't remember when exactly I made the switch to MPC and VISTA for this reason alone. You are right though in one thing you said: most other players don't honor ICC profiles, i. e. Power DVD or Arcsoft, even if EVR is selected as renderer.

Another inaccuracy in what you wrote: you don't need to tell Photoshop to use your system-wide default display profile either. There is not even an option to do so. It will use it automatically, if it's there.

I do not agree, nor does Charles Poynton:
I don't care if you agree. You are still wrong.
Besides, it's very obvious that gamma 2.4 is wrong, if you have eyes in your head.

[a_afra]

Momber: If you don't care, have nothing to back your claims, and cannot say anything constructive than why waste other people's precious time with such posts? It doesn't make any sense if you have a brain in your head ;)

[nevcairiel]

@a_afra: Just don't feed the trolls, ignoring is the only course of action.

[a_afra]

I have tested a couple of combinaison for the calibration. (Screenshot taken with MPC-HC calibration turned Off)


I can't see the images or links to them.

[edison]

First are you using D3D Fullscreen Mode or just Fullscreen?
Second that's NOT a 10-bit RGB "chain"
D3D Fullscreen (and aero off ? not sure) it's the only way to get a "real" 10-bit RGB = Surface A2R10G10B10 Backbuffer A2R10G10B10 Display A2R10G10B10

As what i said before, the NVIDIA cards can not use 10-bit output + D3D Fullscreen Mode,because you will meet a D3D CreateDevice failed pop-up window in this mode.

[decapitado]

So you can see the seek bar if you turn off the force 10-bit option? Unfortunately I cannot reproduce this problem. I have an NVIDIA GPU similar to yours.
It started working after I restarted the pc.

First are you using D3D Fullscreen Mode or just Fullscreen?
Second that's NOT a 10-bit RGB "chain"
D3D Fullscreen (and aero off ? not sure) it's the only way to get a "real" 10-bit RGB = Surface A2R10G10B10 Backbuffer A2R10G10B10 Display A2R10G10B10
It was with just Fullscreen.

With 10bit, force 10bit, and D3D Gui Support I get Surface and Backbuffer both 10bit, but Display 8bit.

With the above but D3D Fullscreen Mode I get an error "error creatdevice.. D3Dallocator not present" and the movie starts but with 8bit display.

Aero didn´t change anything on or off.

Well, I guess I´ll stick with 8bit mode, it works fine.

[decapitado]

As what i said before, the NVIDIA cards can not use 10-bit output + D3D Fullscreen Mode,because you will meet a D3D CreateDevice failed pop-up window in this mode.
Yes, that happens.

There is no workaround for that?

[a_afra]

With the above but D3D Fullscreen Mode I get an error "error creatdevice.. D3Dallocator not present" and the movie starts but with 8bit display.


I think the only NVIDIA GPUs that support 10-bit output are the Quadros, and you also need a Displayport connection.

Using the force 10-bit input option enables dithering, so you shouldn't see any banding even with 8-bit output. :)

[alex_3d42]

I can't see the images or links to them.

With MPC Calibration :
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9303/withs.th.png (http://img824.imageshack.us/i/withs.png/)

Without MPC Calibration :
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1708/without.th.png (http://img829.imageshack.us/i/without.png/)

[a_afra]

MPC-HC On - W7 image viewer:
Same gammut but the image is darker in MPC-HC (effect of the 2.2 gamma setting ?)


Based on this info and your images, I think MPC's color management works properly. Your monitor's reds are not saturated enough by default, so color management increases the saturation to compensate. This must be done on top of the LUT calibration.

[alex_3d42]

For exemple if we play a HD video (BT.709) on a Wide Gamut screen :

MPC-HC will do that thing to prevent over saturate colors :

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9329/gamut.png
Xr : 0.7347 to 0.6400
Yr : 0.2653 to 0.3300

Xg : 0.1152 to 0.3000
Yg : 0.8264 to 0.6000

Xb : 0.1566 to 0.1500
Yb : 0.0177 to 0.0600

So, MPC-HC is very good for the colors saturation.

But for example, if the screen has a 2.1 gamma, the ICC profile will say to LUTManager to increase the gamma (+0.1)
The screen has now a 2.2 gamma on all windows application.

But if MPC-HC read the ICC profil, it will increase the gamma too ! the video will have a 2.3 gamma ?


Really sorry for my English.

[Mercury_22]

@ a_afra Can you comment more about the 2.2 gamma since the guys from HDTVtest are clearly saying that it should be 2.2 (and white point D65) in all their calibrations

Example: Greyscale and Gamma are vital for portraying a given image accurately. Therefore, the display must be calibrated to a set of standards used by the motion video industry. In the case of HDTV, the set standard for colour space is Rec. 709 which is similar to sRGB, and both standards share identical white point (D65) and we chose the gamma value of 2.2. (http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-le40c580-le32c580-20100728791.htm)

You can read more of their reviews here http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/

[madshi]

@ a_afra Can you comment more about the 2.2 gamma since the guys from HDTVtest are clearly saying that it should be 2.2 (and white point D65) in all their calibrations
If you lurk around the AVSForum calibration threads, you'll find that most professional calibrators use a pure power curve around 2.35 - *however*, only for a batcave and only if your display has a really good native contrast ratio (e.g. newer JVC projectors). If you have *any* ambient light, or if your display is lacking in native contrast ratio, a 2.2 gamma curve might make more sense.

[a_afra]

But if MPC-HC read the ICC profil, it will increase the gamma too ! the video will have a 2.3 gamma ?


You got the saturation part right. :) No more oversaturated colors on wide gamut displays!

The final video gamma will be exactly the value you select in MPC-HC.

For example: Screen has 2.1 native gamma. The ICC file contains calibration data to change from 2.1 to 2.2. LUT Manager (or Windows 7's "Use Windows display calibration" option) applies this calibration. The entire screen now has 2.2 gamma. The ICC also contains the gamut and the calibrated gamma curve, which is 2.2 in this case. MPC uses this information to perform gamut mapping and conversion from the calibrated 2.2 gamma to the video gamma specified by you in MPC. The default value is 2.35, because that is the most widely used value for studio monitors. Of course, if you don't like it, you can change it to 2.2 (or a different value).

Video gamma is not that important. It's not standardized, and the optimal value depends on the viewing conditions (and taste ;)) anyway . Any value between 2.2 and 2.4 should be OK.

Hope it's a bit more clear now. :)

[alex_3d42]

Yeah, it's really more clear for me :)

Thank you.

[edison]

I think the only NVIDIA GPUs that support 10-bit output are the Quadros, and you also need a Displayport connection.

Using the force 10-bit input option enables dithering, so you shouldn't see any banding even with 8-bit output. :)

NVIDIA Quadro does suuport 10-bit output in OpenGL, but Both Quadro and GeForce does support 10-bit output in D3D10, that I had comfired through run the 10-bit scan-out demo that included in MS DX SDK with DELL U2410 use Displayport/HD15 input.