LAV Filters - DirectShow Media Splitter and Decoders

[nevcairiel]

I am experiences strange crashes with very small VC1 files. These are mostly test-patterns. I set mpc to repeat playing them in a loop (playback -> repeat forever). Using LAV Splitter mpc-hc crashes right before the second loop.

No crash for me

[s4e]

Today I install the XBMC 11.0, and play the 2160p sample, I found most samples(2160p 120fps) play at cpu usage 1-3%, and GPU usage 20-43% with i7 3770. But with mpc-hc + LAV qs, that a different story:
EVR render: play 2160p 60fps OK, cpu usage 30%, GPU usage 40-50%. 2160p 120fps nonplayable.
EVR CR/ EVE Sync don't play 60fps smoothly.

Why MPC-HC or EVR or LAV or something else so costly???

[nevcairiel]

You can't compare DXVA (used by XBMC) with QuickSync, its apples and oranges. Thats all.
120 fps probably just overloads the GPUs memory controller.

You'll have to use DXVA in MPC-HC as well to achieve the same performance.
Note that LAV DXVA does not allow 4k content yet.

[s4e]

You can't compare DXVA with QuickSync, its apples and oranges. Thats all.
dxva or qs or anything else with mpc-hc is the same, huge cpu usage and non-smoothly. VLC is better but but still ten times cpu usage than XBMC.

[wanezhiling]

I found most samples(2160p 120fps) play at cpu usage 1-3%, and GPU usage 20-43% with i7 3770.

:scared: Really? incredible.

[nevcairiel]

:scared: Really? incredible.

In DXVA native mode thats nothing special.
Although those files are really pointless, there is no hardware available today that can output such a file without either dropping frames or reducing resolution (for 99% of people, even both)

4K is a tech demo, its not worth panicking over some file not playing smoothly (yet).

[aufkrawall]

4K is a tech demo, its not worth panicking over some file not playing smoothly (yet).
I'd rather see 4:4:4 chroma video with hardware acceleration.
1600p should be enough for very most current display sizes.

Stupid codec industry. I got a Lord of the Rings BD with 35mbit VC-1.
With x264 10bit and best compression I'm sure you could store 1080p60 4:4:4 with 35mbit.

Or not? :)

[nevcairiel]

4:2:2 would be plenty, the big visual difference is from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2

Its just marketing however, bigger resolutions can be sold better to people.

[Casshern]

No crash for me

Strange. Maybe I should have been more specific. I use ffdshow libavcodec for vc1 video, lav audio for audio and lavsplitter to split. I experimented some more and found this:

lavsplitter + lavvideo for vc1 works
lavsplitter + ffdshow vc1-libavcodec crashes
mpc-splitter + ffdshow vc1-libavcodec works

its gets stranger:

lavsplitter + ffdshow vc1 wmv 9 works at first but after 30-40 loops (remember I have it set to repeat to forever in mpcs playback options) it crashes
mpc-splitter + ffdshow vc1 wmv 9 works but only plays once
lavsplitter + lavvideo decoder works ( I let it run for 5 minutes) !

So maybe its ffdshow after all. Seems to be a nice torture test.

best regards,

Casshern

[Casshern]

This open-source plugin for foobar 2000 decodes dts-hd and true-hd. Is there any chance we will get rid of the arcsoft dll to decode these formats....

http://sourceforge.net/projects/dvdadecoder/

[nevcairiel]

This open-source plugin for foobar 2000 decodes dts-hd and true-hd. Is there any chance we will get rid of the arcsoft dll to decode these formats....

http://sourceforge.net/projects/dvdadecoder/

Quote from its readme:
This plugin contains proprietary DTS-HD library code. To use this plugin you should have license for ArcSoft TMT software.

Seems like its just hiding the ArcSoft DLL in its own DLL.
I do not bundle the ArcSoft DLL because of legal issues. If you own TMT, you can use the DLL from there, and thats that.

ffmpeg/libav has started some work on DTS-HD decoding, for example it can now decode parts of the DTS-HD block already (the XBR extension, extra bitrate)

PS:
TrueHD can already be decoded flawlessly without the ArcSoft DLL.

[chaddawkins]

I use LAV and Icaros [for thumbnails]. Recently there has been a change to Icaros; it is no longer dependent on LAV. I believe they accomplished this by including avcodec, avformat, etc from ffmpeg instead of piggy-backing on your avformat-lav, avcodec-lav, etc. This is unfortunate because now I need all these lib TWICE. Would it make any difference to you if you remove the "-lav" from your files; I am hoping to put both party's files in the same folder and Icaros piggy-back off of LAV again. I can't ask the Icaros party to name their files avformat-lav, that wouldn't make sense. Is this feasible?

