LAV Filters - DirectShow Media Splitter and Decoders

[nekromantik]

thanks guys :)

[NikosD]

@nev

After upgrading my old system (AthlonXP - Radeon 3650 AGP (UVD+) - Cat. 13.9) from Windows XP to Windows Vista (unfortunately it can't take Win 7 due to driver conflict), I had the opportunity to try LAV Video and MPC-HC 1.7.3 for the first time using DXVA with UVD+ (because LAV filters don't support Windows XP DXVA1)

I can say that I had a better experience than using PotPlayer for all the clips that UVD+ and LAV Video DXVA can decode.

BUT once again like UVD2.2 (Radeon 4000/5000 series) there were a lot of restrictions for clips that UVD+ could decode:
Codec restriction, Resolution restriction, ReF number restriction - it's like you follow exactly the BluRay specs for H.264

The main restrictions are:

1) No WMV3 HW acceleration (it's disabled for unknown reason)

2) No above 1080p H.264 HW acceleration - like 2048 x 1280

3) No H.264 1080p Ref 5/6 HW acceleration (it's restricted to Ref 4)

4) No H.264 720p Ref 12 HW acceleration (it's restricted to Ref 9)

All of the above files play flawlessly with PotPlayer in DXVA mode and UVD+, so those are not driver/ HW restrictions, only LAV Video restrictions.

So, if you don't want to leave driver to handle those situations by default and you don't want to test every possible combination of ATI HW decoder (UVD, UVD+, UVD2, UVD2.2) and various clips, resolutions etc I have a suggestion for you.

Make a "secret/ hidden" button named "Use DXVA anyway" or "Force HW acceleration" or something like that, in order to give power users a chance to test - in their own responsibility - DXVA acceleration in their systems in situations where you decided to disable it.

That option should have no restriction/ limitation by LAV Video and should leave everything to the driver and the other DXVA options of LAV Video (like codecs and resolution)

I think you have to loose some restrictions and gain more flexibility and options for the people who know what they do.

Of course that option will be disabled by default.

[michkrol]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/8xz535

18fps with LAV :o

Works flawlessly here with LAVFilters x86 v0.60.1 official and MPC-HC's internal version. I'm getting between 2% and 7% CPU usage, so it's not a matter of performance either. File is properly detected as 23.976fps if you meant that and not a performance issue :confused:
Maybe post your config and/or make a quick test with MPC-HC, if you're using a different player.

EDIT: My config: Core i5-3570K, Intel HD4000, Windows 8.1 x64, MPC-HC x86 v1.7.3.10 (nightly), internal LAVFilters, madVR.

[HeadlessCow]

Headers at the end of a file is a strange concept.

When the file is being encoded, the encoder doesn't know all the information that needs to be put into the header until it has completed encoding the file. To put the header at the start it needs to either leave blank space at the beginning that it can overwrite (which is a pain if the amount of space it needs is unknown), or write the header and copy the entire rest of the file to shift it.

If the header contains anything with user-modifiable variable length fields, editing it would also required reserved space, or shifting the entire file when the user enters something longer than was originally there.

It's just a lot easier to put them at the end and not have to deal with issues like that :)

[Soukyuu]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/8xz535

18fps with LAV :oDropping frames like crazy here. Latest MPC-HC stable + madvr + software decoding. No significant CPU load, rendering times around 20ms

[clsid]

18fps here too, with all renderers

[Stereodude]

Plays back fine here for me on a i5-4300U with HD4200 graphics at 23.976fps. Software decode with a few % CPU load using 32bit MPC-HD 1.7.3 and the internal LAV filters under Windows 7 x64 Pro.

[Deihmos]

Version 0.6.0 has introduced a bug for me when I resume from sleep. I am using windows media center for playback and when I resume from sleep all my videos fail to play unless I restart windows media center. I downgraded to 0.59 and then it worked fine. Any idea what could be causing this?

[pirlouy]

Nevcairiel, in France, a popular Internet provider allows us to watch TV streaming through RTSP protocol. The recommended software is VLC, and it is true it works well.
With MPC-HC and LAV Filters, initialization is longer and sometimes it even fails (10 secs to start videos or fail, whereas it always works in 2 sec with VLC). I think it's because RTSP protocol is better in VLC. It seems VLC uses these libraries (http://www.live555.com/liveMedia/). Do you think you could do something about it ? Or maybe it has nothing to do with LAV Filters and it's Media Player related...
I know it will be hard for you to find a motivation since I suppose you don't have access to RTSP streams. I may ask MPC-HC developers, maybe a french developer will be interested.

