LAV Filters - DirectShow Media Splitter and Decoders

[nevcairiel]

But you may only want 4dB because low frequencies add coherently. Read the posts I linked.

[e-t172]

But you may only want 4dB because low frequencies add coherently. Read the posts I linked.

To be fair the linked posts don't really discuss the coherency issue (not in the bass range anyway).

Let's summarize:

The +10dB gain on the LFE channel is supposed to be applied at the bass management stage, which in the vast majority of cases is in the AV receiver. This is why LAV Audio does not touch levels in the default non-downmixing mode.

If LAV Audio is downmixing then it has to do the bass management as well, which is why the LFE boost should be applied there.

The correct gain for the LFE signal in a stereo downmix is +4dB, not +7dB, because acoustic signals sum up coherently in the bass range (< 300 Hz) - this is not generally true for higher frequencies. Coherent summation is +6dB, not +3dB. Conversely, the reason why the standard center downmix is -3dB and not -6dB is because most of the center channel content consist of frequencies above the modal region which do not sum coherently (not in a reverberant room anyway), hence the +3dB in this case.

You can actually measure this using a measurement microphone (or maybe even a dB meter): if you play bass frequencies on one speaker and then both, you will notice a 6dB difference, but if you do the same for higher frequencies, you will only come up with a 3dB difference.

In addition, I shall remind everyone that it is generally a bad idea to downmix LFE if you don't have a subwoofer, because LFE signals are very likely to overload stereo speakers (even if they're good).

[DragonQ]

I didn't used to downmix LFE to my 4.0 system but I tried it and my 5.1 music tracks now have so much more bass it's awesome. :)

[e-t172]

I didn't used to downmix LFE to my 4.0 system but I tried it and my 5.1 music tracks now have so much more bass it's awesome. :)

Be careful when downmixing LFE on *music* tracks, as some morons wrote guidelines (don't remember which document, unfortunately - it might be the DVD-A spec, but I'm not sure) for DVD-Audio & other multichannel music formats that explicitly state that the LFE boost should *not* be applied. This is completely stupid in my opinion because it breaks compatibility with video 5.1 (which has been around for much longer than music 5.1) for no reason. The obvious consequence is that some 5.1 music is produced with LFE +10dB and others don't (depending on which standard was followed), and it is impossible to know which one is which. What I usually do is that I enable/disable LFE +10dB depending on which sounds best on a particular piece of music, which is a very unsatisfying solution.

[James Freeman]

Is there a way to use LAV Audio for decoding, and AC3Filter for Bass Redirection & Mixing after decoding?

[jmone]

James, have you considered a player like MC (payware) as it does all this and more?

[e-t172]

Is there a way to use LAV Audio for decoding, and AC3Filter for Bass Redirection & Mixing after decoding?

By the way, nowadays lots of sound card drivers have an option to enable bass management in the sound card itself (most notably all Xonars have it AFAIK).

[James Freeman]

I use Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 DSP (http://us.focusrite.com/firewire-audio-interfaces/saffire-pro-24-dsp) in my home studio, in which I can create any mix I want from any channel.
But there is no Low-pass I can apply to the mix and send to one of the outputs where I connect my Sub.

James, have you considered a player like MC (payware) as it does all this and more?
I already have PowerDVD13 for my blu-rays.
No more payware please.

[jkauff]

I already have PowerDVD13 for my blu-rays.
No more payware please.
I'm sorry. I have PDVD13, too.

I also own JRiver Media Center. I use it to catalog all my music and movies, and for playback of most of my movies and TV shows. I still use foobar a lot, but only because I'm used to it. MC does just as good as job, including playing DSD files. If I had a home media center, it would be my choice for that. It does surround output very well from what I've heard.

$50 is a reasonable price for what you get, and it's constantly updated. Too bad it can't do Blu-ray menus and copy protection, or I could ditch PDVD.

BTW, nev is now a JRiver employee. That should tell you something about their commitment to quality.

[James Freeman]

I just tried JRiver (for a few seconds).
It started to scan my system for media files, I could hear the HDD go crazy (PowerDVD lets you disable this at the setup stage).
I immediately uninstalled it.

No thanks.