[STaRGaZeR]

4:2:2 would be plenty, the big visual difference is from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2

Disagree. In sources where different subsampling actually makes a difference, like in highly detailed colored letters, you could say 4:2:2 is better than 4:2:0, but it in no way can touch 4:4:4. It's the difference between being like the source and being completely different because of the later reconstruction. It also has that horrible effect in which you see stuff deformed in horizontal, but not in vertical, again because of the latter reconstruction. 4:2:0 at least is fucked up both vertically and horizontally.

That said, 4:4:4 is out of the question. Studio footage is 4:2:2, so it's highly unlikely we will ever get more than that, and that's if we ever get more than 4:2:0.

[Shark007]

I use LAV and Icaros [for thumbnails]. Recently there has been a change to Icaros; it is no longer dependent on LAV.

The ffmpeg libraries produced for LAV are not compatible with Icaros 2.x. With terabyte hdd's the norm for many years already, I am surprised 8mb is such a problem for you to deal with. Icaros 2.x is not dependant on any Directshow filters being installed either. It is now a standalone product capable of thumbnailing anything ffmpeg can decode.

[Andy o]

Disagree. In sources where different subsampling actually makes a difference, like in highly detailed colored letters, you could say 4:2:2 is better than 4:2:0, but it in no way can touch 4:4:4. It's the difference between being like the source and being completely different because of the later reconstruction. It also has that horrible effect in which you see stuff deformed in horizontal, but not in vertical, again because of the latter reconstruction. 4:2:0 at least is fucked up both vertically and horizontally.

That said, 4:4:4 is out of the question. Studio footage is 4:2:2, so it's highly unlikely we will ever get more than that, and that's if we ever get more than 4:2:0.

I see it this way: wouldn't 2160p 4:2:0 already have 1080p-equivalent chroma resolution? Couldn't it be downscaled by the renderer to 1080p 4:4:4?

[chaddawkins]

The ffmpeg libraries produced for LAV are not compatible with Icaros 2.x.

Well, why not? Are LAV's lib not good enough? That's sad news, i used icaros because of it's compatibility and ease of use with LAV. I'll just keep using the previous version, it worked fine for me anyways. 8mb is not the issue, you're smarter than that. :rolleyes:

[aufkrawall]

That said, 4:4:4 is out of the question. Studio footage is 4:2:2, so it's highly unlikely we will ever get more than that, and that's if we ever get more than 4:2:0.
Maybe some day there's enough bandwidth and space to let studio equipment record in RGB.
Also that whole YCbCr model could be replaced by YCgCo.

Enough room for improvements, but like nev said, this doesn't seem to be decided by people who are really interested in this... :(

[Soukyuu]

On the "no DVD audio w/ LAV 0.50.3 and above", it's not LAV. It's that open source dvd navigator, once I use it instead of the microsoft one, the audio on DVDs disappears, no matter the audio/video filter+renderer.

[droc]

nevcairiel, how to config LAv filers in J.River Media centre? I don`t see it.

[STaRGaZeR]

I see it this way: wouldn't 2160p 4:2:0 already have 1080p-equivalent chroma resolution?

Yes, but we are back at square one: chroma is still downsampled and quality is lost in the same proportion as in any other 4:2:0 media.

Couldn't it be downscaled by the renderer to 1080p 4:4:4?

Sure, but what's the point? You want to make 2160p mainstream to downscale it back to 1080p so luma and chroma resolutions match? Sounds stupid to me for quite a few reasons. Besides, chroma is downsampled in a way that chroma and luma samples aren't taken from the same location (example (http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/dynimg/IC500902.png)).

[SamuriHL]

nevcairiel, how to config LAv filers in J.River Media centre? I don`t see it.

You should ask on the J River forum. They use a private copy of LAV for Red October that can only be configured if you use a custom setup.

[Andy o]

Yes, but we are back at square one: chroma is still downsampled and quality is lost in the same proportion as in any other 4:2:0 media.

Sure, but what's the point? You want to make 2160p mainstream to downscale it back to 1080p so luma and chroma resolutions match? Sounds stupid to me for quite a few reasons. Besides, chroma is downsampled in a way that chroma and luma samples aren't taken from the same location (example (http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/dynimg/IC500902.png)).

If you don't have a 2160p screen, of course. The industry is already moving to 2160p 4:2:0, so it's not me "wanting" to make it mainstream. Nobody understands what 4:4:4 means, but they do 2160p. I'm not sure what the difference would be in data rate from 1080p 4:4:4, and 2160p 4:2:0, but with 2160p 4:2:0 at least you can get both, and the former you can even get without upgrading your display (not me though, I got a Kuro (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20822997#post20822997)).