[nevcairiel]

All LAV Filters uses is the FFmpeg library and their implementation of the RTSP protocol. I'll not be hacking around in it myself. If it needs improvements, ask them. :)

[vood007]

..or you could use RTMPDump http://rtmpdump.mplayerhq.hu/ directly like XBMC does, it works very well for them. MPC/Lav should really get some better streaming support because now its close to not present. Yes, i am aware that you do not care :)

@pirlouy
Check XBMC and the IPTVSimple Addon for Live TV. You just add the m3u8 playlist of your provider, EPG and Channellogos can be found at XBMC forums. Works very well.

[nevcairiel]

RTSP is not RTMP. Different things entirely. :)

In any case, LAVs entire architecture is not designed for live streaming formats, and as such they just don't fit in there properly. Too much of its current logic assumes that you can just read data and buffer it, while that doesn't work for live and can cause delays.
If someone wants to work on streaming capabilities for MPC-HC, its much easier to do it outside of LAV Splitter.

[Village Guy]

Is the LAV Audio codec compatible with AMD's HDMI HiDef audio renderer?

I can successfully build a graph using the LAV codec and AMD DirectSound renderer but it fails when I change to the AMD HiDef renderer. When I say it fails, I can see from the amplifier input display that the connection is trying to work and get an occasional burst of what I believe to be audio from the track.

If I simply replace the LAV audio codec with the microsoft audio codec, the AMD HiDef renderer works fine with the exception of TrueHD & DTS-HD.

The input file for all tests is a simple MKV with 5.1 DTS audio.

I'm guessing this is my pilot error as I do not see anyone else reporting this issue.

[Stereodude]

Are you trying to pass DTS-HD MA and DD True-HD streams via HDMI? You need some files from Arcsoft TMT installed / registered if you want to do that with LAV.

[DragonQ]

I'm pretty sure only DTS-HD MA (or maybe all versions of DTS-HD?) requires an external DLL.

[nevcairiel]

And only for decoding, not for Bitstreaming, which Stereodude seems to suggest.

[Village Guy]

Thanks for all the inputs. Right now I would like to keep things simple and avoid DTS-HD/True-HD discussions as they are not really relevant at this stage since plain DTS 5.1 does not work.

I have setup LAV for bitstreaming and it works fine within JRiver but having finally tired of the JRMC user interface and am attempting to move over to XBMC/DSPlayer.

I would really appreciate it if someone more knowledgeable than myself, not too difficult to achieve ;) can tell me if I am missing something really fundamental or consider the AMD renderer to be at fault.

I have graphstudio rendering video with a DTS 5.1 audio track. LAV Splitter is used for the front end splitter and then I have the LAV Audio decoder followed by the AMD renderer. The AMD renderer has two options 1: Directsound 2:HiDEf which I have assumed will work as a WASPI connection.

The graph works just fine with the AMD Directsound connection but fails when using #2 the HiDef audio connection. My understanding is that even though I have a bitstream connection I should avoid the Directsound renderer as it will pass through the windows mixer.

Perhaps someone can correct me if I am missing something?

[mindbomb]

bitstreams of compressed audio are unaffected by the windows mixer, so you can use directsound. I'm not really sure what this audio renderer you are testing is, you're telling me AMD made a directshow audio renderer?

[noee]

Yeah really. Village Guy, are you sure you're not confusing the AMD High Definition Audio Device (HDMI hardware device) with an audio renderer? Two totally different things.

[Stereodude]

And only for decoding, not for Bitstreaming, which Stereodude seems to suggest.Oh, I didn't realize it was only for decoding. I thought it was needed for bitstreaming also.

[Qaq]

Bitstreaming should work fine. For DTS decoding LAV may output 32 float, if selected. I don't know what "AMD HiDef" is, but HDMI audio is only compatible with 16 int and 24 bits padded to 32 for uncompressed streams. So you may try 16 and 24 bits in LAV audio settings.

[Village Guy]

Sorry if my terminology of Audio Renderer is incorrect. I simply referred to them as renderers in the same way as the Graphstudio drop down menu.

To avoid further misunderstanding I have attached the graph showing the two audio renderers / devices. The directsound (shown connected) works fine but the other one does not.

The background to all this is that the JRiver audio seemed to my ears to sound fuller than the XBMC even though both were operating in bitstream mode. Is this my imagination playing tricks perhaps?

Everything I read inferred that directsound devices should be avoided for high quality sound reproduction due to the mixer issue.

From the consensus of you guys it would seem that bitstream either works or does not and since I can decode DTS-HD there really should be no difference in sound between the players, am I correct?

[NikosD]

@nev

After upgrading my old system (AthlonXP - Radeon 3650 AGP (UVD+) - Cat. 13.9) from Windows XP to Windows Vista (unfortunately it can't take Win 7 due to driver conflict), I had the opportunity to try LAV Video and MPC-HC 1.7.3 for the first time using DXVA with UVD+ (because LAV filters don't support Windows XP DXVA1)

I can say that I had a better experience than using PotPlayer for all the clips that UVD+ and LAV Video DXVA can decode.

