ffdshow tryouts project: Discussion & Development

[madshi]

The two LCD TVs in my house (one Samsung, one JVC) both function as a computer monitor when I connect them with a VGA cable. The mode to view that input is even called "PC".
Hmmmm... As I said before, I'm not fully sure about VGA. It may be true, that the majority of flat panel TVs want computer levels when connected via VGA. Although my plasma doesn't. But what about projectors? Do they also usually expect computer levels via VGA? Projector owners here? And what about DVI?

BTW, you know, you can use a HDMI cable with DVI adapters or you can use a DVI cable with HDMI adapters. Or you can use a cable which has a DVI port at the one end and an HDMI port at the other end. The decisive factor will not be the cable type but probably the port type in the TV. You could even use a DVI cable and a DVI->VGA adapter. So again, it's the port used in the display/projector which decides, not the cable type.

[clsid]

HDMI is also used for connecting devices like HDD recorders and DVD players. So with that I would indeed not be surprised if it would default to using TV levels. It would also explain why that sometimes has an option to configure the levels (see mark's post). VGA/DVI is traditionally only used for PC monitors. Plasma TVs may behave differently than LCD, possibly because they generally have a relatively low native resolution. I don't have a projector, but I think those usually expect TV levels.

[honai]

My plasma TV allows both computer and video levels on the VGA input, and also through HDMI. For VGA the input type can be set in the menu. For HDMI (i.a. DVI, too) it simply accepts what is being fed into it.

[Mercury_22]

Which is factually totally incorrect, AFAIK.

My Samy says otherwise :eek:

[madshi]

My Samy says otherwise :eek:
With which connection type? HDMI?

[ash925]

Can somebody throw some light on the FAAN and other idct options in ffdshow tryouts and whether it is realtively better than the rest?Tried googling but nothing worthwhile came up.

[clsid]

idct = inverse dct

You need to use the IDCT that matches the DCT that was used during encoding.

[Mercury_22]

With which connection type? HDMI?

Yes !
Essentially Mark has give you a better / complete, description / answer which apply to my Samy too :)

I think if peoples TVs have the option for full range 0-255 then they should be hinted that this option might be available to them.

On my Samsung Series 9 the option is called "HDMI Black Level" and it can be set to Normal or Limited.

My perfect rgb conversion area would have a hint somewhere that if using a TV, to first check if it has the option to use "Full Range" or "Extended". If so set that to full range first.

THEN

Instruct them to use the image below to confirm which setting is correct for your display. When the correct setting is chosen, the image below should look like x y z and a b c should not be visible.... Something like this is what I think would be good.

That way they both get the benefits of full range for their pc usage, aswell as knowing based on the image test that they are setup correctly.

[madshi]

Yes !
Essentially Mark has give you a better / complete, description / answer which apply to my Samy too :)
So your Samy can do both video and computer levels. That's very nice. But it contradicts what you originally said:

"Usually A Flat Panel TV connected via a digital or VGA cable functions as a monitor."

If all TVs were like your Samy, then you should have said:

"Usually A Flat Panel TV connected via a digital or VGA cable can work as either a monitor or a TV, depending on how it's configured."

But not all TVs are like your Samy. Some do not have an option to switch between video and computer levels. And the important thing is which levels these displays expect on which input type.

[Mercury_22]

So your Samy can do both video and computer levels. That's very nice. But it contradicts what you originally said:

"Usually A Flat Panel TV connected via a digital or VGA cable functions as a monitor."

If all TVs were like your Samy, then you should have said:

"Usually A Flat Panel TV connected via a digital or VGA cable can work as either a monitor or a TV, depending on how it's configured."

But not all TVs are like your Samy. Some do not have an option to switch between video and computer levels. And the important thing is which levels these displays expect on which input type.

I thought that the term "USUALLY" was explanatory enough, but if you feel the need to make it more "CLEAR" it's fine with me :)
I was just trying to shorten the "Tooltip" :o

[madshi]

I thought that the term "USUALLY" was explanatory enough, but if you feel the need to make it more "CLEAR" it's fine with me :)
I was just trying to shorten the "Tooltip" :o
The point is that your shortened Tooltip is incorrect, at least when talking about HDMI. Maybe it's correct about DVI and/or VGA, but the jury is still out on that.

