Media Player Classic Home Cinema (MPC-HC) - DXVA!

[Andy o]

Why should I need to explain it.... if dolby site suggest that surround == side channels, then I would think software like powerdvd and mpc-hc should respect this, instead of basing mpc-hc's workings on other software?

I don't think we should verify mpc-hc's correctness against something like powerdvd or tmt anyways.

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_entertainment/speaker-setup-guide/index.html

It clearly distinguishes that there is L and R "Surround" and L and R "Back", meaning as you seem to suggest, that powerdvd, tmt and mpc-hc are all incorrect in sending "surround" also to the "back"...... It should be sent to "Surround" or "Side" as some people call it.

I can use my Xonar to swap Back and Side in a 7.1 config, and this shows that Asus also seem to think "Surround" should mean "Side". I havn't found any reference or site to suggest otherwise... apart from the actual software that in my opinion isn't correct (ie mpc-hc, powerdvd, tmt). Of course I would be happy to be proven incorrect, in which case the likes of Asus should be contacted but Dolby seems...... like a more reliable source when it comes to this?

EDIT: Not that its more trustable, but the wikipedia page also suggests that 7.1 audio, the "surround" channels go to the sides, distinct from the "surround back" which go to the back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surround_sound#7.1_Channel_Surround_.28digital_discrete:_Dolby_Digital_Plus.2C_DTS-HD_Master_Audio.2C_Dolby_TrueHD.29

I don't think this is a problem of MPC-HC. It has bothered me too for ages, but ReClock or WASAPI exclusive gets around it by setting your output channels in Windows to match the source.

The problem is that ANY program that sends a 5.1 stream to the driver that is set to 7.1 output, will get its 5.1 "surround" channels mapped to the 7.1 "back-surround" channels. I'm not sure if it's a problem of drivers or of Windows, but I'm almost certain it's not the programs' fault. You can also get around it obviously by sending a 7.1 signal to the driver, with 2 blank back surround channels, which you can sometimes do if you mess with the mixer in the program itself.

I noticed that was happening with TotalMedia Theatre 3, only for TrueHD it was OK, see here (http://www.arcsoft.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1815&PID=8597#8597) for details.

With PowerDVD 8, the "HDMI" output option automatically sends out to the driver the number of channels it's getting from the source, while the "8 speakers" option always sends out 7.1, with blank channels, that's why "8 speakers" doesn't have the problem you're describing. You can verify how many channels the program is sending out with ReClock too.

[mark0077]

How are your speaker labeled ?

e.g. Logitech Z-5500 a 5.1 digital surround sound speaker system:
Digital Satellites:
Left/Right: 62 watts RMS x 2 (into 8 ohms, @ 1khz, @ 10% THD)
Center: 69 watts RMS (into 8 ohms, @ 1kHz, @ 10% THD)
Rear Left & Right: 62 watts RMS x 2 (into 8 ohms, @ 1kHz, @ 10% THD) (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/224&cl=us,en)

Or from Creative T6200 also a 5.1 speaker system :

Flexible layout options
Get the perfect speaker system for a place with limited space. The design of the speakers allows you to stack the rear satellite speakers on top of the front satellites and enjoy frontal surround experience. (http://us.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=4&subcategory=789&product=17987&listby=usage)

P.S. Previously I was referring to windows's dolby decoder, or better to WMP

Yeah Megaworks 550 also labelled the surrounds as rear, not "side" or "back" just rear, so obviously this debate wasn't an issue when my speakers, or the ones you mentioned were created, no talk of side or back in either case.

Still no documentation or webpage that shows me one or the other is correct for definite, just everything either points to side rather than back OR doesn't point to either.

If there is no definitive answer, does software like mpc-hc have the ability to choose side or back when outputting to the OS / Audio Renderer / whatever is next in the chain.... If so the option should be provided in the application because (i know i have said it like 10 times) but everything I have read leads me to believe side is correct rather than back, if one or the other should be used over the other.

Thanks for all of the workarounds guys, setting channels to X, moving my analog connections to back versus side on my soundcard, but for the thousands of others that don't have the luxury of reading this thread, they can't get such benefit. I feel something should be done. Either defaults be set to match what is found to be correct from the available documentation (if possible), and / or provide an option for side versus back output for surrounds. Preferably both?

[mark0077]

some mkvmerge versions are know to give frozen frames I think.

Cheers for that.. Unfortunately I have tested the file that came straight from makemkv, aswell as an edited version of it (mpeg2 headers changed) saved by mkvmerge, both show this effect.

Will post on makemkv site, and use mpc-hc gothsync to visually show the problem... as the normal mpc-hc doesn't show the blip On the graph like gothsync does. Cheers.

[Mercury_22]

Yeah Megaworks 550 also labelled the surrounds as rear, not "side" or "back" just rear, so obviously this debate wasn't an issue when my speakers, or the ones you mentioned were created, no talk of side or back in either case.

Still no documentation or webpage that shows me one or the other is correct for definite, just everything either points to side rather than back OR doesn't point to either.

If there is no definitive answer, does software like mpc-hc have the ability to choose side or back when outputting to the OS / Audio Renderer / whatever is next in the chain.... If so the option should be provided in the application because (i know i have said it like 10 times) but everything I have read leads me to believe side is correct rather than back, if one or the other should be used over the other.

Thanks for all of the workarounds guys, setting channels to X, moving my analog connections to back versus side on my soundcard, but for the thousands of others that don't have the luxury of reading this thread, they can't get such benefit. I feel something should be done. Either defaults be set to match what is found to be correct from the available documentation (if possible), and / or provide an option for side versus back output for surrounds. Preferably both?

The following table shows the speaker configurations that are defined for DVD: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms791058.aspx

Configuration -> Speaker position
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_GROUND_FRONT_LEFT -> SPEAKER_FRONT_LEFT
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_GROUND_FRONT_CENTER -> SPEAKER_FRONT_CENTER
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_GROUND_FRONT_RIGHT -> SPEAKER_FRONT_RIGHT
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_GROUND_REAR_LEFT -> SPEAKER_BACK_LEFT
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_GROUND_REAR_RIGHT -> SPEAKER_BACK_RIGHT
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_TOP_MIDDLE -> SPEAKER_TOP_CENTER
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_SUPER_WOOFER -> SPEAKER_LOW_FREQUENCY

.........................................
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_5POINT1 -> (SPEAKER_FRONT_LEFT | SPEAKER_FRONT_RIGHT | SPEAKER_FRONT_CENTER | SPEAKER_LOW_FREQUENCY | SPEAKER_BACK_LEFT | SPEAKER_BACK_RIGHT)
........
The speaker configuration for a 5.1-channel surround format is defined by the constant KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_5POINT1_SURROUND in the preceding table. The geometric layout of the speakers is shown in the following figure, which shows the positions of the front-left, front-right, front-center, side-left, and side-right speakers.

