CoreCodec/H.264 Codec "CoreAVC"

[Avish]

Any news about trial version?? :D

[saratoga]

XBMC version of CoreAVC will not happen anytime soon as we spoke specifically with the devels of XBMC and were not able to work on a solution.



What was the issue? GPL licenseing or similar?

A fast decoder for XBMC would be amazing. I've been secretly hopeing it would happen since you guys annouced the beta test.

[starg4ze]

Regarding the XBMC version of CoreAVC and licencemodels.

The important thing is not how the codec is distributed. If there is problem with mplayers/xbmc licensemodel, don't distribute it with it then. Make a package that every user have to install on their xbox by them self. The important thin is that it should not require more work than copying the dll and changing a few rows in a script.

How hard can it be to compile the decoder with the XBOX SDK?:confused:

[Gnerma]

I doubt the problem is technical starg4ze. Reading between betaboy's lines money seems to be the sticking point between the two parties.

[BetaBoy]

I doubt the problem is technical starg4ze. Reading between betaboy's lines money seems to be the sticking point between the two parties.
Its nothing complicated... and it was never about money... and it was on the development side of things.... and to be fair thats all I can really say on it.

[MaxL]

hmm, still no other way to buy CoreAVC but F...... PayPal :(

[Gnerma]

Its nothing complicated... and it was never about money... and it was on the development side of things.... and to be fair thats all I can really say on it.Fair enough. I apologize if I offended you with that comment. So when can pro owners expect an update? Ok ok I'm sorry, you don't have to answer that :D

[ChronoCross]

well since no one has responded to my bugreport on your page hopefully here it will get some attention.

Lossless decoding in coreavc does not work. 2 different samples. one in mkv, one in mp4 different resolutions. they work fine using ffdshow, and nero showtime 3. Hopefully this will be fixed soon.

[BetaBoy]

well since no one has responded to my bugreport on your page hopefully here it will get some attention.

Lossless decoding in coreavc does not work. 2 different samples. one in mkv, one in mp4 different resolutions. they work fine using ffdshow, and nero showtime 3. Hopefully this will be fixed soon.
CC... I saw the bug report on the tracker.... i'll look into it... thx for the report.

[popper]

will someone with the tech skills and knowlage please go this
thead "MPEG2, X264, Xvid HD 1080i - The Lowdown "
http://forum.digital-digest.com/showthread.php?t=65336
and correct these guys posts with the right information and
insight please.

his main source of info seems to be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ and even then makes reference to mpeg4 without explaining the parts2 and 10 and lumping them all together to the conclusion that mpeg2 is best for HD.

im just now becoming wiser with the help of this board and
some BBC tech peoples posts elseware as regards HD PAL and NTSC etc but this thread above just grates on my head that its so wong to to state something as conclusive without reading up on it and especially the fact that he's trying to pass it off as "the LOWDOWN" without what seems much clue
about even the correct names and how they fit together and the timeline, never mind the passing off xvid as a H.264, arrrr

some PAL 50hz HD posts and how they relate to good down conversion would be most welcome to there please.

[Revgen]

First of all, there isn't a "best" codec for HD material. MPEG2 and AVC have their distinct advantages.

Second of all, MPEG2 bit-for-bit video quality generally doesn't measure up to AVC. But, it also doesn't require as much CPU resources, and genrally would be better suited for those who don't have CoreAVC and a Dual-Core CPU. And finally, MPEG2 editing solutions are more widely available than AVC editing solutions, and at less cost. Whether MPEG2 or AVC is "best" is up to you.

[siddharthagandhi]

What about VC-1....you're leaving out what currently is #1 in HD encoding

[ChronoCross]

#1 for commercial solutions. It's certainly not the best codec.

[ryoohki360]

#1 for commercial solutions. It's certainly not the best codec.

Well we don't have acces to that codec. It's the 2005 revision of the original WMVHD Codec, i know that added B frames and 3 pass rendering , it's 'closer' than h264.

[ChronoCross]

I would imagine that x264 will be shown superior come time for testing.

[siddharthagandhi]

Hey BetaBoy I wasn't able to play the HD file you gave me the link to last week (greatest game ever played). Guess I might have to buy your decoder eventually. But....I'll wait a little while, because I have no immediate need to decode HD and there might be good freeware and open source solutions in the future.... :P

[IgorC]

please don't pollute the forum with open source and commercial projects wars.
Five minutes ago you were crazy about to probe VC-1 Microsoft . Commercial project N1 not only here but in the world.

