LAV Filters - DirectShow Media Splitter and Decoders

[e-t172]

Technically wrong? Then why are there such modes on many receivers?

For the same reasons such receivers support things like 192 kHz: because people ask for it. It doesn't mean that they're right. I would rather have people spend their time developing features that actually improve audio quality, or lower costs.

[ryrynz]

For the same reasons such receivers support things like 192 kHz: because people ask for it. It doesn't mean that they're right. I would rather have people spend their time developing features that actually improve audio quality, or lower costs.

There is no right and wrong when it comes to the sound stage. It's whatever sounds "good" to you.

[SamuriHL]

I'd like to congratulate nevcairiel on his new role and wish him continued success with the LAV Filters. The world will be a better place.

Did I miss something?

Carved in blood by a wakizashi...

[Nachbar]

Nev, some time ago I requested the option of providing stereo sound duplication for surround speakers and you agreed to look into it.
Is it possible to see this implemented sometime soon? It would save time checking if video is stereo output and if it is switching the receiver
into 7 channel stereo mode and then having to switch it back for 6 channel AAC, Dolby etc, thanks.

I would suggest using reclock as the audio renderer and having it use the wasapi exclusive output with set matching speaker configuration set. Then it will send only stereo (and not stereo inside of a 5.1 or whatever your setup is). Your receiver should automatically use dolby pro logic to upmix it. For my pioneer receiver it has a panorama option that does this found deep in the advanced audio options while the sound is playing on dolby prologic 2 music mode.

You could also alternatively use ffdshow's audio filter as its mixing option has the ability to upmix into whatever speaker setup you want.

[andyvt]

Did I miss something?


Jim was probably referring to this (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=83481.0).

[filler56789]

Jim was probably referring to this (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=83481.0).

Not "probably", but *surely*
( I did read his original, unedited post ;) )

( and oh BTW, that T-shirt in that pic is exceedingly trollish :p )

[jmone]

As a JRiver user I'm thrilled that nevcairiel is bringing his talents as part of the MC dev team! Happy Days!

[NanoBot]

Hi,

Nev, some time ago I requested the option of providing stereo sound duplication for surround speakers and you agreed to look into it. Is it possible to see this implemented sometime soon? It would save time checking if video is stereo output and if it is switching the receiver
into 7 channel stereo mode and then having to switch it back for 6 channel AAC, Dolby etc, thanks.

Even I already noticed nevcairiels comment that this feature is not high priority on his list, I would like to second this feature request and I also would like to extend it.

I am in a similiar situation like ryrynz:

My pc is connected to my av amp through the HDMI output of my NVidia card. When I am watching movies with multichannel audio, e.g. multichannel flac, I have to configure the HDMI output to 5.1 channels. But when I am watching a movie with stereo and perhaps prologic audio, I have to switch the HDMI output back to 2 channels, because the av amp can only be switched to "double stereo" or "prologic II movie" when it is feeded with 2 channel LPCM signals.

From my point of view the optimal situation would be that the LAV audio decoder could optionally convert a stereo signal either to "double stereo" or decode it using the prologic matrix by itself. In that case the HDMI output could be configured once and only as 5.1, regardless of the movie I want actually to watch.

And congratulations to the new job, Nevacariel.


C.U. NanoBot

[nevcairiel]

My pc is connected to my av amp through the HDMI output of my NVidia card. When I am watching movies with multichannel audio, e.g. multichannel flac, I have to configure the HDMI output to 5.1 channels. But when I am watching a movie with stereo and perhaps prologic audio, I have to switch the HDMI output back to 2 channels, because the av amp can only be switched to "double stereo" or "prologic II movie" when it is feeded with 2 channel LPCM signals.

You should simply use WASAPI exclusive mode output, it'll automatically reconfigure the HDMI output to the appropriate amount of channels then, and the receiver can do its thing. This worked beautifully for me for years.
A generic audio renderer that can do this is ReClock, and if you don't want ReClocks other (primary) function of adjusting the audio, you can also turn that off and use it as a pure WASAPI renderer.