BUT once again like UVD2.2 (Radeon 4000/5000 series) there were a lot of restrictions for clips that UVD+ could decode:
Codec restriction, Resolution restriction, ReF number restriction - it's like you follow exactly the BluRay specs for H.264

The main restrictions are:

1) No WMV3 HW acceleration (it's disabled for unknown reason)

2) No above 1080p H.264 HW acceleration - like 2048 x 1280

3) No H.264 1080p Ref 5/6 HW acceleration (it's restricted to Ref 4)

4) No H.264 720p Ref 12 HW acceleration (it's restricted to Ref 9)

All of the above files play flawlessly with PotPlayer in DXVA mode and UVD+, so those are not driver/ HW restrictions, only LAV Video restrictions.

So, if you don't want to leave driver to handle those situations by default and you don't want to test every possible combination of ATI HW decoder (UVD, UVD+, UVD2, UVD2.2) and various clips, resolutions etc I have a suggestion for you.

Make a "secret/ hidden" button named "Use DXVA anyway" or "Force HW acceleration" or something like that, in order to give power users a chance to test - in their own responsibility - DXVA acceleration in their systems in situations where you decided to disable it.

That option should have no restriction/ limitation by LAV Video and should leave everything to the driver and the other DXVA options of LAV Video (like codecs and resolution)

I think you have to loose some restrictions and gain more flexibility and options for the people who know what they do.

Of course that option will be disabled by default.

Well, since you didn't answer on that, I tried other solutions and find out MPC-HC v1.6.8 and nightly v1.6.9(both before LAV integration in v1.7.0) which both play perfectly all of the above cases with their internal filters, except WMV3 (it's disabled)

So, I had to switch to the old MPC-HC v1.6.9, in order to use UVD+ in a more complete manner.

[nevcairiel]

Well, since you didn't answer on that

Like I said before:

I will not have time to look into DXVA things for a while, other things take priority for now.

You can stop re-posting every other week.

[NikosD]

Like I said before:



You can stop re-posting every other week.

I didn't repost.

I posted again to say that old MPC-HC with internal filters before LAV video, works OK with my old Radeon 3650 card.

I have two posts one for Haswell and one for Radeon card regarding DXVA, which summarize my last problems with that.

Whenever you have time again for DXVA, I think you will find them useful.

[Village Guy]

Sorry if my terminology of Audio Renderer is incorrect. I simply referred to them as renderers in the same way as the Graphstudio drop down menu.

To avoid further misunderstanding I have attached the graph showing the two audio renderers / devices. The directsound (shown connected) works fine but the other one does not.

The background to all this is that the JRiver audio seemed to my ears to sound fuller than the XBMC even though both were operating in bitstream mode. Is this my imagination playing tricks perhaps?

Everything I read inferred that directsound devices should be avoided for high quality sound reproduction due to the mixer issue.

From the consensus of you guys it would seem that bitstream either works or does not and since I can decode DTS-HD there really should be no difference in sound between the players, am I correct?

Anyone?

[Mercury_22]

LAVVideo DXVA (N&CB) has big problems (big image "glitches") with this AVC (L3.2) file (http://www.multiupload.nl/OKHM9WLH69) on subtitle (PGS) enable / change and on seeking

P.S. Latest LAV git here

[mindbomb]

@Village Guy
both those players have wasapi exclusive mode anyway. This benefits formats that cannot be bitstreamed, like flac. When you bitstream, the mixer can't do anything, so you don't have to use a special renderer to avoid the mixer.

[Village Guy]

@Village Guy
both those players have wasapi exclusive mode anyway. This benefits formats that cannot be bitstreamed, like flac. When you bitstream, the mixer can't do anything, so you don't have to use a special renderer to avoid the mixer.

I appreciate you taking the time to clarify, I was beginning to think I had stumped everyone :D

One last point, are these blocks called audio renderers or audio devices.

:thanks:

[Aleksoid1978]

nevcairiel
Image corrupted after seek - in DXVA and software mode. I think bug in ffmpeg.
http://aleksoid.voserver.net/Sample/H264/Interlace/韓雪+-+跳舞街+%2540香港2009東亞運動會開幕禮.ts

[giosa]

Hi guys,

I've a question.

What's the point of being able to decode DTS-HD MA with LAV audio + dtsdecorderdll.dll? if one still have to get AV receiver to make 5.1 or 7.1 speakers to work. As with AVR you can beatsstream and have AVR to decode an audio.

The ability of LAV filter to work with arcsoft decoder to decode HD audio would be really "big" thing if it could avoid necessity of buying AVR, but if you can't go without it in any case if you want 5.1 or 7.1 speakers. I don't get it.

And one more question.

when decoding DTS-HD MA lav filter status shows PCM in output, does it mean I getting full decoding, should not it show LPCM?

