LAV Filters - DirectShow Media Splitter and Decoders

[madshi]

For pausing or seeking, the audio renderer could actually mitigate that by simply not closing the WASAPI device..
There it is, we need a new audio renderer... :p

(and no, just to avoid misunderstandings, I'm not going to write an audio renderer)

[pankov]

(and no, just to avoid misunderstandings, I'm not going to write an audio renderer)

Too late,
even if you deny it, you've already been assigned this task
:p
...
nev, you are the second member of the team, in case you didn't know it till now

;)

[nevcairiel]

I'll put it on the end of my list, which i'll probably manage to finish in 2020 or something.

[pankov]

:)
now, lets get serious.
Nev,
I'm using an Integra DTR-40.3 and I have huge delay in audio when both starting and resuming (after seek or pause) movies. By huge I mean something above 3 seconds.
How did you manage to trick your receiver in synching quicker?
If I remember correctly you are using ReClock too, righ? Are you using WASAPI? btw I just tried Sebastiii's advice and went back to directsound and now the delay after seek/pause is very low ... probably <0.5s.
If my setup is 5.1 do I actually lose much if I ditch WASAPI. (I think I can live with the fact that my receiver will not know if the source is actually stereo or 5.1)

[Thunderbolt8]

using the advanced subtitle mode, when the audio is german I only want subtitles to be displayed if they are flagged as forced. but with my subtitle line, they are also activated when not being flagged as forced:

ger:*|f *:eng *:*|d *:*|f

so whats wrong here?

[jmonier]

Sure its something NVIDIA would have to fix, however my whole point was that the handshake doesn't have to take 1-3 seconds, it can be done in 0.5, which makes the bug much less noticeable.

Slow HDMI handshakes on receivers is a rather annoying problem, and even if there is no silent stream bug, it will still annoy you when you play a 5.1 file and then switch to a stereo file - it has to handshake again (even worse, if that change occurs in the middle of playback - eg. in live tv thats quite common)

PS:
For pausing or seeking, the audio renderer could actually mitigate that by simply not closing the WASAPI device and send silence until playback resumes.

Are you using WASAPI Exclusive in Reclock? Unless you are, then my results are the same as yours (it's just that I want to use WASAPI which gives the worse delays) and my receiver is no different than yours (or any other) for HDMI handshaking.

Here in the US, I've never seen a change from 5.1 to stereo in the middle of playback (or, at least, it hasn't been noticeable). I agree that, if it occurred, and there was a delay, it would be a real nuisance. But, is there any evidence that it would occur with AMD? (They may have fixed it as well.)

I agree that it could be fixed in the audio renderer, but that would have to be Reclock for me and I don't think that is ever going to happen.

[jmonier]

:)
now, lets get serious.
Nev,
I'm using an Integra DTR-40.3 and I have huge delay in audio when both starting and resuming (after seek or pause) movies. By huge I mean something above 3 seconds.
How did you manage to trick your receiver in synching quicker?
If I remember correctly you are using ReClock too, righ? Are you using WASAPI? btw I just tried Sebastiii's advice and went back to directsound and now the delay after seek/pause is very low ... probably <0.5s.
If my setup is 5.1 do I actually lose much if I ditch WASAPI. (I think I can live with the fact that my receiver will not know if the source is actually stereo or 5.1)

Your results are exactly the same as mine with a Denon 3808. If you only want 5.1, I can't really argue convincingly for WASAPI exclusive. I've been using DirectSound for a week or two with the NVidia card and I haven't seen any serious problem. There is still a very noticeable delay on start of playback and if I've paused for a long period (more than a few seconds). I would think that's acceptable although I still like it better with AMD.

I still feel better bypassing the Windows mixer and having my receiver know the difference between stereo and other formats but I can't make a convincing argument for it.

[nevcairiel]

Are you using WASAPI Exclusive in Reclock? Unless you are, then my results are the same as yours (it's just that I want to use WASAPI which gives the worse delays) and my receiver is no different than yours (or any other) for HDMI handshaking

Yes i'm using ReClock and WASAPI exclusive.
I tried out another receiver a while back, and it had significantly longer handshake times.

[glorp]

using the advanced subtitle mode, when the audio is german I only want subtitles to be displayed if they are flagged as forced. but with my subtitle line, they are also activated when not being flagged as forced:

ger:*|f *:eng *:*|d *:*|f

so whats wrong here?