Many players offer their own audio renderer though, some of which come with native WASAPI support as well.

[ryrynz]

In that case the HDMI output could be configured once and only as 5.1, regardless of the movie I want actually to watch.


Same deal here, PC software is much more flexible. I don't like to have to muck around with settings for each video I want to watch.

I jumped into ffdshow's mixer and set it up to do this, the sound is quite different though. I think finding the similar values for each channel to produce the same effect as my receiver might take a bit of time.

[SamuriHL]

Jim was probably referring to this (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=83481.0).

Yea I went and found it after I posted here. Great news!

Carved in blood by a wakizashi...

[NanoBot]

You should simply use WASAPI exclusive mode output, it'll automatically reconfigure the HDMI output to the appropriate amount of channels then, and the receiver can do its thing. This worked beautifully for me for years. A generic audio renderer that can do this is ReClock, and if you don't want ReClocks other (primary) function of adjusting the audio, you can also turn that off and use it as a pure WASAPI renderer. Many players offer their own audio renderer though, some of which come with native WASAPI support as well.

I am using MPC-HC and just installed ReClock. And now everything works like it should, the speaker configuration of the HDMI connection is automaticly adjusted to the number of channel available.

:thanks:

[e-t172]

There is no right and wrong when it comes to the sound stage. It's whatever sounds "good" to you.

I disagree. It's not whatever sounds good to you, it's whatever is the most true to the source. It's an audio reproduction system, not an audio "pleasure" system or whatever. When you're playing stereo audio over rear speakers you're damaging audio fidelity, hence it goes against the purpose of an audio reproduction system.

[clsid]

Let me guess, you are also using some gold-plated pixie dust sprinkled Monster audio cables?

[e-t172]

Quite the opposite. My cables cost £5 each, I'm using a £50 sound card, and my output is set to 48 kHz. I'm spending money where it actually makes a difference: the speakers. When I read reviews for audio hardware I always skip any subjective impressions and only use the measurements (if there any...). I will not listen to any argument that is not backed either by objective measurements/specifications or by documented double-blind tests. Which means that I stay very much away from "idiophile" equipment like $1000 cables, tube amplifiers, or vinyl players. I regularly verify the performance of my system by measuring frequency response and non-linear distortion using a measurement microphone. My favorite reading is the AES journal, not Stereophile.

The people you've mistaken me for are referred to as "subjectivist" audiophiles (I like the term "idiophile (http://wathifi.tumblr.com/)", since, by definition, they don't make rational choices). I, on the other hand, am in the "objectivist" camp. Here's a good summary of the differences. (http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/what-we-hear.html)

[Redemption80]

That is a horribly cold and depressing way to treat audio.

Music, and to a lesser degree movie soundtracks are all about getting pleasure from sound, if listening to something the way your "supposed" to is unpleasant then what is the point.

It's like DRC or other late night modes, i dislike anything like that but a higher dynamic range can sound horrible to many people, so they prefer to enable it even if it's not accurate.
Same thing with watching a movie with headphones or on stereo speakers, it might be wrong but many prefer it.

I can't say i would like the feature that ryrynz is asking for as whenever i have tried that on a receiver it has always sounded fake and horrible, but DPII upmixing would be more suited as many, if not most movies with a 2.0 soundtrack tend to have some sort of matrix encoding.

I understand this is not simple though.

[dansrfe]

You know, this is exactly the same kind of debate that happens when people prefer their display to output higher color temperatures (more blue) knowing that everything being shown through it is going to be inaccurate.

I used to be in the same camp till I calibrated to the standard color temperature and after a few days I got used to it and now I realize that everything I had been seeing was many shades bluer.

Moral of the story, the standard or correct practices may seem alien at first, but our eyes and ears constantly adjust to whatever we see and hear so that it sounds and looks "right". When you compare the calibrated result after a period of time, the "non-calibrated" setup will seem worse.