.................................................

Also from DTS
7.1 channels, for more intense movies and music

DTS-HD is capable of 7.1 channels of sound, totally immersing you in movies and music. (Remember, a typical 5.1-channel system consists of two front and two rear speakers, a center-channel speaker, and a subwoofer / bass management channel, which is the ".1") By using two additional channels — for "side surround" speakers at your left and right — sound can be more accurately placed in your listening room. This means that special effects pans, like jet-fighter flyovers or arrows whizzing past you, will be more dramatic and life like. (http://www.dts.com/DTS_Audio_Formats/DTS-HD_Master_Audio.aspx)

[THX-UltraII]

Can MPC-HC deal with a BR folder? (folder which contains a BDMV and CERTIFICATE folder). If so, how? I tried to OPEN DVD in MPC and select the complete folder but nothing loads.

[Jong]

"Open DVD" at the root should work. Does here. What build of MPC-HC are you using? What filters? You should use the internal .ts splitter, not Haali.

[mark0077]

The following table shows the speaker configurations that are defined for DVD: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms791058.aspx

Configuration -> Speaker position
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_GROUND_FRONT_LEFT -> SPEAKER_FRONT_LEFT
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_GROUND_FRONT_CENTER -> SPEAKER_FRONT_CENTER
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_GROUND_FRONT_RIGHT -> SPEAKER_FRONT_RIGHT
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_GROUND_REAR_LEFT -> SPEAKER_BACK_LEFT
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_GROUND_REAR_RIGHT -> SPEAKER_BACK_RIGHT
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_TOP_MIDDLE -> SPEAKER_TOP_CENTER
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_SUPER_WOOFER -> SPEAKER_LOW_FREQUENCY

.........................................
KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_5POINT1 -> (SPEAKER_FRONT_LEFT | SPEAKER_FRONT_RIGHT | SPEAKER_FRONT_CENTER | SPEAKER_LOW_FREQUENCY | SPEAKER_BACK_LEFT | SPEAKER_BACK_RIGHT)
........
The speaker configuration for a 5.1-channel surround format is defined by the constant KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_5POINT1_SURROUND in the preceding table. The geometric layout of the speakers is shown in the following figure, which shows the positions of the front-left, front-right, front-center, side-left, and side-right speakers.

.................................................

Also from DTS
7.1 channels, for more intense movies and music

DTS-HD is capable of 7.1 channels of sound, totally immersing you in movies and music. (Remember, a typical 5.1-channel system consists of two front and two rear speakers, a center-channel speaker, and a subwoofer / bass management channel, which is the ".1") By using two additional channels — for "side surround" speakers at your left and right — sound can be more accurately placed in your listening room. This means that special effects pans, like jet-fighter flyovers or arrows whizzing past you, will be more dramatic and life like. (http://www.dts.com/DTS_Audio_Formats/DTS-HD_Master_Audio.aspx)

OK cheers. So its clear to me from what I have read over the past few days that there isn't a correct definition of surround, side or back. Different sites suggest one or the other is correct.

My question therefore is, when an audio driver chooses (or gives the option) to choose side versus back for 5.1 (within 7.1 possible channels) like the asus xonar drivers do, can or does software like mpc-hc read this preference from the OS, ie read what is meant by surround according to the audio driver. What I am trying to say is, can mpc-hc correctly send surround data to side versus back based on drivers definition of surround.

If this can't be done automatically, then an option should be given in the application (like in Grand Theft Auto) so that the user can manually match what is output by the application, to whatever is chosen in the drivers config / or assumed by the audio driver.

If this can be done automatically, and there are problems / bugs with this automated reading of the preference, these bugs should be reported to driver manufacturers, or whatever is at fault etc.

The current state of this to me isn't satisfactory, as my xonar clearly by default (as I personally have physically setup and prefer), selects sides to be used for "surround" in 5.1, but it is configurable (with a use back instead of sides option). mpc-hc, no matter what I choose in my audio driver, aswell as ffdshow, seems to output surround to the back with what seems like no automation involved. To me this is a problem.

[bran]

Both Onkyo and Asus define the surrounds in 5.1 as side. Which, IMO is the correct term.

[6233638]

Problem:
WVC1 in bluray m2ts files plays back at very low framerate using internal splitter.

Happens with ffdshow using wmv9 or libavcodec. CPU is below 50%.

Videos play smoothly using Haali's splitter, but that doesnt give descriptions for video/audio/subtitle tracks.

[Mercury_22]

OK cheers. So its clear to me from what I have read over the past few days that there isn't a correct definition of surround, side or back. Different sites suggest one or the other is correct.

My question therefore is, when an audio driver chooses (or gives the option) to choose side versus back for 5.1 (within 7.1 possible channels) like the asus xonar drivers do, can or does software like mpc-hc read this preference from the OS, ie read what is meant by surround according to the audio driver. What I am trying to say is, can mpc-hc correctly send surround data to side versus back based on drivers definition of surround.

If this can't be done automatically, then an option should be given in the application (like in Grand Theft Auto) so that the user can manually match what is output by the application, to whatever is chosen in the drivers config / or assumed by the audio driver.

If this can be done automatically, and there are problems / bugs with this automated reading of the preference, these bugs should be reported to driver manufacturers, or whatever is at fault etc.

The current state of this to me isn't satisfactory, as my xonar clearly by default (as I personally have physically setup and prefer), selects sides to be used for "surround" in 5.1, but it is configurable (with a use back instead of sides option). mpc-hc, no matter what I choose in my audio driver, aswell as ffdshow, seems to output surround to the back with what seems like no automation involved. To me this is a problem.

You can always enable custom channel mapping and for 5.1 sound put your surround channels to side speakers

Can we at least agree that the 7.1 mapping it's correct ? (= 7.1 LPCM, TrueHD, DD+, DTS-HD HR or MA on a 7.1 speaker config )

[mark0077]

You can always enable custom channel mapping and for 5.1 sound put your surround channels to side speakers

Can we at least agree that the 7.1 mapping it's correct ? (= 7.1 LPCM, TrueHD, DD+, DTS-HD HR or MA on a 7.1 speaker config )

Yeah I think the mapping is correct for 7.1, perfect, as it is well defined for the developers, although as I reported there are other issues not related to my 5.1 in 7.1 discussion

The "Navigate" -> "Audio" displays incorrect details, ie it displays input as 6 channels versus 8 for the non LPCM files you gave me (Im in Windows 7 RTM).
As I also reported, the audio decoder channel settings in mpc-hc don't have anything more than "3 front + 2 rear", and it defaults to stereo. All of which I would love to see cleaned up, to have ability to select 7.1, and auto detect (if user hasn't manually selected one) the speaker config from windows.