For one, the second pair in your string (*:eng) would turn on any eng subs present even when the language is German as long as there aren't any forced subs with German audio (any first pair match).

You need:
ger:*|f;ger: off; ...

Or possibly you mean:
ger:ger|f;ger: off; ...

[rica]

Guys, if we are talking about bitstreaming (undecoded) but not bitexact passthrough streaming (decoded to pcm, or unpacked pcm itself), why do you need to use Wasapi Exclusive?

Windows' mixer can not interfare compressed formats, so you can directly pass compressed audio using any renderer over SPDIF(for SD lossy formats) or HDMI(for HD lossless or lossy formats and SD lossy formats.) to your receiver to be decoded there.

Even you use ReClock as your default audio renderer on MPC-HC ( if you select "accept bitstream formats".)
In this case you may select "bitstream: DirectSound or WaveOut."
ReClock will use DirectSound or WaveOut. You may leave ReClock in his default config except "accept bitstream formats". nothing will change. It will bitstream over DirectSound or WaveOut.
Checkout inline config: you can not interfare anything since everything is grey while bitstreaming. (If you are bitexact streaming, you can and have to adjust inline config and have to use wasapi exclusive.)

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/395/reclockinlineatbitstream.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/reclockinlineatbitstream.png/)

see:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21200733&postcount=400

Even you use Direct Sound directly or over ReClock you will bitstream as is; i mean ReClock has no effect on Silence Stream Issue at all while bitstreaming.

But i must say this funny silent bug is directly related with nVidia's audioHD driver, nothing else.


_ _ _ _

[pankov]

rica,
I think most of the users that prefer ReClock do it for the ability to have better audio/video synchronization than bitstreaming.
In this case if we use DirectSound we loose the ability to distinguish between sources with different channels count
:(
I guess I might dig out my old AMD 5750 and give it a try now that madVR has deinterlacing.
I do like NVIDIA but this handshake issue is definitely bothering me ... not much but just enough to make me think about switching back to AMD/ATI.

I do have one more issue that's a bit off topic here but I believe with so much knowledge in you guys/gals someone might help.
very often (may be 7 out of 10 times) when I switch off (or even on) my projector or AV receiver my NVIDIA card doesn't detect it and leaves me with only one monitor. If this could be acceptable when turning off the equipment it's definitely a problem when I turn on everything and I see black (blue to be exact) screen on my PJ because the receiver is not getting any signal from the PC. Then I have to go in NV control panel and do "Rigorous Display Detection" and this brings back the secondary display. Often just turning off and back on the receiver a few times works too.
Does anybody have an idea what could be wrong? Could it be a cable issue (I have absolutely no problems while watching) or it's simply some kind of timing/negotiation issue between my video card and my receiver (Integra DTR-40.3)?

[jmonier]

Guys, if we are talking about bitstreaming (undecoded) but not bitexact passthrough streaming (decoded to pcm), why do you need to use Wasapi Exclusive?

We're NOT talking about bitstreaming. I've realized that bitstreaming would solve the speaker assignment problem but, like pankov and for the same reasons, I want to use Reclock to adjust playback.

Have you actually tried bitstream with a NVidia card? My guess is that the "silent stream" bug would be the same with bitstream as with WASAPI exclusive. After all, WASAPI exclusive, is just bitstreaming LPCM. I could be wrong, however.

[jmonier]

I guess I might dig out my old AMD 5750 and give it a try now that madVR has deinterlacing.
I do like NVIDIA but this handshake issue is definitely bothering me ... not much but just enough to make me think about switching back to AMD/ATI.

Make sure that your 5750 has 1gb of memory. madVR de-interlace seems to require 800mb+.

I got stung with that on a 4750 which only had 512mb.

[rica]

pankov, i can adjust refresh rate very precisely with custom resolution option of nVidia and i never need ReClock for very very precisely clock timing. And i guess we are talking about audio rendering ability of any audio renderer?

As for your unrelated issue, i may advise you to use two cables:
DVI to HDMI > your TV's HDMI input. (for video)
HDMI to HDMI > your AVR's HDMI input. (for audio)
(Two monitors.)