[ryrynz]

I disagree. It's not whatever sounds good to you, it's whatever is the most true to the source. It's an audio reproduction system, not an audio "pleasure" system or whatever. When you're playing stereo audio over rear speakers you're damaging audio fidelity, hence it goes against the purpose of an audio reproduction system.

Then I guess we should just completely ignore Dolby Prologic and DTS Neo then, both could be viewed as a complete waste of time and effort, the fact that some people prefer those rather than playing in stereo not worth mentioning because stereo is the only true way to play 2 channel sources. Maybe Nev should remove those Matrix encoding options from LAV too as it's either the intended way or the highway. :p

[DragonQ]

I can see why some people might prefer to route stereo to all of their speakers, it gives an impression closer to that of headphone listening for a start. I don't do it because my surround speakers are average compared to my front speakers.

The only time I use any kind of signal processing on my AVR is Dolby Pro Logic II when using my Wii and that's only because in their infinite wisdom Nintendo decided to only allow the console to output audio via stereo cables, despite some games supporting surround sound. As long as the game supports Dolby Pro Logic II, once the receiver decodes it, I get true surround sound (although the encoding is a lossy process of course). I wouldn't use it for a game that only supported stereo.

[e-t172]

Music, and to a lesser degree movie soundtracks are all about getting pleasure from sound, if listening to something the way your "supposed" to is unpleasant then what is the point.

I 100% agree with you. However, when I play something through a neutral system and I hear something I don't like, I blame the music, not the audio system. By definition, if the system is neutral, then it's not its fault if the sound is bad: it's just reproducing what we tell it to reproduce. Shoot the message, not the messenger.

It's like DRC or other late night modes, i dislike anything like that but a higher dynamic range can sound horrible to many people, so they prefer to enable it even if it's not accurate.
Same thing with watching a movie with headphones or on stereo speakers, it might be wrong but many prefer it.

These options are often used for purely practical reasons, which is 100% fine by me. Just don't pretend you're improving audio quality by using them.

Moral of the story, the standard or correct practices may seem alien at first, but our eyes and ears constantly adjust to whatever we see and hear so that it sounds and looks "right". When you compare the calibrated result after a period of time, the "non-calibrated" setup will seem worse.

I believe you're referring to chromatic adaptation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_adaptation) (which doesn't cover every situation, by the way). There is no evidence that I know of that something similar applies to audio.

Then I guess we should just completely ignore Dolby Prologic and DTS Neo then

AFAIK, Dolby Pro Logic and DTS Neo are meant to use information that has been put there in the production chain, so they do reproduce what's specified in the source.

I can see why some people might prefer to route stereo to all of their speakers, it gives an impression closer to that of headphone listening for a start.

That's not what the research shows (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/harman-researchers-make-important-headway-understanding-headphone-response):

The underlying premise or hypothesis was quite simple: since stereo recordings are optimized to sound good through loudspeakers in a room, they will only sound good through headphones that simulate the response of a loudspeaker system in a room. This study provides empirical evidence that this premise is well grounded.

[DragonQ]

That's not what the research shows (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/harman-researchers-make-important-headway-understanding-headphone-response):

The underlying premise or hypothesis was quite simple: since stereo recordings are optimized to sound good through loudspeakers in a room, they will only sound good through headphones that simulate the response of a loudspeaker system in a room. This study provides empirical evidence that this premise is well grounded.

Well that's interesting. Is that only true of higher end headphones though? I mean, I don't think my el-cheapo earphones sound like my speakers in terms of soundstage.

[e-t172]

Well that's the goal, at least. Of course cheaper headphones might sit farther than this ideal, but that's why they're cheap, I guess.

[dansrfe]

So, the conclusion is that audio/video systems must faithfully reproduce the given content and anything that may seem wrong or incorrect is the fault of the audio source which should be fixed by software if necessary.

I agree.

[Tom Keller]

LAV Video Decoder + LAV Splitter + MPC-HC 1.7.0 are having some strange problems together... at least on my system:

I have 2 displays (monitor & tv) and use madVR for most of the time. When playing a file from the playlist on display 1 (monitor) and switch to fullscreen on display 2 (tv), after the playback of the current file the player closes itself WITHOUT playing the following files from the playlist. Sometimes the player closes itself too, after manually switching from one file on the playlist to another, even with other video renderers (like Haali or EVR Cust.). So i assumed: this is not directly related to the video renderer itself.