[nevcairiel]

Like STaRGaZeR said, you can't just take the 4:2:0 chroma from 2160p, because its sampled at weird positions in the image, you could get a small chroma offset (by one pixel or so)
I suppose you could devise an algorithm to compensate for that, but meh.

[Reino]

Hello, would it be possible to support .pls streaming links that fit this profile? I'm not able to play this stream with LAV 0.50.5 and I've never tried to play this link before but it doesn't work with LAV yet it works with Mplayer and VLC. I'm a bit confused as to why it doesn't work since LAV seems to support VP6.A sample stream would be usefull.

[Pat357]

Also that whole YCbCr model could be replaced by YCgCo.

What would be the advantages from YCgCo compared to YCbCr ?

[Pat357]

Yes, but we are back at square one: chroma is still downsampled and quality is lost in the same proportion as in any other 4:2:0 media.

Sure, but what's the point? You want to make 2160p mainstream to downscale it back to 1080p so luma and chroma resolutions match? Sounds stupid to me for quite a few reasons. Besides, chroma is downscaled in a way that chroma and luma samples aren't taken from the same location (example (http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/dynimg/IC500902.png)).
It would be possible to down scale 2160p to 1080p with improved chroma (almost 4:4:4) by writing dedicated shaders to to the conversion.
It doesn't seem even to be hard to write the shader.
Whether this is a good solution just to get full chroma 1080p is another question.
Using 2160p would be at least a waste of bandwidth and storage capacity if all you need is 444 1080p.

1080p 420 -> 2160p 420 means about 4x more bandtwith (picture is about 4x "bigger")
1080p 420 -> 1080p 444 is about 2x more bandwith IIRC

[aufkrawall]

What would be the advantages from YCgCo compared to YCbCr ?
Maybe you could use a lower bitrate with YCgCo since there's no loss from RGB conversion.

If everything could be reinvented, why should someone choose YCbCr over YCgCo? :)

[Fadeout]

Anyone knows if chapter support has been added to the splitter at some point?

[Gaius]

Anyone knows if chapter support has been added to the splitter at some point?
Hasn't happened yet and doesn't look like it will happen for quite a while.

[STaRGaZeR]

If you don't have a 2160p screen, of course. The industry is already moving to 2160p 4:2:0, so it's not me "wanting" to make it mainstream. Nobody understands what 4:4:4 means, but they do 2160p. I'm not sure what the difference would be in data rate from 1080p 4:4:4, and 2160p 4:2:0, but with 2160p 4:2:0 at least you can get both, and the former you can even get without upgrading your display (not me though, I got a Kuro (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20822997#post20822997)).

The conversion you mention, while possible but with unknown results, is an horrible hack no matter how you look at it. In what kind of situation would you prefer hacky 1080p 4:4:4 from 2160p instead of that 2160p stream untouched? Are you planning to do that in order to use your current display instead of enjoying 2160p in all its glory?

Nice caps in that thread BTW, shows clearly the effects of subsampling on colored letters. I'm not sure what I prefer, the more but evenly distributed blurriness of 4:2:0 or the less pronounced but uneven blur of 4:2:2. One thing is certain, I hate both of them.

Whether this is a good solution just to get full chroma 1080p is another question.
Using 2160p would be at least a waste of bandwidth and storage capacity if all you need is 444 1080p.

Exactly my point. Given that you have a real 2160p source, the last thing I'd do is resize it to something smaller.

[Andy o]

Well, this got too OT, I'll just say that what I meant was not that I prefer 2160p, but that it probably would not be that bad given that we're apparently already on our way. Like I said, my display can't even do 4:4:4 (only in PC mode, which only gets 60Hz and almost no color/processing controls, and has a noticeably higher black level to boot). I have found that Kuro owners, good as that display may be, are a bit in denial about its shortcomings. The difference in not being able to display 4:4:4 is noticeable in real world content, like PS3 games (the screenshots there were taken from GT5).

[nevcairiel]

Anyone knows if chapter support has been added to the splitter at some point?

Chapters work just fine, and always have.
Any half-competent player will show you the list of chapters and you can skip around in the file using them.

[nx6]

I think he means ordered chapter (MKV segment linking) support. ;)

[nevcairiel]

I think he means ordered chapter (MKV segment linking) support. ;)

He asked for chapters, i answered for chapters.
Its as simple as that.

If someone doesn't know what he really wants, he shouldn't ask.

[wanezhiling]

http://pan.baidu.com/netdisk/singlepublic?fid=200312_182082153

nev, no audio with lav filters.