[pankov]

jmonier,
10x for the advice. I did notice that madVR uses a lot memory and hopefully my card was the 1GB version

rica,
I'm familiar with the custom resolution tricks but sadly even with all of them I can't get perfect playback. The closest I've got was 2-3 dropped frames per 2.5 hour movie and I do want to have 24 fps not 23.976 which is not possible without Reclock or many repeated frames.
Sadly I can't use your suggestion about the different cables since the PC has a LCD monitor connected too and it takes up the DVI output.
I do have an idea though - since I own an Z68 motherboard which has a HDMI output I plan to use it for the audio and connect the HDMI output of the video card directly to the projector.
Anyone tried this already?

[nevcairiel]

I would not recommend using a separate output for audio, it will come with quite some timing problems.

[rica]

@jmonier, Wasapi Exclusive is only meaningful for decoded streams or unpacked PCM. Btw i'm using currently an nVidio 550 Ti and silent stream bug is always existent with any renderer.

@pankov, you can still test with your existent HW: Why don't you unplug your LCD monitor and use this empty DVI out of your Ati to connect to your PJ?

[pankov]

nev,
wasn't this (having different video and audio devices) normal for the past few years (before both ATI and NVidia got audio devices onboard the video cards)?
what could go wrong? after all aren't they different devices just on one board? or you are saying that in HDMI they are somehow synchronized and the receiver benefits from it before sending the video to the projector?

rica,
I don't see your point. My problem is not that the AVR/PC is not seeing the projector but that the PC is not seeing the AVR and thus I have both no audio and video - the PC switches to single monitor mode and I loose the NVidia HDMI Audio device too.

[nevcairiel]

nev,
wasn't this (having different video and audio devices) normal for the past few years (before both ATI and NVidia got audio devices onboard the video cards)?
what could go wrong? after all aren't they different devices just on one board? or you are saying that in HDMI they are somehow synchronized and the receiver benefits from it before sending the video to the projector?


If you use anything but HDMI, there shouldn't be any problems, but with two separate HDMI links i would be careful.

Try it, if it works - great, but be careful. ;)
I fail to see the advantage right now, though.

[rica]

rica,
I don't see your point. My problem is not that the AVR/PC is not seeing the projector but that the PC is not seeing the AVR and thus I have both no audio and video - the PC switches to single monitor mode and I loose the NVidia HDMI Audio device too.

You really don't but it's my last attempt:

I say unplug your monitor and plug this emptied DVI to your PJ and connect with another HDMI to HDMI cable to your AVR over your Ati's HDMI out and give it a go again and check whether your PC recognizes your AVR this time or not?

[Qaq]

ATM, I use DVI > HDMI/TV and HDMI > HDMI/AVR setup. Had to play with Extended mode settings and now jitter in EVR CP looks very low (same as with single monitor setup). Its ATI 5450 and WinXP setup, BTW. Playback with madVR is also good (for 5450 at least). I use ReClock/KS and have no idea what "silent bug" means ))

[jmonier]

@jmonier, Wasapi Exclusive is only meaningful for decoded streams or unpacked PCM. Btw i'm using currently an nVidio 550 Ti and silent stream bug is always existent with any renderer.

Are you saying that the silent stream bug is there with bitstream as well as Wasapi Exclusive?

I've never tried bitstream but since it would (almost by definition) bypass the mixer, I was thinking that it would be very similar functionally to Wasapi Exclusive and thus might well have the same silent stream bug.

[rica]

Are you saying that the silent stream bug is there with bitstream as well as Wasapi Exclusive?


Yes, this is what i'm saying.

[nevcairiel]

Are you saying that the silent stream bug is there with bitstream as well as Wasapi Exclusive?


Actually, in bitstreaming it typically even takes longer, because most receivers take longer to figure out what signal they are getting then with pure PCM.
YMMV, of course.

[looney]

If i might ask why is LAV filters x86 only single threaded (0.37-0.39) and (x86-64 version is fully multithreaded. Win shows 24-25% of usage linearly, and cannot reach beyond it while there's frame drops --- in fact stills for few seconds in fact @2.5GHz AII-x4, while x86-64 version works flawlessly from 6%->36% on same cpu. Source is 1080p.

[nevcairiel]

I get full 100% CPU usage when benchmarking the x86 version on a quad-core, which means it uses multi-threading just fine.

Also, you seem to be repeating yourself.
Try to set the threads option to some specific value, something like 4 or 6, maybe Auto isn't working right.