I did some testing... and it seemed like this is only happening, while using the internal LAV Video Decoder. There are no such problems with ffdshow or CoreAVC as video decoders. And it's the same with the external LAV Video Decoder (tested: 0.58.0 - 0.58.2). Even more strangely: with PRE-1.7.0-mpc-hc-versions everything works fine. But every mpc-hc version since the first v1.7.0 behaves like that.

So i did some more testing with different media splitters: no problem with Haali Media Splitter in combination with the LAV Video Decoder! Could that be? Is there's some weird problem in combining LAV Video Decoder + LAV Splitter + MPC-HC 1.7.0???

[Devrim]

In the second post it says

Q: Can LAV Audio decode DTS-HD?
A: Kind of. On its own, it cannot. But, LAV Audio supports using the ArcSoft DTS decoder, which allows decoding of full DTS-HD. Just drop the "dtsdecoderdll.dll" from the TMT3/5 Codecs directory into LAV Audio's directory, and enjoy. NOTE: This only works on 32-bit!

Is this still the same for LAV Audio?

[sneaker_ger]

Yes, it's still true.

[ryrynz]

AFAIK, Dolby Pro Logic and DTS Neo are meant to use information that has been put there in the production chain, so they do reproduce what's specified in the source.


That was the primary purpose behind it, but that still leaves people with the option of applying these matrix decoding algorithms to stereo sources. Read up on any audiophile forum and you'll find many people prefer using these technologies to "enhance" their sound stage from standard two channel sources, in fact there were high end devices such as the Lexicon CP3 (http://www.lexicon.com/Products/Details/168) which was highly regarded as doing an excellent job on "recreating the original recording space".

Anyway, I find stereo sound is too focused to sound natural. I have a 7.1 setup and it sounds better when they're all active but only when it's set up right. When I set up 7 channel stereo via ffdshow with all channels set to full volume it sounded pretty bad.

Well that's interesting. Is that only true of higher end headphones though? I mean, I don't think my el-cheapo earphones sound like my speakers in terms of soundstage.

I don't think any headphones could ever sound like floor speakers in terms of sound stage.

[mecedo]

I've found one problem. If LavAudio is used with Reclock (checked option: "Use AC3 Encoding") then audio is very loud and distorted. I don't know if it's problem with Reclock or LavAudio so I posted this bug in Reclock forum too. But with another audio decoder problem doesn't exist so I think this is problem with LavAudio.

And I've observed that using "Apply DRC on formats that support it" prevents distortions but it's not solution.

[Devrim]

Will LAV Filters ever support these subs?

Text #1
ID : 33 (0x21)-1
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : EIA-708
Muxing mode : A/53 / DTVCC Transport
Muxing mode, more info : Muxed in Video #1
Duration : 51mn 38s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Stream size : 0.00 Byte (0%)

Text #2
ID : 33 (0x21)-2
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : EIA-708
Muxing mode : A/53 / DTVCC Transport
Muxing mode, more info : Muxed in Video #1
Duration : 51mn 38s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Stream size : 0.00 Byte (0%)


Or is it not possible

[shpitz]

Anyway, I find stereo sound is too focused to sound natural. I have a 7.1 setup and it sounds better when they're all active but only when it's set up right. When I set up 7 channel stereo via ffdshow with all channels set to full volume it sounded pretty bad.

I prefer listening to LP via Phono input of the receiver using Studio-Mix DSP mode. Music I play with WinAMP using Maiko WASAPI output plugin in exclusive mode, stereo in Studio-Mix, SACD/DVD-A rips as multichannel PCM (flac) using THX Music DSP in the receiver. There's a quick guide here (http://www.head-fi.org/t/588677/a-short-audiophile-guide-to-winamp-w-maiko-wasapi).
In the receiver, I turn on Audyssey in Music mode and turn on Dynamic EQ, sounds incredible.