For 5.1 (in > 5.1 configs)
Yes custom channel mapping is an option, but all of these workarounds are fine for me or you, but I am trying to push a more general solution, ie an option in the gui for "surround", should it be "Side" or "Left" and the application can default to one of those of course.

That is only required of course if this variable can't be read from the Os. If this reading from the os (or the equivalent of that) is possible / intended, then mpc-hc isn't doing it correctly as my xonar (and windows itself) explicitly uses the side channels for the surround in 5.1, but mpc-hc doesn't seem to detect this currently.

[Mercury_22]

Yeah I think the mapping is correct for 7.1, perfect, as it is well defined for the developers, although as I reported there are other issues not related to my 5.1 in 7.1 discussion

The "Navigate" -> "Audio" displays incorrect details, ie it displays input as 6 channels versus 8 for the non LPCM files you gave me (Im in Windows 7 RTM).
As I also reported, the audio decoder channel settings in mpc-hc don't have anything more than "3 front + 2 rear", and it defaults to stereo. All of which I would love to see cleaned up, to have ability to select 7.1, and auto detect (if user hasn't manually selected one) the speaker config from windows.

For 5.1 (in > 5.1 configs)
Yes custom channel mapping is an option, but all of these workarounds are fine for me or you, but I am trying to push a more general solution, ie an option in the gui for "surround", should it be "Side" or "Left" and the application can default to one of those of course.

That is only required of course if this variable can't be read from the Os. If this reading from the os (or the equivalent of that) is possible / intended, then mpc-hc isn't doing it correctly as my xonar (and windows itself) explicitly uses the side channels for the surround in 5.1, but mpc-hc doesn't seem to detect this currently.

I've already reported the missing 7.1 speakers configuration some time ago (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2835743&group_id=170561&atid=854651)
The current max setting, "3 front + 2 rear", it's correct cause it's referring only to AC3 and DTS which all have max 5.1 channels.
Also you're correct about the "Navigate" -> "Audio" displays incorrect details, ie it displays input as 6 channels versus 8 for the non LPCM files
In a 5.1 speaker config if you select in your driver side speaker for the surround channels when you play a 5.1 sound MPC-HC and FFDShow are using the rear out or side out ?

So just to recap the only problem is that when using 7.1 speakers when you play a 5.1 sound the surround channels are coming out from the rear speakers and you say it should come out from the side speaker ?

[mark0077]

Well, I should have been more clear on that, the xonar gives an option (when its set in 7.1 mode), to SWAP side and back channels. By default it is off, so side input goes to side output, back input goes to back output. When setting xonar to 5.1 as I already said, its gui and speaker channel tests, assumes surround in 5.1 should go to the sides.

So I stronly feel that the application still should send surround to the correct place (depending on driver workings / user preference?), especially for those that don't have this luxury of an option to swap back and forth.

Would be nice to hear from some of the developers if this auto-detection is possible / part of the process, and if not possible, when we could possibly expect to see a manual option in the application for back versus side output for surround channels.

To recap: My problem really is, because I have a 7.1 sound card, and am only using 5.1 speakers, the fact mpc-hc and ffdshow (and others) seem to be sending audio explicitly to the back channels, I either hear channel bleeding (probably my xonar trying to mix the back input its receiving, to the sides), or I hear nothing, as my soundcard is expecting surround data designated to the sides not the back that it is getting.

PS: Cheers for the info on settings for ac3 / dts, so it appears there isn't this "Decode to" option for other audio formats.

[Mercury_22]

Well, I should have been more clear on that, the xonar gives an option (when its set in 7.1 mode), to SWAP side and back channels. By default it is off, so side input goes to side output, back input goes to back output. When setting xonar to 5.1 as I already said, its gui and speaker channel tests, assumes surround in 5.1 should go to the sides.

So I stronly feel that the application still should send surround to the correct place (depending on driver workings / user preference?), especially for those that don't have this luxury of an option to swap back and forth.

Would be nice to hear from some of the developers if this detection is possible / part of the process, and if not possibly, when we could possibly expect a manual option in the application for back versus side output for surround channels.

To recap: My problem really is, because I have a 7.1 sound card, and am only using 5.1 speakers, the fact mpc-hc and ffdshow (and others) seem to be sending audio explicitly to the back channels, I either hear channel bleeding (probably my xonar trying to mix the back input its receiving, to the sides), or I hear nothing, as my soundcard is expecting surround data designated to the sides not the back that it is getting.

PS: Cheers for the info on settings for ac3 / dts, so it appears there isn't this "Decode to" option for other audio formats.

It seems to me that it's something wrong with your card because when i'm setting my speaker config to 5.1 in windows my drivers are also using the side output and MPC-HC and FFDShow are sending the sound from the surround channels correct to the side!

[mark0077]

Oh really, thats interesting.

When playing 5.1, can you go into ffdshow audio mixer, does it show audio going to back or sides. Its "Info & CPU" tab will also say back vs side as "output speakers".

If it points to sides, then ffdshow / mpc-hc must be auto detecting this, in which case either mpc-hc or xonar is at fault on my machine, ie its not detecting what surround should correspond to.
If it points to back, maybe your soundcard is smart and compensating by still sending it to the sides for you :)

For me ffdshow explicitly says "back" as input and output, so outputs surround there. My Xonar then tries to upmix this somehow, as I hear left back channel 90% from left side, and about 10% from right side.

[Mercury_22]

Oh really, thats interesting.

When playing 5.1, can you go into ffdshow audio mixer, does it show audio going to back or sides. Its info box will also say back vs side.

If it points to sides, then ffdshow / mpc-hc must be auto detecting this, in which case either mpc-hc or xonar is at fault on my machine, ie its not detecting what surround should correspond to.
If it points to back, maybe your soundcard is smart and compensating by still sending it to the sides for you :)

For me ffdshow explicitly says "back" as input and output, so outputs surround there. My Xonar then tries to upmix this somehow, as I hear left back channel 90% from left side, and about 10% from right side.

I'm not using FFDShow anymore so the test has been done with just MPC ! But again I've changed in windows the speaker setup from 7.1 to 5.1 and only then I have surround to side out and MPC-HC it's using side (side being the only option because my drivers are exposing that pin)

Try this TEST_5.1_TRUEHD (http://sharebee.com/6098e006) file

[mark0077]

Cool, well if you get a chance, let me know what ffdshow says its outputting when you use it. Until you see visually that its outputting to, side or back, you can't be sure your soundcard isn't rerouting / upmixing so that you hear from side rather than rear. This is the case with me, xonar reroutes back output from these applications to the side channels (upmixes rather) so it sounds correct during sound tests, until I listen carefully and can hear bleeding of channels caused by the upmixing.

I will try to find software that can easily let me see if there is a problem with asus drivers, ie exposing incorrect pins to these applications. Thanks for the discussion.