[fastplayer]

When opening the LAV Splitter properties via MPC-HC's external filters, then switching to the "Input Formats" tab, the "Apply" button gets activated, even though I didn't change anything (just switched from one tab to another).
This is happening with the latest trunk build. Could this be a "side-effect" of f99914eac1d3 (http://code.google.com/p/lavfilters/source/detail?r=f99914eac1d389ca801038d5f2a6a6a4d1c8b994)?

Edit: Happens with "rundll32 LAVSplitter.ax,OpenConfiguration", too.

[nevcairiel]

This is happening with the latest trunk build. Could this be a "side-effect" of f99914eac1d3 (http://code.google.com/p/lavfilters/source/detail?r=f99914eac1d389ca801038d5f2a6a6a4d1c8b994)?

That change only affected the audio decoder, not the splitter. :)
I will look into it, but its only cosmetic. =P

[fastplayer]

That change only affected the audio decoder, not the splitter. :)
I definitely need glasses...
I will look into it, but its only cosmetic. =P
Another "odd" thing is that when you open LAV Splitter properties via rundll32 and exit the property window without making any changes (except switching to the "Input Formats" and back to "LAV Splitter" tab), it'll write its values to the registry. This doesn't happen with LAV Audio/Video.

[nevcairiel]

Another "odd" thing is that when you open LAV Splitter properties via rundll32 and exit the property window without making any changes (except switching to the "Input Formats" tab), it'll write its values to the registry. This doesn't happen with LAV Audio/Video.

If it activates the apply button, that means it'll write the settings on OK or Apply (should not do it with Cancel)

[fastplayer]

If it activates the apply button, that means it'll write the settings on OK or Apply (should not do it with Cancel)
I changed my original message slightly: If you switch back to the "LAV Splitter" tab and hit Cancel then, it will write the values to the registry.

Edit: You're too fast! Revision: dd943c716124 (http://code.google.com/p/lavfilters/source/detail?r=dd943c71612423709c0bff88153992be3e08137f)

:thanks:

[ney2x]

For those who encounters "TDR" and alot of dropped frames when using madvr v0.78

Link:
NVidia_VGA_Driver_v285.76_Win7_64_WHQL (ftp://61.14.154.72/pub/ASUS/misc/vga/NVidia_VGA_Driver_v28576_Win7_64.zip)

[madshi]

Hmmm... What is "TDR"? Those 285.76 drivers don't seem to be on NVidia's website yet. Are they better than the current WHQL drivers?

[nevcairiel]

TDR is "Timeout Detection & Recovery", which is a Windows function which trys to recover a hanging driver.

There are also new beta drivers, 285.79, which are available on geforce.com

[nevcairiel]

I've been trying to get DVD playback to work with LAV Video, but it appears the DVD Navigator will refuse to function properly when there is no subtitle renderer for the dvd subtitles. ffdshow & MPC-HCs MPEG-2 decoder all include dvd subtitle functionality.
My first idea was to just take the DVD subtitles, and just pass them through the filter, exposing them on the other side using the VobSub type (which is supported by DirectVobSub/MPC-HC internal - in contrast to the DVD Subpicture type).

Any other ideas i could pursue?

PS:
Another thing, using ffdshow raw on dvd playback breaks menu navigation. Even tried ffdshow + ffdshow raw, same issue - it just freezes when you try to interact with the menu.

[madshi]

What happens if you just pretend to handle the subtitles and silently drop them? Of course that's not a good solution, but maybe for a first test version? In the long run, simply forwarding them for other subtitle renderers (like VobSub) sound good to me, if that really works as expected.

[jmone]

as a MC user, just pass them on to J Rivers Sub Renderer.

[Midzuki]

Any other ideas i could pursue?

Yes. Make sure the FFmpeg team has already fixed the double-width subpics issue in Half-D1 VOBs :p

[pirlouy]

I do have an idea though - since I own an Z68 motherboard which has a HDMI output I plan to use it for the audio and connect the HDMI output of the video card directly to the projector.
Anyone tried this already?
Because of my pre-amp limitations, I do this:
- 1 HDMI from my ATI to my pre-amp
- 1 DVI from my ATI to my TV

I use dual screen in drivers, TV is the principal display, and the preamp is the second. I don't have any timing issues.

[nevcairiel]

Yes. Make sure the FFmpeg team has already fixed the double-width subpics issue in Half-D1 VOBs :p

I'm not talking about actually decoding the subtitles, all i planned was take the subtitle data, and output it untouched to the subtitle renderer (if any) - and if no-one wants it, just discard it.