On the video side, I use MPC-BE to play MKV remuxes that I create from BD's, you can see how to configure it here: AVSForum (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1091403/edid-override-thread/2850#post_23732151).
This gives me 24Hz output with bitstreaming for all formats, plays flawlessly.
For 3D movies, I use TotalMedia Theatre to play the ISO's.
I have a 7.2 setup.

[iSunrise]

Hi, I have a question:

If I play a blu-ray movie by manually opening a m2ts container file that is in it´s original directory "...\BDMV\STREAM", LAV Splitter is able to read all audio and subtitle language streams with it´s corresponding languages shown in the filter section of MPC-HC or PotPlayer, like this:

http://abload.de/thumb/lav_splitter_audio_stydoks.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=lav_splitter_audio_stydoks.png)

However, when I move out the same file into another directory and play it, LAV Splitter suddenly isn´t able to read the languages. It still shows all the streams and subtitles, but misses the language information. It looks like this:

http://abload.de/thumb/lav_splitter_audio_stg5jtb.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=lav_splitter_audio_stg5jtb.png)

I am a bit puzzled by this. How and where does LAV Splitter (Source) get this info in this case and why doesn´t it work when I move the file somewhere else? Since, judging by that, this info doesn´t seem to be embedded into the m2ts itself?

[nevcairiel]

The info is in the Blu-ray playlist files, which are obviously not available anymore if you move the m2ts.

[iSunrise]

The info is in the Blu-ray playlist files, which are obviously not available anymore if you move the m2ts.
Thanks, so LAV is always searching for the corresponding MPLS automatically when you leave the blu-ray structure intact. That´s rather clever, never thought that LAV Splitter could do that on it´s own.

Thanks for clearing that up. LAV surprises me every day I use it.

[sebas_led]

New AMD Catalyst™ Driver 13.9:
http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles/Pages/AMDCatalyst13-9WINReleaseNotes.aspx

Download center:
http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/Pages/index.aspx

[nevcairiel]

This is not a driver announcement thread, please don't do that.

[FreeFall]

nevcairiel,

Playback stalls with this Blu-ray Disc sample using MPC-HC. At around 2 min during the roll of the credits it only happens when played back from its playlist file (00004.mpls). Playback will resume after about a minute and play normally.

The Disc uses two streams one for the episode and one for the credits both the m2ts files playback fine on their own.

H264 / DTS-HD 2.0
http://www.sendspace.com/file/4uwhhe

The video plays without any problems using MPC-BE or it's splitter in combination with LAV Video / Audio decoders.


Subtitle lines at 33 and 39 sec are delayed with Madvr or EVR using internal(Madvr) or xy-VSfilter(EVR) sub renderers, EVR-CP seems fine for some reason.

H264 / LPCM 2.0
http://www.sendspace.com/file/ub3gpg

Tested the same as above using MPC-BE's internal splitter in combination with LAV Audio / Video without any problems.


Thanks.

[nevcairiel]

I assume you tested with the 0.58.2 release, because the first issue should already be fixed in Git, and a quick test shows it works like expected. :)

Not sure about the second one, if it works with the internal subtitle renderer with EVR-CP, the splitter must deliver the subtitles in time and with the proper timestamps, so its unlikely to be an issue there.
How much delay do you actually see there? Can't be more then a second or so.

[FreeFall]

That's right 0.85.2 and MPC-HC build 1.7.0.7833, I'll wait for an updated build. I'm not sure about the timing problem either, it's a short delay 1-2 seconds and only affects Madvr and EVR with MPC-HC, doesn't happen with MPC-BE's splitter for some reason.

Thanks for testing.

[sdancer75]

Can I use external subtitle files like *..srt ?

Regards,

[clsid]

LAV Filters does nothing with (external) subtitles. It only handles DVD subtitles, because that is needed for rendering DVD menu overlays.

For subtitles you need to install xy-VSFilter, or use the internal subtitle functionality of MPC-HC (or similar advanced players).