[Mercury_22]

The point is that your shortened Tooltip is incorrect, at least when talking about HDMI. Maybe it's correct about DVI and/or VGA, but the jury is still out on that.

OK YOU'RE RIGHT ! :)


P.S. But just to let you know many flat panel TVs, at least LCDs AFAIK, have a dedicated HDMI for PC connection !!! and when you connect to that HDMI (as manual tells you to ! :))(and rename it as PC in my case) you CAN'T even change from full range ! Tested on 3 LCDs :rolleyes: IF you're interested you can see my Samy's manual here Samsung LE32A656 (http://www.samsung.com/uk/support/download/supportDown.do?group=television&type=television&subtype=tftlcd&model_nm=LE32A656A1F&disp_nm=LE32A656&language=&cate_type=all&dType=D&mType=UM&vType=&prd_ia_cd=02010100&model_cd=&menu=download) :o

[madshi]

P.S. But just to let you know many flat panel TVs, at least LCDs AFAIK, have a dedicated HDMI for PC connection !!! and when you connect to that HDMI (as manual tells you to ! :))(and rename it as PC in my case) you CAN'T even change from full range !
That's interesting, didn't know that.

Argh, that complicates things. Because the typical end user will probably plug his HTPC into the "PC connection" labeled HDMI port...

So to recap:

(1) Some TVs want video levels via all HDMI ports and are not configurable.
(2) Some TVs want computer levels via all HDMI and are not configurable.
(3) Some TVs are fully adjustable.
(4) Some TVs want video levels via some HDMI ports and computer levels via other HDMI ports.

Argh, what a mess. Try to explain all that in a small hint!! :eek:

The decisive question is probably how many models are in each of the above groups. I don't really know about that. I still believe (1) is much more common than (2). I don't know how many models are in groups (3) and (4), though.

[Mercury_22]

That's interesting, didn't know that.

Argh, that complicates things. Because the typical end user will probably plug his HTPC into the "PC connection" labeled HDMI port...

So to recap:

(1) Some TVs want video levels via all HDMI ports and are not configurable.
(2) Some TVs want computer levels via all HDMI and are not configurable.
(3) Some TVs are fully adjustable.
(4) Some TVs want video levels via some HDMI ports and computer levels via other HDMI ports.

Argh, what a mess. Try to explain all that in a small hint!! :eek:

The decisive question is probably how many models are in each of the above groups. I don't really know about that. I still believe (1) is much more common than (2). I don't know how many models are in groups (3) and (4), though.

Yes this is more accurate !:)

And since I've recently studied the matter because I had to help somebody to chose / buy a new LCD I can say that the "recent" models of LCD from Samy Pany Philips and Sony all have the "full range" over HDMI connection :rolleyes:

I think it's safe to say that (3) and (4) refer to the same TVs cause even when connected on my dedicate HDMI jack if I DON'T EDIT / change the source to PC it acts as a normal HDMI ( I can change from full range) also I've never heard of (2) but...

So.... yeah "Try to explain all that in a small hint!!" :)

Maybe : "Your Flat Panel Tv may act as a monitor.See your display Manual"

[haruhiko_yamagata]

Shouldn't it be BT.709 for everything >1024 instead of >=1024? Width = 1024 is mostly used when encoding anamorphic PAL DVDs (resulting in 1024x576), which are BT.601 in origin.
Haali's video renderer use BT.709 for 1024.
The changelog (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/)says,
Added an automatic colorspace selection option to the renderer, it switches to BT.709 when video width is 1024 or more
Should I revert rev 2650?

[madshi]

I can say that the "recent" models of LCD from Samy Pany Philips and Sony all have the "full range" over HDMI connection
What do you mean? I'm not sure if you're saying that the Samy, Pany, Philips and Sony belong into group (2), (3) or (4)?

