Auto Gordian Knot: current version 2.55

[Tuning]

Originally posted by len0x
Just was told that quality based encoding is not there anymore!!! :(
Very sad, especially in the light of me spending some time implementing it...

len0x, is that possible to select different quantizer according to quality entered in GUI and also by the equation used. As quantizer mode is now available in form of zones then setting quant from zone 1 start will be same as encoding in corresponding quality. or do need max and min quants ?. Then it would impossible as zones uses constant quant for the defined range.

Btw, there is one more option called "weight" in zones. Can it be use similarly in the way quantizer mode (Hence quality mode) is used.

Just a thought.....:)

[len0x]

Originally posted by Catatonic
Will VDubMod 1.5.10.1 build 2389 be back in AutoGK .8?

not likely. ppl still have issues with it.

[len0x]

Originally posted by Tuning
len0x, is that possible to select different quantizer according to quality entered in GUI and also by the equation used. As quantizer mode is now available in form of zones then setting quant from zone 1 start will be same as encoding in corresponding quality. or do need max and min quants ?. Then it would impossible as zones uses constant quant for the defined range.


afaik in 1.0 you can still use quant based encoding using zone config indeed. but quant only can be an integer which limits quality range a lot. (quality based encoding was the same as quant based but instead of 1 fixed quant there are 2 used: n, n+1, which allows you to hit target percentage very accurate).

[Tuning]

Originally posted by len0x
..quality based encoding was the same as quant based but instead of 1 fixed quant there are 2 used: n, n+1, which allows you to hit target percentage very accurate..

This means a max & min is required isn't it?
But @ zones the fixed quant is maintained throught the range. So if equation can only changed according to single fixed quant then there is possibility of quality mode.

btw, in zones there is another mode called weight, can this be used?. (Actually I cannot understand what is its purpose, reading all these threads.:( )

[len0x]

Originally posted by Tuning
This means a max & min is required isn't it?
But @ zones the fixed quant is maintained throught the range. So if equation can only changed according to single fixed quant then there is possibility of quality mode.


not really - min and max doesn't give us anything. How do you know what percentage of time min amd max should be used? without clean quality figure codec cannot maintain the output size properly, i.e. if quality is 50% then it should give you twice as small file as with 100%...

Originally posted by Tuning

btw, in zones there is another mode called weight, can this be used?. (Actually I cannot understand what is its purpose, reading all these threads.:( )

I've no idea - I don't even have 1.0 installed yet...

[Tuning]

Now I get what do you mean. But as new Xvid does not allow 2 values, can the same method used for divx be used.? (Sorry len0x, if this is a dumb idea)
From previous page:No - 22
Originally posted by len0x
you don't want to do that as it is equivalent of ~44% of quality...
the formula is for divx is quant=200/percentage

I think similarly an equation to XviD relating single quant and quality percentage can be made.(only applicable to XviD 1.0)
As in the case of DivX, there are no n,n+1 quant value. Than how the target percentage is achieved ?

[len0x]

Originally posted by Tuning

I think similarly an equation to XviD relating single quant and quality percentage can be made.(only applicable to XviD 1.0)
As in the case of DivX, there are no n,n+1 quant value. Than how the target percentage is achieved ?

well, for divx you actually have quant in the form of x.x so that it has a decimal point and therefore more accurate calculation is possible...

[Tuning]

Thanks for the info len0x, so without accuracy quality mode can be implemented.

[jonny]

In XviD 1.0 the quant is in the form: x.xx
This gives more freedom compared to the oldest "quantizer" & "quality based" modes.

@Tuning:
To better understand things (from XviD FAQ (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16935)):

13. What does the quality mode do?

The quality mode chooses an "average quantizer" for the entire video. It is similar to setting a quantizer in the "1-pass - quantizer" mode, though the quality mode lets you have a quantizer of say 4.5. In the case of 4.5, the 1st frame would be encoded with 4, the second with 5, the third with 4, the fourth with 5, etc., so that the "average" quantizer at the end of the video will be 4.5. The equation that gives you the "average quantizer" is:

((MaxQuant-MinQuant)/100 * (100-quality)) + MinQuant

Plus:
MaxQuant = 31
MinQuant = 2

So, before XviD 1.0, the quality mode % was a "simple slider", where:

100% equal quant=2
0% equal quant=31
all the others values gets calculated in a "linear way" (i don't know the correct english terms, but i hope you get the meaning).