[clsid]

You don't need surround speakers. LAV can downmix to stereo.

No, PCM is correct.

[Stereodude]

There were some video cards that could pass 7.1 LPCM, but not bitstream. Likewise the pre HDMI 1.3 receivers accept LPCM 7.1, but don't accept bitstreamed formats. Also it gives you full quality audio for headphone listening or even if you're using PC speakers.

[giosa]

Thanks guys for clarification.

End note is, if you want surround sound 5.1 or 7.1 you by all means will need to buy AVR, it's not possible to use surround speakers with PC without it, is that right?

[SamKook]

End note is, if you want surround sound 5.1 or 7.1 you by all means will need to buy AVR, it's not possible to use surround speakers with PC without it, is that right?

Why wouldn't it be possible as long as you have a soundcard that can support it?
Just plug the speaker the right way and configure everything to output the desired format properly.

[STaRGaZeR]

There's still no way to decode DTS-HD MA in 64-bit players due to the Arcsoft dll being 32-bit only, right?

[QBhd]

The point is to get lossless decoding, without pairing LAV with dtsdecoder.dll you wouldn't... I have Logitech z-5300e speakers (analog 5.1) paired with a SB X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Pro and DTS-HDMA sounds far superior to the DTS core.

QB

[giosa]

What are drawbacks of going sound card route vs AVR?

well, probably there're many. But what are the main ones?

[Triplefun]

I am having minimal luck rendering RadioNZ live broadcasts - see http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/live/national.asx

This plays fine with VLC with the reported codec wma2. It fails to render in both WMP and MPC-HC. I have installed the latest version of LAV.

[DragonQ]

What are drawbacks of going sound card route vs AVR?

well, probably there're many. But what are the main ones?
What do you mean? They are totally different things and you need both. A soundcard either sends audio to active speakers (i.e. with their own power supply and amplifier), or to an AVR which will amplify the audio signal and send it to passive speakers (among many other things). In the former case, you'd generally use 3.5 mm cables, in the latter case you'd use HDMI (or TOSLINK if you were feeling nostalgic).

IMO active speakers are a total rip-off when it comes to quality and value.

[QBhd]

My active speakers cost me $300 almost 10 years ago, and they still amaze me. If you do your research you can come across some awesome bang-for-your-buck active speakers.

QB

[jkauff]

My active speakers cost me $300 almost 10 years ago, and they still amaze me. If you do your research you can come across some awesome bang-for-your-buck active speakers.
I agree. My 15 year old Midiland S2 speakers (two satellites and a subwoofer) sound as good as my main system. I only listen to stereo (don't care for surround), so they do me just fine. Plus, they're built like tanks.

P.S. Midiland changed their name to M-Audio a couple years after I bought my speakers. They certainly know PC audio--I have an M-Audio sound card, too, that records and plays at 24/192, and I bought it over 10 years ago.

[gendouhydeist]

Hi guys, I'm having a audio hiccups on windows 8 which is not happening on windows 7 using my HDTV through S/PDIF (HDMI).
I tried to isolate the issue, it turns out when I play video on my HDTV and only using speakers there's no hiccups at all.
So I uninstall my audio driver and use the windows high definition driver but still having the same problem.

So now how can I help to fix this one or how can I provide dump file for this.
Thanks!

[Qaq]

I'm having a audio hiccups on windows 8 which is not happening on windows 7
I would suggest to check DPC.

[DragonQ]

I haven't yet found an application that properly measures DPC latency in Windows 8 or Windows 8.1. Something changed from Windows 7 and they all seem to report values that are too high.

[gendouhydeist]

In DPC website:


Windows 8 Compatibility: The DPC latency utility runs on Windows 8 but does not show correct values. The output suggests that the Windows 8 kernel performs badly and introduces a constant latency of one millisecond, which is not the case in practice. DPCs in the Windows 8 kernel behave identical to Windows 7. The utility produces incorrect results because the implementation of kernel timers has changed in Windows 8, which causes a side effect with the measuring algorithm used by the utility. Thesycon is working on a new version of the DPC latency utility and will make it available on this site as soon as it is finished.


As I said it was fine on Windows 7 not in Windows 8, also the latency issues it based on hardware implementation not software.

[Vasilich]

ever checked this one http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon ?
It claims to support also w8+

As I said it was fine on Windows 7 not in Windows 8, also the latency issues it based on hardware implementation not software.
Bad drivers also could cause DPC delays, so - you can make it worse also with software

[DragonQ]

I've tried LatencyMon and it also shows way too high values for DPC latency on Windows 8/8.1.

[gendouhydeist]

If I have bad drivers not only playing movies on mpc+madvr+lavfilters would be affected. It would be all applications that output sounds.
As I said it was fine on windows 7 but not windows 8, it is an isolated issue.

[Qaq]

Isolated? So you tried other audio decoders, splitters?