Haali's video renderer use BT.709 for 1024.
The changelog (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/)says,

Should I revert rev 2650?
Is that width number you're checking the number of encoded pixels or the number of pixels after anamorphic stretch? I've seen 1024 for anamorphic PAL DVDs. So if you look at the final decoded and aspect ratio corrected width, I'd say it must be bigger than 1024 to qualify for BT.709.

[shambles]

wouldn't it be better to use number of pixels instead of width for the colour system selection, since for 4/3 AR movies, 720p can be 960x720

1024x576 = 589824 px
960x720 = 691200 px
1280x528 = 675840 px

bt601 for <600k px and bt709 for >600k?


edit: hmm, even that would still be slightly problematic, since ITU spec dvds should be resized to 1047x576 (603072px), and really wide movies like ben hur would be ~1280x464 (593920px) for 720p

[madshi]

wouldn't it be better to use number of pixels instead of width for the colour system selection, since for 4/3 AR movies, 720p can be 960x720

1024x576 = 589824 px
960x720 = 691200 px
1280x528 = 675840 px

bt601 for <600k px and bt709 for >600k?
Sounds like a good suggestion to me.

[tetsuo55]

wouldn't it be better to use number of pixels instead of width for the colour system selection, since for 4/3 AR movies, 720p can be 960x720

1024x576 = 589824 px
960x720 = 691200 px
1280x528 = 675840 px

bt601 for <600k px and bt709 for >600k?

That's such a simple solution that i totally didn't think of it.

I did some random compares.

590k should be correct for 99% of all videos

EDIT:

WE can make the if statement a little more complex.

Count the pixels and check if W=1050+ or H=720+

If the pixels fall into SD and both W and H are false the result is SD
If the pixels fall into HD and both W and H are false the result is SD
If the pixels fall into HD and either W or H are true the result is HD
If the pixels fall into SD and either W or H are true the result is HD

[Mercury_22]

What do you mean? I'm not sure if you're saying that the Samy, Pany, Philips and Sony belong into group (2), (3) or (4)?


Is that width number you're checking the number of encoded pixels or the number of pixels after anamorphic stretch? I've seen 1024 for anamorphic PAL DVDs. So if you look at the final decoded and aspect ratio corrected width, I'd say it must be bigger than 1024 to qualify for BT.709.

Into group (3) ! (recent LCD models ! AFAIK) :rolleyes:

Also as I've said before in my experience cat (4) don't exist because even the dedicated HDMI jack CAN be reverted / used as configurable HDMI
To explain this better: FOR SAMY the dedicated HDMI port CAN act as "CONFIGURABLE" HDMI ( = you CAN change the level) UNLESS you select "PC" as the source for this port which makes it "UNCONFIGURABLE" (= CAN'T change the level) this I've tested on 3 different "recent" models of samy
For philips pany and sony I've just read about it on their sites and on http://www.avforums.com/index.php http://www.avsforum.com/ http://www.prad.de/en/index.html http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/ ... !

[shambles]

WE can make the if statement a little more complex.

Count the pixels and check if W=1050+ or H=720+

If the pixels fall into SD and both W and H are false the result is SD
If the pixels fall into HD and both W and H are false the result is SD
If the pixels fall into HD and either W or H are true the result is HD
If the pixels fall into SD and either W or H are true the result is HD

That's fantastic! :)

[madshi]

Count the pixels and check if W=1050+ or H=720+

If the pixels fall into SD and both W and H are false the result is SD
If the pixels fall into HD and both W and H are false the result is SD
If the pixels fall into HD and either W or H are true the result is HD
If the pixels fall into SD and either W or H are true the result is HD
The "if the pixels fall into XX" doesn't have any effect in this logic.

Into group (3) ! (recent LCD models ! AFAIK) :rolleyes:
That's very good. What is the default setting? Video or computer levels?

[tetsuo55]

The "if the pixels fall into XX" doesn't have any effect in this logic.

You're right!

That also means it's slightly less usefull than i though.

It needs a little bit more thinking.

[tetsuo55]

Fixed the HD/SD detection

If W =>1050 or H =>600 Use 709
If both are false Use 601

I'm not 100% convinced we should be using this though.