[Mercury_22]

Cool, well if you get a chance, let me know what ffdshow says its outputting when you use it. Until you see visually that its outputting to, side or back, you can't be sure your soundcard isn't rerouting / upmixing so that you hear from side rather than rear. This is the case with me, xonar reroutes back output from these applications to the side channels (upmixes rather) so it sounds correct during sound tests, until I listen carefully and can hear bleeding of channels caused by the upmixing.

I will try to find software that can easily let me see if there is a problem with asus drivers, ie exposing incorrect pins to these applications. Thanks for the discussion.

No need for FFDShow in the "Enable custom channel mapping" in MPC without changing anything I can see that the 5.1 test files are using the Back channels but i can hear the sound from my side output

[mark0077]

Well there you go, mpc-hc should be sending to your sides, not your back channels. Its getting it wrong in your case. Either both of our drivers are buggy, or mpc-hc can't auto detect this and should have the option, not just in the mixer as most users won't be going in there playing with custom channel mappings.

Its irrelevant that you can hear output on your sides, your blessed that your drivers are doing this for you automatically, and I assume doing a good job of it. My drivers do it also but make a mess of it, and give no way to disable the upmixing, so I hear channels bleeding into one another because of this attempt to upmix the back output from mpc-hc, to my side channels. (By right, the drivers should take what they get and spit it out, in your case your card is taking back inputs, and sending it to the sides which I feel is incorrect anyways.... thats another days work ;) )

In both of our cases mpc-hc isn't correctly sending to the side channels that is defined in our drivers and windows mixer. In another persons machine they might not have the luxury of what our drivers do, and mpc-hc sending to the back might mean they hear nothing from their side channels.

Do you see what I mean now? I hope the visual representation of audio going to the back rather than rear in your mpc channel mixer shows you what I have been speaking about.

From this discussion, I am assuming that many people don't notice this problem due to their drivers doing some sort of channel mapping themselves / or upmixing which is not correct, mpc-hc should send to the correct channels in the first place, and it isn't, simple as that.

[Mercury_22]

Well there you go, mpc-hc should be sending to your sides, not your back channels. Its irrelevant that you can hear output on your sides, your blessed that your drivers are doing this for you automatically, and I assume doing a good job of it. My drivers do it also but make a mess of it, and give no way to disable the upmixing, so I hear channels bleeding into one another because of this attempt to upmix the backs, to my side channels.

In both of our cases mpc-hc isn't correctly sending to the sides. In another persons machine they might not have the luxury of what our drivers do, and mpc-hc sending to the back might mean they hear nothing from their side channels.

Do you see what I mean now? I hope the visual representation of audio going to the back rather than rear in your mpc channel mixer shows you what I have been speaking about.

Yes but this is because my drivers are following the Dolby recommendation and exposing the side channels for the surround in a 5.1 setup but as you can find in the DTS recommendation
DTS-HD is capable of 7.1 channels of sound, totally immersing you in movies and music. (Remember, a typical 5.1-channel system consists of two front and two rear speakers, a center-channel speaker, and a subwoofer / bass management channel, which is the ".1") By using two additional channels — for "side surround" speakers at your left and right — sound can be more accurately placed in your listening room. This means that special effects pans, like jet-fighter flyovers or arrows whizzing past you, will be more dramatic and life like. (http://www.dts.com/DTS_Audio_Formats/DTS-HD_Master_Audio.aspx)
or in
The reason for not distinguishing between the back-speaker and side-speaker configurations in either case is that home users tend not to distinguish between these speaker positions—the placement of furniture in the room might be the primary factor in determining whether a pair of speakers ends up beside or behind the listener. Forcing users to recognize the subtle differences between these alternate configurations would complicate the user interface for little benefit. (http://download.microsoft.com/download/9/c/5/9c5b2167-8017-4bae-9fde-d599bac8184a/PinConfig.doc)
or
If a
>> system vendor has set the pin config values of the integrated HD
>> Audio device to indicate that the 5.1 device uses side speakers
>> then we expose that to the OS when it asks the driver through the
>> channel config property request but if the system vendor uses the
>> pin config sequence values in the multi-channel device association
>> to indicate that the 5.1 system has rear speakers the HD Audio
>> class driver will expose that to the OS as the channel mask for
>> that device instead. (http://www.freelists.org/post/wdmaudiodev/Vista-51-speaker-mode-question,7) MPC-HC it's correct.

My conclusion is that only Dolby is using side and anyone who is using 5.1 speakers (with a 5.1 speaker config in windows) should plug the surround speaker in the output exposed by his driver

[mark0077]

If people, even dolby or dts can't agree, I don't think you or anyone can say mpc-hc is correct...... It outputs to BACK in both of our cases, so mpc is WRONG!!!! I personally have much more dolby content than dts, and like having speakers set to the side, but the software should handle this mess by detecting what the drivers decision is.

My conclusion is that people shouldn't have to manually do anything, that mpc-hc should send surround where the drivers expose, in our case our soundcards should expose the side. mpc-hc sends to the back (if you use ffdshow you will see input and output all the way shows back).... which is wrong, plain and simple.. What your driver does after that is its own business, but the fact your card sends to the sides in this case isn't enough, the software should send to the right place in the first place.

Sending to back is fine for you, your card sends this to side itself I assume, for others this might not be the case. If the application sends to the correct place originally, then the drivers wouldn't have to do this as an after process.

Conclusion: I agree with you, if using 5.1 speakers, connect your surround speakers to whatever is exposed by your drivers, which in my and your case, this is the sides. BUT mpc-hc sending to back is still wrong, it does send to back and this is not correct for our setups, simple as that like. It doesn't auto detect what is exposed by the driver correctly!!!!!!!! but depending your driver this may or may not have a negative impact. The driver may compensate / upmix from back to side channel or vice versa.

Any mpc-hc developers want to inform us if its mixer tries to auto-detect where to send surround channels? Until then I can only assume it either does try and fails for both my and your drivers, or doesn't try at all in which case we need a more visible option for choosing between side and rear.

Mercury: As an expirement, you could try manually telling mpc-hc (what it should do automatically?) to output to side channels rather than back, and see if you still hear 5.1 surround tests from your side channels.

If you still hear audio from sides, then this confirms your soundcard is taking back from mpc-hc and magically mapping it to the sides (others arn't so fortunate)
If you don't hear audio from sides, I assume your back / side physical connections are swapped.

Either way mpc-hc is 100% wrong in not outputting to side channels in both of our cases.

[Mercury_22]

If people, even dolby or dts can't agree, I don't think you or anyone can say mpc-hc is correct...... It outputs to BACK in both of our cases, so mpc is WRONG!!!! I personally have much more dolby content than dts, and like having speakers set to the side, but the software should handle this mess by detecting what the drivers decision is.