[siddharthagandhi]

i'm not starting a war that was totally friendly comment

thats why i have the smiley and i said "might"

[BetaBoy]

funny... it was ot me who sent you that link.. it was SMD...

[siddharthagandhi]

Oh it was?... lol i forget.....my memory sucks....

[blubberbirne]

@BetaBoy

It the actually version of coreavc ready to work with dvb-s2 cards?
e.g. KNC-ONE DVB-S2?

[BetaBoy]

your referring to TS support and MBAFF interlaced... Haali has indicated his splitter should soon support it and MBAFF will be added in a few weeks to our Pro Edition.

[eLupus]

about the xbmc integration.. i think we and the core devs kinda stumbled on understanding what the other wanted :). As far as i know, there wasn't really any direct contact between devs, only "intermediaries".

Generally our problem with supporting the coreavc decoder, is that the only available one is directshow based, wich kinda is a pain to support under any other operating system than windows. There is a wrapper in the mplayer version that we use, but it's far from complete and doesn't work for CoreAVC directshow filter as it is now. The thought of writing our own emulator for this to use in our alternate player has come to mind, thou has not been done yet.

Registry dependancy is abit complicated too, however can be handled.

A though for the CoreAVC people would be to provide an alternate interface for decoding than using directshow.. Possibly even providing docs on how the coreplayer interfaces with the decoder as I kinda assume that is simpler than ds. On our part a windows precompiled dll is no problem, aslong as it doesn't have gui dependancies in use during init or decoding as those are painfull to emulate. I suppose just creating a new interface for use ith XBMC is more work than what you can expect it to return, however refactoring the code to support more operating system, could definatly increase the return.

Licencing issues shouldn't be any real problem aslong as the interface for the dll is available under some gpl compatible format ( see no reason for it not being free for all, as it only would increase support for your product and increase sales )

We are still very interested in supporting the decoder.

<edit> verified once more and it stumbled on the idea to do some mutual exchange of help. at that time none of our devs had any time or interest in what coreavc had in mind. so i guess we are somewhat to blame here </edit>

/Team-XBMC

[bkman]

I hope you don't mind me asking, Betaboy, but what kind of hardware requirement will the upcoming GPU acceleration have? Any PS2.0 card? Or higher?

[ACrowley]

I hope you don't mind me asking, Betaboy, but what kind of hardware requirement will the upcoming GPU acceleration have? Any PS2.0 card? Or higher?


yeah....and what about "GPU support added later" ?

3Month....6Month, 1 Year ??

[tomos]

right now, i havent seen anyone, anywhere who has this working on nvidia cards :(

[futurex]

you're going to need a card that actually handles H264 acceleration, eg geforce 7 series and ATI X1300 and up

[Revgen]

your referring to TS support and MBAFF interlaced... Haali has indicated his splitter should soon support it and MBAFF will be added in a few weeks to our Pro Edition.

CoreAVC can currently read TS files using the latest version of MPC which comes bundled with it's own TS reader.

[BetaBoy]

Sure.... but to be honest imho its still second to Haali's splitter.

[pankov]

that's good, but when will this splitter be available?
will it be free or it will come only bundled with CoreAVC?

btw
how is the work on the alternative payment methods going? Can we expect it any time soon?

[Shinigami-Sama]

halii has always been free to the best of my recollection

[pankov]

I know that the current version is free and I hope that even this version specially developed with/for Core developers will still be free ... but who knows

[Shinjite]

I am using CoreAVC 1.0.0, and I am using MPC to play my files, normally when I seek, it lags a bit, issit normal?

[GodofaGap]

Yes, this is normal.

Say you have a GOP of 150 frames long and you seek to the 100th frame. The decoder will first have to decode the 99 preceding frames and, of course, you can't expect it to do this instantaneously.

[Shinjite]

Oh okay thanks for explaining bro :)

Oh yeah another question, is the CoreAVC 1.0.0.0 anyhow faster in decoding than the beat version?

[starlabs]

Yes, this is normal.

Say you have a GOP of 150 frames long and you seek to the 100th frame. The decoder will first have to decode the 99 preceding frames and, of course, you can't expect it to do this instantaneously.


I get a lag (well, more of a speedup of playback followed by a possible playback repeat of the prior 2 seconds or so) if I use the Haali splitter.