The physical limits of SD/ED displays are 768 x 576
This means that anything larger than this should have been encoded using 709
Starting from 800x600 all content should be sRGB/709

[haruhiko_yamagata]

Width >1024 or height >=720 then BT.709, else BT.601?

// EDIT oops, too late. height >= 600 looks OK.

[madshi]

I'm not 100% convinced we should be using this though.

The physical limits of SD/ED displays are 768 x 576
Actually SD Plasmas are usually 852x480 or 853x480, IIRC.

Width >1024 or height >=720 then BT.709, else BT.601?
Sounds good to me. You could probably also use "(width > 1024) || (height > 576)". This would put anamorphic PAL DVDs just below the HD borderline. Which would make sense, I think, since anamorphic PAL DVDs are the highest resolution SD sources I know.

[tetsuo55]

After what madshi said i did some googling:

PAL anamorphic = 1024x576
NTSC anamorphic = 853x480

So
If height is >=577 use 709, Else check width
If width is >=1025 use 709, Else use 601

I think this is a bit more efficient because width is only checked when needed, and height is the only 100% accurate SD/HD limit
Also all new content should be HD/709 so it makes sense to default to 709 and keep 601 as an else

[Mercury_22]

The "if the pixels fall into XX" doesn't have any effect in this logic.


That's very good. What is the default setting? Video or computer levels?

For ALL, including dedicated port when the selected source it's NOT "PC", (or NO source is selected, which is the default) : default = video levels

[STaRGaZeR]

Haali's video renderer use BT.709 for 1024.
The changelog (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/)says,

Should I revert rev 2650?

Definitely not. To get square pixels from an anamorphic PAL DVD source (BT.601) you have to resize to 1024x576, so that includes 1024 in BT.601. However I think madshi's solution is the best:

Sounds good to me. You could probably also use "(width > 1024) || (height > 576)". This would put anamorphic PAL DVDs just below the HD borderline. Which would make sense, I think, since anamorphic PAL DVDs are the highest resolution SD sources I know.

I've never seen SD sources greater than that either.

[leeperry]

I've never seen SD sources greater than that either.
I don't see the point to take upscales in account.
I'm the one who asked Haali to add this auto matrix stuff in HR, as it was too annoying to constantly change manually. ppl who upscale SD to 720p/1080p will end up with 709 in your ffdshow "auto" mode :o

you can't really simplify all that stuff, you'd be better off making a clear and simple explanation page on the official ffdshow help site IMHO

[clsid]

This algo should use the input resolution in ffdshow, not the resolution after resizing ;) So there should be no problem with upsizing.

[leeperry]

well I've never seen 1024*576 source files...so it's been encoded upscaled :D

and what about 1/4 HD files ? like 960*540 ? did the guy actually convert from 709 to 601 ? I doubt it..

maybe you could let the user specify what value he wants to use.

also maybe you could use yesgrey3's forthcoming REC601/709 matrix decoding code, as it appears to be more accurate than the ffdshow current code.

as I understand it, it's using 2 highly accurate generic LUT's, one for 601, one for 709.

[madshi]

For ALL, including dedicated port when the selected source it's NOT "PC", (or NO source is selected, which is the default) : default = video levels
Good. So if consumers leave the TV settings alone HDMI defaults to video levels. Have you also checked DVI and VGA? Is it the same for those?

well I've never seen 1024*576 source files...so it's been encoded upscaled :D
Answer this question, please: Which resolution do anamorphic PAL DVDs have? I hope you won't say 720x576, because if you actually played anamorphic PAL DVDs in 720x576, you'd have distorted aspect ratio.

[tetsuo55]

well I've never seen 1024*576 source files...so it's been encoded upscaled :D

and what about 1/4 HD files ? like 960*540 ? did the guy actually convert from 709 to 601 ? I doubt it..

maybe you could let the user specify what value he wants to use.

also maybe you could use yesgrey3's forthcoming REC601/709 matrix decoding code, as it appears to be more accurate than the ffdshow current code.

as I understand it, it's using 2 highly accurate generic LUT's, one for 601, one for 709.