[hubblec4]

Hi nev

i found a bug for mkv ordered chapters.

i muxed this chapter.xml with mmg and LAVsplitter shows wrong chaptertimes and duration is too short.

the video plays fine with AVSplitter. right timestamps and duration.

it seems lavsplitter set the starttime of a chapter to the endtime of the next chapter.

the second chapter is missing in LAVsplitter.

i hope its not a big bug.

[nevcairiel]

it seems lavsplitter set the starttime of a chapter to the endtime of the next chapter.


Thats how ordered chapters are supposed to work.
You take the individual chapters and play them one after another, so when the first chapter ends, the second one starts immediately - the start of the second chapter is at the end of the first chapter.

The first chapter is 01:38 long, it plays from 00:00 to 01:38
The second chapter is 07:41 long, it plays from 01:38 to 09:19
etc.

Any content which is not part of the chapters is skipped, which means the duration of the movie gets shorter if the chapters define it that way.

I see nothing wrong with the behaviour of LAV Splitter and this XML file.
The second chapter is skipped because it has the same start and end time, so there is no content in the chapter.

If you disable ordered chapters in the XML, LAV would behave the same way as AV Splitter. But with ordered chapters, the behaviour is correct.
Are you sure you really want ordered chapters? :) Ordered chapters define a fixed timeline how the movie is to be played, they can skip parts of the movie, or repeat parts, or re-order parts, they define a complete virtual timeline for the movie which can be completely different to the file played from start to back.

[whurlston]

From the looks of it, the xml has the start time of the second chapter wrong. It looks like it should be 00:01:38.473000000

[sneaker_ger]

Is anyone running EMET (http://www.microsoft.com/emet) successfully with LAV? MPC-HC recently got a work-around for a problem that made it impossible to run it with EMET, but it still crashes (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1644726&postcount=799) for me. When uninstalling LAV and using Haali + MS decoders instead, the crash does not occur.

[hubblec4]

ok nev

i think your are right.
I'm confused, Haali shows other timestamps too. 3 different splitters and 3 different results ....mmh

the second chapter is a test, i would to know what happens when starttime = endtime. i know there is no duration for this chapter.
the chapter will be ignored by LAV (and thats the right behaviour?). so the bug is at AVSplitter and Haali?

[nevcairiel]

There isn't exactly a full specification how to handle every special case, but if a chapter has zero duration, its currently not taken into account for ordered chapters in LAV.

[hubblec4]

ok it make sense to skip chapters with zero duration.

Haali added a playtime(starttime stamp) from the second chapter to the virtuell timeline. i think thats not correct.

so LAV work best at the moment.

damn, no splitter in the world avalible that work correct for all situations.

[gilic]

Is anyone running EMET (http://www.microsoft.com/emet) successfully with LAV? MPC-HC recently got a work-around for a problem that made it impossible to run it with EMET, but it still crashes (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1644726&postcount=799) for me. When uninstalling LAV and using Haali + MS decoders instead, the crash does not occur.

I've been using the beta of EMET4 without problems.

edit: I checked the settings and only SEHOP is unticked for the MPC-HC process.

[sneaker_ger]

That does not seem to do it for me, running EMET 4 final.

[mecedo]

Maybe the problem is that LavAudio ignores "Dialog Normalization" metadata in AC3 stream? When "SPDiF Passtrough" is used then volume is set properly. But when LAV Audio decodes AC3 stream then there's no difference in volume between these two samples:
https://hotfile.com/dl/246928760/b15029f/1_Without_dialog_normalization.ac3.html
https://hotfile.com/dl/246929630/9b462d2/2_With_dialog_normalization.ac3.html

I've found one problem. If LavAudio is used with Reclock (checked option: "Use AC3 Encoding") then audio is very loud and distorted. I don't know if it's problem with Reclock or LavAudio so I posted this bug in Reclock forum too. But with another audio decoder problem doesn't exist so I think this is problem with LavAudio.

And I've observed that using "Apply DRC on formats that support it" prevents distortions but it's not solution.