My conclusion is that people shouldn't have to manually do anything, that mpc-hc should send surround where the drivers expose, in our case our soundcards should expose the side. mpc-hc sends to the back (if you use ffdshow you will see input and output all the way shows back).... which is wrong, plain and simple.. What your driver does after that is its own business, but the fact your card sends to the sides in this case isn't enough, the software should send to the right place in the first place.

Sending to back is fine for you, your card sends this to side itself I assume, for others this might not be the case. If the application sends to the correct place originally, then the drivers wouldn't have to do this as an after process.

Conclusion: I agree with you, if using 5.1 speakers, connect your surround speakers to whatever is exposed by your drivers, which in my and your case, this is the sides. BUT mpc-hc sending to back is still wrong, it does send to back and this is not correct for our setups, simple as that like. It doesn't auto detect what is exposed by the driver correctly!!!!!!!! but depending your driver this may or may not have a negative impact. The driver may compensate / upmix from back to side channel or vice versa.

Any mpc-hc developers want to inform us if its mixer tries to auto-detect where to send surround channels? Until then I can only assume it either does try and fails for both my and your drivers, or doesn't try at all in which case we need a more visible option for choosing between side and rear.

Mercury: As an expirement, you could try manually telling mpc-hc (what it should do automatically?) to output to side channels rather than back, and see if you still hear 5.1 surround tests from your side channels.

If you still hear audio from sides, then this confirms your soundcard is taking back from mpc-hc and magically mapping it to the sides (others arn't so fortunate)
If you don't hear audio from sides, I assume your back / side physical connections are swapped.

Either way mpc-hc is 100% wrong in not outputting to side channels in both of our cases.

In a 5.1 config remapping to side the surround channels in mpc-ha it's also working aka i hear sound

[mark0077]

Then the reason you are not having problems is your drivers are sending back input to your sides. For me my driver don't do a great job. Sitting near side right during your truehd test I can faintly hear side left. A side effect of my own drivers attempt to send back from mpc to my sides.

If I send mpc output manually to sides I Hear output perfectly. Do you now agree mpc is auto detecting incorrectly, and should not be sending to back in our case?

Temporarily, until this is all sorted / fixed, if I were you I would use custom channel mapping and manually output to sides, instead of relying on your drivers to do a good job. Maybe they do a good job but I can say it would be driver dependent, my Xonar drivers do a horrible job of mapping / mixing the back output from mpc-hc to the sides. So I don't recommend just letting mpc-hc send back output until this is fixed.

[Mercury_22]

Then the reason you are not having problems is your drivers are sending back input to your sides. For me my driver don't do a great job. Sitting near side right during your truehd test I can faintly hear side left. A side effect of my own drivers attempt to send back from mpc to my sides.

If I send mpc output manually to sides I Hear output perfectly. Do you now agree mpc is auto detecting incorrectly, and should not be sending to back in our case?

Temporarily, until this is all sorted / fixed, if I were you I would use custom channel mapping and manually output to sides, instead of relying on your drivers to do a good job. Maybe they do a good job but I can say it would be driver dependent, my Xonar drivers do a horrible job of mapping / mixing the back output from mpc-hc to the sides. So I don't recommend just letting mpc-hc send back output until this is fixed.

Do you understand that this is ONLY when I reduce my speakers config to 5.1 ? if I use my full 7.1 speaker the surround it's out on back ! Do you use the 7.1 config or the 5.1 ?

So in a 5.1 setup all apps TMT POWERDVD WINDVD and MPC-HC are sending the surround channels where the drivers are telling them side or back ! so I don't see any problem !

Also the channels I or you see in MPC-HC's "Enable custom channel mapping " are INPUT channels which results that MPC-HC it's receiving surround back and output to the back or side depending which pin are the drivers exposing for a 5.1 config ! which is also correct.

[mark0077]

Do you understand that this is ONLY when I reduce my speakers config to 5.1 ? if I use my full 7.1 speaker the surround it's out on back ! Do you use the 7.1 config or the 5.1 ?

So in a 5.1 setup all apps TMT POWERDVD WINDVD and MPC-HC are sending the surround channels where the drivers are telling them side or back ! so I don't see any problem !

Also the channels I or you see in MPC-HC's "Enable custom channel mapping " are INPUT channels which results that MPC-HC it's receiving surround back and output to the back or side depending which pin are the drivers exposing for a 5.1 config ! which is also correct.

What you say doesn't make sense. I have my card setup to use 5.1 yes. When you set yours to 5.1 as you say is readin what drivers expose. In your case they exposed back but you hear audio from sides. Don't you see that's not right lol

even more confusing and incorrect is that your 5.1 surround goes to sides in 5.1 and back in 7.1. config

[Mercury_22]

What you say doesn't make sense. I have my card setup to use 5.1 yes. When you set yours to 5.1 as you say is readin what drivers expose. In your case they exposed back but you hear audio from sides. Don't you see that's not right lol

even more confusing and incorrect is that your 5.1 surround goes to sides in 5.1 and back in 7.1. config

No in my case 5.1 expose surround to the side too

Our cards are using the same pins for 5.1 and for 7.1 from what I understand

[mark0077]

That contradicts the last post where you saId mpcs mixer sends surround to your backs. As I said this is the same for me but my card mixes this so I hear it on sides

Can you see these apps are visually showing us they are not reading the exposed pins but I know 100% that I and probably you might not realise because our cards are still sending audio to our sides which is masking the problem for others. (I don't get the original channels output to sides though. You might but everyone doesn't). These exposed pins sent being read correctly at all. I see this visually and hear it (just about) audibly.

Anyone know one f the developers that I can speak to regarding this.

[Mercury_22]

That contradicts the last post where you saId mpcs mixer sends surround to your backs. As I said this is the same for me but my card mixes this so I hear it on sides

Anyone know one f the developers that I can speak to regarding this.
In a 5.1 config no mater what I choose for the surround channels side or back they are send to the only available option = ActiveSpeakerPositions (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms791058.aspx) as it suppose to !
Which in my 5.1 config is side
Let's recap in your case in a 5.1 config you're saying that your drivers are exposing side ( in the ActiveSpeakerPosition ) but MPC-HC it's sending to the back (too) aka you're hearing sound from side and from the back ?

[mark0077]

So the whole idea of a GUI / mixer goes out the window. Either that or mpcs GUI isn't correctly displaying what it's reading based on the structure in your link. You must at least see that.

If mpc reads that structure you link to then in your case it's obviously not parsing it correctly as t visually shows u outputting to the choice read by the structure. Ie your stricture should contain side left and right side as the choice but even on your machine you admit mpc shows visually back l and r. Not concerned? I Am because I know this is wrong and has a negative effect.

Not gonna keep repeating this. It's obviously wrong.