There is a fine line between HD/SD

The problem we are facing is out of spec resolutions for HD.
Any file with a resolution equal to or lower than 1024x576 is SD and any player/display capable of using this resolution will display it as 601

So if the guy did not convert to 601 it means that his encode is out-of-spec and thus needs a manual touch.
Disable auto-detection and use manual settings

[leeperry]

Answer this question, please: Which resolution do anamorphic PAL DVDs have? I hope you won't say 720x576, because if you actually played anamorphic PAL DVDs in 720x576, you'd have distorted aspect ratio.
I simply upscale to 720p, then set the AR as required.

yet the input resolution "seen" by ffdshow will still be 720*576 from the VOB's, you have to upscale to 1024*576 afterwards.

so if you wanna take rescales in account, you can end up with 1024*576 xvid's in BT601 and 960*540 WMV/h264 in BT709 :o

just let the user choose what value he fancies IMHO, he will set it depending on his needs.

[clsid]

No no no. We use heuristics to automatically decide for the user. If a user thinks he knows better, then the options are available to force a setting.

[leeperry]

We use heuristics to automatically decide for the user. If a user thinks he knows better, then the options are available to force a setting.
anyway, proper matrix decoding only matters if your display is carefully calibrated...so the user that cares about that needs to know what he's doing, hence my tip to make a proper explanation page on the ffdshow help site.

some stock LCD monitors have really scary ΔE figures :D

look at the charts :
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/677-3/samsung-245b-1er-24-tn-vs-24-pva-mva.html

and their wide gamuts(at the bottom) :
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/677-4/samsung-245b-1er-24-tn-vs-24-pva-mva.html

you can decode HD in 601 or SD in 709 on these things, it don't matter :p

http://www.image-load.eu/out.php/t143177_barsmatrix.jpg (http://www.image-load.eu/out.php/i143177_barsmatrix.jpg)

[haruhiko_yamagata]

This algo should use the input resolution in ffdshow, not the resolution after resizing ;) So there should be no problem with upsizing.
This is correct. Upscaling does not confuse ffdshow as far as it is done in ffdshow (or its AviSynth filter) at the decoding time.

[Mercury_22]

Good. So if consumers leave the TV settings alone HDMI defaults to video levels. Have you also checked DVI and VGA? Is it the same for those?


I've tested just the HDMI :o but I don't think the tv can tell if you're using a HDMI adapter for the DVI ! As for the VGA maybe Clsid can tell us ?! :helpful:
( I have / using only HDMI cable :cool:)

Also I don't think people are connecting their PC to TV WITHOUT configuring the connection cause it's not the usual / default device / type of connection for a PC ! NO? :confused:

In my experiance it's quite the opposite :cool: most people even ( try to ) calibrate the tv...

My proposal it's to change the existing "Computer monitor" to "Computer monitor / Some NEW TVs"

[STaRGaZeR]

So if the guy did not convert to 601 it means that his encode is out-of-spec and thus needs a manual touch.
Disable auto-detection and use manual settings

Exactly. 1024x576 is the maximum "standard" resolution for SD video as we know of. If anybody has lower resolution videos using BT.709 that's not ffdshow's fault.

[leeperry]

well anyway 576p is Enhanced Definition, an in-between SD/HD....REC.601 indeed ;)

[honai]

A way for PS3 owners to determine if the LCD TV supports full-range RGB over HDMI can be found in the manual:

http://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/settings/rgbfullrange.html

If black appears dull on the screen when [Full] is selected, set this option to [Limited].

[Liisachan]

Hi, I just wanted to thank the devs and other people who are trying to improve color space things. I don't understand the theory but I like the new hq rgb conv. It might be just my imagination but it looks nicer~

Btw... in the past, DGIndex <= 1.4.9 used bt709 by default, when DVD doesn't define the matrix explicitly. Which might be spec-compliant, but of course bt601 is more likely to be the actual matrix for movies displayed as 640x480, right?