[Superb]

Converting the subs "on the fly" to VobSub and passing them on to the next filter (e.g. the ISR in MPC-HC) sounds like a great plan. I hope you'll be able to implement such a feature.

[wo0zy]

Just Feedback, only working with PDVD.
No luck with LAV Audio/FFDShow/TMT5.

Hey Sebastiii,

I don't want to interrupt the discussion about DVD playback too much because it's a feature I've been hoping Nev would get around to :D but I just wanted to say that I seem to be able to bitstream DTS-HD from your sample using LAV audio. My Onkyo shows DTS-HD which is different to the lights that show for MA or plain old DTS.

I tested with both Sandy Bridge and a spare NVIDIA GT-430. Both worked.

Don't suppose a noob like me will be taken too seriously but just wanted to let you now.

Cheers,

Wo0zy

PS Hope I didn't break your chain of thought Nev. Awesome work!

[SeeMoreDigital]

... I just wanted to say that I seem to be able to bitstream DTS-HD from your sample using LAV audio. My Onkyo shows DTS-HD which is different to the lights that show for MA or plain old DTS.
I've been able to do this to, with DTS-HD MA, DTS-HD HR, Dolby Plus and Dolby TrueHD audio bit-streams.

That said, I am having difficulty configuring MPC to recognise and use LAVsplitter and LAV Audio Decoder all the time when playing for .M2TS contained files!

I've turned off all of MPC's "Source Filters" and "Transform Filters" but when I try playing "DTS-HD MA + AVC.M2TS files MPC keeps loading Microsofts DTV-DVD Audio Decoder :mad:

And when I play TrueHD + AVC.M2TS files MPC keeps loading MPC's AC3 Audio Decoder (low merit) :mad:


Cheers

[rica]

Because of my pre-amp limitations, I do this:
- 1 HDMI from my ATI to my pre-amp
- 1 DVI from my ATI to my TV

I use dual screen in drivers, TV is the principal display, and the preamp is the second. I don't have any timing issues.

OK, this is the right way to go.

[rica]

I've been able to do this to, with DTS-HD MA, DTS-HD HR, Dolby Plus and Dolby TrueHD audio bit-streams.

That said, I am having difficulty configuring MPC to recognise and use LAVsplitter and LAV Audio Decoder all the time when playing for .M2TS contained files!

I've turned off all of MPC's "Source Filters" and "Transform Filters" but when I try playing "DTS-HD MA + AVC.M2TS files MPC keeps loading Microsofts DTV-DVD Audio Decoder :mad:

And when I play TrueHD + AVC.M2TS files MPC keeps loading MPC's AC3 Audio Decoder (low merit) :mad:

Cheers

Are you sure you have selected LavAudio as "preferred" in external filters.
After disabling all internal filters, just select lavsplitter, lavaudio and lavvideo under external filters and make them "preferred" filters.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've done the following: -

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8388/lavfilters.png

The odd thing is, even though LAV video decoder is not enabled as a "preferred" filter it's always enabled (but not LAV audio decoder): -

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/373/mpcr.png

[rica]

You can not imagine the codec hell.
Pls just try to select lav audio as preferred if it is still not working select MS DTV-DVD Audio decoder and set it to "block".

[Midzuki]

I'm not talking about actually decoding the subtitles, all i planned was take the subtitle data, and output it untouched to the subtitle renderer (if any) - and if no-one wants it, just discard it.

My bad :o , that's what I get for drinking less than 750ml of coffee per day :stupid:

Converting the subs "on the fly" to VobSub and passing them on to the next filter (e.g. the ISR in MPC-HC) sounds like a great plan.

Yes, LAV Video + VSFilter is the way to go http://forum.doom9.org/images/icons/icon14.gif http://forum.doom9.org/images/icons/icon14.gif http://forum.doom9.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

[SeeMoreDigital]

You can not imagine the codec hell.
Pls just try to select lav audio as preferred if it is still not working select MS DTV-DVD Audio decoder and set it to "block".
Okay... I've done both those things and although Microsofts DTV-DVD Audio decoder no longer loads, it now displays this: -

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/5412/mpc2.png

I've "blocked" every AVI filter too. But god knows why anything "AVI" is even listed.... Grrrr!

[rica]

Please do me a favor and give it a go with GraphStudio or GraphEdit this time:

File Source (async) > Lav Splitter > Lav Video > EVR
> Lav Audio > Def. D.Sound

And pls. tell me the result.