EDIT: no I don't have back channels. Mpc reads back instead of side from this structure you talk about. It has negatve effects for me but obviously not for you. My card thinks it's getting input for back channels which it knows I don't have so does it's best to mix out to my sides. This leads to channel bleeding. Hard to notice but my card a only doing it's best to make sure I hear those back outputs from mpc. Negative effect is it doesn't perfectly replicate the back inputs it gets to my sides. I believe ur card is also Reading back from mpc in 5.1 mode and is sendng to your side so you think all s perfect. Doesn't mean mpc isn't still at fault as it just is lol

I imagine the reason you might no hear channel bleedng s the xonar might have a more advanced way of mapping back input to side output. It's not just doing a channel copy which I imagne your getting. Normally this is a great idea but in this case with these apps sending to back instead of side this more advanced mapping of back to side is no good.

[Mercury_22]

So the whole idea of a GUI / mixer goes out the window. Either that or mpcs GUI isn't correctly displaying what it's reading based on the structure in your link. You must at least see that.

If mpc reads that structure you link to then in your case it's obviously not parsing it correctly as t visually shows u outputting to the choice read by the structure. Ie your stricture should contain side left and right side as the choice but even on your machine you admit mpc shows visually back l and r. Not concerned? I Am because I know this is wrong and has a negative effect.

Not gonna keep repeating this. It's obviously wrong.

EDIT: no I don't have back channels. Mpc reads back instead of side from this structure you talk about. It has negatve effects for me but obviously not for you. My card thinks it's getting input for back channels which it knows I don't have so does it's best to mix out to my sides. This leads to channel bleeding. Hard to notice but my card a only doing it's best to make sure I hear those back outputs from mpc. Negative effect is it doesn't perfectly replicate the back inputs it gets to my sides. I believe ur card is also Reading back from mpc in 5.1 mode and is sendng to your side so you think all s perfect. Doesn't mean mpc isn't still at fault as it just is lol

So what I understand is that when you select a 5.1 config in windows's speaker setup you still can hear sound from the back output too (in addition to the side out) although in the setup you have side speakers. Correct ?
Is this happening only with MPC-HC (and FFDShow) ?

[mark0077]

So what I understand is that when you select a 5.1 config in windows's speaker setup you still can hear sound from the back output too (in addition to the side out) although in the setup you have side speakers. Correct ?
Is this happening only with MPC-HC (and FFDShow) ?

I only have 5.1 speakers but obv a 7.1 soundcard. When mpc incorrectly and visually sends output to back channels my soundcard does some fancy upmixing to my side channels giving negative effects.

So my proposal is to ask mpc developer why mpc mixer doesn't visually indicate that it detects the correct surround outputs for our config from the structure you linked to. because I believe this is the reason for my problem and I knOw it will effect others that don't have a card that directly maps back to side like in your case when you set your card to 5.1 where the problem is not noticible. Lucky you lol

Manually setting mpc or ffdshow, to output to sides rather than their default (or misread soundcard channel data if thats the case) fixes the problem immediately. Anyone know who would be responsible for this piece of mpc-hc's development, ie the mixer, or the detection of soundcard channel data.

[Mercury_22]

I only have 5.1 speakers but obv a 7.1 soundcard. When mpc incorrectly and visually sends output to back channels my soundcard does some fancy upmixing to my side channels giving negative effects.

So my proposal is to ask mpc developer why mpc mixer doesn't visually indicate that it detects the correct surround outputs for our config from the structure you linked to. because I believe this is the reason for my problem and I knOw it will effect others that don't have a card that directly maps back to side like in your case when you set your card to 5.1 where the problem is not noticible. Lucky you lol

Manually setting mpc or ffdshow, to output to sides rather than their default (or misread soundcard channel data if thats the case) fixes the problem immediately. Anyone know who would be responsible for this piece of mpc-hc's development, ie the mixer, or the detection of soundcard channel data.

Yes but how did you set the speaker config in Control panel -> Sound -> Configure 5.1 Surround or 7.1 Surround ?

[mark0077]

Yes, but the xonar audio drivers sync up with windows control panel so I have both set to 5.1 surround. Of course my drivers know when it gets the back channel output from mpc-hc, or ffdshow, or whatever it is, that I don't have back channels, so it goes ahead and does its fancy upmixing so I do hear output on my sides, but not perfectly as I said, I get some bleeding because of the upmixing algorithm used.

When mpc-hc or ffdshow says its outputting to back channels, thats exactly what they do, output to back channels. Its upto your card how it interprets this. I think the xonar is doing a better job than the realtek here to be honest, ie not just directly mapping the back to the sides, its upmixing correctly.

Unfortunately the side effect of course is the channel bleeding, and you not noticing the problem. If your drivers get sent audio explicitly set for back, why should they ever just blindly send that to your side channels anyways. This is what mpc-hc and ffdshow are doing in both of our cases, just sending to our backs when in 5.1 config.

[flanger216]

I used a Xonar in a 5.1 setup with MPC for nearly a year, and I gotta say, I just never had any of the problems you're talking about.

For one thing, the Xonar drivers and the Windows audio panel do not sync up, and that's by design; in fact, the only way to get the card's Pro Logic II stereo upmixer engaged is to set the Windows panel to stereo and your Xonar panel to 5.1 or 7.1 . And the Xonar doesn't do 'fancy upmixing' by default - it does a very simple channel replication that couldn't possibly result in crosstalk artifacts. Of course, you can opt to use its Pro Logic II processing, but again, you'd have to have the Windows panel set to 5.1 and the Xonar panel set to 7.1 for that to be affecting you in this case.

This channel bleed stuff is bizarre, though. I just can't imagine what would be causing it, unless Asus managed to FUBAR their drivers since I last used them (wouldn't put it past them). You're going to hate me for asking this, but are you sure you don't have the '7.1 virtual speaker' option ticked in your Xonar panel? Because that would certainly cause crosstalk...

[mark0077]

Nah with older vista drivers i had no syncing of xonar control panel with windows but new ones and windows 7 ones they do sync up. I'm in hifi mode with gx disabled, so no virtual speaker or anything fancy.

I think the xonar is working as it should. Imagne if I had a center back output coming from an application even though I don't have a physical center back channel. The xonar would and should mix this into my available surround channels so that that channel isn't completely lost in subspace. Not a direct channel copy of course.

This is why when mpc sends me back channel data. With newer drivers this is nicely mixed t sides. Not just direct channel copies but a nice upmix. It's so clear to me what's happening and what the possible solutions are. Just hoping some mpc devs do also.

OK from my understanding the xonar should give me an option on what to do in this situation, ie output nothing, or upmix to my available speakers. In any case its probably doing a good job seeing that mpc and ffdshow incorrectly and explicitly seem to be sending it data for back channels. Looking forward to input from developers on this auto detection of back versus rear, and why for my xonar 1.3 deluxe and Mercurys card both output to back (visually in mixers), when we actually have side channels.