[andyvt]

I just tried JRiver (for a few seconds).
It started to scan my system for media files, I could hear the HDD go crazy (PowerDVD lets you disable this at the setup stage).
I immediately uninstalled it.

No thanks.

You can make it not do that by clicking the "Cancel" option when it tells you that it's going to start indexing your content in the bottom left hand corner.

Frankly it's a bit strange to not want the program you use to index and playback media to index the media so you can play it back. While you can use Explorer to browse and play content, it's not the way that most people use these sorts of applications, or want them to behave. Especially because the metadata embedded within (or in the case of many video file types, laying around) is useful for finding or pivoting around it. I don't always agree with the way JMC is designed, but in this area (and playback) they do the right thing by looking for content in the most likely places to find it on a PC. Personally, I override it because I don't store media content on my PC (that's what the file server is for), which is also available as an option.

That said, you're entitled to a set of preferences no matter how uncommon, but you should understand that the behavior you dislike is probably an artifact of the overwhelming benefit it provides to the majority of users.

[6233638]

I just tried JRiver (for a few seconds).
It started to scan my system for media files, I could hear the HDD go crazy (PowerDVD lets you disable this at the setup stage).
I immediately uninstalled it.

No thanks.For what it's worth, I have complained to them about this in the past. It should not scan your entire system automatically after a 45s countdown. This is just bad design, and I have raised the issue on their forums again.

But don't let this put you off using the software. It's very good.

[JimH]

I just tried JRiver (for a few seconds).
It started to scan my system for media files, I could hear the HDD go crazy (PowerDVD lets you disable this at the setup stage).
I immediately uninstalled it.

No thanks.
Sorry to hear that. Your comment started a conversation on our forum, where I gave JRiver's reasoning.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88133.0

I don't expect you to be convinced. I just want you to know why we do what you saw.

Jim Hillegass
CEO, JRiver

[James Freeman]

Hi Jim,

Not to be controversial but I am not "your typical user", I don't like intrusive software (iTunes most of all).
Typical user will not bother with Custom installation, Advanced one will.
At least make this an option to disable Media Scan at the setup stage under Custom section.
This way you can satisfy both camps.

Thanks.

[mindbomb]

For directsound, there sometimes is enhancements available in control panel>sound>properties>enhancements, and one of the enhancements is bass redirection. Available enhancements vary by sound card I think. You can also use ffdshow audio processor, it can accept uncompressed audio from lav audio. You can also use ac3filter with lav audio if you select pcm on the system page.

[6233638]

At least make this an option to disable Media Scan at the setup stage under Custom section.The media scan is on a 45 second timer - it doesn't scan your system immediately.

Unfortunately this is hidden in the lower-left corner of the program and you may not have noticed it when you first launched MC.

[JimH]

Hi Jim,

Not to be controversial but I am not "your typical user", I don't like intrusive software (iTunes most of all).
Typical user will not bother with Custom installation, Advanced one will.
At least make this an option to disable Media Scan at the setup stage under Custom section.
This way you can satisfy both camps.

Thanks.
You can also configure auto import under Tools/Import. You can add a directory to import and edit it to specify file types.

On an empty library, MC will always offer to import. Importing anything will stop that.

If shell integration is checked in MC's options, you can import from Explorer by right clicking file(s) or a directory.

[nevcairiel]

Please try to keep off-topic discussions out of my thread, please.

[JimH]

;)

Sorry, sir.

[SamuriHL]

;)

Sorry, sir.

BAHAHAHAHA. Now that is funny right there. :D

Let's see if I can instigate Nev a little. Soooo, Nev, you and madshi working on 3D yet? :D (I'm just teasing...everyone calm down :D)

[nevcairiel]

3D is overrated. :p

[SamuriHL]

HAHAHAH :) It's the only thing I still need a commercial player for. I actually enjoy the 3D experience on my Panny plasma, but, I understand a lot of people don't. Still, I'd kill for LAV and madVR to add support for it some day. I know, it's not a high priority....I get it. But I can dream.