Example:
quality=100% equal quant=2
quality=99% equal quant=2.29
quality=98% equal quant=2.58
quality=97% equal quant=2.87
quality=96% equal quant=3.16
quality=95% equal quant=3.45
quality=94% equal quant=3.74
quality=93% equal quant=4.03
quality=92% equal quant=4.32
quality=91% equal quant=4.61
quality=90% equal quant=4.9

As you can see, before XviD 1.0, there was no way to set accurately the average quantizer.

[len0x]

Originally posted by jonny

As you can see, before XviD 1.0, there was no way to set accurately the average quantizer.

Not quite true. you can do it like this:

- set min and max quant as integers around average quant. then set quality as decimal value of average quant multiplied by 100. So this will give you up to 1/100 accuracy.

This is sort of what i'm doing in AutoGK...

*Edit* moreover - percentage/quant ration is a bit misleading for XviD anyway. I expect quality be representation of target size, but in your calculations you see that there is no way you can make that assumption.

[jonny]

- set min and max quant as integers around average quant. then set quality as decimal value of average quant multiplied by 100. So this will give you up to 1/100 accuracy.

Are min & max quant used in quality based mode? (this seems to contraddict the explanation in the FAQ)

set quality as decimal value of average quant multiplied by 100

I don't understand this, i assume you mean calculating the quality from this:
average quant = ((MaxQuant-MinQuant)/100 * (100-quality)) + MinQuant

...
It works?


*Edit* moreover - percentage/quant ration is a bit misleading for XviD anyway. I expect quality be representation of target size, but in your calculations you see that there is no way you can make that assumption.

I agree. It's funny, i was going to edit my previous message to write something similar :) (before you have replyed)
The quality mode before XviD 1.0 was quite confusing, people was expecting "something magic" when setting the quality value (but it is really less sofisticated that one would expect).

[len0x]

Originally posted by jonny
Are min & max quant used in quality based mode? (this seems to contraddict the explanation in the FAQ)

I don't understand this, i assume you mean calculating the quality from this:
average quant = ((MaxQuant-MinQuant)/100 * (100-quality)) + MinQuant


min and max quant does work in quality mode!

Say you have average quant which you get from (200/ target quality) in the form of a.bb (where bb are decimal integers) then you set:

min quant = floor(a.bb)
max quant = ceil(a.bb)
xvid quality = 100 - bb

this will give you exact average quant as in formula above.

[jonny]

Really interesting!

[len0x]

I used to set min quant to 2 in quality mode and then calculate quality using that formula, but then I read that xvid uses only two quantizers during that mode, so we can set them right away...

*Edit* do you know how I came up with that? I'm usually using 2/3 quant and then when I set quality in xvid for 75% I got file sized almost the same as 100% - that was puzzling for a moment :)

[len0x]

Originally posted by len0x

xvid quality = bb


sorry this of course should be:

xvid quality = 100 - bb

[jonny]

xvid quality = bb

i was getting a bit mad for this, before understanding the typo :)

[Tuning]

Originally posted by jonny
In XviD 1.0 the quant is in the form: x.xx
This gives more freedom compared to the oldest "quantizer" & "quality based" modes.

@Tuning:
To better understand things (from XviD FAQ (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16935)):

Plus:
MaxQuant = 31
MinQuant = 2

So, before XviD 1.0, the quality mode % was a "simple slider", where:

100% equal quant=2
0% equal quant=31
all the others values gets calculated in a "linear way" (i don't know the correct english terms, but i hope you get the meaning).

Example:
quality=100% equal quant=2
quality=99% equal quant=2.29
quality=98% equal quant=2.58
quality=97% equal quant=2.87
quality=96% equal quant=3.16
quality=95% equal quant=3.45
quality=94% equal quant=3.74
quality=93% equal quant=4.03
quality=92% equal quant=4.32
quality=91% equal quant=4.61
quality=90% equal quant=4.9

As you can see, before XviD 1.0, there was no way to set accurately the average quantizer.

Thanks johny for this detailed explanation. Yep I re-read XviD faq.
:thanks:

[CooLKillaH]

Hello,

Maybe this is a stupid question, but: can I install Nic's DirectShow XviD Filter Decoder (23-02-03) after I installed AutoGK? The codec that AutoGK installs doesn't allow any options (brightness, flip the movie 180 degrees) when I'm watching the movie in Windows Mediaplayer.
When I install Nic's DirectShow XviD Filter Decoder after I installed AutoGK, will AutoGK still fuction properly?