Simple fact, ffdshow and mpc are both sending data incorrectly to the back channels (visually and digitally) and this needs to be addressed if its meant to be an automated process dependent on drivers etc.

[THX-UltraII]

A lot of people talk about PDVD not beeing good software. What are the things that PDVD can t do/lacks in that TMT3 or MPC-HC can?

[tiny]

Problem:
WVC1 in bluray m2ts files plays back at very low framerate using internal splitter.

Happens with ffdshow using wmv9 or libavcodec. CPU is below 50%.

Videos play smoothly using Haali's splitter, but that doesnt give descriptions for video/audio/subtitle tracks.

I can confirm this. One way to solve the problem is to use EVR Custom as output and enable "frame time correction" (keyboard shortcut "c").

However, that presents another problem for me. EVR Custom does not give me hardware acceleration on Windows XP (with WMVideo Decoder DMO, my 9400GT does not support VC-1 vld).

I think there are two possible solutions:

1. modify the internal splitter so that it sets the correct framerate

2. add "frame time correction" to VMR9

I hope either of those two is possible because that would finally give me hardware accelerated playback of VC-1 blu-rays on Windows XP with all of the features the internal splitter gives, such as the above mentioned audio/subtitle descriptions and seamless playback.

[Matching_Mole]

I can confirm this. One way to solve the problem is to use EVR Custom as output and enable "frame time correction" (keyboard shortcut "c").

However, that presents another problem for me. EVR Custom does not give me hardware acceleration on Windows XP (with WMVideo Decoder DMO, my 9400GT does not support VC-1 vld).

I think there are two possible solutions:

1. modify the internal splitter so that it sets the correct framerate

2. add "frame time correction" to VMR9

I hope either of those two is possible because that would finally give me hardware accelerated playback of VC-1 blu-rays on Windows XP with all of the features the internal splitter gives, such as the above mentioned audio/subtitle descriptions and seamless playback.

I have the same issue here and I think also the issue coming from the m2ts internal splitter. So it will be great if the issue can be fixed.

[73ChargerFan]

I have the same issue here and I think also the issue coming from the m2ts internal splitter. So it will be great if the issue can be fixed.
+1
remuxing m2ts->mkv solved the problem for me, so I also think it is a splitter glitch. Win7-64U.

[DrNein]

Also from DTS
7.1 channels, for more intense movies and music

DTS-HD is capable of 7.1 channels of sound, totally immersing you in movies and music. (Remember, a typical 5.1-channel system consists of two front and two rear speakers, a center-channel speaker, and a subwoofer / bass management channel, which is the ".1") By using two additional channels — for "side surround" speakers at your left and right — sound can be more accurately placed in your listening room. This means that special effects pans, like jet-fighter flyovers or arrows whizzing past you, will be more dramatic and life like. (http://www.dts.com/DTS_Audio_Formats/DTS-HD_Master_Audio.aspx)

That's weird because in their diagrams for 5.1 are shown Left Surround and Right Surround being at the sides as expected but for 7.1, Left Surround Side and Right Surround Side appear augmented by Left Surround Rear and Right Surround Rear. If the text above is correct then for 7.1 the side mapping would be switched to rear rather than simply adding the rear and the additional sound would then be side.

I have always had the understanding that the rear surround AKA back speakers were the additions in a 7.1 configuration (from either Dolby or DTS).

[Mercury_22]

That's weird because in their diagrams for 5.1 are shown Left Surround and Right Surround being at the sides as expected but for 7.1, Left Surround Side and Right Surround Side appear augmented by Left Surround Rear and Right Surround Rear. If the text above is correct then for 7.1 the side mapping would be switched to rear rather than simply adding the rear and the additional sound would then be side.

I have always had the understanding that the rear surround AKA back speakers were the additions in a 7.1 configuration (from either Dolby or DTS).

Why wouldn't be correct ?

If that it's not enough you can check other DTS resources like DTS-HD Brochure (http://www.dts.com/~/media/D84CFDAD4E534E32920F80A5A3B7D4CC.ashx) ...The two most popular speaker placement in consumer’s homes are 5.1 plus two additional speakers at the left and right side positions (90 degrees from the listener) or the left and right rear surround
positions (120 degrees). .... or DTS-HD White Paper (http://www.dts.com/~/media/B962F033C9254AD4B62ECFC6293C9E86.ashx) ...With 7.1 channels of sound, DTS-HD Master Audio immerses the listener in sound and creates a “you are there”
listening experience. Using additional left and right side surround channels, it goes far beyond traditional surround
sound to create an amazingly realistic and dynamic sound environment that radiates near perfect sound coverage
throughout the listening room....
that you can find on the same DTS page (http://www.dts.com/DTS_Audio_Formats/DTS-HD_Master_Audio.aspx) with my previous text

So yes the additional surround channels for the 7.1 are on the side and the 5.1 surround channels are on rear

P.S. This is my LAST comment on this matter !

Test 5.1 AC3 (Dolby Digital) (http://www.tfm.ro/win32-projects/test-avi-ac3/)
Test 5.1 Dolby TrueHD (http://sharebee.com/6098e006)
Test 7.1 E-AC3 (Dolby Digital Plus) (http://sharebee.com/69772daa)
Test 7.1 Dolby TrueHD (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7P9P81CW)
Test 7.1 DTS-HD HR (http://sharebee.com/abf92989)
Test 7.1 LPCM (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0HM2JCEP)

[mark0077]

Yep those 5.1 tests arn't played correctly on Xonar HDAV Deluxe, as I already said, mpc and ffdshow explicitly output to back, not sides...... I challenge anyone to find a soundcard that will make mpc-hc or ffdshow explicitly output to sides (or anything other than back even), which would show at least that mpc doesnt just blindly output to back all the time, that it smartly detects where to send surround output based on what the sound cards drivers want.

I havn't seen anyone yet that can show mpc-hc or ffdshow visually outputting to the sides. They always choose back by default as far as I can see, this is where the problem lies. Again this is fine if your soundcard remaps the back to the sides, but unfortunately not all soundcards will do this, some will "smartly" upmix these back channels to sides if sides is where surround exists, and this upmixing isn't as nice as pure channel remaps in this weird situation.

So 5.1 tests you give above fail in cards with this upmixing ability, ie those that don't just do a channel remap like your soundcard. These tests will show this upmixing function of these soundcards (what sounds like left bleeding into right channel and vice versa), rather than whats intended, pure channels being sent to the right place in the first place.