[jmone]

BAHAHAHAHA. Now that is funny right there. :D

Let's see if I can instigate Nev a little. Soooo, Nev, you and madshi working on 3D yet? :D (I'm just teasing...everyone calm down :D)

I thought it was BD Menus Nev and madshi were working on next? :)

[nevcairiel]

I rip all my BDs into MKVs, I don't need no stinkin' menus. I have loads of cardboard boxes full of Blu-rays, which I'll probably never take out again. Although I did just two weeks ago because my sister wanted to browse for a few movies to watch, and she prefers shuffling through the discs. :p

[jmone]

...I was also just teasing but...there are more than just movies on BD

...for the Average Joe who puts in their:
- Game Of Thrones BD is going to struggle finding their eps without a menu (as it is one of a few playlists that are currently untitled), or
- locate the Hotel California track on that Eagles BD (as it is one of many chapters that are currently untitled).

[jmone]

...actually it is more about being able to pull out any assigned Playlist and Chapter names that a player could then display instead of generic Chapter 1 or Title 1.

[nevcairiel]

...actually it is more about being able to pull out any assigned Playlist and Chapter names that a player could then display instead of generic Chapter 1 or Title 1.

That information is not available on the disc.

[jmone]

Right, it is stored in the Menu?

[nevcairiel]

Possibly somewhere. Menus on many discs are small Java programs, who knows where they hide their information. It could even be images for names only.
Even the more basic HDMV menus have various different approaches to store things, can't extract info from the menu.

They didn't design those to be easily playable without the menu. That would be too easy. We're lucky its usually easy to actually play the content, once you figure out which playlist it is.

[SamuriHL]

Episode discs are indeed a pain without the menus to show what order they should be played in. But Nev is right, java menus make it extremely difficult. It's not something I expect any time soon. Basic menu support such that XBMC has would be nice at some point. At least with that we can use AnyDVD's speed menu on most discs.

[nevcairiel]

Speed Menus don't help a bit with TV shows really.

[jmone]

Right, so back to the argument about needing Menu support (at some point) ;)

This is an example of what a Music BD looks like with (using dslibbluray) and without menu support (using MC).
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59011278/PA3.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59011278/PA4.jpg

While I can tag it up (in MC with particles) the Average Joe has no chance and even I get stuff wrong all the time. My son mentioned yesterday that I've tagged the Eps wrongly on some Supernatural TV Series BD's as the playlist order does not follow the eps order! Hows that for making it hard - a PITA

[jmone]

FYI (to Nevs point about being non text) - had a quick look with BD Edit on the above disk, any in this case the Menu items are all in a small 000002.m2ts as embedded graphics objects.

[filler56789]

Right, so back to the argument about needing Menu support (at some point) ;)

This is an example of what a Music BD looks like with (using dslibbluray) and without menu support (using MC).
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=88100.0;attach=12559;image
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=88100.0;attach=12561;image

jmone, not everybody is a registered user of the JRiver forum ;)

[jmone]

Sorry - did not even know you needed by a registered user on the board to view pics - changed the links to just file links from drop box.

[filler56789]

^ Thanks =^.^=

[apgood]

Isn't the presentation of menus for bluray more of a player or renderer thing? Or am I off track and it needs to be built into the splitter?

OT: I know there is the thread on here by Dukey to do with an open source bluray menu project. Couldn't that be integrated into jriver mc similar to LAV filters and MadVR? With Dukey's permission of course.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[jmone]

You really need the whole chain to be menu aware (player, splitter, decoder and renderer). FYI - the pic I posted was from the latest Dukey build.

[apgood]

You really need the whole chain to be menu aware (player, splitter, decoder and renderer). FYI - the pic I posted was from the latest Dukey build.

OK so which decoder & player did you use?

Sorry Nev. Last OT question promise. :o

[jmone]

Dukey's package includes a "demo player" and an custom EVR Mixer that support the required video mixing of the streams as well as the core "dslibblurary" filter and a java lib (and on my sys LAV is then used for the decoding). You would never use this as your full time player but you can use it to see how well it handles (or does not) various BD playback. From what I can work out it really needs support from the likes of Nev and madshi (or a major player like MPC / MC etc) if it is to really hit the main stream rather than the Proof of Concept it seems to have been in for ages.... and I'm not sure that Nev is all that keen from either personal desire or the state of the code (but I would rather not put words in his mouth!)