If I use the Nero splitter, no such issues. This is with Nero-encoded h.264 content of course. I'm assuming Nero knows something about it's own format/streams to "prevent" this?

I'll like to use Haali as I feel it has more features, but this issue (and another regarding aspect ratio that appears on Haali but not on Nero) has me sticking to the Nero splitter...

[Dethis]

Oh okay thanks for explaining bro :)

Oh yeah another question, is the CoreAVC 1.0.0.0 anyhow faster in decoding than the beat version?

OK you could search this thread.. but it is huge

Depends on the case

Coreavc 1.0 is 1%-2% (Betaboy says) faster than previous directshow (2006-13-01) but if your CPU is HyperThread capable its 15% faster.
Coreavc 1.0 Pro can be about 2X or 4X faster on 2 or 4 CPU (cores) systems

Corecodecs TCPMP 0.71-0.72 with avc.plg was 15-20% faster than directshow version (in my case : P4 2400, no HT)

I am looking forward the upcoming CorePlayer to catch the ultimate speed with my current CPU.

[Scoty]

how can use CoreAVC pro with MPC ? ok i have re-register but MPC will only use Haali Video Renderer. when i disabled the intern decoder from MPC i use standart MPG2 Decoder, with enabled i use Haalis Renderer but not the CoreAVC.

[jblade]

about the xbmc integration.. i think we and .......
<edit> verified once more and it stumbled on the idea to do some mutual exchange of help. at that time none of our devs had any time or interest in what coreavc had in mind. so i guess we are somewhat to blame here </edit>

/Team-XBMC

Hopefully we will see chatt continue then between the two. Who knows maybe even eventually, we shall see a similiar quicktime alternative, that will rename the movies to .hdmov so that coreavc will be used on the xbox. It seems that the main problem is the lack of linux support in coreavc, but it seems that very soon that will not be a problem.

[Nick [D]vB]

Hello again,

Sorry to keep on about this but I’m going to give it one last shot. I appreciate you have set an internal development schedule according to your available resources and perceived demands of the marketplace but I just won’t to make sure you are fully aware of the current situation in the UK as I feel there is a potentially huge and, as of yet, untapped market for you here.

I’m sure you are aware the BBC have just started an HD trail across all platforms, it will show a wide range of programming but without question the biggest attraction will be the football World Cup which starts in just under a month. There has been a lot of media coverage of the trail and specifically the fact the major providers have massively underestimated demand for equipment that can receive it. Watch the short national News segments here for the background:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/breakfast/4752017.stm

Basically the only cable provider offering the service, called TeleWest, is currently only available to a small number of homes in the UK. The other major player is $ky satellite, it has enough kit but is having trouble training enough installers in time, and now can not install any systems until after the World Cup has finished. :mad:

If I’m boarding you just bear with me a minute this next bit is crucially important. The BBC had also started a DVB-T trail which would let a large part of London receive the same HD programs through a normal TV aerial. BUT the BBC has chosen to run this as a closed trail [due to bandwidth limitations and other “political issues” with the regulator OfCom] and so has only supplied 500 set-top decoders! The service is FTA and unencrypted but there are no other commercially available AVC DVB-T decoders that can be used to watch the service. :confused:

Because of this a PC based solution seems to be the ONLY option for many people wanting to watch the World Cup in HD this summer, and there are plenty of them! In fact it would be hard to over-estimate the demand here at the moment, I know hundreds of people currently looking for a real-time MBAFF decoding solution in time for the World Cup. According to tests I’ve done with the Elecard and Cyberlink decoders they are just not able to provide acceptable performance even on ultra high-end dual core A64FX based system with ATI X1900’s [using GPU acceleration]. I don’t know about NVIDIA’s acceleration performance but most report it is not working with most products in the latest drivers.

I am sure if you are able to provide a solution in time for the Worlds Cup [even a fuctioning beta release] you would have a massive number of customers, but the timing is critical, with your current development schedule MBAFF support would not be available until well after the World Cup has stated, I don’t want to jinks the team but should England be knocked out of the tournament in the early stages a large part of this potential market would just evaporate over–night. Let’s just hope they are still on form by the time you’ve got something ready! Well I’ve said my piece. I am not trying to tell you how to run your business; I just wanted to make sure you were fully aware of this opportunity. Keep up the good work guys – just go a bit faster… :D

Thanks,
Nick

[Revgen]

Nick,

I believe Betaboy addressed this earlier, but I'll try to explain it.