Because of this, I assume quite a few old movies (when encoded through RGB, VFAPI...) have slightly wrong colors (especially, red-ish colors are noticeably off-key). I myself did that mistake more than once and had to correct it later for example using AVS ConvertToYUY2(matrix="rec709"). Saying this is probably useless, as you can't tell programatically which video was encoded using which, properly or improperly. But anyway, for what it's worth, I think that unexpectedly many clips in the world might be encoded through bt709 improperly.

[Mercury_22]

Anyone tryed Intel's Parallel Studio (http://www.intel.com/cd/software/products/asmo-na/eng/399359.htm) ? Maybe we can gain some speed especially for the libavcodec.dll - VS2008sp1 (x64) ?! :confused:

Source http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/03/parallel_studio_beta/

[leeperry]

@Haruhiko : maybe you could remove dsp_vst.dll from the winamp2 plugin blacklist, because a lot of versions don't work at all...but this one works perfectly fine :
http://www.savioursofsoul.de/Christian/Programs/WinAmp_VST_Bridge.exe

I'm using it w/ this plugin w/o a itch :

http://www.crysonic.com/graphics/spectralivenxt_screenshot.jpg

just once in a while it kills MPC at opening, but you know that bug...basically ffdshow kills the DLL before closing it(same problem as w/ OzoneMP).

it even works w/ Effect Chainer, so you can chain as many DX/VST plugins as you'd like in ffdshow...too awesome :D

http://www.image-load.eu/out.php/i143204_plop11.png

it would be great if we could hide Effect Chainer's window so it never shows up...maybe ffdshow could kill it automatically ? that'd be so great :o

[mark0077]

Great to see the new ffdshow rgb conversion section. Its getting there.

Two questions for you guys

1) Is the new high quality yuy2 -> RGB32HQ coded into the latest builds yet?

2) Is there plans / any need to incorporate the two different Rec. 601's that are out there, and if not which one is being used. (I got the impression from previous discussions that there were two different Rec.601, one being something to do with European DVD's which would apply to myself)

I was under the impression there would be both 709, and the two different 601's listed in the new ffdshow options for completeness.

[yesgrey]

(I got the impression from previous discussions that there were two different Rec.601, one being something to do with European DVD's which would apply to myself)

No. There is only one Rec.601 matrix which applys to both PAL and NTSC dvds. The differences between PAL and NTSC are in the transfer functions and in the primaries, but none of these differences affect the YCbCr->RGB conversion.

[tetsuo55]

We could include the correct primaries for the following cases:

We have now got a 100% accurate SD/HD detection(Unless the file was encoded incorrectly, but that's what manual settings are for)
So all we would have to check is framerate:
25/50 PAL
30/60 NTSC
24 unknown (no change)
Other unknown (no change)

And for HD it would be sRGB for all framerates.

And for those HD cases with different primaries we have the manual settings.

------

The end user would have to choose output primaries.
Default would be sRGB/709 (monitors/HD displays)
But the user can choose whatever his display supports
NTSC/PAL/sRGB/Manually from calibration hardware

Ofcourse all of this should be based on 3D-luts (so we need basic ones on top of the per-user custom ones)

[clsid]

I made an interesting discovery with regard to the 64-bit build.

If I add "-mfpmath=387" to the compiler flags then libavcodec vorbis works again! It was broken before. That setting is used by default by GCC for 32-bit builds. For 64-bit builds GCC normally defaults to using -mfpmath=sse.
However it breaks WMA decoding. ffdshow just outputs silence, like it also already did for AMR audio.

[Taurus]

As a long time user of ffdshow, since when Milan Cutka was still around..
For the first time I found this most annoying behaviour in ffdshow.
My childrens PC's are mostly equipped with older hardware, Athlon XP 2200 and up.
Everytime I call up the video or audio properties page it takes about half a minute
until the windows load and the video and audio gets stuttering in the background.
So I did a little investigation. Every version of ffdshow before the 08.12.2008 is doing fine,
almost immediately the properties window pops up.
So ffdshow_rev2421_20081205_clsid.exe is the last good working.
ffdshow_rev2447_20081208_clsid.exe is the first one which shows the lags.
WinXP SP3 on three machines