Thanks

[Wolfman]

Is it to be expected that AGK will support xvid1.0 and its profiles, either now or quite soon... these profiles look quite good in the sense that people who are desperate for a quarter of a pixel can do it and those who like to runGMC can.. Advanced Simple for standalones or Advanced advanced for PC's (god knows what for Xbox)! :rolleyes:

[len0x]

Originally posted by CooLKillaH

Maybe this is a stupid question, but: can I install Nic's DirectShow XviD Filter Decoder (23-02-03) after I installed AutoGK? The codec that AutoGK installs doesn't allow any options (brightness, flip the movie 180 degrees) when I'm watching the movie in Windows Mediaplayer.
When I install Nic's DirectShow XviD Filter Decoder after I installed AutoGK, will AutoGK still fuction properly?


Yes, it will. Decoder part is not used by AutoGK in any way.

[len0x]

Originally posted by Wolfman
Is it to be expected that AGK will support xvid1.0 and its profiles, either now or quite soon...

I can't tell since I don't even have 1.0 installed yet.
But I'm not planning to look at it before it gets stable.

[manono]

And there aren't any standalones yet that support XviD's GMC. It's different from DivX's.

[CooLKillaH]

len0x: thanks for the quick answer.
Btw, I must say that AutoGK is a great tool, Thanks!

[zerocoolnl]

It's a great tool, but 0.75 isn't working:
http://members.lycos.nl/pwpbaronie/doom9/autogk_error.jpg

Hope you can find out whats wrong.

Gr,
Zerocoolnl

[EDIT] I just started or even better: where trying to start Autogk...

[bobsc]

Originally posted by zerocoolnl
It's a great tool, but 0.75 isn't working:
http://members.lycos.nl/pwpbaronie/doom9/autogk_error.jpg
Did you install AutoGK 0.5 first?

[zerocoolnl]

Yeah, I have used many previous versions to. I uninstalled the version I was using, installed 0.5 and then 0.75 but nothing is happening.

Zerocoolnl

[Christos]

Originally posted by CooLKillaH
Maybe this is a stupid question, but: can I install Nic's DirectShow XviD Filter Decoder (23-02-03) after I installed AutoGK? The codec that AutoGK installs doesn't allow any options (brightness, flip the movie 180 degrees) when I'm watching the movie in Windows Mediaplayer.
When I install Nic's DirectShow XviD Filter Decoder after I installed AutoGK, will AutoGK still fuction properly?

Originally posted by len0x
Yes, it will. Decoder part is not used by AutoGK in any way.


@len0x
Doesn't this decoder give the best image quality with Xvid or is it just me?
If it is so then, since it has quite a small size maybe you could include it in the installer?
Everyone I recomended your program to and tried Xvid encoding for the first time were really impressed by the image improvement they saw on their movies after they viewed them using Nic's Decoder...

[manono]

Hi-

There's a link to Nic's Decoder in the Links section of the guide. Is that good enough?

And yes, I agree that it's the best for decoding XviD. But there will be others that argue differently.

[Shuichiro]

Originally posted by r6d2
Before len0x has to answer this by 101th time :), an easy way to implement filter flexibility for advanced users would be to insert dummy preresize/postresize AVS script calls in the one generated by AutoGK.

That way you could have two places to screw up the quality Len0x has put so much effort to keep for you. :D

Seriously, I did that in FACAR and it provides a lot of flexibility.

However, I don't think it matches len0x objectives with this tool.


I don't want to implement more filters. I just need to add some lines at the end of the avs Script to burn in a logo of mine.

[wertherman]

Originally posted by manono
As for high bitrate MP3, as one response noted, at those high bitrates, you might as well use the AC3. It won't take up that much more space. Imagine a rookie dealing with Alt Fast Standard or R3Mix. "Huh? What the hell is that?"


r3mix encoded audio on a film typically comes out at about 140kbits/sec, which isn't really that much bigger than 128kbits/sec except that due to the fact that the audio is encoded in quality based (rather than single pass, fluctuating around a fixed bitrate that you get with ABR), it sounds far better. I haven't really encoded many film or episode soundtracks with alt-preset standard but I can't imagine the bitrate being excessively high (maybe ranging from about 140-200 kbits/sec). This is still far better than leaving a full 6 channel ac3 soundtrack in.....

A rookie doesn't need to be given the choice of "r3mix" or "alt-preset standard", all that needs to be added to the options (IMHO) is an option to do a quality based encoding (ie. alt-preset standard). It seems a bit crazy to me spending all this effort getting the best results out of the video codec (by doing compressibility tests before choosing the resolution and resize methods and then doing two pass encoding along with making sure it's all nicely deinterlaced), and not having the option to encode the audio at a set quality instead of a set bitrate.