Core is a very, very, very small company. Right now, all of the demand from the doom9 forum has forced them to have to upgrade their purchasing system. But even that isn't helping. Ask Scoty about it.

I doubt that they would be able to supply decoders for everyone in Britain who has a computer and wants to watch the games.

Then again I might be wrong, but I doubt it.

PS
I think Betaboy mentioned that MBAFF support would come out next month. Doesn't the world cup start next month? If so, then it should be right on time.

[Nick [D]vB]

I believe Betaboy addressed this earlier, but I'll try to explain it.
He has, I don't mean to be a nuisance about it but I really want to make sure Core appreciate the scale of the potential market.

Core is a very, very, very small company. Right now, all of the demand from the doom9 forum has forced them to have to upgrade their purchasing system. But even that isn't helping. Ask Scoty about it.

I doubt that they would be able to supply decoders for everyone in Britain who has a computer and wants to watch the games
If it was really necessary couldn't they find a third-party distributor that could cope with a large demand in the short term?

I think Betaboy mentioned that MBAFF support would come out next month. Doesn't the world cup start next month? If so, then it should be right on time.

I was told it would be over 6 weeks, I'm not holding anyone to that because I suspect it was just an estimate. The world cup starts in about three weeks, to make matters worse the England team just lost one if its star players so weather we are still in the tournament by the time the codec is available is anyone’s guess. Also I think domestic and business customers would both want to see a workable solution before investing in hardware. I really hope they can get something together for us in time, and I know I'm not alone...

[BetaBoy]

Try we will but no promises... We have delayed CorePlayer long enough mostly for codec development. Yes we are small but we are probally gonna grow 4x in the next 2-3 months with all the devel that is going on here.

For Scoty... his issue was the emails flagged as 'spam' but to fix this we will let the user manage his/her account and download any upgrades available and hence why we have opted to devel a 'Core Account' system to do this. We will have no less then 20 products within the next year coming out and this seemed like the most logical step.

No worries as our testing for DVB-H with CorePlayer Mobile will commence the beginning of summer... so MBAFF is a big priority for us.

[fields_g]

We will have no less then 20 products within the next year coming out and this seemed like the most logical step.


Small yet very ambitious. Great Work!

[Nick [D]vB]

Try we will but no promises... so MBAFF is a big priority for us.

Thanks for getting back to me, we are counting on you.

I don't know you have seen this before but it makes very interesting reading!

http://www.behardware.com/news/8117/coreavc-stronger-than-avivo-purevideo.html

:D

[Ice =A=]

@Nick [D]vB: Very interresting indeed, thanks a lot!

[chros]

My guess the ddraw overlay mode didn't kick in or it couldn't use yv12 format. The fallback mode is kind of useless (unoptimized) at the moment. Fullscreen slowing down, means the player uses (fallback) software scaling.
I have no picture in fullscreen-overlay mode with MPC ... (VMR9 renderless works OK.)
Any idea ?
Thanks

[seftel]

so MBAFF is a big priority for us.

London is counting on you :)

Even an alpha release by the ninth would be awesome.

[Revgen]

vB']Thanks for getting back to me, we are counting on you.

I don't know you have seen this before but it makes very interesting reading!

http://www.behardware.com/news/8117/coreavc-stronger-than-avivo-purevideo.html

:D

I believe that this was found out earlier in these forums awhile back. But it's still good to know that somebody else did a test.

[Nick [D]vB]

I realise you guys just might have looked into it before... :D

I was really talking about this part:

ATI indicated us that the decompression engine used by Cyberlink's codec is still the one that was released in December and that in the meantime (4 months), a more efficient version has been integrated in the drivers. As it has a different interface, it can't be exploited by Cyberlink's codec. The older acceleration engine disappeared from the recently released Catalyst 6.4 version (we used the 6.3 for this test), so it means that they will no longer accelerate H.264 decoding. We will have to wait for the Catalyst 6.5 or 6.6 for the new engine to be exploited and/or exploitable. Cyberlink apparently don't want to change their codec, so ATI will have to find a way to use the new engine when the codec calls the previous one.

It looks like Cyberlink have ditched ATI and gotten into bed with NVIDIA, especially when you look at the 7900GTX performance in that test.

Neros acceleration performance is pathetic by comparison so you'd think someone else would want to get in on the act by now?

.