[Reino]

Nevcairiel, whenever I open a pls-file (linking to a nsv[vp6+mp3]-stream for instance) in MPC-HC, it always loads File Source (URL) (in combination with LAV Splitter), even when I block File Source (URL) and prefer LAV Source.
Since LAV Source is capable of handling the stream on its own, without File Source (URL) (works just fine in GraphStudioNext), can we say this is a MPC-HC issue?

[shadowdogg]

Hi,

[Managed to fix my problem with DTS-HD and TrueHD]

I have a new problem with Dolby Digital (it even works fine with DTS). It is only showing as PCM when I have had it enabled. Though it is probably doing the same anyway, I would still rather it said Dolby Digital on it as that is what the show is using.

Does anyone know what the problem could be? Cheers

Edit: Found out ac3filter was on my comp still doing it's thing. ffdshow must have overrode it previously. Wasn't even registered, just was in the syswow folder. Be gone satin!

[ajp_anton]

Personally I like the idea of 4:2:0. If you don't like what it does to some sharp edges, instead of doubling the bitrate with 4:4:4, wouldn't it be visually better to double the bitrate by using 4:2:0 at a higher resolution?
Assuming you don't go above what your display can show.

[STaRGaZeR]

instead of doubling the bitrate with 4:4:4

That only applies to uncompressed video.

[shadowdogg]

Does anyone know how to get dts express working? I want to bitstream everything else but decode (if needed) dts express so I can hear it. I have already got dtsencoderdll.dll from tmt5 in the same directory as lavaudio

[nevcairiel]

If you don't like what it does to some sharp edges, instead of doubling the bitrate with 4:4:4, wouldn't it be visually better to double the bitrate by using 4:2:0 at a higher resolution?
Assuming you don't go above what your display can show.

My display: 1080p
Blu-ray: 1080p 4:2:0

Your point being?

[aufkrawall]

CUVID HQ deinterlacing uses some kind of motion compensation deinterlacing algorithm, right?
Due to the high shader load, I suppose madVR does pretty much the same?
Are there any "real" visible differences between both? :)

[nevcairiel]

CUVID HQ deinterlacing uses some kind of motion compensation deinterlacing algorithm, right?
Due to the high shader load, I suppose madVR does pretty much the same?
Are there any "real" visible differences between both? :)

Its exactly the same deinterlacing.
Both methods ask the GPU to do deinterlacing, and it'll apply the algorithm it knows.

[aufkrawall]

Its exactly the same deinterlacing.
Both methods ask the GPU to do deinterlacing, and it'll apply the algorithm it knows.
That's interesting.
So, Nvidia, AMD and Intel have a dedicated function on the chip to do HQ deinterlacing?

Edit: Or at least in the driver.

[nevcairiel]

That's interesting.
So, Nvidia, AMD and Intel have a dedicated function on the chip to do HQ deinterlacing?

Its most likely implemented as a shader function controlled by the driver, or something like that. I have no idea how its exactly implemented, i just know that every vendor creates an algorithm for it thats used when you ask the GPU to do post-processing and apply deinterlacing.

[aufkrawall]

Its most likely implemented as a shader function controlled by the driver.
You were too fast. :D
But :thanks: .

Edit again: Is there a chance that quality differs between vendors?

[nevcairiel]

Of course quality is different between AMD, NVIDIA and Intel. Although different must not mean that its better or worse, possibly just different. Earlier generations of Intel GPUs had lower quality, but since SNB/IVB it has gotten better as well.

[aufkrawall]

I'm curios for QuickSync deinterlacing.
With 1080p VC-1 interlaced my GPU still has to switch to P0 state with shader deinterlacing, very annoying. :(
HQ deinterlacing via QS "for free" would really be a nice thing.
I really got exited about QS in general. :)

[nevcairiel]

If you play your movie with CUVID, it'll always go into P0 mode. Seems to be a limitation of the CUDA interface, it always forces performance mode to guarantee fast processing.

[aufkrawall]

If you play your movie with CUVID, it'll always go into P0 mode. Seems to be a limitation of the CUDA interface, it always forces performance mode to guarantee fast processing.
Regarding energy efficiency, CUVID really isn't the Holy Grail.
But it seems with newest Nvidia beta driver, NVAPI reports again GPU applications right so that the MDPS of Nvidia Inspector can be used again.
Not an issue at all with Kepler, but with OCed Fermi it really is a pain in..
If there isn't enough shader power in P8 state, it doesn't help at all of course.

That's why I'm hoping for QS deinterlacing.
Dedicated GPUs for video seem like a relict to me.