[len0x]

Originally posted by zerocoolnl
Yeah, I have used many previous versions to. I uninstalled the version I was using, installed 0.5 and then 0.75 but nothing is happening.


something definitely went wrong during installation.
starting with version 0.77 you should be able to see more meaningful error message.

[len0x]

After seeing Return of The King I feel like releasing a new version :)

many small changes (some of them I probably forgot to add to the history). if no serious bugs are found in the next couple of days this is gonna be released as 0.8.

[r6d2]

Originally posted by Shuichiro
I don't want to implement more filters. I just need to add some lines at the end of the avs Script to burn in a logo of mine.
Well, that is precisely a filter. Anything that takes a stream of data as input, processes it in some way and delivers an output stream, is a filter.

[manono]

Hi wertherman-

This is still far better than leaving a full 6 channel ac3 soundtrack in.....

Yes, but I was comparing to a 2 channel AC3 (even though I didn't specifically state it), which many DVDs offer along with the 6 channel, and which DVDs of older movies usually offer exclusively. Sure, a 6 channel 448 AC3 is still way bigger then even the highest quality MP3.

But I'm not enough of an audiophile to care much about the audio, though. 128 ABR is fine with me for 1 CD rips, and AC3 for 2 CD rips, or higher bitrate MP3 if the video doesn't compress very well.

Also, isn't R3Mix encoding quite a bit slower than some of the other presets? Anyway, again, looking at it from a first time user's point of view, I don't think he/she really much cares about the finer points of audio encoding. What's offered already is fine for most people. And those that already know about these esoteric presets, can create them themselves manually, and can also do the video encoding and muxing themselves. If you like to tweak, I don't think this program is for you (like Shuichiro's request to be able to add his logo). Maybe len0x has plans for us to be able to open the .avs prior to the actual encoding, in order to add filters, the way you can with DVD2SVCD. I don't know, but I wouldn't be disappointed if that never became possible. Just as I wouldn't be disappointed if R3Mix or Alt Preset Standard never became available within AutoGK, even if, for example, they were implemented as some sort of 1 to 10 quality based choice.

[robust]

when will there be possibility to make two audio tracks in a movie? I'd like to have this option added in a new release of AutoGK.

[sillKotscha]

Originally posted by len0x

- xvid quality based mode improved
- chroma optimizer option is on for xvid by default

thank you Sir :)

very nice


Edit:

'n again one question... after analyzing the source/ and determine the bitrate, do you change the codec settings to „paybackwith bias“ for high bitrates (round about above ~900kbs) and/ or leave it to „payback proportionaly“ for bitrates below...??

second one:

for the second pass: do you do some two pass tuning?? I mean, do you set the „Below i-frame distance value“ (FPS/2) to 12 for 23.976 FPS, to 13 for 25.000 FPS and to 15 for 29.970 FPS? Respectivly the I-frame bitrate reduction value (FPS) to 24 for 23.976 FPS, to 25 for 25.000 FPS and to 30 for 29.970 FPS?...

[mikeathome]

Originally posted by len0x
After seeing Return of The King I feel like releasing a new version :)

many small changes (some of them I probably forgot to add to the history). if no serious bugs are found in the next couple of days this is gonna be released as 0.8.

@len0x:

could you pls. add this 1x DVD+-R(W) selection in size dialog. It was not a joke asking for that feature, seriously it will help people to avoid making the same mistake I did the first time. If you choose a size bigger than 4090MB you won't be able to put it on a DVD+-R(W) and have to do all over again.

Thx. for the wonderful software. It runs like a charm didn't find any major issues so far.

mike

[len0x]

Originally posted by sillKotscha
'n again one question... after analyzing the source/ and determine the bitrate, do you change the codec settings to „paybackwith bias“ for high bitrates (round about above ~900kbs) and/ or leave it to „payback proportionaly“ for bitrates below...??


no, it's always „payback proportionaly“. In fact I'm not really an expert in these settings...