EDIT: Looking at the link you provided (given below) regarding asking the os / driver is a mode supported, maybe mpc-hc is asking the driver first is 5.1 supported using "Back", and of course in a 7.1 soundcard, that mode is always going to be supported, regardless of whether the user or drivers intend the sides or back to be used in a 5.1 config. Read Mikes last entry in the following page. My guess is your soundcard might be saying this mode isn't supported and mpc-hc is therefore choosing side internally but not on its gui, OR your soundcard is saying this mode is supported and mapping channels to side itself.
http://www.freelists.org/post/wdmaudiodev/Vista-51-speaker-mode-question,7

Looking at the following pin config document, scrolling down to the 5.1 section, you can see the two different configurations that are possible, obviously one using side (Sequence: (0,1,4)), one using back output (Sequence: (0,1,2)). Still unsure how mpc decides to choose back versus sides. Any devs wanna enlighten us :D
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/audio/PinConfig.mspx

I am obviously just guessing, as I havn't heard from any of the mpc developers on this.

[amango]

I have troubles with changing subtitles on some MKV-files within MPC Cinema.

If you have a MKV with multiple subtitle tracks that also have different formats (like track 1: SRT, track 2: IDX) the subtitles of the second track are not displayed anymore. That don't happen if I use the older DirectVobSub-Filter. Mediaportal also uses the MPC-HC subtitle engine, so the same bug happens within Mediaportal. I can reproduce that behaviour in both programs - changing to DirectVobSub helps but I loose DXVA with it.

[Andy o]

Why wouldn't be correct ?

If that it's not enough you can check other DTS resources like DTS-HD Brochure (http://www.dts.com/~/media/D84CFDAD4E534E32920F80A5A3B7D4CC.ashx) or DTS-HD White Paper (http://www.dts.com/~/media/B962F033C9254AD4B62ECFC6293C9E86.ashx)
that you can find on the same DTS page (http://www.dts.com/DTS_Audio_Formats/DTS-HD_Master_Audio.aspx) with my previous text

So yes the additional surround channels for the 7.1 are on the side and the 5.1 surround channels are on rear

P.S. This is my LAST comment on this matter !

Test 5.1 AC3 (Dolby Digital) (http://www.tfm.ro/win32-projects/test-avi-ac3/)
Test 5.1 Dolby TrueHD (http://sharebee.com/6098e006)
Test 7.1 E-AC3 (Dolby Digital Plus) (http://sharebee.com/69772daa)
Test 7.1 Dolby TrueHD (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7P9P81CW)
Test 7.1 DTS-HD HR (http://sharebee.com/abf92989)
Test 7.1 LPCM (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0HM2JCEP)
The problem is that it seems only DTS is saying this, and it's inconsistent sometimes. Everyone else that I've seen including every AVR manufacturer, Dolby and THX, treats the back surrounds in 7.1 as the extra channels. Not to mention that DTS-ES's extra channel is also the rear one, and it would be stupid for them to map that channel to the sides instead of the rears on a 7.1 system.

[Andy o]

Yep those 5.1 tests arn't played correctly on Xonar HDAV Deluxe, as I already said, mpc and ffdshow explicitly output to back, not sides......I'm not sure if you read my previous message, but this doesn't only happen with MPC-HC and ffdshow. PowerDVD and TMT also do, as all the other players I've tried including foobar2000.

It's the fault of Windows and/or the drivers. As I understand, the program when it sends a 5.1 stream out to the Windows mixer, it doesn't specify back or side, it just specifies "surround" channel. Then Windows or the driver takes care of outputting it from the back channels, if you have Windows set to 7.1. If you have Windows set to 5.1, they will come out from the sides if you have 7.1 speakers.

If you set the program to output a 5.1 source in a 7.1 stream with 2 back surround channels silent, like PowerDVD 8 does when you set it to "8 speakers" or like TMT did for me only with TrueHD sources, then you won't have that problem. I can make foobar2000 do that, but it's a very inelegant and annoying solution.

[mark0077]

Cheers Andy. So if we are sure there is a problem outside of these apps, how can we narrow it down to either being drivers or windows. I want to get this into a bug report of some form.

But when you say you don't think that the apps we talk about don't specify back or side, I don't believe this is true, as both mpc-hc and ffdshow explicitly say back or side in their mixers. Even if the ffdshow mixer isn't used at all, ie completely unchecked, it still says back or side output in its "Info & CPU" section, which to me indicates its not outtputting to "surround" at all, therefore not dependent on good driver info..... There is no way for me anyways, with any configuration of xonar control panel / windows speakers settings, to have these apps give me output correctly to the sides.

The only way I get proper surround channels going to my sides is explicitly telling mpc or ffdshow, to output to the side channels through their mixers. Otherwise I get this channel upmixing effect.

Obviously more recent pc games are not relying upon windows / drivers to choose side versus back. GTA 4 gives the option to output surround to sides or back. Sides being the default for me anyways.

If I set everything to 7.1, windows cp, xonar control panel, ffdshow output etc, then during 5.1 (because I only have 5.1 speakers) I don't hear any surround output at all. This is because, again ffdshow and mpc send surround to back, but in this case the xonar drivers think I have back so they just send it there. In all 5.1 mode, when sent back channel data, the xonar drivers try to upmix this to the sides. All of this is expected.

EDIT: If I set xonar to assume input of 8 channels, and use output of 5.1 speakers, it automatically does the mapping from back to sides for me. But this shouldn't be necessary. Setting it to assume input of 5.1 channels, and output of 5.1 channels should work correctly but of course it won't in the current versions, because mpc and ffdshow seem to explicitly send surround to backs.

[Andy o]

Well the only thing that occurs to me to test is to check different drivers and devices. Unfortunately it's been a while for me since I've used anything other than the ATI HDMI device in my HTPC. Your experience seems to be similar to mine though. If someone else is using another device that behaves differently, then it might be drivers. The problem is that this is not the only flavor of this side/back surround issue. Some drivers like Nvidia confuse the matters further by swapping them.

I'm thinking of just going back to regular 5.1. This speaker number race is getting out of hand anyway. DPLIIz?

By the way, I fix my issues with ReClock or WASAPI exclusive. Those can set your channels in Windows automatically according to the source. Thing is I don't think they work with the Xonar very well, cause the Xonar doesn't let them bypass its control panel settings.

What happens when you set Windows to 5.1 output, and the Xonar CP to 5.1 input and 7.1 output? Where do you hear the surrounds?

[Fragbert]

xvidvideo.ru appears down and out indefinitely! :( Is there another website that hosts the latest nightly builds of mpc-hc x86 and x64?

[Spec-Chum]

1301

32-bit (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=f23b64e279fec79ea0f2f20c509059d93bed2ff06fd41ccc947708e37b913e74)
64-bit (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=f23b64e279fec79ea0f2f20c509059d9d8060856ca4d2a3a5be6ba49b5870170)

[alexins]

xvidvideo.ru appears down and out indefinitely! :( Is there another website that hosts the latest nightly builds of mpc-hc x86 and x64?
My site is often not available because of poor quality work of my ISP (http://www.smile-net.ru/) :mad:

Now I renew software on the server. The site will be accessible through the pair of days.