[jmone]

and yes it is OT - so while I'd love to see Nev say he was keen my crystal ball says:
Please try to keep off-topic discussions out of my thread, please.

Thread for dslibbluray is http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=164314&page=16

[apgood]

Lol.. Thanks jmone. I actually downloaded it just now and had a bit of a play. Totally agree with you.

Not sure what I would like support for from LAV first 3D or menus. Probably menus. But then I can fully understand when time is limited you work on what you find most useful and by the sound of it either of those are not really on the high needs list just yet.

I wonder what is... ;p

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[starla]

You really need the whole chain to be menu aware (player, splitter, decoder and renderer). FYI - the pic I posted was from the latest Dukey build.

Actually decoder doesn't have to be menu aware with Blu-rays. Even video renderer can be ignorant about the menus (for example you can render the menu content by the player itself on top of the video). Splitter and player are the only mandatory parts in the chain but of course it is possible to use other design as well (like video renderer in Dukey's approac).

edit: sorry for the off topic :)

[SamuriHL]

As for 3D that may happen someday. But not any time soon. Splitting and decoding are relatively straight forward... At least well understood. The rendering is the big problem. Lots of issues there. None of which are nev's problem to solve.

Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk

[qtwebkit]

I have trouble in dxva wmv3/vc1 with my intel HD4000 and MPC-HC.
Step 1.By default, the wmv options in source filters and transform filters are not checked in MPC-HC, which is only avalible for dxva vc1, wmv3 dxva is not supported.
Step 2.I check both the options manully, but it performance worse in dxva vc1，with serious lag in fast seeking, still unavalible with wmv3 dxva.
Step 3.Then I unckeck the wmv option in source filters，keep the wmv option in transform filters being ckecked. Both vc1 and wmv3 are supported very well, no lag in fast seeking.

Also, I've found similar case in MPC-BE + LAV. Both wmv3 and vc1 work's fine with BE's internal filters,.
If I plug-in lav (including lav source filter) and set preferred, things would be similar with Step 2.
Then I remove the lav source filter an keep the others unchanged, things become similar with Step 3.

So, as checking wmv option in transform filters of MPC-HC could bring better experience in dxva wmv3/vc1, why not checking it by default?

And another question, judging from my test on MPC-BE, is it the lav source filter that slow down the vc1 decoding, or even block the wmv3 dxva?

[dukey]

Actually decoder doesn't have to be menu aware with Blu-rays.
True, but it needs support end of sequence codes. Otherwise stills remain black until the stream gets flushed. Which means you can sit through a lot of black frames until your menu appears :p

[NikosD]

@nev

Apparently there is a serious bug regarding LAV splitter and QS decoder as described here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1674202#post1674202)

Is it something fixable ?

Also I found out one more problem, using MPC-HC(LAV internal) and QS decoder.

For VC-1 interlaced clips (not MPEG-2 or H.264 interlaced clips) the deinterlacer doesn't kick in using the default EVR-CP renderer.

You have to explicitly enable HW deinterlacer through the HW deinterlacer switch of LAV Video properties or use the EVR renderer.

For all the other interlaced codecs and for EVR, there is no such problem.

[nevcairiel]

Someone that cares is free to send patches to improve seeking. I don't.
Most other decoders are smart enough to recover no matter where you seek to, so its hardly a "serious" bug.

[NikosD]

This is a strange situation where LAV splitter works OK with other than QS decoders and QS decoder works OK with other than LAV splitters.

We need this co-operation between LAV splitter and QS decoder, maybe you could both make a step closer to a workaround.

Did you manage to check VC-1 deinterlacing with EVR-CP and QS decoder ?

[Tom Keller]

Seeing this old posting:

Nevcairiel
Can you please:
1. add support for chapters(cuesheets) in ape/flac/wv?
2. add support for more ID3 tags in MP3?
3. Add support for IDSMResourceBag / IPropertyBag interface, so media players will be able to request and show covers(which could have mimes: image/jpeg, image/jpg, image/png) from mp3/flac/ape (without depending on MediaInfo).
I put these on my task list, but not sure when i'll get to it.

... made me curious. So i just wanted to ask: are there any future plans supporting the reading and displaying of embedded covers from audio files?