Originally posted by sillKotscha

for the second pass: do you do some two pass tuning?? I mean, do you set the „Below i-frame distance value“ (FPS/2) to 12 for 23.976 FPS, to 13 for 25.000 FPS and to 15 for 29.970 FPS? Respectivly the I-frame bitrate reduction value (FPS) to 24 for 23.976 FPS, to 25 for 25.000 FPS and to 30 for 29.970 FPS?...

no, I don't do that either. Just checked and in fact I don't see "frame bitrate reduction value" in configuration. Just "frame bitrate reduction %"

[sillKotscha]

Originally posted by len0x
no, it's always „payback proportionaly“. In fact I'm not really an expert in these settings...

me too but that's the way it's supposed to be recommended (it was an Info floating around here in the forum... can't find the link atm)


Originally posted by len0x
no, I don't do that either. Just checked and in fact I don't see "frame bitrate reduction value" in configuration. Just "frame bitrate reduction %"

damn, where is the attachment button... can't upload an image for you as I don't have webspace

Edit: it's directly under "discard first pass" / "dummy secon pass"

first option is: Below I-frame distance...: [value] 12/13/15
second option is: I-frame bitrate reduction %: [value] 24/25/30

[sillKotscha]

Edit:

the Bitrate payback delay is an option to tweak as well...:

- set the Bitrate payback delay value (FPS) to 240 for 23.976 FPS, to 250 for 25.000 FPS and to 300 for 29.970 FPS.

[madprofessor]

i got trouble with a dvd with episodes.
it has only one vts and 8 pgc's from which the first 3 are episodes.
i rip them seperately to seperate folders but only the fist episode displays subtittles correctly with autogk 0.75b. (i havent tried previous versions)
plz help me out i'd appritiate it :p :p :p

[len0x]

Originally posted by madprofessor
i got trouble with a dvd with episodes.
it has only one vts and 8 pgc's from which the first 3 are episodes.


unfortunately I can only automatically recognize subs from the first PGC :(
So unless I put an option for manual PGC selection it cannot be done...

[zerocoolnl]

Uninstalled again everything and installed again 0.5 and 0.75 and it's fine now.
I have tested it with Jackass, 1 cd version, XviD

It's perfect!

Greetz,
Zerocoolnl

[bkam]

Okay, so I've been using AutoGK 0.75 beta to try on some episodes of Evangelion. Video comes out fine, but the audio is not synchronized. Actually I am not at the computer that I did it on anymore (except by remote desktop, since I'm at home for Christmas). But here is my theory: The audio ends up encoding to vbr only like 117kbps (I am using Auto audio settings). I think it is --alt-preset standard? So maybe the stereo channels in this source are very similar and joint-stereo or some part of LAME compresses it very well. But since this is below 128, LAME downsamples. And I think it is documented that downsampling is a bad idea if you want AV-sync. I might be totally wrong, this is what I am guessing. My friend is at that computer, and tried resampling to 44.1, and apparently that solves the sync problems (mostly... maybe we were supposed to do 48?). Is this possible? Does anyone know more about whether this is an AutoGK problem? I think adding a --resample line to the LAME code might help. I have access to the log of the last one if you need it.

[yotsuya-san]

Hi LenOx, I have not a DVD burner nor a fast pc, but I'd like to use quality based mode to make avis. So it could be an idea to implement, as compressibility test, a prediction size with qb mode, like Enc program by jonny. I know that it could be really difficult and time consuming to find the right % to fit the movie to 1 or 2 cd, but a prediction size could useful (or interesting, at least) to everybody who use qb mode.

Bye, Yotsuya.

[madprofessor]

Originally posted by len0x
unfortunately I can only automatically recognize subs from the first PGC :(
So unless I put an option for manual PGC selection it cannot be done...
Jeez:( :( :( ok no problem. still your program rulez. i understand that it is a bit tricky to predict every dvd format.
GREAT JOB :D :D :D

[gircobain]

I noticed that when you minimize autogk to system tray and right click on the icon so that the popup menu will come up, if you click anywhere outside the menu boundaries, it does not go away. It sticks to the screen until you restore autogk.
Perhaps this article may help you fix that problem:

http://smartcard.caret.cam.ac.uk/delphi-system-tray.html

I have implemented this feature on some of my own code following those guidelines and it works like a charm.
Congrats for such a great, time saving application!

[len0x]

Originally posted by madprofessor
Jeez:( :( :( ok no problem. still your program rulez. i understand that it is a bit tricky to predict every dvd format.


I might do a quick hack (don't have time for full solution):
file subs.settings can be put in input dir manually which contains two lines: first line Angle (0 if none), second PGC. Then AutoGK can pick them up on the fly...

[len0x]

Originally posted by gircobain
Perhaps this article may help you fix that problem:


thanks, I'll give that a go.

[madprofessor]

Originally posted by len0x
I might do a quick hack (don't have time for full solution):
file subs.settings can be put in input dir manually which contains two lines: first line Angle (0 if none), second PGC. Then AutoGK can pick them up on the fly...
ok first of all im flattered to have you working on "my" bug :D
and second if you do that plz let me know cause i 'm gona rip 9 whole series of episodes and that will make my life very easy :) :) :)